|
On July 28 2015 22:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 21:52 Big J wrote:
Not sure where to post this. Is anybody else under the impression that air units clump a lot harder (since the last patch?). They fixed something with the attacks and that feels smoother, but it also feels like they played with the separation radius and I really don't like it. Yeah i think this was the way they fixed the moving shot problem. Is there a specific reason you don't like it? I only played with mutas so far though, was fine imo
Mainly my mutas getting splashed to death by liberators and it being very hard to do the usual magic boxing micro against few splash opponents. They just don't behave as I expect them to behave which annoys me. 
Not sure though if they actually changed a lot or it's just in my brain. It's just my gut feeling in some situations that some mutas stack together for too long when I'm trying to magic box.
|
On July 28 2015 15:27 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 15:10 ShambhalaWar wrote:On July 28 2015 13:30 TedCruz2016 wrote:On July 28 2015 12:51 ShambhalaWar wrote:On July 27 2015 11:06 SC2John wrote:
For the record, I still support the idea of making gateways produce faster while warpgates have a higher cooldown. Logically, this makes sense and requires fairly little rebalancing (just lower the production rates by a hair for gateways while giving warp gates an extra cooldown of ~10 seconds per unit and perhaps change the transformation time). It doesn't require any forced interaction in the game, and gives defender's advantage a strong buff while severely cutting the power of continued warpin aggression. At the very least, I'd like to see it tried and have significant amount of data collected before we write it off as "just a community nag". I really like this idea. Making choices to stay close to home while massing units and then slow production by changing the mode of your gates and reenforcing across the map could create many cool and different subtle styles of play (or so I imagine). These kind of changes are the perfect changes imo. It would be very simple to implement and test this, and it leaves lots of room for creativity. Simple change - leads to - diversity in strategies. I like that idea a lot as well, but I can't say the same about David Kim. When there occurs a problem, he always gives hot fixes other than a thorough cure. In this case, his idea is to delay the timing of the first wave of warp-in units rather than a longer cooldown of the warpgate. Does he think that doing so would make the protoss salt lose its flavor? It's true Protoss = salt in LOTV 0_0 That was but an old biblical saying which I used to describe P's unique way of unit production through the warpgate. The idea of that is really creative and it has become somewhat a racial identity that makes Protoss Protoss. If the cooldown becomes longer and subsequently results in a lower army supply than the enemy's, it may be in danger of being ditched as players would rather use gateway all the time to build a deathball, then P would be producing all units from production facilities like T does.
I believe you could balance the advantage of warping in across an entire map, with a slightly enhanced production from regular gates.
When you attack I don't think anyone would prefer to run zealots across something like whirlwind, when you can warp them in at a slightly reduced rate. If you can change gates back and forth people will just switch modes to whatever suits the moment. It makes push a little less strong, buffs defenders advantage, and possibly boosts push timings. Also proxy gets a buff. I think an option like this offers diversity.
Way better than, "lets give zealots another 3 points of health," or a suggestion of that nature.
|
On July 29 2015 01:26 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 15:27 TedCruz2016 wrote:On July 28 2015 15:10 ShambhalaWar wrote:On July 28 2015 13:30 TedCruz2016 wrote:On July 28 2015 12:51 ShambhalaWar wrote:On July 27 2015 11:06 SC2John wrote:
For the record, I still support the idea of making gateways produce faster while warpgates have a higher cooldown. Logically, this makes sense and requires fairly little rebalancing (just lower the production rates by a hair for gateways while giving warp gates an extra cooldown of ~10 seconds per unit and perhaps change the transformation time). It doesn't require any forced interaction in the game, and gives defender's advantage a strong buff while severely cutting the power of continued warpin aggression. At the very least, I'd like to see it tried and have significant amount of data collected before we write it off as "just a community nag". I really like this idea. Making choices to stay close to home while massing units and then slow production by changing the mode of your gates and reenforcing across the map could create many cool and different subtle styles of play (or so I imagine). These kind of changes are the perfect changes imo. It would be very simple to implement and test this, and it leaves lots of room for creativity. Simple change - leads to - diversity in strategies. I like that idea a lot as well, but I can't say the same about David Kim. When there occurs a problem, he always gives hot fixes other than a thorough cure. In this case, his idea is to delay the timing of the first wave of warp-in units rather than a longer cooldown of the warpgate. Does he think that doing so would make the protoss salt lose its flavor? It's true Protoss = salt in LOTV 0_0 That was but an old biblical saying which I used to describe P's unique way of unit production through the warpgate. The idea of that is really creative and it has become somewhat a racial identity that makes Protoss Protoss. If the cooldown becomes longer and subsequently results in a lower army supply than the enemy's, it may be in danger of being ditched as players would rather use gateway all the time to build a deathball, then P would be producing all units from production facilities like T does. I believe you could balance the advantage of warping in across an entire map, with a slightly enhanced production from regular gates. When you attack I don't think anyone would prefer to run zealots across something like whirlwind, when you can warp them in at a slightly reduced rate. If you can change gates back and forth people will just switch modes to whatever suits the moment. It makes push a little less strong, buffs defenders advantage, and possibly boosts push timings. Also proxy gets a buff. I think an option like this offers diversity. Way better than, "lets give zealots another 3 points of health," or a suggestion of that nature.
Fairly speaking, there's no doubt that a longer cooldown would nerf the early push, but it may cause some problems in mid and late game. If the primary forces are destroyed, P, compared to the other two races, has near-zero chance of a comeback. Luckily more or less this disadvantage is offset by the warp-in mechanism and chronoboost as you can quickly reassemble an army of instant gateway units by warping them in. I think that's the original intention of the design of it. It's what P has to compete with mass larvas and reactors. With a longer cooldown, though, that near-zero chance will be reduced to zero. I think the solution is an upgrade that shortens the longer cooldown to normal build time, so it won't affect P's resilience in late game.
.
|
Here's an idea - that may have been posted before - if we're going to make special warp in pylons alongside regular pylons: a certain range around Nexi (e.g. nexus cannon range) could always have warp in power to help out Protoss players in defending harassment etc.
|
In all seriousness, how often does a defensive warp in actually saves a Protoss player against Terran especially. In most instances you need to move chunks of your army into position to defend against the drop in the first place.
If you see the drop and warp in a bunk of zealots, either:
1. it arrives before unload and the Terran player boosts his drop to his main army and now you have 16 supply of zealots/stalkers not with your main army which is going to get engaged; or
2. It doesn't unload and they die meaningless
If you warp in stalkers, either:
1. It arrives in time, but really stalkers especially with blink move fast enough you can position existing stalkers in that amount of time; or
2. It doesn't unload and again they die
I think people overestimate/discuss the defensive power of warp ins. I would trade more mobile units for warp in any day of the week.
|
On July 30 2015 08:33 Dracover wrote:
In all seriousness, how often does a defensive warp in actually saves a Protoss player against Terran especially. In most instances you need to move chunks of your army into position to defend against the drop in the first place.
If you see the drop and warp in a bunk of zealots, either:
1. it arrives before unload and the Terran player boosts his drop to his main army and now you have 16 supply of zealots/stalkers not with your main army which is going to get engaged; or
2. It doesn't unload and they die meaningless
If you warp in stalkers, either:
1. It arrives in time, but really stalkers especially with blink move fast enough you can position existing stalkers in that amount of time; or
2. It doesn't unload and again they die
I think people overestimate/discuss the defensive power of warp ins. I would trade more mobile units for warp in any day of the week.
When I ladder, it occurs that I start warping in while units are already unloading. I'm only a diamond league player, but I'd wager that it happens to pros as well.
As for your statement on trading warping in for more mobile units: my initial reaction was to agree with you. However, warpins are currently not only a defense mechanism, they are also a harassment tool. Furthermore, warp gates serve as a "secondary macro booster", much like hatcheries can hold more larvae than 3 + the amount of 1 inject and much like reactors allow to build two units at a time. Finally, imagine the Protoss deathball with increased mobility... now there is something I'm sure everyone would struggle with.
|
On July 30 2015 23:42 linuxguru1 wrote:
When I ladder, it occurs that I start warping in while units are already unloading. I'm only a diamond league player, but I'd wager that it happens to pros as well.
Yes so defensively warp ins allow you to stop a drop inefficiently. It's a very minor defensive tool but DK talks about it like it allows toss to spread out because it's a god send defensive mechanic.
On July 30 2015 23:42 linuxguru1 wrote:
As for your statement on trading warping in for more mobile units: my initial reaction was to agree with you. However, warpins are currently not only a defense mechanism, they are also a harassment tool.
Offensively, i completely agree with blizzards proposal to remove warps ins. So you are left with warp-ins have very little effect defensively. It is hugely effective offensively but lets remove the offensive ability, so why have it at all.
On July 30 2015 23:42 linuxguru1 wrote:
Furthermore, warp gates serve as a "secondary macro booster", much like hatcheries can hold more larvae than 3 + the amount of 1 inject and much like reactors allow to build two units at a time.
Warp-ins are not a macro booster, all they do is change the timing of your units from the start of the cycle to the end. It changes timing it does not allow for a boost of units at a point in time.
On July 30 2015 23:42 linuxguru1 wrote:
Finally, imagine the Protoss deathball with increased mobility... now there is something I'm sure everyone would struggle with.
Yes that's why you will need to rebalance the units as a result. No one is saying do one thing to one feature and let it be.
|
On July 31 2015 15:59 Dracover wrote:
Warp-ins are not a macro booster, all they do is change the timing of your units from the start of the cycle to the end. It changes timing it does not allow for a boost of units at a point in time.
It definitely is. Don't ignore the fact that it saves the traveling time for the units from the warpgate to the rally point. No other production facility can do that.
|
On July 31 2015 16:33 TedCruz2016 wrote:
It definitely is. Don't ignore the fact that it saves the traveling time for the units from the warpgate to the rally point. No other production facility can do that.
But they want to kill that. Which was my whole point. It doesn't really help defensively. Lets kill it's offence. So why not just kill it and rebalance around it.
|
On July 31 2015 17:01 Dracover wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 16:33 TedCruz2016 wrote:
It definitely is. Don't ignore the fact that it saves the traveling time for the units from the warpgate to the rally point. No other production facility can do that. But they want to kill that. Which was my whole point. It doesn't really help defensively. Lets kill it's offence. So why not just kill it and rebalance around it.
What they want to kill is just proxy pylon, while prism wrap-in will still be untouched and the cooldown still significantly shorter than normal build time. Just take a look at the adept's stats - 38 sec build time, yet only 28 sec cooldown!
|
On July 31 2015 17:01 Dracover wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 16:33 TedCruz2016 wrote:
It definitely is. Don't ignore the fact that it saves the traveling time for the units from the warpgate to the rally point. No other production facility can do that. But they want to kill that. Which was my whole point. It doesn't really help defensively. Lets kill it's offence. So why not just kill it and rebalance around it.
Of course it helps defensively. A lot. It was one of the first big feedbacks of profesional players when they played with the original LotV warpgate nerfs: "Protoss is now much weaker at defending harass."
Even the extra damage while warping in is very noticeable. For example in LotV with mutalisks it is nearly always a good idea to try and kill warping stalkers while in HotS most of the time you just use the few seconds before the unit can atta k to kill a few more probes and get out.
|
On July 31 2015 18:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 17:01 Dracover wrote:On July 31 2015 16:33 TedCruz2016 wrote:
It definitely is. Don't ignore the fact that it saves the traveling time for the units from the warpgate to the rally point. No other production facility can do that. But they want to kill that. Which was my whole point. It doesn't really help defensively. Lets kill it's offence. So why not just kill it and rebalance around it. Of course it helps defensively. A lot. It was one of the first big feedbacks of profesional players when they played with the original LotV warpgate nerfs: "Protoss is now much weaker at defending harass." Even the extra damage while warping in is very noticeable. For example in LotV with mutalisks it is nearly always a good idea to try and kill warping stalkers while in HotS most of the time you just use the few seconds before the unit can atta k to kill a few more probes and get out.
Meanwhile look at the side of the offensive use, warp-in is actually buffed, because in LotV you'll probably gonna have a prism or two following your death ball like T's medivac in order to "rescue" your disruptor, immortal or colossus with the new distant pickup feature, so that means wherever your death ball goes, you can immediately teleport your reinforcement there by warping them in. That would really save the traveling time.
|
On July 31 2015 18:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 17:01 Dracover wrote:On July 31 2015 16:33 TedCruz2016 wrote:
It definitely is. Don't ignore the fact that it saves the traveling time for the units from the warpgate to the rally point. No other production facility can do that. But they want to kill that. Which was my whole point. It doesn't really help defensively. Lets kill it's offence. So why not just kill it and rebalance around it. Of course it helps defensively. A lot. It was one of the first big feedbacks of profesional players when they played with the original LotV warpgate nerfs: "Protoss is now much weaker at defending harass." Even the extra damage while warping in is very noticeable. For example in LotV with mutalisks it is nearly always a good idea to try and kill warping stalkers while in HotS most of the time you just use the few seconds before the unit can atta k to kill a few more probes and get out.
It's not just the time it takes to walk from the gateway to the rally point and increased LotV hitpoints that make warpgate strong defensively. Warpgate allows you react instantly should your opponent throw something at you when you've already commited to something else.
For example, say you start an engagement with a maxed out army in the middle of the map and your opponent counterattacks. You don't have to wait for a production cycle to finish before units are ready to defend.
One can argue that Terran and Zerg are in the same boat and that they are capable of dealing with it. However, don't forget that Protoss units have significantly longer buildtimes than Terran and Zerg units. I hope we can agree that - especially when combined with the mobility/distance-to-rally issue - Terran and Zerg are in very different boats than Protoss.
Rebalancing the entire Protoss race is indeed a solution, although a very time- and labour-intensive one and hence a less realistic one.
EDIT:
On July 31 2015 23:28 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 18:39 Big J wrote:On July 31 2015 17:01 Dracover wrote:On July 31 2015 16:33 TedCruz2016 wrote:
It definitely is. Don't ignore the fact that it saves the traveling time for the units from the warpgate to the rally point. No other production facility can do that. But they want to kill that. Which was my whole point. It doesn't really help defensively. Lets kill it's offence. So why not just kill it and rebalance around it. Of course it helps defensively. A lot. It was one of the first big feedbacks of profesional players when they played with the original LotV warpgate nerfs: "Protoss is now much weaker at defending harass." Even the extra damage while warping in is very noticeable. For example in LotV with mutalisks it is nearly always a good idea to try and kill warping stalkers while in HotS most of the time you just use the few seconds before the unit can atta k to kill a few more probes and get out. Meanwhile look at the side of the offensive use, warp-in is actually buffed, because in LotV you'll probably gonna have a prism or two following your death ball like T's medivac in order to "rescue" your disruptor, immortal or colossus with the new distant pickup feature, so that means wherever your death ball goes, you can immediately teleport your reinforcement there by warping them in. That would really save the traveling time.
So you would remove warpins offensively all together? What about defensively? Can you think of a way to make up for the hit harassment takes? Or is it your opinion that Protoss has enough harassment tools already?
|
Anyone has problem with this patch when trying to queue? It says "You are running an outdated version of the game and must apply a recent patch ... etc."
|
On July 31 2015 23:40 Nerchio wrote:
Anyone has problem with this patch when trying to queue? It says "You are running an outdated version of the game and must apply a recent patch ... etc."
Same here...
|
On July 31 2015 23:28 TedCruz2016 wrote:
So you would remove warpins offensively all together? What about defensively? Can you think of a way to make up for the hit harassment takes? Or is it your opinion that Protoss has enough harassment tools already?
I didn't suggest that. I think the nerf is just for pylon warp-in, while prism warp-in is actually buffed because prism is more useful than ever before thanks to the addition of the distant pickup, therefore it's probably gonna appear more often in frontal engagement other than warp-in harassment. Just a prediction, though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
