EPTI wish they'd talked about the Colossus sometime. Right now it's pretty much just a placeholder.
Community Feedback Update - July 22 - Page 5
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
I wish they'd talked about the Colossus sometime. Right now it's pretty much just a placeholder. | ||
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feanaro
United States123 Posts
I'm not sure if separating pylon power and warpgate power is 100% good, but if they do it I think they also need to let nexii provide warpgate power (or at least provide it in conjuction w/ regular pylons) so that the expensive warpgate powering pylons don't become to vulnerable targets to drops/harass. This should also help with taking earlier 3rds. Offensive warp in nerf: As far as nerfing offensive warpgate rushes, this seems like it will only help with certain types of rushes like 4gates and 7gates. A 2base blink timing, for example, wouldn't be particularly weaker unless the warp in time was significantly increased, which just isn't practical if protoss is going to have a workable defense against drops. One thing that might work is increasing warp in time when warping in with a warp prism, but that might make protoss harass less viable, so I'm not really a fan of it. Zealot harass I think one of the main reasons that zealots tend to do game ending damage through harass, and also the reason that protoss has the best late game harass, isn't so much the strength of the zealot as it is the lack of defense from the other races. Terran in particular lack supply free vs ground static defense, and fixing that would make a lot more sense, especially if it had, say, an armory requirement so terran defense/bunker rushing doesn't get buffed. Zerg have more options since spines can work well in the late game if you have the economy for it, and before then you can sometimes use units to defend, like the 4 muta snipe squad. Solar's use of banelings was also cool, so perhaps zerg could experiment more with, say, lurkers to defend vulnerable expos. Zerg may still need more or more effective forms of counterplay vs warp prisms, but I'm not sure what. Last but not least a big thank you to blizzard for engaging the community so much. I'm looking forward to a long and productive beta. | ||
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TedCruz2016
Hong Kong271 Posts
On July 23 2015 12:55 eviltomahawk wrote: Oh man, I remember ideas about upgraded Pylons all the way during 2010. Warp-ins don't seem as big of an issue now as they did back then, but any idea that changes them for the better can only be good for the game. I wish they'd talked about the Colossus sometime. Right now it's pretty much just a placeholder. Colossus itself doesn't have to be changed. What it takes is somewhat a long-range single-target zero-damage disabling ability for T and Z like the lockdown in BW. | ||
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My_Fake_Plastic_Luv
United States257 Posts
However still not addressing main issue. The game is too complex for a normal player/ 12 year old. Right now they are pandering to pros, who if you haven't noticed are quitting in large numbers. Right now Bliz is trying to sell this game to the 22-27 year old crowd, which is a crowd that is always diminishing, due to getting gf, marriages, growing up, having stressful 8-5 job. Bliz needs to pander to 12 year-old crowd. Needs to say fuck these guys who have been playing 15 years. They old, pretty soon they quit, or get carpal tunnel from old wrists and quit. The need to say we need people with lots of time and expendable cash (which isn't going to gfs, babies, etc). We need people who influence pop culture, ie: not listening to Linkin Park or Stained or any nu-metal from early 2000s. 8 year old kids master chess. 12 year old kid should be able to get GM in SC2. Youth keep game alive. Example: baseball. Baseball is stupid and complex. If you not learn baseball as a kid, you don't play baseball now. You think baseball stupid. So if you not learn SC2 as kid, you're not going to play. So if noone taught their kids baseball, noone cares, baseball dies as sport. This means only youth can keep SC2 alive. Without kids playing game die in 5 years...this cuz all Korean pro about 20 years old. At 25 all skillz go. Look at MVP, Nestea, MC. | ||
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FaiFai
Peru53 Posts
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Parcelleus
Australia1662 Posts
On July 23 2015 10:18 Pontius Pirate wrote: They've stated that they do not recognize there being a problem with Gateway units not really being able to defend spread-out bases and the issue with the relationship of this with their weakness to compensate for their convenient reinforcement power, and then stated that the latter is a fully-intended design. Basically "it's not a bug, it's a feature", but in terms of design philosophy. And then the comment about Stalkers being used the most en masse in current matchups somehow meaning that they're in a good place right now. Mass blink Stalkers are used because they put the greatest amount of control into the Protoss player's hands, rather than risking Colossi against nearly undefendable abducts, or going Chargelot-Archon versus a Terran who can consistently retreat over their minefield. It's not a sign that Stalkers are in a good place, it's a sign that other compositions are in a very bad place, and too often, they make the player feel helpless to determine their own destiny. Their suggested solution of warp-in energy on upgraded pylons is inelegant, and will lead to offensive Protoss play becoming very vulnerable to a simple snipe of the forward pylon, without actually significantly reducing their offensive prowess. It just increases the risk of offensive play, rather than decreases the raw strength. If anything, we should be encouraging light offensive play that is intended to just do a little bit of damage, but not be able to attempt a killing blow. Lower risks, along with lower killing power should be the goal. This leads to more action during more parts of the game, which is a huge benefit to the spectator, and in my opinion, a better player experience. One of the better unbiased posts in this thread. Very astute observation and I agree completely. DK and the team still have a long way to go to fix SC2. | ||
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TedCruz2016
Hong Kong271 Posts
On July 23 2015 13:23 Parcelleus wrote: One of the better unbiased posts in this thread. Very astute observation and I agree completely. DK and the team still have a long way to go to fix SC2. They better get it done, for LotV is the final chapter of the Starcraft series. | ||
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FaiFai
Peru53 Posts
On July 23 2015 13:19 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Nice stuff from Bliz here. However still not addressing main issue. The game is too complex for a normal player/ 12 year old. Right now they are pandering to pros, who if you haven't noticed are quitting in large numbers. Right now Bliz is trying to sell this game to the 22-27 year old crowd, which is a crowd that is always diminishing, due to getting gf, marriages, growing up, having stressful 8-5 job. Bliz needs to pander to 12 year-old crowd. Needs to say fuck these guys who have been playing 15 years. They old, pretty soon they quit, or get carpal tunnel from old wrists and quit. The need to say we need people with lots of time and expendable cash (which isn't going to gfs, babies, etc). We need people who influence pop culture, ie: not listening to Linkin Park or Stained or any nu-metal from early 2000s. 8 year old kids master chess. 12 year old kid should be able to get GM in SC2. Youth keep game alive. Example: baseball. Baseball is stupid and complex. If you not learn baseball as a kid, you don't play baseball now. You think baseball stupid. So if you not learn SC2 as kid, you're not going to play. So if noone taught their kids baseball, noone cares, baseball dies as sport. This means only youth can keep SC2 alive. Without kids playing game die in 5 years...this cuz all Korean pro about 20 years old. At 25 all skillz go. Look at MVP, Nestea, MC. Im not sure about baseball example, bcoz is boring as a kid as a grow man, the only reason people go to see baseball is bcoz they do with beers, if beers are prohibited at the stadium, probably the few people that go to see, are going to sleep. And also i guess the kind of kids of 10 years ago, are not same kids of nowdays, and according with ur baseball example, kids of today prefer playing playstation that going to play baseball. I think if blizz want to capture kids, they should give tutorials with direct and specific information of how to play the game, for example how to drop, how to use properly the hotkeys, the importance of the economy and the scouting, inject methods, etc, kids of nowdays not like to investigate or study the game, if not give them the specific information of how works the game, they just gona do other thing, the main problem is the turorials of the game i guess, they are so basic, and most of them are about test-mistake, what makes very tedious and stresful for adult, and even more for a kid. | ||
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My_Fake_Plastic_Luv
United States257 Posts
Facts: forcefields wreck zerg when used in large quantities. Roach burrow move doesn't help that much. However w/o forcefields, toss lose natural, third, choke points to things like mass ling, mass roach spam. Or even the first wave of marines/marauders. Solution: Toss needs unit that is fast enough to keep up with speed lings, sort of like hellion. Forcefields need to cost more energy so they can't be spammed. | ||
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Gaara
Sweden9 Posts
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My_Fake_Plastic_Luv
United States257 Posts
On July 23 2015 13:35 FaiFai wrote: Im not sure about baseball example, bcoz is boring as a kid as a grow man, the only reason people go to see baseball is bcoz they do with beers, if beers are prohibited at the stadium, probably the few people that go to see, are going to sleep. And also i guess the kind of kids of 10 years ago, are not same kids of nowdays, and according with ur baseball example, kids of today prefer playing playstation that going to play baseball. I think if blizz want to capture kids, they should give tutorials with direct and specific information of how to play the game, for example how to drop, how to use properly the hotkeys, the importance of the economy and the scouting, inject methods, etc, kids of nowdays not like to investigate or study the game, if not give them the specific information of how works the game, they just gona do other thing, the main problem is the turorials of the game i guess, they are so basic, and most of them are about test-mistake, what makes very tedious and stresful for adult, and even more for a kid. What freaking kid watches tutorials. Main problem is game is fickle, complicated, not very social. chess. As for baseball is followed by a lot of f-ing people. Baseball pros make a lot of f-ing moneys. As kid, I not indoctrinated with baseball, thus I be one of people going to games for only beers plus friends. However I did play on a team when young. Thus I know about baseball. Thus if invited to play baseball now by friends, would play baseball. However if kids/people never understand SC2, what will give them incentive to play. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Force fields are still as boring and as frustrating as ever. Watching someone burrow move - however rare it is - under force fields is not exciting at all in my opinion. Warp gate was an interesting idea, however its current implementation is just bad. Reinforcements should be able to be intercepted. | ||
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ArcticBlue
2 Posts
Could there be a fundamentally distinct Protoss as one of the three pillars of a balanced, smooth while still interesting Starcraft? Likely. Is this truly a goal worth to realize? A valid answer to this question may consume enormous time and resources, and yet it may still not look good to everyone. Redesigning the core mechanism of Protoss has gains and loses. While the gains are still nebulous, the loses are more clear, being that a well-tested and familiar race since 2010 is gone. If revolutionary designs are implemented in the game officially, how will the community response to it by then? Positive response by majority at this moment cannot promise an identical future. And what about the reaction of progamers? Having an experimental design discussed and tested out is essentially different than having it implemented, especially for people making a life out of it. Also, a big but related question: how would remodeling a game inside out help promote SC2 in the global market? Here are some thoughts: 1) It seems fair for both parties while disruptor leaves its invulnerable state after the burst. Instead of using invulnerability, a temporal high speed state seems more acceptable and won't be too cost-effective. 2) There is definitely overlapping functionalities between zealot and adept. The roles zealots take in an army in HotS are clear: tanks when there are ranged damage dealers at the back; damage dealers while its upgrade is at advanced position; strikers that break the enemy's formation; and harass units in enemy's base. Except for the above roles, what does Blizzard expect adept to take? Meat shield and harass unit? Either adept is overshadowed by zealot, or zealot is overshadowed by adept. How about adept being an anti-air damage dealers while still being a specialist countering light units? Offering alternative choice to counter air units may help reducing massive use of stalkers. 3) I don't know where the concern of nerfing force field comes from. With sufficient micro and well positioning, zerg should find force field serves more as blockage against Protoss than walls against itself. With adjustment to adept for early game, we may see roach/ravager all-in since the pressure from adept is levitated. Corrosive bile plus borrow movement can make the Protoss regret ever warping in sentries. Placing Force Fields is one of the most distinguishable case that separates different levels of play skills. 4) Is massing Gateway units(stalkers plus sentries and templar in PvZ) a harmful play style for the game? Not really. In fact, I don't think this is even a valid question. SC2 is a strategic game, says David Kim as well. Because of this, massing Gateway units is only a strategic choice, and same with its countering, highly upgraded zerglings plus hydralisks. Protoss players choose this style is because its popularity, efficiency with micro and relatively lower economic burden. This style is also a development following the adjustment of swarm host. This choice is far from being IMBA(can be countered by viper and infestor) and need not to be the inducement of nerfing Gateway units/mechanism. 5) Warp-in mechanism is not as powerful as it may seem to some people. Like any mechanism, it is a blade with a sharp edge and a blunt edge. It is the essential way of reinforcing the frontline, defensing bases and harassing enemy bases, while this knife is blunt/this shield is fragile if warp-in units are scattered or the process is interrupted. It can be countered in a lot of ways. That is why as long as there is not a more dynamic and balanced mechanism to replace warp-in, I suggest it should remain intact. | ||
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FaiFai
Peru53 Posts
On July 23 2015 13:45 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: What freaking kid watches tutorials. Main problem is game is fickle, complicated, not very social. chess. As for baseball is followed by a lot of f-ing people. Baseball pros make a lot of f-ing moneys. As kid, I not indoctrinated with baseball, thus I be one of people going to games for only beers plus friends. However I did play on a team when young. Thus I know about baseball. Thus if invited to play baseball now by friends, would play baseball. However if kids/people never understand SC2, what will give them incentive to play. Every game have tutorials, and is for a reason, bcoz people saw them, specially the "kids" duhhh , XD, also is the first thing the user see after click install/ click play/ showing tutorial and in some cases you have to do it even you want skipped , and even more necessary in sc if you say that the game is so complicated. About your relation with baseball is not the same of the rest of people( i don nou what are discussing about baseball, lol), and also if you or your friends circle don see tutorials, doesnt mean other kids do. PD: I doubt u are kid, just bcoz kids don use words like "indoctrinated", lol... , but also doubt you are an adult for ur inmature, XD. | ||
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TedCruz2016
Hong Kong271 Posts
On July 23 2015 14:21 FaiFai wrote: Every game have tutorials, and is for a reason, bcoz people saw them, specially the "kids" duhhh , XD, also is the first thing the user see after click install/ click play/ showing tutorial and in some cases you have to do it even you want skipped , and even more necessary in sc if you say that the game is so complicated. About your relation with baseball is not the same of the rest of people( i don nou what are discussing about baseball, lol), and also if you or your friends circle don see tutorials, doesnt mean other kids do. PD: I doubt u are kid, just bcoz kids don use words like "indoctrinated", lol... , but also doubt you are an adult for ur inmature, XD. Don't underestimate the Sin of Pride and overestimate the kids' patience. They reckon they are smart enough to figure out how to play this game, so they skip the tutorials, then screw it up, lose their interest and walk away. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17737 Posts
On July 23 2015 13:19 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Nice stuff from Bliz here. However still not addressing main issue. The game is too complex for a normal player/ 12 year old. Right now they are pandering to pros, who if you haven't noticed are quitting in large numbers. Right now Bliz is trying to sell this game to the 22-27 year old crowd, which is a crowd that is always diminishing, due to getting gf, marriages, growing up, having stressful 8-5 job. Bliz needs to pander to 12 year-old crowd. Needs to say fuck these guys who have been playing 15 years. They old, pretty soon they quit, or get carpal tunnel from old wrists and quit. The need to say we need people with lots of time and expendable cash (which isn't going to gfs, babies, etc). We need people who influence pop culture, ie: not listening to Linkin Park or Stained or any nu-metal from early 2000s. 8 year old kids master chess. 12 year old kid should be able to get GM in SC2. Youth keep game alive. Example: baseball. Baseball is stupid and complex. If you not learn baseball as a kid, you don't play baseball now. You think baseball stupid. So if you not learn SC2 as kid, you're not going to play. So if noone taught their kids baseball, noone cares, baseball dies as sport. This means only youth can keep SC2 alive. Without kids playing game die in 5 years...this cuz all Korean pro about 20 years old. At 25 all skillz go. Look at MVP, Nestea, MC. 12 year old kids get the 'big army fighting big army experience' on their tablets with games like Boom Beach and Clash of Clans. 12 year olds no longer spends hours on end in front of a desktop PC with the frequency they did in 2000. back in 2000 the only place to watch giant armies fight was the desktop PC... improving technology has broken the desktop PCs stranglehold on this kind of experience. the RTS genre is in the same position the dot-eating-maze-game genre was in around 1982.. it don't matter how good the game or who its targeted towards ... less and less people will play it no matter what...this does not have to stop a small niche community from enjoying LotV though. Baseball is popular because it is fun to play and watch. Period.. end of story. Americans like lots of stops and starts in the action ... NFL and MLB are the 2 most popular sports... lots of stoppages and time to debate strategic decisions made in game. Hitting a baseball is as intense an experience in a sport that you can have. And as i type this the Oakland A's walk off the Blue Jays in extra innings... great stuff. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10819 Posts
Thank god for TLS. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On July 23 2015 14:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Baseball is popular because it is fun to play and watch. Period.. end of story. Americans like lots of stops and starts in the action ... NFL and MLB are the 2 most popular sports... lots of stoppages and time to debate strategic decisions made in game. Hitting a baseball is as intense an experience in a sport that you can have. And as i type this the Oakland A's walk off the Blue Jays in extra innings... great stuff. That's a pretty iffy metaphor to bring up, and an ironic one. Baseball as a major league sport has been hemorrhaging viewers for decades, and the average age of a baseball game goer is I believe in the upper 30s, the highest of any American major league sport. The teams have worse ticket sales, worse sponsorship offers, and few ideas on how to improve their prospects in the longterm future. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
The argument that pure gateway units form armies is only really true in PvZ - and that's only when forcefields in MASS support your army and you're able to constantly pressure or defend, keeping the zerg away from higher tech and rapid expanding. Against T and P, gateway units are trash past the early game. It's all about higher tech and using your gateway units as shields for it, as well as using them for harassment. With the pylon changes, no matter which one goes through, you'd immediately take away all counterattack potential protoss has. Do you really want terran/zerg to be able to suicide their armies into protoss economy and be perfectly fine because a protoss counterattack can't be reinforced? If anything that's far more detrimental to an RTS than anything protoss currently has. I'm all for changes to protoss, but they need to make sense and these don't in my opinion. Not at all. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17737 Posts
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/even-blizzard-isnt-sure-how-to-save-the-rts-genre-/1100-6423466/ "I wish I could say we knew what the magic bullet was," StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void Lead Producer Tim Morten said I think LotV is going to be a great game, but i'm not expecting it to break any sales records. | ||
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