• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:04
CEST 10:04
KST 17:04
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed17Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Who will win EWC 2025? The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion Soulkey Muta Micro Map? [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 636 users

LotV closed beta announced to start on March 31 - Page 22

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
2700 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 20 21 22 23 24 136 Next
Thanks to Reddit sleuths, everyone can try the LotV test maps by following instructions here.

Note: This is not a beta key, it is simply access to Vs. AI and a Unit Tester. I have no idea how cool with this Blizzard is or is not, use at your own risk.
fteneq
Profile Joined August 2012
United States49 Posts
March 19 2015 00:42 GMT
#421
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:
The Protoss changes puzzle me.

It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand that Protoss isn't capable of playing the 6-base economy style they want in LOTV. Adepts won't change that. Disruptors might, but I doubt it. The problem is, if Blizzard isn't entirely prepared for this possibility and it catches them with their pants down, we're going to be looking at more band aid solutions in the form of ezmode spells like Photon Overcharge. Shit like that allows Protoss to function in ways its design says it shouldn't, at the cost of narrowing the skill gap between great Protoss players and mediocre ones.

This leads me to my next point: god damn invulnerability.

Protoss already has pseudo-invulnerability in the form of Warp In which prevents bad players from accidentally losing units while they rally across the entire map, or losing shittons of Zealots in WPs. We need LESS mechanics in the game that are forgiving of poor plays, not MORE.

Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back!

Invulnerable Nydus is ridiculous. Failing to scout against Nydus is basically the same thing as failing to scout against WMs, only instead of losing 2-10 Probes, you lose your entire base.

WPs picking up units from halfway across the screen is way too forgiving of bad plays.

I won't comment on Disruptor invulnerability, it might actually create a lot of micro once we see Protoss and Terrans reacting to one another.

Terran bio still has nothing to tech into other than the occasional couple of Thors. What's so complicated about adding a T3 bio unit?

Still hype though. I just hope that Blizzard is a lot more on top of things than this progression of changes makes it appear.


All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second and save them with two clicks. "Whoopsy daisy!"

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


You are punished, now your immortals are damaged and they're in your warp prism, which they can't do damage from. There should be counter play to everything. Now with those immortals in the warp prism you have to move them back and drop them. Maybe your army just got wrecked without the immortal support. Or maybe their army just pulled back to regroup after the good engagement. Lots of things and lots of counterplay.
"For the Overmind"
Nezgar
Profile Joined December 2012
Germany534 Posts
March 19 2015 00:44 GMT
#422
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:

All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks.

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game.
"Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing.
"OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything".
"Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets."
And the list gets on, you get the idea...

You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens.
Garemie
Profile Joined April 2011
United States248 Posts
March 19 2015 00:48 GMT
#423
This is extremely unexciting for whatever reason.

I feel like Terran is getting hit hard.
Bomber | CJ herO | Snute
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55511 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-19 00:50:19
March 19 2015 00:49 GMT
#424
On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:
Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back!

Their ability takes 10 seconds to teleport them, requires pretty precise timing to get in, out and scout without teleporting yourself into the middle of the opponents base by accident. And if the player has a wall that option also falls flat, at that point I'd let the shade through, close the wall and kill the adept for free honestly.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-19 00:52:05
March 19 2015 00:51 GMT
#425
On March 19 2015 09:42 fteneq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:
The Protoss changes puzzle me.

It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand that Protoss isn't capable of playing the 6-base economy style they want in LOTV. Adepts won't change that. Disruptors might, but I doubt it. The problem is, if Blizzard isn't entirely prepared for this possibility and it catches them with their pants down, we're going to be looking at more band aid solutions in the form of ezmode spells like Photon Overcharge. Shit like that allows Protoss to function in ways its design says it shouldn't, at the cost of narrowing the skill gap between great Protoss players and mediocre ones.

This leads me to my next point: god damn invulnerability.

Protoss already has pseudo-invulnerability in the form of Warp In which prevents bad players from accidentally losing units while they rally across the entire map, or losing shittons of Zealots in WPs. We need LESS mechanics in the game that are forgiving of poor plays, not MORE.

Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back!

Invulnerable Nydus is ridiculous. Failing to scout against Nydus is basically the same thing as failing to scout against WMs, only instead of losing 2-10 Probes, you lose your entire base.

WPs picking up units from halfway across the screen is way too forgiving of bad plays.

I won't comment on Disruptor invulnerability, it might actually create a lot of micro once we see Protoss and Terrans reacting to one another.

Terran bio still has nothing to tech into other than the occasional couple of Thors. What's so complicated about adding a T3 bio unit?

Still hype though. I just hope that Blizzard is a lot more on top of things than this progression of changes makes it appear.


All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second and save them with two clicks. "Whoopsy daisy!"

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


You are punished, now your immortals are damaged and they're in your warp prism, which they can't do damage from. There should be counter play to everything. Now with those immortals in the warp prism you have to move them back and drop them. Maybe your army just got wrecked without the immortal support. Or maybe their army just pulled back to regroup after the good engagement. Lots of things and lots of counterplay.


Obviously I'm punished, I'm saying I'm not punished enough. Do I really need to spell this out?

High level Protoss does not require the same level of multitasking, and does not reward the same level of multitasking, as high level Terran or Zerg.

Send a Warp Prism across the map to warp in a bunch of Zealots. The Warp Prism died en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 200/0. None of the Zealots were inside. Send two Medivacs across the map to drop a bunch of bio. The Medivacs die en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 1000/200 if they were full of Marines. Literally the exact same multitasking error has cost the Terran 800/200 more than the Protoss for the same basic tactic, because Protoss units can simply bypass the entire map. This is shitty.

On the other hand, a well microed Terran drop can achieve things a well microed Zealot warp in could never dream of because the units being warped in have the micro potential of potatoes. This is also shitty.

This applies to basically everything about the Protoss race, and these LOTV updates seem to be heading in that same direction all over again.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
wUndertUnge
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1125 Posts
March 19 2015 00:53 GMT
#426
I want to go to there
Clan: QQGC - wundertunge#1850
TL+ Member
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-19 00:54:46
March 19 2015 00:54 GMT
#427
On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:

All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks.

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game.
"Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing.
"OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything".
"Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets."
And the list gets on, you get the idea...

You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens.


I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays.

All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Daimai
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Sweden762 Posts
March 19 2015 01:00 GMT
#428
On March 19 2015 08:16 xtorn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 02:31 ThomasjServo wrote:
I am glad the toss addition was a gateway unit, have to say.

i respectfully disagree with being glad on this, but hey who the fuck am i -- if the progamers enjoy the change, then by all means
it just seems to me like this race has way too many options of extremely powerful earlygame harass

but hey, ravagers are nice







What? Could you please elaborate? What are those early harass options you speak of?
To pray is to accept defeat.
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
March 19 2015 01:01 GMT
#429
On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:

All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks.

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game.
"Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing.
"OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything".
"Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets."
And the list gets on, you get the idea...

You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens.


I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays.

All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening.


I'm sorry but, only 0.01% of the population is as good as Parting during his soul trains. As a community people stick around for that consistent player base who play the game to have fun, and with out that player base you aren't going to get a competitive scene regardless of how good your game is.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Ottoman042
Profile Joined November 2012
United States35 Posts
March 19 2015 01:05 GMT
#430
1. Tank can fire from medivac
2. Viking/BC can attach to top of medivac for increased spead and protection capabilities
3. Upgrade medivac to whatever the big dropship was in WoL Campaign
4. Can we get some more basic units w/o abilities? having so many abilities per unit just seems not RTS like, more like moba...

And lastly can we get some of the stupid stuff that was removed at the start of WoL back? ex. reaper speed, VR speed, ghost energy upgrade and also the upgrade for HT, tank damage, ghost damage, and all those other things you fucked up with at the start of the game? oh yeah and make sure it's actually balance in 4v4, and not just some shitfeast that abilities cr8? plz blizzard hire some more ppl that actually 'play' the game aswell not just ppl that are good at making crappy ideas. Really I feel that this game is already moving away from RTS and into a more one dimensional game, either you have the counters or you don't and lose, and also there are so many other ways to improve the early game you don't add anything by making it start with more workers, hope you remove that to
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
March 19 2015 01:07 GMT
#431
On March 19 2015 10:01 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:

All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks.

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game.
"Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing.
"OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything".
"Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets."
And the list gets on, you get the idea...

You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens.


I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays.

All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening.


I'm sorry but, only 0.01% of the population is as good as Parting during his soul trains. As a community people stick around for that consistent player base who play the game to have fun, and with out that player base you aren't going to get a competitive scene regardless of how good your game is.


Are you implying that there is no other way to grow the community apart from making Protoss easier to play? And making WP require less multitasking to use well is the best solution Blizzard could have come up with? I think you're implying that.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
KingofdaHipHop
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
United States25602 Posts
March 19 2015 01:09 GMT
#432
4v4 is not the main feature of the game, so they're not gonna balance it around that idea.
Rain | herO | sOs | Dear | Neeb | ByuN | INnoVation | Dream | ForGG | Maru | ByuL | Golden | Solar | Soulkey | Scarlett!!!
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
March 19 2015 01:10 GMT
#433
On March 19 2015 09:51 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 09:42 fteneq wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:
The Protoss changes puzzle me.

It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand that Protoss isn't capable of playing the 6-base economy style they want in LOTV. Adepts won't change that. Disruptors might, but I doubt it. The problem is, if Blizzard isn't entirely prepared for this possibility and it catches them with their pants down, we're going to be looking at more band aid solutions in the form of ezmode spells like Photon Overcharge. Shit like that allows Protoss to function in ways its design says it shouldn't, at the cost of narrowing the skill gap between great Protoss players and mediocre ones.

This leads me to my next point: god damn invulnerability.

Protoss already has pseudo-invulnerability in the form of Warp In which prevents bad players from accidentally losing units while they rally across the entire map, or losing shittons of Zealots in WPs. We need LESS mechanics in the game that are forgiving of poor plays, not MORE.

Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back!

Invulnerable Nydus is ridiculous. Failing to scout against Nydus is basically the same thing as failing to scout against WMs, only instead of losing 2-10 Probes, you lose your entire base.

WPs picking up units from halfway across the screen is way too forgiving of bad plays.

I won't comment on Disruptor invulnerability, it might actually create a lot of micro once we see Protoss and Terrans reacting to one another.

Terran bio still has nothing to tech into other than the occasional couple of Thors. What's so complicated about adding a T3 bio unit?

Still hype though. I just hope that Blizzard is a lot more on top of things than this progression of changes makes it appear.


All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second and save them with two clicks. "Whoopsy daisy!"

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


You are punished, now your immortals are damaged and they're in your warp prism, which they can't do damage from. There should be counter play to everything. Now with those immortals in the warp prism you have to move them back and drop them. Maybe your army just got wrecked without the immortal support. Or maybe their army just pulled back to regroup after the good engagement. Lots of things and lots of counterplay.


Obviously I'm punished, I'm saying I'm not punished enough. Do I really need to spell this out?

High level Protoss does not require the same level of multitasking, and does not reward the same level of multitasking, as high level Terran or Zerg.

Send a Warp Prism across the map to warp in a bunch of Zealots. The Warp Prism died en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 200/0. None of the Zealots were inside. Send two Medivacs across the map to drop a bunch of bio. The Medivacs die en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 1000/200 if they were full of Marines. Literally the exact same multitasking error has cost the Terran 800/200 more than the Protoss for the same basic tactic, because Protoss units can simply bypass the entire map. This is shitty.

On the other hand, a well microed Terran drop can achieve things a well microed Zealot warp in could never dream of because the units being warped in have the micro potential of potatoes. This is also shitty.

This applies to basically everything about the Protoss race, and these LOTV updates seem to be heading in that same direction all over again.

Protoss and Terran are different races. Their drops have different risk/reward and that's fine. Protoss has to risk things like losing a game because of missing one Forcefield. Even drops can be valuable, we've been seeing Colossus drops recently with Zealot warp-ins leaving the Protoss very vulnerable at home and with the potential to do a lot of damage. Adepts and Disruptors both seem like units that will be droppable and super microable too.
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
March 19 2015 01:15 GMT
#434
On March 19 2015 10:10 ZAiNs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 09:51 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:42 fteneq wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:
The Protoss changes puzzle me.

It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand that Protoss isn't capable of playing the 6-base economy style they want in LOTV. Adepts won't change that. Disruptors might, but I doubt it. The problem is, if Blizzard isn't entirely prepared for this possibility and it catches them with their pants down, we're going to be looking at more band aid solutions in the form of ezmode spells like Photon Overcharge. Shit like that allows Protoss to function in ways its design says it shouldn't, at the cost of narrowing the skill gap between great Protoss players and mediocre ones.

This leads me to my next point: god damn invulnerability.

Protoss already has pseudo-invulnerability in the form of Warp In which prevents bad players from accidentally losing units while they rally across the entire map, or losing shittons of Zealots in WPs. We need LESS mechanics in the game that are forgiving of poor plays, not MORE.

Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back!

Invulnerable Nydus is ridiculous. Failing to scout against Nydus is basically the same thing as failing to scout against WMs, only instead of losing 2-10 Probes, you lose your entire base.

WPs picking up units from halfway across the screen is way too forgiving of bad plays.

I won't comment on Disruptor invulnerability, it might actually create a lot of micro once we see Protoss and Terrans reacting to one another.

Terran bio still has nothing to tech into other than the occasional couple of Thors. What's so complicated about adding a T3 bio unit?

Still hype though. I just hope that Blizzard is a lot more on top of things than this progression of changes makes it appear.


All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second and save them with two clicks. "Whoopsy daisy!"

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


You are punished, now your immortals are damaged and they're in your warp prism, which they can't do damage from. There should be counter play to everything. Now with those immortals in the warp prism you have to move them back and drop them. Maybe your army just got wrecked without the immortal support. Or maybe their army just pulled back to regroup after the good engagement. Lots of things and lots of counterplay.


Obviously I'm punished, I'm saying I'm not punished enough. Do I really need to spell this out?

High level Protoss does not require the same level of multitasking, and does not reward the same level of multitasking, as high level Terran or Zerg.

Send a Warp Prism across the map to warp in a bunch of Zealots. The Warp Prism died en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 200/0. None of the Zealots were inside. Send two Medivacs across the map to drop a bunch of bio. The Medivacs die en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 1000/200 if they were full of Marines. Literally the exact same multitasking error has cost the Terran 800/200 more than the Protoss for the same basic tactic, because Protoss units can simply bypass the entire map. This is shitty.

On the other hand, a well microed Terran drop can achieve things a well microed Zealot warp in could never dream of because the units being warped in have the micro potential of potatoes. This is also shitty.

This applies to basically everything about the Protoss race, and these LOTV updates seem to be heading in that same direction all over again.

Protoss and Terran are different races.


Just because it's different doesn't make it good. Every race should have the same (or as same as possible) multitasking requirement throughout the entire game, with as few "you lose the game because you weren't looking at the right screen at the last second" mechanics as possible.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-19 01:22:23
March 19 2015 01:18 GMT
#435
On March 19 2015 10:07 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 10:01 Caihead wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:

All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks.

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game.
"Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing.
"OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything".
"Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets."
And the list gets on, you get the idea...

You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens.


I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays.

All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening.


I'm sorry but, only 0.01% of the population is as good as Parting during his soul trains. As a community people stick around for that consistent player base who play the game to have fun, and with out that player base you aren't going to get a competitive scene regardless of how good your game is.


Are you implying that there is no other way to grow the community apart from making Protoss easier to play? And making WP require less multitasking to use well is the best solution Blizzard could have come up with? I think you're implying that.


I don't understand what you are trying to say, you realize that clicking on two immortals with a warp prism has the exact same actual game play difficulty (some might even argue that it's EASIER to click on them if they are closer to the warp prism because you have to move the mouse less) if they are directly under the warp prism or if they are a short distance away?

Look I will even show you.

With out buff:

Left click warp prism, click on immortals to drop or hot key to drop.
Move commands and stop micro.
"Oh shit my immortals are dying"
Left click select or hotkey immortals, right click on warp prism; or left click warp prism, spam right click on immortals.

With buff

Left click warp prism, click on immortals to drop or hot key to drop.
Move commands and stop micro.
"Oh shit my immortals are dying"
Left click select or hotkey immortals, right click on warp prism; or left click warp prism, spam right click on immortals.

If anything you can argue that this makes it possible for the Protoss to do MORE micro because now they can zone out ground to air fire by hovering over terrain when there's no air vision.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
sdnnvs
Profile Joined June 2011
Brazil33 Posts
March 19 2015 01:20 GMT
#436
zerg is strong now. Good...
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-19 01:22:01
March 19 2015 01:20 GMT
#437
On March 19 2015 10:18 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 10:07 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 10:01 Caihead wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:

All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks.

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game.
"Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing.
"OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything".
"Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets."
And the list gets on, you get the idea...

You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens.


I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays.

All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening.


I'm sorry but, only 0.01% of the population is as good as Parting during his soul trains. As a community people stick around for that consistent player base who play the game to have fun, and with out that player base you aren't going to get a competitive scene regardless of how good your game is.


Are you implying that there is no other way to grow the community apart from making Protoss easier to play? And making WP require less multitasking to use well is the best solution Blizzard could have come up with? I think you're implying that.


I don't understand what you are trying to say, you realize that clicking on two immortals with a warp prism has the exact same actual game play difficulty (some might even argue that it's EASIER to click on them if they are closer to the warp prism because you have to move the mouse less) if they are directly under the warp prism or if they are a short distance away?


The difference is in LOTV you will have a lot more time to do the clicking. Right now, you have to click in anticiption of the Immortals taking damage, or else your WP might not make it to the Immortal in time once it starts doing damage. In LOTV, as long as your WP isn't literally screens away, you will be able to click purely as a reaction.

The micro is the same, the multitasking is FAR more forgiving. Follow?

If your WP gets focused by Queens, right now you have a decision to make - do you babysit it to keep it near the Immortals, or send it away and lower the time frame you'll have to pick them up? In LOTV, you will not have to make this decision.

Potentially way less micro requirement.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19231 Posts
March 19 2015 01:21 GMT
#438
I'm very excited by all their explanations. Blizzard really wants LoTV to be a success and I hope everyone who gets in closed beta gives positive and healthy feedback.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
March 19 2015 01:21 GMT
#439
On March 19 2015 10:15 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 10:10 ZAiNs wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:51 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:42 fteneq wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
On March 19 2015 08:59 pure.Wasted wrote:
The Protoss changes puzzle me.

It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand that Protoss isn't capable of playing the 6-base economy style they want in LOTV. Adepts won't change that. Disruptors might, but I doubt it. The problem is, if Blizzard isn't entirely prepared for this possibility and it catches them with their pants down, we're going to be looking at more band aid solutions in the form of ezmode spells like Photon Overcharge. Shit like that allows Protoss to function in ways its design says it shouldn't, at the cost of narrowing the skill gap between great Protoss players and mediocre ones.

This leads me to my next point: god damn invulnerability.

Protoss already has pseudo-invulnerability in the form of Warp In which prevents bad players from accidentally losing units while they rally across the entire map, or losing shittons of Zealots in WPs. We need LESS mechanics in the game that are forgiving of poor plays, not MORE.

Now Adepts can just A+move into an enemy base, oops turns out there's a whole army there that would have killed these Adepts if they had HP, and we could have known this if we had scouted before hand but we didn't scout? No problem! Adepts can't die! Move 'em on back!

Invulnerable Nydus is ridiculous. Failing to scout against Nydus is basically the same thing as failing to scout against WMs, only instead of losing 2-10 Probes, you lose your entire base.

WPs picking up units from halfway across the screen is way too forgiving of bad plays.

I won't comment on Disruptor invulnerability, it might actually create a lot of micro once we see Protoss and Terrans reacting to one another.

Terran bio still has nothing to tech into other than the occasional couple of Thors. What's so complicated about adding a T3 bio unit?

Still hype though. I just hope that Blizzard is a lot more on top of things than this progression of changes makes it appear.


All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second and save them with two clicks. "Whoopsy daisy!"

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


You are punished, now your immortals are damaged and they're in your warp prism, which they can't do damage from. There should be counter play to everything. Now with those immortals in the warp prism you have to move them back and drop them. Maybe your army just got wrecked without the immortal support. Or maybe their army just pulled back to regroup after the good engagement. Lots of things and lots of counterplay.


Obviously I'm punished, I'm saying I'm not punished enough. Do I really need to spell this out?

High level Protoss does not require the same level of multitasking, and does not reward the same level of multitasking, as high level Terran or Zerg.

Send a Warp Prism across the map to warp in a bunch of Zealots. The Warp Prism died en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 200/0. None of the Zealots were inside. Send two Medivacs across the map to drop a bunch of bio. The Medivacs die en route because you weren't paying attention. You lose 1000/200 if they were full of Marines. Literally the exact same multitasking error has cost the Terran 800/200 more than the Protoss for the same basic tactic, because Protoss units can simply bypass the entire map. This is shitty.

On the other hand, a well microed Terran drop can achieve things a well microed Zealot warp in could never dream of because the units being warped in have the micro potential of potatoes. This is also shitty.

This applies to basically everything about the Protoss race, and these LOTV updates seem to be heading in that same direction all over again.

Protoss and Terran are different races.


Just because it's different doesn't make it good. Every race should have the same (or as same as possible) multitasking requirement throughout the entire game, with as few "you lose the game because you weren't looking at the right screen at the last second" mechanics as possible.

Multitasking is just one aspect of the mechanical skill required to play SC2. The real goal is to make all the races reward mechanical skill enough such that players always have room for improvement, and LotV really raises the bar for Protoss. The new Warp Prism is just insane and will probably get nerfed at some point, pretty much all of your units have a defensive Blink.
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
March 19 2015 01:24 GMT
#440
On March 19 2015 10:20 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 10:18 Caihead wrote:
On March 19 2015 10:07 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 10:01 Caihead wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:

All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different.


If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks.

It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished.


This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game.
"Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing.
"OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything".
"Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets."
And the list gets on, you get the idea...

You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens.


I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays.

All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening.


I'm sorry but, only 0.01% of the population is as good as Parting during his soul trains. As a community people stick around for that consistent player base who play the game to have fun, and with out that player base you aren't going to get a competitive scene regardless of how good your game is.


Are you implying that there is no other way to grow the community apart from making Protoss easier to play? And making WP require less multitasking to use well is the best solution Blizzard could have come up with? I think you're implying that.


I don't understand what you are trying to say, you realize that clicking on two immortals with a warp prism has the exact same actual game play difficulty (some might even argue that it's EASIER to click on them if they are closer to the warp prism because you have to move the mouse less) if they are directly under the warp prism or if they are a short distance away?


The difference is in LOTV you will have a lot more time to do the clicking. Right now, you have to click in anticiption of the Immortals taking damage, or else your WP might not make it to the Immortal in time once it starts doing damage. In LOTV, as long as your WP isn't literally screens away, you will be able to click purely as a reaction.

The micro is the same, the multitasking is FAR more forgiving. Follow?

If your WP gets focused by Queens, right now you have a decision to make - do you babysit it to keep it near the Immortals, or send it away and lower the time frame you'll have to pick them up? In LOTV, you will not have to make this decision.

Potentially way less micro requirement.


By this logic long range units are much less multi-tasking intensive than short range units because you have more time in anticipation to do something rather than a reaction then? So why is it that long range units are usually the ones with more multi-tasking potential than short range units?
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Prev 1 20 21 22 23 24 136 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 56m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 290
trigger 10
StarCraft: Brood War
Backho 197
Soma 192
Barracks 138
Dewaltoss 90
sorry 46
ajuk12(nOOB) 33
Shine 17
Dota 2
ODPixel674
XcaliburYe518
League of Legends
JimRising 663
Super Smash Bros
Westballz34
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor158
Other Games
summit1g6022
Fuzer 138
SortOf101
Trikslyr28
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2808
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH314
• practicex 34
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2172
League of Legends
• Lourlo1763
• Stunt570
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
1h 56m
Epic.LAN
3h 56m
CSO Contender
8h 56m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 1h
Online Event
1d 7h
Esports World Cup
3 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
4 days
Esports World Cup
5 days
Esports World Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
Championship of Russia 2025
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.