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Flopjack
United States51 Posts
Illustration for reference: http://i.imgur.com/hrbV8Ge.jpg You can toggle between the two attack patterns. There is a small delay before the damage happens so it can be microed against. You can move units left/right or forward/backward (in relation to the Colossus' attacks) to avoid damage depending on what attack version the player is using. The attack rate is slower but the damage is higher (than our current Colossus). Still strong at A+moving for noobs. More wiggle room for pros. Thoughts? | ||
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CthulhuWarlord
United States26 Posts
EDIT HotS changed to LotV | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
Scrap the Colossus. | ||
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Flopjack
United States51 Posts
On April 05 2015 16:12 CthulhuWarlord wrote:LOL imagine having a Colossus ball with half of them having each. that's like disgusting aoe coverage. Doesn't that open yourself up to counter play from Corruptors, Vikings, and the like? Additionally, consider a lower rate of fire. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On April 05 2015 16:01 Flopjack wrote: I posted this on Reddit. I thought I'd share with TL as well. Illustration for reference: http://i.imgur.com/hrbV8Ge.jpg You can toggle between the two attack patterns. There is a small delay before the damage happens so it can be microed against. You can move units left/right or forward/backward (in relation to the Colossus' attacks) to avoid damage depending on what attack version the player is using. The attack rate is slower but the damage is higher (than our current Colossus). Still strong at A+moving for noobs. More wiggle room for pros. Thoughts? I like people like you who come up with these suggestion for abilities with countermicro. But while I think testing a skillshot-based Colossus would have been great in HOTS beta, I would today like to see it move in a different direaction. In terms of AOE-late game, toss already has "spellcasters" such as Disruptors and HT with AOE damage. Therefore I wouldn't mind seeing the Colossus role as a consistent damage-dealer against light units (Immortal vs armored). And I know that you might think that a unit without abilities = A-move, however, I think we can promote more of the classical RTS micro here: --> Collosus moves into attack the enemy --> The Collosus is target fired --> A skilled protoss player moves his Colossus back and saves it for another day. This is actually the micro I wanna see more of. Yes AOE and abilites can be awesome, but toss already has that. On the other hand, its also obvious that the current Colossus doesn't reward the classical RTS micro at all, and that the mass Viking/Corrupter vs Colossus is really boring. But with the below mentioned changes, you can actually promote more of the micro I would like to see here; A "classical" RTS-Colossus (1) Get rid of AA-vulnerability --> This interaction sucks, and it should be balanced in a different way (2) Reduce attack-range to 6.5-7 --> Makes it more vulnerable to targetfire (3) Increase movement speed to 2.4-2.75 --> Makes it a bit easer to have it out on the map without a deathball protecting it + you can easier pull back if target fired (4) Remove splash and replace it with high single target damage + bonus damage vs light units --> Splash-attack punishes the enemy for target firing the Colossus as they group up in the proces. By balancing it around single target target, focus fire is further rewarded. (5) Max turn-rate + no damage point --> More responsive, which makes it more microable against target firing. TLDR; This suggested Colossus promotes more classical RTS micro and is differentiated from the Disruptor in it having consistent damage. It also has a weakness vs armored units which opens up a role for the Immortal. Moreover Disruptor is also better vs Roaches and Marauders (so its also a bit different in that regard) | ||
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Sholip
Hungary422 Posts
On April 05 2015 18:42 Hider wrote: I like people like you who come up with these suggestion for abilities with countermicro to amove units. But while I think testing a skillshot-based Colossus would have been great in HOTS beta, I would today like to see it move in a different direaction. In terms of AOE-late game, toss already has "spellcasters" such as Disruptors and HT with AOE damage I wouldn't mind seeing the Colossus role as a consistent damage-dealer against light units (Immortal vs armored). And I know that you might think that a unit without abilities = A-move, however, I think we can promote more of the classical RTS micro here: --> Collosus moves into attack the enemy --> The Collosus is target fired --> A skilled protoss player moves his Colossus back and saves it for another day. This is actually the micro I wanna see more of. Yes AOE and abilites can be awesome, but toss already has that. On the other hand, its also obvious that the current Colossus doesn't reward the classical RTS micro at all, and that the mass Viking/Corrupter vs Colossus is really boring. But with the below mentioned changes, you can actually promote more of the micro I would like to see here; A "classical" RTS-Colossus (1) Get rid of AA-vulnerability --> This interaction sucks, and it should be balanced in a different way (2) Reduce attack-range to 6.5-7 --> Makes it more vulnerable to targetfire (3) Increase movement speed to 2.4-2.75 --> Makes it a bit easer to have it out on the map without a deathball protecting it + you can easier pull back if target fired (4) Remove splash and replace it with high single target damage + bonus damage vs light units --> Splash-attack punishes the enemy for target firing the Colossus as they group up in the proces. By balancing it around single target target, focus fire is further rewarded. (5) Max turn-rate + no damage point --> More responsive, which makes it more microable against target firing. TLDR; This suggested Colossus promotes more classical RTS micro and is differentiated from the Disruptor in it having consistent damage. It also has a weakness vs armored units which opens up a role for the Immortal. Moreover Disruptor is also better vs Roaches and Maurauders (so its also a bit different in that regard) Do you not think removing the splash damage would render the Colossus useless? Even if it one-shot Marines, you would never use it because against bio you need splash damage. On the other hand, I don't mind it being targeted by AA, I think it's kind of a nice unique thing, but it's just my opinion. Anyway, with the introduction of the Disruptor and the nerfs to the Colossus, I can't help but think that Blizzard intends to basically kill the Colossus altogether, and let the Disruptor replace it entirely, which makes me kinda sad. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
Do you not think removing the splash damage would render the Colossus useless? Even if it one-shot Marines, you would never use it because against bio you need splash damage. On the other hand, I don't mind it being targeted by AA, I think it's kind of a nice unique thing, but it's just my opinion. I think what you need vs bio is very high overall DPS per cost. Given that the Collosus here needs to get into danger-zone + is quite fragile, it can actually be balanced around a very high DPS. The current version I have been experiemnting with in the editor also increases its attack speed and it deals 60 damage vs light and 40 vs armored (I believe). With these changes, it fares pretty well during engagements. It is slightly worse vs a normal mix of Marines and Maurauders than it is in HOTS, but remember that there are also no Viking hardcounter. So there is no scenario where your Colossus are simply useless either. On top of that, it also has more synergy with the Warp Prism since there aren't 10 Vikings to instantly shoot it down. The weakness vs armored units is obviously necceasry here as it deincentives someone from massing Collosus as the enemy can softcounter it by using more Maurauders/Roaches. With these changes, the Colossus doesn't get a major role in the game, but late game there comes a time where Disruptors doesn't scale too much (8 Disruptrs aren't twice as good as 4), and where you are looking for other options. | ||
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On April 05 2015 19:44 Phaenoman wrote: It's still an a-move unit. Again, the opponent has to micro. We do not want this kind of "design". Well, there are a lot of "A-move units" in the game. I don't think that is the problem. The problem with Colossus had always been it was too strong, but it had to be to make up the the weakness of Protoss tier 1 units (mass Marines or Roaches just rolls Protoss tier 1). So they just got massed in PvP, and many strategies in PvZ and PvT are based around them and building units to protect them. Generally, I have disdain for a lot of the ideas on TL because I don't think they are well thought out, but Hider's idea above for Colossus is actually brilliant. I'd like to say though that if Terran isn't forced to make Vikings, they will go right up to Ghosts and that is going to create some issues. Furthermore, what is the purpose of Vikings for Terran then? Certainly they would still counter Stargate units, but they do such a good job that (a long with Marines) that we never see a commitment to Stargate units by Protoss. And since we never see that commitment, we would never see Vikings. One big problem with SC2 is that the game is designed around really strong units having hard counters, and some of those hard counters are only good if the units they counter are on the map. Phoenixes are a good all-around units for scouting and harassing so they have a purpose other than dealing with light air units like Mutalisks. Vikings and Corrupters are not good at anything but countering armored air units. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Now we have 2 units that share an attack pattern basically with the Lurker and the Colossus. And their attack functions differently. Which will lead to some confusion for starters, which is really bad. Anyway the Colossus micro comes from targetfireing, a-move only works if your opponent is not microing properly. And thats usually what all AoE units are about. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On April 06 2015 03:59 FeyFey wrote: I never understood why they didn't make the laser like lurker spikes. Of course the damage would have to be adjusted and the attack speed. Because if units run through the beams the aoe damage would be amplified. But you would have some micro ability with and against them. Now we have 2 units that share an attack pattern basically with the Lurker and the Colossus. And their attack functions differently. Which will lead to some confusion for starters, which is really bad. Anyway the Colossus micro comes from targetfireing, a-move only works if your opponent is not microing properly. And thats usually what all AoE units are about. I think skillshots should have realistic countermicro to it. The issue with skillshots on the Colossus autoattack is that you can't really dodge skillshots that can be fired every other second (from multiple units). The only counterplay is to flank prebattle, but that's already rewarded anyway. So there are no obvious advantages to giving it such an attack animation. | ||
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devius26
Sweden15 Posts
Rather than have AoE on the Collossus' auto-attack, why not combine the ideas and give it a strong, short range but micro-able single target attack, and also a long range delayed aoe on a 15ish second cooldown? It could create an interesting interaction with the Disruptor by placing the AoE to cut off directions to dodge the blast, giving you a reason to have both units at the same time. You could also make it do friendly fire to discourage placing the AoE right in front of your army to prevent target-fire. Personally I kind of like the idea of Protoss having super powerful attacks at the cost of hurting themselves (Storm, Disruptor). Isn't it in line with the Collossus lore as well? I think they were originally taken out of service because they were too destructive, but we haven't really seen that represented in-game with the riskless Collossus so far. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
On April 06 2015 03:43 BronzeKnee wrote: Well, there are a lot of "A-move units" in the game. I don't think that is the problem. I disagree. A-moving units that do guaranteed splash dmg and enforce only the opponent to micro are a problem. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On April 05 2015 16:01 Flopjack wrote: You can toggle between the two attack patterns. How? Am I crazy or does this just clearly not exist? | ||
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Sholip
Hungary422 Posts
On April 06 2015 04:51 Phaenoman wrote: I disagree. A-moving units that do guaranteed splash dmg and enforce only the opponent to micro are a problem. Well, storm also forces the opponent to micro much more than the Protoss. You have to move your Templars and click the storm, sure, but you also have to move back your Colossi from time to time. The thing is, heavy splash damage dealers are necessary against Terran, for example, because bio has such a high DPS that there is no other way to combat it. I see that the Colossus damage is really hard to avoid, but you can still target fire/kill it via air. | ||
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
On April 06 2015 05:12 Sholip wrote: Well, storm also forces the opponent to micro much more than the Protoss. You have to move your Templars and click the storm, sure, but you also have to move back your Colossi from time to time. The thing is, heavy splash damage dealers are necessary against Terran, for example, because bio has such a high DPS that there is no other way to combat it. I see that the Colossus damage is really hard to avoid, but you can still target fire/kill it via air. Strom is not even close to be comparable to colossus. Storm is not infinitly available in a certain time intervall. Storm is not just attack move. Storm is not guaranteed splash dmg. Ofc Protoss needs splash, or much better would further to add reliable combat units. But the colossus is a very bad unit, it doesnt matter what u try to say. Even nerfing Terran units is much better than having a colossus. | ||
digmouse
China6333 Posts
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Flopjack
United States51 Posts
On April 06 2015 05:12 NonY wrote: It does not exist. This thread is about a hypothetical Colossus change.How? Am I crazy or does this just clearly not exist? | ||
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