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Thanks to Reddit sleuths, everyone can try the LotV test maps by following instructions here. Note: This is not a beta key, it is simply access to Vs. AI and a Unit Tester. I have no idea how cool with this Blizzard is or is not, use at your own risk. |
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:The Protoss changes puzzle me. It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand that Protoss isn't capable of playing the 6-base economy style they want in LOTV. Adepts won't change that. Disruptors might, but I doubt it. The problem is, if Blizzard isn't entirely prepared for this possibility and it catches them with their pants down, we're going to be looking at more band aid solutions in the form of ezmode spells like Photon Overcharge. Shit like that allows Protoss to function in ways its design says it shouldn't, at the cost of narrowing the skill gap between great Protoss players and mediocre ones. This leads me to my next point: god damn invulnerability. Protoss already has pseudo-invulnerability in the form of Warp In which prevents bad players from accidentally losing units while they rally across the entire map, or losing shittons of Zealots in WPs. We need LESS mechanics in the game that are forgiving of poor plays, not MORE. Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back! Invulnerable Nydus is ridiculous. Failing to scout against Nydus is basically the same thing as failing to scout against WMs, only instead of losing 2-10 Probes, you lose your entire base. WPs picking up units from halfway across the screen is way too forgiving of bad plays. I won't comment on Disruptor invulnerability, it might actually create a lot of micro once we see Protoss and Terrans reacting to one another. Terran bio still has nothing to tech into other than the occasional couple of Thors. What's so complicated about adding a T3 bio unit? Still hype though.  I just hope that Blizzard is a lot more on top of things than this progression of changes makes it appear. All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second and save them with two clicks. "Whoopsy daisy!" It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.
You are punished, now your immortals are damaged and they're in your warp prism, which they can't do damage from. There should be counter play to everything. Now with those immortals in the warp prism you have to move them back and drop them. Maybe your army just got wrecked without the immortal support. Or maybe their army just pulled back to regroup after the good engagement. Lots of things and lots of counterplay.
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On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.
This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game.
"Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing.
"OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything".
"Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets."
And the list gets on, you get the idea...
You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens.
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This is extremely unexciting for whatever reason.
I feel like Terran is getting hit hard.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:
Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back!
Their ability takes 10 seconds to teleport them, requires pretty precise timing to get in, out and scout without teleporting yourself into the middle of the opponents base by accident. And if the player has a wall that option also falls flat, at that point I'd let the shade through, close the wall and kill the adept for free honestly.
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On March 19 2015 09:42 fteneq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:The Protoss changes puzzle me. It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand that Protoss isn't capable of playing the 6-base economy style they want in LOTV. Adepts won't change that. Disruptors might, but I doubt it. The problem is, if Blizzard isn't entirely prepared for this possibility and it catches them with their pants down, we're going to be looking at more band aid solutions in the form of ezmode spells like Photon Overcharge. Shit like that allows Protoss to function in ways its design says it shouldn't, at the cost of narrowing the skill gap between great Protoss players and mediocre ones. This leads me to my next point: god damn invulnerability. Protoss already has pseudo-invulnerability in the form of Warp In which prevents bad players from accidentally losing units while they rally across the entire map, or losing shittons of Zealots in WPs. We need LESS mechanics in the game that are forgiving of poor plays, not MORE. Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back! Invulnerable Nydus is ridiculous. Failing to scout against Nydus is basically the same thing as failing to scout against WMs, only instead of losing 2-10 Probes, you lose your entire base. WPs picking up units from halfway across the screen is way too forgiving of bad plays. I won't comment on Disruptor invulnerability, it might actually create a lot of micro once we see Protoss and Terrans reacting to one another. Terran bio still has nothing to tech into other than the occasional couple of Thors. What's so complicated about adding a T3 bio unit? Still hype though. I just hope that Blizzard is a lot more on top of things than this progression of changes makes it appear. All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second and save them with two clicks. "Whoopsy daisy!" It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. You are punished, now your immortals are damaged and they're in your warp prism, which they can't do damage from. There should be counter play to everything. Now with those immortals in the warp prism you have to move them back and drop them. Maybe your army just got wrecked without the immortal support. Or maybe their army just pulled back to regroup after the good engagement. Lots of things and lots of counterplay.
Obviously I'm punished, I'm saying I'm not punished enough. Do I really need to spell this out?
High level Protoss does not require the same level of multitasking, and does not reward the same level of multitasking, as high level Terran or Zerg.
Send a Warp Prism across the map to warp in a bunch of Zealots. The Warp Prism died en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 200/0. None of the Zealots were inside. Send two Medivacs across the map to drop a bunch of bio. The Medivacs die en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 1000/200 if they were full of Marines. Literally the exact same multitasking error has cost the Terran 800/200 more than the Protoss for the same basic tactic, because Protoss units can simply bypass the entire map. This is shitty.
On the other hand, a well microed Terran drop can achieve things a well microed Zealot warp in could never dream of because the units being warped in have the micro potential of potatoes. This is also shitty.
This applies to basically everything about the Protoss race, and these LOTV updates seem to be heading in that same direction all over again.
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On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens.
I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays.
All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening.
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On March 19 2015 08:16 xtorn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 02:31 ThomasjServo wrote:
I am glad the toss addition was a gateway unit, have to say. i respectfully disagree with being glad on this, but hey who the fuck am i -- if the progamers enjoy the change, then by all means it just seems to me like this race has way too many options of extremely powerful earlygame harass but hey, ravagers are nice
What? Could you please elaborate? What are those early harass options you speak of?
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On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens. I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays. All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening.
I'm sorry but, only 0.01% of the population is as good as Parting during his soul trains. As a community people stick around for that consistent player base who play the game to have fun, and with out that player base you aren't going to get a competitive scene regardless of how good your game is.
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1. Tank can fire from medivac
2. Viking/BC can attach to top of medivac for increased spead and protection capabilities
3. Upgrade medivac to whatever the big dropship was in WoL Campaign
4. Can we get some more basic units w/o abilities? having so many abilities per unit just seems not RTS like, more like moba...
And lastly can we get some of the stupid stuff that was removed at the start of WoL back? ex. reaper speed, VR speed, ghost energy upgrade and also the upgrade for HT, tank damage, ghost damage, and all those other things you fucked up with at the start of the game? oh yeah and make sure it's actually balance in 4v4, and not just some shitfeast that abilities cr8? plz blizzard hire some more ppl that actually 'play' the game aswell not just ppl that are good at making crappy ideas. Really I feel that this game is already moving away from RTS and into a more one dimensional game, either you have the counters or you don't and lose, and also there are so many other ways to improve the early game you don't add anything by making it start with more workers, hope you remove that to
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On March 19 2015 10:01 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens. I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays. All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening. I'm sorry but, only 0.01% of the population is as good as Parting during his soul trains. As a community people stick around for that consistent player base who play the game to have fun, and with out that player base you aren't going to get a competitive scene regardless of how good your game is.
Are you implying that there is no other way to grow the community apart from making Protoss easier to play? And making WP require less multitasking to use well is the best solution Blizzard could have come up with? I think you're implying that.
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4v4 is not the main feature of the game, so they're not gonna balance it around that idea.
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On March 19 2015 09:51 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 09:42 fteneq wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:The Protoss changes puzzle me. It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand that Protoss isn't capable of playing the 6-base economy style they want in LOTV. Adepts won't change that. Disruptors might, but I doubt it. The problem is, if Blizzard isn't entirely prepared for this possibility and it catches them with their pants down, we're going to be looking at more band aid solutions in the form of ezmode spells like Photon Overcharge. Shit like that allows Protoss to function in ways its design says it shouldn't, at the cost of narrowing the skill gap between great Protoss players and mediocre ones. This leads me to my next point: god damn invulnerability. Protoss already has pseudo-invulnerability in the form of Warp In which prevents bad players from accidentally losing units while they rally across the entire map, or losing shittons of Zealots in WPs. We need LESS mechanics in the game that are forgiving of poor plays, not MORE. Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back! Invulnerable Nydus is ridiculous. Failing to scout against Nydus is basically the same thing as failing to scout against WMs, only instead of losing 2-10 Probes, you lose your entire base. WPs picking up units from halfway across the screen is way too forgiving of bad plays. I won't comment on Disruptor invulnerability, it might actually create a lot of micro once we see Protoss and Terrans reacting to one another. Terran bio still has nothing to tech into other than the occasional couple of Thors. What's so complicated about adding a T3 bio unit? Still hype though. I just hope that Blizzard is a lot more on top of things than this progression of changes makes it appear. All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second and save them with two clicks. "Whoopsy daisy!" It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. You are punished, now your immortals are damaged and they're in your warp prism, which they can't do damage from. There should be counter play to everything. Now with those immortals in the warp prism you have to move them back and drop them. Maybe your army just got wrecked without the immortal support. Or maybe their army just pulled back to regroup after the good engagement. Lots of things and lots of counterplay. Obviously I'm punished, I'm saying I'm not punished enough. Do I really need to spell this out? High level Protoss does not require the same level of multitasking, and does not reward the same level of multitasking, as high level Terran or Zerg. Send a Warp Prism across the map to warp in a bunch of Zealots. The Warp Prism died en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 200/0. None of the Zealots were inside. Send two Medivacs across the map to drop a bunch of bio. The Medivacs die en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 1000/200 if they were full of Marines. Literally the exact same multitasking error has cost the Terran 800/200 more than the Protoss for the same basic tactic, because Protoss units can simply bypass the entire map. This is shitty.On the other hand, a well microed Terran drop can achieve things a well microed Zealot warp in could never dream of because the units being warped in have the micro potential of potatoes. This is also shitty.This applies to basically everything about the Protoss race, and these LOTV updates seem to be heading in that same direction all over again.
Protoss and Terran are different races. Their drops have different risk/reward and that's fine. Protoss has to risk things like losing a game because of missing one Forcefield. Even drops can be valuable, we've been seeing Colossus drops recently with Zealot warp-ins leaving the Protoss very vulnerable at home and with the potential to do a lot of damage. Adepts and Disruptors both seem like units that will be droppable and super microable too.
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On March 19 2015 10:10 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 09:51 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:42 fteneq wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:The Protoss changes puzzle me. It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand that Protoss isn't capable of playing the 6-base economy style they want in LOTV. Adepts won't change that. Disruptors might, but I doubt it. The problem is, if Blizzard isn't entirely prepared for this possibility and it catches them with their pants down, we're going to be looking at more band aid solutions in the form of ezmode spells like Photon Overcharge. Shit like that allows Protoss to function in ways its design says it shouldn't, at the cost of narrowing the skill gap between great Protoss players and mediocre ones. This leads me to my next point: god damn invulnerability. Protoss already has pseudo-invulnerability in the form of Warp In which prevents bad players from accidentally losing units while they rally across the entire map, or losing shittons of Zealots in WPs. We need LESS mechanics in the game that are forgiving of poor plays, not MORE. Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back! Invulnerable Nydus is ridiculous. Failing to scout against Nydus is basically the same thing as failing to scout against WMs, only instead of losing 2-10 Probes, you lose your entire base. WPs picking up units from halfway across the screen is way too forgiving of bad plays. I won't comment on Disruptor invulnerability, it might actually create a lot of micro once we see Protoss and Terrans reacting to one another. Terran bio still has nothing to tech into other than the occasional couple of Thors. What's so complicated about adding a T3 bio unit? Still hype though. I just hope that Blizzard is a lot more on top of things than this progression of changes makes it appear. All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second and save them with two clicks. "Whoopsy daisy!" It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. You are punished, now your immortals are damaged and they're in your warp prism, which they can't do damage from. There should be counter play to everything. Now with those immortals in the warp prism you have to move them back and drop them. Maybe your army just got wrecked without the immortal support. Or maybe their army just pulled back to regroup after the good engagement. Lots of things and lots of counterplay. Obviously I'm punished, I'm saying I'm not punished enough. Do I really need to spell this out? High level Protoss does not require the same level of multitasking, and does not reward the same level of multitasking, as high level Terran or Zerg. Send a Warp Prism across the map to warp in a bunch of Zealots. The Warp Prism died en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 200/0. None of the Zealots were inside. Send two Medivacs across the map to drop a bunch of bio. The Medivacs die en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 1000/200 if they were full of Marines. Literally the exact same multitasking error has cost the Terran 800/200 more than the Protoss for the same basic tactic, because Protoss units can simply bypass the entire map. This is shitty.On the other hand, a well microed Terran drop can achieve things a well microed Zealot warp in could never dream of because the units being warped in have the micro potential of potatoes. This is also shitty.This applies to basically everything about the Protoss race, and these LOTV updates seem to be heading in that same direction all over again. Protoss and Terran are different races.
Just because it's different doesn't make it good. Every race should have the same (or as same as possible) multitasking requirement throughout the entire game, with as few "you lose the game because you weren't looking at the right screen at the last second" mechanics as possible.
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On March 19 2015 10:07 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 10:01 Caihead wrote:On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens. I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays. All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening. I'm sorry but, only 0.01% of the population is as good as Parting during his soul trains. As a community people stick around for that consistent player base who play the game to have fun, and with out that player base you aren't going to get a competitive scene regardless of how good your game is. Are you implying that there is no other way to grow the community apart from making Protoss easier to play? And making WP require less multitasking to use well is the best solution Blizzard could have come up with? I think you're implying that.
I don't understand what you are trying to say, you realize that clicking on two immortals with a warp prism has the exact same actual game play difficulty (some might even argue that it's EASIER to click on them if they are closer to the warp prism because you have to move the mouse less) if they are directly under the warp prism or if they are a short distance away?
Look I will even show you.
With out buff:
Left click warp prism, click on immortals to drop or hot key to drop.
Move commands and stop micro.
"Oh shit my immortals are dying"
Left click select or hotkey immortals, right click on warp prism; or left click warp prism, spam right click on immortals.
With buff
Left click warp prism, click on immortals to drop or hot key to drop.
Move commands and stop micro.
"Oh shit my immortals are dying"
Left click select or hotkey immortals, right click on warp prism; or left click warp prism, spam right click on immortals.
If anything you can argue that this makes it possible for the Protoss to do MORE micro because now they can zone out ground to air fire by hovering over terrain when there's no air vision.
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zerg is strong now. Good...
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On March 19 2015 10:18 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 10:07 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 10:01 Caihead wrote:On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens. I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays. All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening. I'm sorry but, only 0.01% of the population is as good as Parting during his soul trains. As a community people stick around for that consistent player base who play the game to have fun, and with out that player base you aren't going to get a competitive scene regardless of how good your game is. Are you implying that there is no other way to grow the community apart from making Protoss easier to play? And making WP require less multitasking to use well is the best solution Blizzard could have come up with? I think you're implying that. I don't understand what you are trying to say, you realize that clicking on two immortals with a warp prism has the exact same actual game play difficulty (some might even argue that it's EASIER to click on them if they are closer to the warp prism because you have to move the mouse less) if they are directly under the warp prism or if they are a short distance away?
The difference is in LOTV you will have a lot more time to do the clicking. Right now, you have to click in anticiption of the Immortals taking damage, or else your WP might not make it to the Immortal in time once it starts doing damage. In LOTV, as long as your WP isn't literally screens away, you will be able to click purely as a reaction.
The micro is the same, the multitasking is FAR more forgiving. Follow?
If your WP gets focused by Queens, right now you have a decision to make - do you babysit it to keep it near the Immortals, or send it away and lower the time frame you'll have to pick them up? In LOTV, you will not have to make this decision.
Potentially way less micro requirement.
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Bisutopia19398 Posts
I'm very excited by all their explanations. Blizzard really wants LoTV to be a success and I hope everyone who gets in closed beta gives positive and healthy feedback.
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On March 19 2015 10:15 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 10:10 ZAiNs wrote:On March 19 2015 09:51 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:42 fteneq wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:The Protoss changes puzzle me. It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand that Protoss isn't capable of playing the 6-base economy style they want in LOTV. Adepts won't change that. Disruptors might, but I doubt it. The problem is, if Blizzard isn't entirely prepared for this possibility and it catches them with their pants down, we're going to be looking at more band aid solutions in the form of ezmode spells like Photon Overcharge. Shit like that allows Protoss to function in ways its design says it shouldn't, at the cost of narrowing the skill gap between great Protoss players and mediocre ones. This leads me to my next point: god damn invulnerability. Protoss already has pseudo-invulnerability in the form of Warp In which prevents bad players from accidentally losing units while they rally across the entire map, or losing shittons of Zealots in WPs. We need LESS mechanics in the game that are forgiving of poor plays, not MORE. Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back! Invulnerable Nydus is ridiculous. Failing to scout against Nydus is basically the same thing as failing to scout against WMs, only instead of losing 2-10 Probes, you lose your entire base. WPs picking up units from halfway across the screen is way too forgiving of bad plays. I won't comment on Disruptor invulnerability, it might actually create a lot of micro once we see Protoss and Terrans reacting to one another. Terran bio still has nothing to tech into other than the occasional couple of Thors. What's so complicated about adding a T3 bio unit? Still hype though. I just hope that Blizzard is a lot more on top of things than this progression of changes makes it appear. All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second and save them with two clicks. "Whoopsy daisy!" It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. You are punished, now your immortals are damaged and they're in your warp prism, which they can't do damage from. There should be counter play to everything. Now with those immortals in the warp prism you have to move them back and drop them. Maybe your army just got wrecked without the immortal support. Or maybe their army just pulled back to regroup after the good engagement. Lots of things and lots of counterplay. Obviously I'm punished, I'm saying I'm not punished enough. Do I really need to spell this out? High level Protoss does not require the same level of multitasking, and does not reward the same level of multitasking, as high level Terran or Zerg. Send a Warp Prism across the map to warp in a bunch of Zealots. The Warp Prism died en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 200/0. None of the Zealots were inside. Send two Medivacs across the map to drop a bunch of bio. The Medivacs die en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 1000/200 if they were full of Marines. Literally the exact same multitasking error has cost the Terran 800/200 more than the Protoss for the same basic tactic, because Protoss units can simply bypass the entire map. This is shitty.On the other hand, a well microed Terran drop can achieve things a well microed Zealot warp in could never dream of because the units being warped in have the micro potential of potatoes. This is also shitty.This applies to basically everything about the Protoss race, and these LOTV updates seem to be heading in that same direction all over again. Protoss and Terran are different races. Just because it's different doesn't make it good. Every race should have the same (or as same as possible) multitasking requirement throughout the entire game, with as few "you lose the game because you weren't looking at the right screen at the last second" mechanics as possible.
Multitasking is just one aspect of the mechanical skill required to play SC2. The real goal is to make all the races reward mechanical skill enough such that players always have room for improvement, and LotV really raises the bar for Protoss. The new Warp Prism is just insane and will probably get nerfed at some point, pretty much all of your units have a defensive Blink.
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On March 19 2015 10:20 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 10:18 Caihead wrote:On March 19 2015 10:07 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 10:01 Caihead wrote:On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens. I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays. All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening. I'm sorry but, only 0.01% of the population is as good as Parting during his soul trains. As a community people stick around for that consistent player base who play the game to have fun, and with out that player base you aren't going to get a competitive scene regardless of how good your game is. Are you implying that there is no other way to grow the community apart from making Protoss easier to play? And making WP require less multitasking to use well is the best solution Blizzard could have come up with? I think you're implying that. I don't understand what you are trying to say, you realize that clicking on two immortals with a warp prism has the exact same actual game play difficulty (some might even argue that it's EASIER to click on them if they are closer to the warp prism because you have to move the mouse less) if they are directly under the warp prism or if they are a short distance away? The difference is in LOTV you will have a lot more time to do the clicking. Right now, you have to click in anticiption of the Immortals taking damage, or else your WP might not make it to the Immortal in time once it starts doing damage. In LOTV, as long as your WP isn't literally screens away, you will be able to click purely as a reaction. The micro is the same, the multitasking is FAR more forgiving. Follow? If your WP gets focused by Queens, right now you have a decision to make - do you babysit it to keep it near the Immortals, or send it away and lower the time frame you'll have to pick them up? In LOTV, you will not have to make this decision. Potentially way less micro requirement.
By this logic long range units are much less multi-tasking intensive than short range units because you have more time in anticipation to do something rather than a reaction then? So why is it that long range units are usually the ones with more multi-tasking potential than short range units?
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EPT
