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[B]On July 24 2015 19:22 Hider wrote:
Zealot
-Less DPS more tanky
- Faster (no charge, just faster movement speed).
The Zealot will then be the meatshield unit and it will be much harder to kite it. It will, however, be quite bad without any ranged DPS support.
Adept
- Slightly less tanky
- More DPS
(I also would like to see the shade ability being used a ton more. Like I imagine it with 3-5 second cooldown and duration, but that's more of a micro thing than a role-thing).
Stalker
- Less tanky.
- More DPS.
- I also wouldn't mind to see blink getting nerfed as blink can be very snowbally which makes it harder to buff a stalker warpgate composition. Late game, however, Stalkers could get a second upgrade to either blink or its core stats.
Completely agree with this. Good stuff :D Might even try to give my proposals later, maybe some numbers too?
Sentry is fine IMO. Blizz won't remove FF ever, maybe nerf it. I'm ok with it either way. Anyway if FF becomes weak then people will move on to hate on the other strong abilites like blink or storm (have heard "storm op" since 1999).
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Sentry is fine IMO. Blizz won't remove FF ever, maybe nerf it
If Sentry is fine, then why do so many people dislike it? Based on the feedback, it dosn't seem that people are just satified with giving this unit more counterplay (in some situations). Instead, it seems that the unit is just generally disliked.
Anyway if FF becomes weak then people will move on to hate on the other strong abilites like blink or storm (have heard "storm op" since 1999).
Still a concern, because I don't think abilities should be weak just because they have bad implications for the game if they are strong. I much prefer abilities that feel impactful, has counterplay while being forgiving in the sense that you are not overreliant on using them well.
Even if Forcefields gets more counterplay it will still feel unforgiving, and if gets "too" much counterplay, then it will probably rarely be used.
Thus, my philosophy is to make abilities that feel very rewarding when you use them properly, but at the same time do not have any unintended/negative consequences for the gameplay.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
If you remove charge you have to remove concussive shells and it has to be mentioned, even zealots with charge without the "free" hit on the charge are useless against CS ><
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On July 24 2015 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:
If you remove charge you have to remove concussive shells and it has to be mentioned, even zealots with charge without the "free" hit on the charge are useless against CS ><
Yeh probably should have been mentioned becasue I do ineed want it gone.
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Very very happy with this post. It shows that they're listening to the community. Like it alot.
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On July 24 2015 20:17 Hider wrote:If Sentry is fine, then why do so many people dislike it? Based on the feedback, it dosn't seem that people are just satified with giving this unit more counterplay (in some situations). Instead, it seems that the unit is just generally disliked.
It only seems that way because the people who don't like FFs are more vocal than those who like it. Myself and many others think it is a beatiful ability with a tremendous skill cap and lots of counterplay.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 24 2015 22:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 20:17 Hider wrote:Sentry is fine IMO. Blizz won't remove FF ever, maybe nerf it If Sentry is fine, then why do so many people dislike it? Based on the feedback, it dosn't seem that people are just satified with giving this unit more counterplay (in some situations). Instead, it seems that the unit is just generally disliked. It only seems that way because the people who don't like FFs are more vocal than those who like it. Myself and many others think it is a beatiful ability with a tremendous skill cap and lots of counterplay.
Force field is wonderful skill in hands of Parting. It is a pure mastery of which no other Protoss is able(not even Jest as I saw yesterday ><). But then again - because of balancing around FF you HAVE to have a ramp wide exactly on 1 force field, otherwise problems for PvX. Which is kinda dumb.
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On July 24 2015 22:19 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 22:13 Charoisaur wrote:On July 24 2015 20:17 Hider wrote:Sentry is fine IMO. Blizz won't remove FF ever, maybe nerf it If Sentry is fine, then why do so many people dislike it? Based on the feedback, it dosn't seem that people are just satified with giving this unit more counterplay (in some situations). Instead, it seems that the unit is just generally disliked. It only seems that way because the people who don't like FFs are more vocal than those who like it. Myself and many others think it is a beatiful ability with a tremendous skill cap and lots of counterplay. Force field is wonderful skill in hands of Parting. It is a pure mastery of which no other Protoss is able(not even Jest as I saw yesterday ><). But then again - because of balancing around FF you HAVE to have a ramp wide exactly on 1 force field, otherwise problems for PvX. Which is kinda dumb.
That's not only because of protoss. Terran also needs to be able to wall of with a barrack and two depots or they'd lose every game vs zerg.
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On July 24 2015 22:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 20:17 Hider wrote:Sentry is fine IMO. Blizz won't remove FF ever, maybe nerf it If Sentry is fine, then why do so many people dislike it? Based on the feedback, it dosn't seem that people are just satified with giving this unit more counterplay (in some situations). Instead, it seems that the unit is just generally disliked. It only seems that way because the people who don't like FFs are more vocal than those who like it. Myself and many others think it is a beatiful ability with a tremendous skill cap and lots of counterplay.
You could apply that logic to everything. E.g. people actually like Swarm Hosts, those who liked it just weren't so vocal. I think its pretty safe to say that Forcefield is one of the least enjoyed abilities in Starcraft.
Terran also needs to be able to wall of with a barrack and two depots or they'd lose every game vs zerg.
That's pretty easy to do though. Forcefields are much more unforgiving.
Further, an issue with Forcefields is how the game becomes balanced around protoss fighting in narrow passages. They can never take a straight up engagement in an open field (in the midgame) as Forcefield loses its value.
This helps support a dynamic where they will turtle till late game or go for a big all in.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 24 2015 22:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 22:19 deacon.frost wrote:On July 24 2015 22:13 Charoisaur wrote:On July 24 2015 20:17 Hider wrote:Sentry is fine IMO. Blizz won't remove FF ever, maybe nerf it If Sentry is fine, then why do so many people dislike it? Based on the feedback, it dosn't seem that people are just satified with giving this unit more counterplay (in some situations). Instead, it seems that the unit is just generally disliked. It only seems that way because the people who don't like FFs are more vocal than those who like it. Myself and many others think it is a beatiful ability with a tremendous skill cap and lots of counterplay. Force field is wonderful skill in hands of Parting. It is a pure mastery of which no other Protoss is able(not even Jest as I saw yesterday ><). But then again - because of balancing around FF you HAVE to have a ramp wide exactly on 1 force field, otherwise problems for PvX. Which is kinda dumb. That's not only because of protoss. Terran also needs to be able to wall of with a barrack and two depots or they'd lose every game vs zerg.
It is not that big since some Terrans block it with CC and some ebay shenanigans when SHTF  Also note that you cannot drop 2 supply depots and barracks in the enemy base and block him off
(edit> I play Protoss BTW, FF is a really nice skill but right now the whole game is balanced around it and that's what I do not like)
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the narrow passage & forcefield argument is a bit over simplified, it's not even just forcefields but the entire protoss race with early forcefield, and mid colo or templar and in late both colo and templar.
and that all just because gateway units aren't a fighting force on their own thanks to warpgate.
it keeps striking me as funny that their desire to have the races be distinguishable leads to the most monotome and indistinguishable styles of play.
coming back to choke points outside of protoss match-ups, pathing is a bit to smart to have defensive styles work without chokepoints, which is a bit sad, but is still somewhat easily adjustable with maps without fucking over balance one way or another, as this tends to be not as hit or miss as protoss, partly because Z and T don't have splash that is both as long range (banelings/mines), or completely immobile (siegetanks, and soon lurkers in LotV)
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Disruptor needs a big redesign in my opinion. First of all I hate the idea of invulnerability. Instead of making them invulnerable, maybe give them a temporary large bonus to shields and shield armor when activated, like +200 shields +3 shield armor? This bonus could remain in effect for a second or two after they detonate, giving them a better chance to escape. I guess the problem here is that unless you make a protoss unit literally invulnerable, it is easily countered by cancer mines.
I also hate that they can't be disabled by force fields, fungal, graviton beam, etc. This takes away a cool possibility for counterplay. I'd like to see it possible to disable them, and in compensation I'd like it if there's a "detonate" button for them similar to banelings.
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On July 24 2015 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:
If you remove charge you have to remove concussive shells and it has to be mentioned, even zealots with charge without the "free" hit on the charge are useless against CS ><
You can't remove concussive shells or Stalkers could kite all day versus Marauders early in the game.
In general, I think these changes are idiotic. There are far more elegant solutions to Warp Gate than the ones Blizzard is proposing.
Warpgate provides Protoss with harassment solutions akin to Hellions and Speedlings. Where is the fast moving mineral only high DPS Protoss unit?
Protoss is going to be completely gutted by these changes and the game in general will become more turtley, as Warpgate provides Protoss a powerful defensive mechanic too.
It’s becoming more and more common even in Heart of the Swarm that mostly Stalkers are forming main armies. This suggests to us that perhaps the cost might be appropriate for the strength and utility of the unit.
I wish Blizzard understood how logic works. Stalkers form the core of Protoss armies in HOTS because Blink is really strong, and because they are a jack of all trades unit. That doesn't suggest they are balanced, it might suggest they are completely overpowered (I don't believe this to be the case) since their role is increasing, or it could suggest a lack of useful alternatives (which is what I believe to be the case).
Stalkers are great because you can build a ton of them quickly anywhere on the map. Immortals and Colossus are great, but only if you have time to build a force of them up, and time to get them where you need them.
Warpgate gives you the immediacy of having units where you need them, even if those units are necessarily that strong. And that often is better than having better units, where you don't need them. So Stalkers indeed form the core of armies, especially in back and forth games of attrition, because of a lack of useful alternatives for the Protoss race in those conditions.
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defensively, having a warpgate near is pretty easy.. most bases have 1+ warpgates near the nexus...
as i see it, for mid-late game, this mostly affects protoss ability to quickly counter-attack across the map... as now pylons alone won't cut it, you either have to wait for a warpgate to finish or bring a warp prism...
for early game, warp gate attack will incur a risk of some % of your production ... or if your opponent is not clearing pylons you can get an upgraded pylon in position...
these details are liable to change i'm sure, but it's looking good so far
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On July 25 2015 01:28 mishimaBeef wrote:
defensively, having a warpgate near is pretty easy.. most bases have 1+ warpgates near the nexus...
as i see it, for mid-late game, this mostly affects protoss ability to quickly counter-attack across the map... as now pylons alone won't cut it, you either have to wait for a warpgate to finish or bring a warp prism...
for early game, warp gate attack will incur a risk of some % of your production ... or if your opponent is not clearing pylons you can get an upgraded pylon in position...
these details are liable to change i'm sure, but it's looking good so far
How about harassment? Warpgate provides Protoss with harassment solutions akin to Hellions and Speedlings. Where is the fast moving mineral only high DPS Protoss unit?
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don't focus on one aspect... there are many changes in Legacy.
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Gateway forces lack power in only one real department (damage).
They can't fight for the mid-game because a small group (anywhere) is much less threatening than the opposing compositions' possible groupings (roach / hydra or lings or mutas or mmm).
If gateway compositions can't present an equal threat to base-trade and / or destroy economy and / or kill the opponent's units then they'll never be able to fight on an even keel.
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The Adept is the only place that protoss can realistically get a buff in consistent damage output.
Sentries and stalkers have too much power and utility already and zealots are simply too easily kited / killed / avoided (pick-up).
The advantages of converting the adept into a generalist DPS unit (instead of a tanky unit which totally wrecks the face of light units) are many:
- if it can shoot up and down ... then protoss has a more realistic answer than just phoenix to defending against mutas
- PO is less necessary since the most mobile unit (stalkers) are no longer also the tankiest AND most damaging unit
- recall is less necessary since damage can actually be fielded (along with tanks and support) directly at the site of a needed defense
- protoss doesn't have to death-ball (small packets of units can actually compete with opposing packets of units)
- the dependency of the race upon a few tech-units in the mid-to-late game is much lesser than previously (and thus the balance of the entire race is much easier to achieve)
and so on.
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So, yeah, Blizzard can make their changes to warp-gate and not buff stalkers. But trying to add unreliable damage to gateways and calling it a solid foundation simply won't work.
After over 4 months of beta (between 1/3 and 1/2 of the total duration based upon the release) not a single change has been made that stabilized gateway compositions.
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Even after all of the changes they've made to the entire game, Protoss just isn't fun to play in LotV. Not only do they need to make some of the planned changes to make it more fun to play against ... they need to give Protoss players something to be excited about. I doubt that the same changes that stabilize the race will immediately have this effect so ... blizzard has so little time left in the Beta to both address the core issues AND THEN invigorate life into the race.
Right now I just feel ... very, very tired. Tired like a man weary of war and its consequences who just wants to return to the simpler things of life. Tired like an activist whose put in tireless efforts to try to effect change ... only to see nothing significant happen.
I'm so tired of SC2 Protoss -- as someone who only wants to enjoy this race. If something doesn't change to actually encourage and uplift Protoss players to play the game, it seems a bleak future is ahead.
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The Adept is the only place that protoss can realistically get a buff in consistent damage output.
Sentries and stalkers have too much power and utility already and zealots are simply too easily kited / killed / avoided (pick-up).
The advantages of converting the adept into a generalist DPS unit (instead of a tanky unit which totally wrecks the face of light units) are many:
- if it can shoot up and down ... then protoss has a more realistic answer than just phoenix to defending against mutas
- PO is less necessary since the most mobile unit (stalkers) are no longer also the tankiest AND most damaging unit
- recall is less necessary since damage can actually be fielded (along with tanks and support) directly at the site of a needed defense
- protoss doesn't have to death-ball (small packets of units can actually compete with opposing packets of units)
- the dependency of the race upon a few tech-units in the mid-to-late game is much lesser than previously (and thus the balance of the entire race is much easier to achieve)
and so on.
I concure with most of everything you wrote Edowyth, though I do question 1 thing. Pretending Blizzard actually make the Adept a consistant damage output unit, this doesn't automatically mean the Adept also need to serve as an anti-air unit.
The Stalker could work wonders as harass/anti-air unit with their speed and mobility to keep up with air units. The only thing that would need to occur would be to buff their anti-air without making the ground damage better. Heck, if Zealot/Adept/Sentry could cover the ground, the Stalker's ground attack could be nerf with like no bonus damage to armor.
Though, this is just 1 thing in regards to a much larger rework.
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Allowing only certain units to be produced from warpgates is the coolest idea and would allow for so much diversity and strategy. It would also allow for balancing of certain units in ways that wouldn't be possible otherwise.
Something along the lines of having only zealots/stalkers/dark templar being able to be warped in. Warping in units would have an increased cooldown compared to producing from gateways. Gateways would be more ideal for army production with the decreased production cycle time and greater variety of units. Warpgates would be used for harass.
This would also add a greater differentiation between zealots and adepts as you can warp in zealots for harass, but would want to go for adepts when creating your core army. It would allow for stronger units to come out of gateways since they couldn't be warped in (possibly even immortals?). Warpgate units could be balanced separately from gateway units. Maybe even have stalkers that are made from gateways have blink, while warped in stalkers don't.
These are just random ideas but I feel like doing this would open up a lot of options to solve the issues currently at hand at add more versatility and strategy.
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Russian Federation4 Posts
would lower the value of the building itself Nidus worm raised to Zerg buildings can connect locations Nidus
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EPT
