EPTCommunity Feedback Update - July 22 - Page 12
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crown77
United States157 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
On July 25 2015 01:31 mishimaBeef wrote: don't focus on one aspect... there are many changes in Legacy. So simply ignore that one aspect and divert my attention to some other change... but don't focus much on that aspect either, just try to see the big picture? Well, I'm trying to see the forest through the trees... but every time I look at a tree, it is just a stump. Is a bunch of stumps a forest? When are we going to grow some new trees? Or maybe some balls to stand up to Blizzard. This Warpgate change is a horrendous idea. Can it work? Sure, the same way that the Warpgate nerf way back in patch 1.3.3 worked...it didn't kill the 4 Gate, but it did kill the 3 Gate Sentry Expand versus Zerg and opened the door for the 1-1-1 to work because Protoss couldn't punish teching Terrans early anymore. Eventually Blizzard balanced everything else out with a massive amount of changes, but they ignored good community ideas for months, only to end up implementing those same ideas months later which eventually led to the death of the 4 Gate in PvP in WOL (I watched every single PvP in the TSL4 Korean qualifiers, not a single 4 Gate succeeded). Honestly, if Blizzard wants to change how Warpgate functions, that is fine, it could make the game better. But you can't make these massive changes without rebalancing Protoss in general. And they've been totally incapable of balancing Protoss so far in the Beta. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On July 25 2015 03:34 Edowyth wrote: Gateway forces lack power in only one real department (damage). They can't fight for the mid-game because a small group (anywhere) is much less threatening than the opposing compositions' possible groupings (roach / hydra or lings or mutas or mmm). If gateway compositions can't present an equal threat to base-trade and / or destroy economy and / or kill the opponent's units then they'll never be able to fight on an even keel. ----------------- The Adept is the only place that protoss can realistically get a buff in consistent damage output. High templar, archons, and dark templar aren't supposed to be damage dealers? Hello? Can we fix the broken options first before we worry about new units? | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
Warpgate warpin time a function of distance from the nearest Nexus. Tackling the crux of Protoss production/unit balance. This is what I think is a fair compromise that keeps Protoss identity intact. Sentry FFs now 250hp/1 armor. Sentry 75 gas. Another fair compromise, FFs would help Protoss against Liberator and Lurker. MsC loses PO, gains anti-building spell PO. Gateway needs to be good enough without PO. Can now help enable more action on the map. Adept has new upgrade to attack air. Convert some +light to base damage. It was always meant to be a generalist to relieve some of the burden of the Stalker, Mutas already destroy Protoss so why are we so resistant to having Adepts help with that? Zealot gets Adept's shield upgrade. Zealot Linear Burst. Zealot becoming the tank to distinguish itself from the Adept. Linear Burst: Can dash in the direction you're facing, ignoring debuffs. Good for both offense and retreat. Let it smart cast so clumps don't all go to one point. Same CD. Colossus Regain the range, keep the DPS nerf. HT more maneuverable. EMP has little counterplay to it, since it's this unavoidable instant-damage spell. EMP should be reworked to be energy hadouken like Hiden's Sentry spell but on Ghost. Stalker +2 attack per upgrade. Their dps density needs to compete as the game goes on. DT Blink WoL Protoss campaign already figured this out. Can Chrono Nexuses. Chronoboost duration increased. Chronoboost is the weakest macrobooster by magnitude. All its X factor stuff is balanced by tech timings, which was nerfed relative to economy by advancing the worker start. The gimmicky instability we see is because the macro scaling is too different between the races, so of course the Protoss is forced to behave one way or the other. DK, your Zealot and Zergling comparison is incomplete. You must look at every phase of the game. Wall Phase: Zealots cannot contest control. Cybercore Phase: Zerglings can respond to pressure and deflect control. Runby Phase: Instant death for Protoss if wall is compromised. Warp Phase: Zealots can snipe stuff like you say. Zerglings can drop. Runby+ Phase: Bigger runbys for more instant deaths. Big ball phase: Zealots are Krillin. Zergling great sweepers during the remax. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On July 25 2015 13:47 crown77 wrote: when are we going to get cyclone patch... its too good vs fast expanders and too shitty against air... its the last thing mech needs in TvP Why does the cyclone need to dominate air? You have the Thor, liberator, vikings, and uhh marines. | ||
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KatatoniK
United Kingdom978 Posts
You change warp-in mechanics and buff lings Z can just happily 3 hatch before pool into mass speedling in PvZ because P can't punish the greed effectively and from there Z is just going to throw lings at the P who can't keep up with the production. | ||
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o3.power91
Bahrain5288 Posts
I've mentioned before when LotV was announced that I feel Zerg and Terran look more appealing to play than Protoss in our own expansion and I'm disappointed to see that hasn't changed. As a returning player who hasn't played much since early HotS, it's demoralizing that so little is being added to Protoss so far and so much is being taken away in comparison to Zerg and Terran. I agree that radical change is needed for the game, and I like the general direction the game is heading. I just don't like what it is doing to Protoss. I understand most of the changes are for the sake of balance, but as much as I want to play a balanced game and to play a balanced Protoss race, I want to play a FUN game with my favorite race. I don't care too much about most of the numbers as those can be changed with hotfixes; I care about having more enjoyable FEATURES to make the race and, therefore the game, interesting. Sorry if I'm ranting, but I wanted to state this point amidst all the complaints about Protoss being "too weak" or "too strong" | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
On July 27 2015 00:53 Little-Chimp wrote: Why does the cyclone need to dominate air? You have the Thor, liberator, vikings, and uhh marines. Maybe he means early game - it would surely help with those Adept rushes that get followed by Oracles once all your marines are dead. Mech players keep asking for Cyclone anti-air from the off so that they don't need to go Eng Bay, Turret(s) just to deal with Oracles. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
For the record, I still support the idea of making gateways produce faster while warpgates have a higher cooldown. Logically, this makes sense and requires fairly little rebalancing (just lower the production rates by a hair for gateways while giving warp gates an extra cooldown of ~10 seconds per unit and perhaps change the transformation time). It doesn't require any forced interaction in the game, and gives defender's advantage a strong buff while severely cutting the power of continued warpin aggression. At the very least, I'd like to see it tried and have significant amount of data collected before we write it off as "just a community nag". | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
Zealots should deal like a 0.5s stun after the initial charge. Yeah like spiritbreaker | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On July 24 2015 19:52 Salteador Neo wrote: Completely agree with this. Good stuff :D Might even try to give my proposals later, maybe some numbers too? Sentry is fine IMO. Blizz won't remove FF ever, maybe nerf it. I'm ok with it either way. Anyway if FF becomes weak then people will move on to hate on the other strong abilites like blink or storm (have heard "storm op" since 1999). Ok here's my terrible atempt at helping gateway units  , of course numbers might be totally broken and could be tweaked after testing. With the offensive warp-in nerf, these might be ok:[b]Zealot +20hp +10shields (zealot really needs to be the tank imo) so it would be 120hp 60sh. Profits more from armor upgrade. The new speed upgrade makes them slightly slower than stimmed bio and immune to concussive shells, charge removed. -1 damage (x2) serious damage nerf tho :/ Adept The new upgrade adds 30 shields, not 50. -1 range +2 damage against everything, -2 bonus against light. From 13+10 to 15+8. Makes it a bit more generalist, while still a good bonus vs light. New upgrade gives +1 range. Stalker -20hp +10 shields. Small nerf to the hp because it's a bit too tanky for a fast generalist unit with blink. Rewards good blink micro but gets less profit from the armor upgrade. +1 damage against all, -1 bonus against armored. Blink upgrade takes 30 more seconds to research. New upgrade gives +1 range. New upgrades: "Body enhancement" and "Ranged attack enhancement" (or some epic protoss name you come up with) Body enhancement: Basically a combination of Zealot speed upgrade and Adept +30 shield upgrade. Sounds a bit wonky but the idea is that it buffs the "tank "(zealot) and makes the adept more tanky too. 250/250 cost at cyber core. Long time research. It is the two combined because there would be too many upgrades for gateway units otherwise, really. Ranged attack enhancement: This gives +1 range to both adepts and stalkers. Adepts would need the proposed -1 native range, but stalkers would actually become long range with this. 200/200 cost, at twilight council. Not too long time research. Considering it's on the same building as blink, it should not be that much of an issue (I hope). It's probably a "must get" upgrade just like stim or the old dragoon range upgrade. Edit: changed a couple numbers. Adepts really need to 2shot workers imo. | ||
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crown77
United States157 Posts
On July 27 2015 10:24 DeadByDawn wrote: Maybe he means early game - it would surely help with those Adept rushes that get followed by Oracles once all your marines are dead. Mech players keep asking for Cyclone anti-air from the off so that they don't need to go Eng Bay, Turret(s) just to deal with Oracles. I dont know what race u play Little-Chimp but I play T and I played T literally since BW. I have been trying to make mech work since wings.... finally lotv provides terrans with the tools to do so... unfortunately mech does not have the anti air to hold off a simple oracle.... or the strength to pressure a fast expanding protoss.... if instead of investing money into ebay turrets marines and vikings... to simply not lose 12 workers to an oracle would give mech the ability to start playing around with some of the BW builds we loved... factory expand... 2 factory aggression.... I would be so stoked if I could do a 4 - 6 factory timing attack like we could in the good old BW day... mech is finally mobile and has the ability to move out on the map before all bases are mined out.... the only thing we need is to not die to ridiculous early game flying units.... David Kim said in his community feedback July 10 post that they will let the cyclone shoot up without an upgrade as soon as it comes out of the factory (upgrades to make it better) but the point is Terran's now have reliable anti air on tier 2 and that will completely change mech for the better making it more mobile and less rock paper scissory across the board in all three matchups but particularly TvP mech. David Kim please update the next balance patch! | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On July 23 2015 11:38 JackONeill wrote: I am glad the Blizzard team is really trying to redefine protoss. Disruptor is still terrible and gimmicky, and the design of the unit must be changed. About pylones, I very much like the first idea, the second one seems gimmicky, again. That being said, I wanna pinpoint the most problematic point I see here : "It’s very common to see small groups of Zealots harass and deal high or even game ending damage. Compare this to other races core units - How often do we see Zerglings doing this? Not as often. Which is why we’re also trying out changes to buff Zergling harassment in Legacy of the Void." NOOOOOOOOO. GOD PLEASE NO. Just look at hots pro games ! Harass, runbies, counter play, drops are already so powerfull ! You don't need to improve harassment. Starcraft is not only about high mobility units killing defenseless workers until one of the players doesn't have any more ressources : it's also about actual armies fighting each other ! The deathball aspect of protoss is being toned down in a good way I feel, so WHYYYY. Look at nowadays HOTS TvT : doom drops everywhere. Impossibility to early expand since it dies to gaz first builds. In ZvT, zergling runbies and counterplay is already very core. Same thing for ZvZ, with roaches, in a way. So please, fix the structural flaws of protoss without making SC2 a game where defensive play just isn't possible anymore : I'm not a fan of defensive play, but I'm not a fan either of TvT where both players are going gaz first, to ultimately end up in a situation of base trade since both their agressions are too strong for the defense they each managed to put up. About zealot strength as a harass unit : protoss already has the best "right clic" harass in the late game. TvP late game is avoided by pro terrans, because the protoss will just split templars on the map while warping massive rounds of zealots right clicked to a base when the terran moves out. Then the terran has to deal with the zealots, using APM and multi taking, while not being able to defend his army from random storms. In PvZ it's also the case, how many games have I seen a bunch of 10 zealots killing the hive forcing the zerg to cross the map with his remaining vipers. So no, zealot harass DOESN'T NEED A BUFF. You realize that DK is saying zealots are GOOD at harass already...and that Blizzard decided to buff the ZERGLING in the lategame with a true adrenal so that they could be good at harass too? He is NOT saying they want to buff zealots more... For heaven's sake, Zerg has needed a true adrenal for a long time. Now, finally, we can use zergling based armies in the lategame and stay baneling free. On another note? Has anyone noticed that the hotkey priorities in LOTV are super twitchy? As in, you can press a hotkey once while spamming in the early game and accidently jump to a scouting overlord when you just meant to tap it. Or a hatchery...etc. I have reported this on BNET but few people have responded. Few people seem to notice it, it seems, unless they spam camera hotkeys along with their normal control groups. I really wish the hotkey "jump" priority would be reverted to HOTS. | ||
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crown77
United States157 Posts
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On July 27 2015 11:06 SC2John wrote: For the record, I still support the idea of making gateways produce faster while warpgates have a higher cooldown. Logically, this makes sense and requires fairly little rebalancing (just lower the production rates by a hair for gateways while giving warp gates an extra cooldown of ~10 seconds per unit and perhaps change the transformation time). It doesn't require any forced interaction in the game, and gives defender's advantage a strong buff while severely cutting the power of continued warpin aggression. At the very least, I'd like to see it tried and have significant amount of data collected before we write it off as "just a community nag". I really like this idea. Making choices to stay close to home while massing units and then slow production by changing the mode of your gates and reenforcing across the map could create many cool and different subtle styles of play (or so I imagine). These kind of changes are the perfect changes imo. It would be very simple to implement and test this, and it leaves lots of room for creativity. Simple change - leads to - diversity in strategies. | ||
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TedCruz2016
Hong Kong271 Posts
On July 28 2015 12:51 ShambhalaWar wrote: I really like this idea. Making choices to stay close to home while massing units and then slow production by changing the mode of your gates and reenforcing across the map could create many cool and different subtle styles of play (or so I imagine). These kind of changes are the perfect changes imo. It would be very simple to implement and test this, and it leaves lots of room for creativity. Simple change - leads to - diversity in strategies. I like that idea a lot as well, but I can't say the same about David Kim. When there occurs a problem, he always gives hot fixes other than a thorough cure. In this case, his idea is to delay the timing of the first wave of warp-in units rather than a longer cooldown of the warpgate. Does he think that doing so would make the protoss salt lose its flavor? | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On July 28 2015 13:30 TedCruz2016 wrote: I like that idea a lot as well, but I can't say the same about David Kim. When there occurs a problem, he always gives hot fixes other than a thorough cure. In this case, his idea is to delay the timing of the first wave of warp-in units rather than a longer cooldown of the warpgate. Does he think that doing so would make the protoss salt lose its flavor? It's true Protoss = salt in LOTV 0_0 | ||
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TedCruz2016
Hong Kong271 Posts
That was but an old biblical saying which I used to describe P's unique way of unit production through the warpgate. The idea of that is really creative and it has become somewhat a racial identity that makes Protoss Protoss. If the cooldown becomes longer and subsequently results in a lower army supply than the enemy's, it may be in danger of being ditched as players would rather use gateway all the time to build a deathball, then P would be producing all units from production facilities like T does. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On July 28 2015 21:52 Big J wrote: Not sure where to post this. Is anybody else under the impression that air units clump a lot harder (since the last patch?). They fixed something with the attacks and that feels smoother, but it also feels like they played with the separation radius and I really don't like it. Yeah i think this was the way they fixed the moving shot problem. Is there a specific reason you don't like it? I only played with mutas so far though, was fine imo | ||
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