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Thanks to Reddit sleuths, everyone can try the LotV test maps by following instructions here. Note: This is not a beta key, it is simply access to Vs. AI and a Unit Tester. I have no idea how cool with this Blizzard is or is not, use at your own risk. |
On March 19 2015 12:16 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 11:14 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens. I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays. All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening. Really good multitasking pro Terrans were doing great with their medivac drops in HotS, the speedboost only allows more Terrans to be as good as [insert pro Terran here]. As I said, you could say almost the same about almost every unit/mechanic in the game. Do you see where this is heading? Your argument is flawed... You would even be right if the races had started in an equivalent place in terms of mechanical requirements. Unfortunately, they did not, so the convenience of Medivac boost, such as it is, is a meager drop in the bucket compared to the magnitude of differences between Protoss and Terran. There's really no reason to continue butting heads over this. You think Protoss is more or less fine. I think Protoss ranges from tolerable to complete trash. Blizzard is in some very vague and undefined area between the two of us, they've been explicitly trying to make Protoss more mechanically demanding for two expansions in a row, but they really haven't done much, so it's an open question whether they just suck at solving this problem, or they're too scared to do it right, or they don't think the race needs as many changes as many players do. I think we can safely agree to disagree. My prognosis and expectations are on the record, for whatever little that's worth.
I think you are mistaking a buff to a fundamental reduction in player skill or race design or what ever... Giving players a tool where they can actually harass with immortals or other expensive units in a warp prism instead of the same old zealot warp-ins is a buff, you make it sound like people who were previously diamond could suddenly compete with master's league players, when at the same time it raises the skill cap of people who exploit it to the highest degree, so the previous master's league players are stomping even harder. It's not like they made a change where the warp prism automatically picks up hurt units with in a radius, you still have to issue the exact same mechanical commands to the same units.
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On March 19 2015 12:52 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 12:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 11:14 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens. I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays. All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening. Really good multitasking pro Terrans were doing great with their medivac drops in HotS, the speedboost only allows more Terrans to be as good as [insert pro Terran here]. As I said, you could say almost the same about almost every unit/mechanic in the game. Do you see where this is heading? Your argument is flawed... You would even be right if the races had started in an equivalent place in terms of mechanical requirements. Unfortunately, they did not, so the convenience of Medivac boost, such as it is, is a meager drop in the bucket compared to the magnitude of differences between Protoss and Terran. There's really no reason to continue butting heads over this. You think Protoss is more or less fine. I think Protoss ranges from tolerable to complete trash. Blizzard is in some very vague and undefined area between the two of us, they've been explicitly trying to make Protoss more mechanically demanding for two expansions in a row, but they really haven't done much, so it's an open question whether they just suck at solving this problem, or they're too scared to do it right, or they don't think the race needs as many changes as many players do. I think we can safely agree to disagree. My prognosis and expectations are on the record, for whatever little that's worth. I think you are mistaking a buff to a fundamental reduction in player skill or race design or what ever... Giving players a tool where they can actually harass with immortals or other expensive units in a warp prism instead of the same old zealot warp-ins is a buff, you make it sound like people who were previously diamond could suddenly compete with master's league players, when at the same time it raises the skill cap of people who exploit it to the highest degree, so the previous master's league players are stomping even harder. It's not like they made a change where the warp prism automatically picks up hurt units with in a radius, you still have to issue the exact same mechanical commands to the same units.
So what? Even if you're right and PartinG finds a way to create some amazing plays out of this new WP, we're still stuck with easier to use WPs and I don't want easier to use WPs. We had over half a year of very mediocre Protoss players coin flipping their way into victories they didn't deserve in 2014. I want every single change made to the Protoss race, at this point, to be moving away from that direction as fast as possible and as much as possible. This does not do that.
This will allow crappy Protoss to Soul Train good Zergs and get victories they didn't deserve. I suppose it's meant to balance out with the fact that the new Nydus will allow crappy Zergs to bumrush good Protoss and get victories they didn't work hard for, either. But that level of volatility is not what I want in SC2.
User was warned for this post
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37043 Posts
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nah look zerg air vs air is still trash
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On March 19 2015 13:04 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 12:52 Caihead wrote:On March 19 2015 12:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 11:14 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens. I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays. All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening. Really good multitasking pro Terrans were doing great with their medivac drops in HotS, the speedboost only allows more Terrans to be as good as [insert pro Terran here]. As I said, you could say almost the same about almost every unit/mechanic in the game. Do you see where this is heading? Your argument is flawed... You would even be right if the races had started in an equivalent place in terms of mechanical requirements. Unfortunately, they did not, so the convenience of Medivac boost, such as it is, is a meager drop in the bucket compared to the magnitude of differences between Protoss and Terran. There's really no reason to continue butting heads over this. You think Protoss is more or less fine. I think Protoss ranges from tolerable to complete trash. Blizzard is in some very vague and undefined area between the two of us, they've been explicitly trying to make Protoss more mechanically demanding for two expansions in a row, but they really haven't done much, so it's an open question whether they just suck at solving this problem, or they're too scared to do it right, or they don't think the race needs as many changes as many players do. I think we can safely agree to disagree. My prognosis and expectations are on the record, for whatever little that's worth. I think you are mistaking a buff to a fundamental reduction in player skill or race design or what ever... Giving players a tool where they can actually harass with immortals or other expensive units in a warp prism instead of the same old zealot warp-ins is a buff, you make it sound like people who were previously diamond could suddenly compete with master's league players, when at the same time it raises the skill cap of people who exploit it to the highest degree, so the previous master's league players are stomping even harder. It's not like they made a change where the warp prism automatically picks up hurt units with in a radius, you still have to issue the exact same mechanical commands to the same units. So what? Even if you're right and PartinG finds a way to create some amazing plays out of this new WP, we're still stuck with easier to use WPs and I don't want easier to use WPs. We had over half a year of very mediocre Protoss players coin flipping their way into victories they didn't deserve in 2014. I want every single change made to the Protoss race, at this point, to be moving away from that direction as fast as possible and as much as possible. This does not do that. This will allow crappy Protoss to Soul Train good Zergs and get victories they didn't deserve. I suppose it's meant to balance out with the fact that the new Nydus will allow crappy Zergs to bumrush good Protoss and get victories they didn't work hard for, either. But that level of volatility is not what I want in SC2.
The source of the issue is that you seriously think 'mediocre Protoss players' won tournaments by 'coinflipping'.
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Sorry Terran players, you receive nothing that will change your style of play. Enjoy playing TvP in the same style you have since 2010! Oh, and watch out for all the new Protoss BS.
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On March 19 2015 13:04 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 12:52 Caihead wrote:On March 19 2015 12:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 11:14 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens. I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays. All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening. Really good multitasking pro Terrans were doing great with their medivac drops in HotS, the speedboost only allows more Terrans to be as good as [insert pro Terran here]. As I said, you could say almost the same about almost every unit/mechanic in the game. Do you see where this is heading? Your argument is flawed... You would even be right if the races had started in an equivalent place in terms of mechanical requirements. Unfortunately, they did not, so the convenience of Medivac boost, such as it is, is a meager drop in the bucket compared to the magnitude of differences between Protoss and Terran. There's really no reason to continue butting heads over this. You think Protoss is more or less fine. I think Protoss ranges from tolerable to complete trash. Blizzard is in some very vague and undefined area between the two of us, they've been explicitly trying to make Protoss more mechanically demanding for two expansions in a row, but they really haven't done much, so it's an open question whether they just suck at solving this problem, or they're too scared to do it right, or they don't think the race needs as many changes as many players do. I think we can safely agree to disagree. My prognosis and expectations are on the record, for whatever little that's worth. I think you are mistaking a buff to a fundamental reduction in player skill or race design or what ever... Giving players a tool where they can actually harass with immortals or other expensive units in a warp prism instead of the same old zealot warp-ins is a buff, you make it sound like people who were previously diamond could suddenly compete with master's league players, when at the same time it raises the skill cap of people who exploit it to the highest degree, so the previous master's league players are stomping even harder. It's not like they made a change where the warp prism automatically picks up hurt units with in a radius, you still have to issue the exact same mechanical commands to the same units. So what? Even if you're right and PartinG finds a way to create some amazing plays out of this new WP, we're still stuck with easier to use WPs and I don't want easier to use WPs. We had over half a year of very mediocre Protoss players coin flipping their way into victories they didn't deserve in 2014. I want every single change made to the Protoss race, at this point, to be moving away from that direction as fast as possible and as much as possible. This does not do that. This will allow crappy Protoss to Soul Train good Zergs and get victories they didn't deserve. I suppose it's meant to balance out with the fact that the new Nydus will allow crappy Zergs to bumrush good Protoss and get victories they didn't work hard for, either. But that level of volatility is not what I want in SC2.
With new economy, ravager, warp gate change etc, soul train would be least of the concern.
Warp prism buff makes a lot of sense, I would say medivac speed buff in hots is much worse of a buff
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On March 19 2015 13:54 NKexquisite wrote:
Sorry Terran players, you receive nothing that will change your style of play. Enjoy playing TvP in the same style you have since 2010! Oh, and watch out for all the new Protoss BS.
what did protoss get in hots? at least you guys were able to use widow mines in ur comp.. we were still stuck with gate units + collosus. oracles are a harass unit and tempests are situational, we didnt get core a midd-late game unit like terran and zerg did (swarmhost/viper/mine/hellbat). pretty sure we got the short end of the stick in hots.
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On March 19 2015 12:25 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 12:16 Vasoline73 wrote:
Welp... finally time to give up the SC2 could be the next bigger and better BW dream. Nothing about any of the units is exciting *TO ME.* Always time for SC3 and... a different dev team philosophy. Every other eSport from here on is going to be far more casual than SC2. eSports are going to be designed around monetization and skins before gameplay.
Very solid and sadly likely truthful point sir. But we can *hippy voice* dreeeeaaaammmmmm mannnnnnnnn...
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On March 19 2015 14:04 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 13:54 NKexquisite wrote:
Sorry Terran players, you receive nothing that will change your style of play. Enjoy playing TvP in the same style you have since 2010! Oh, and watch out for all the new Protoss BS. what did protoss get in hots? at least you guys were able to use widow mines in ur comp.. we were still stuck with gate units + collosus. oracles are a harass unit and tempests are situational, we didnt get core a midd-late game unit like terran and zerg did (swarmhost/viper/mine/hellbat). pretty sure we got the short end of the stick in hots.
Terran is still marine/marauder/medivac at the highest level in 90% of games. It has been since day 1 of WoL. Are you disputing that?
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Blizzard wrote:
If you use the game clock, you’ll notice it’s ticking much slower in the Legacy of the Void beta. We’ve changed the rate of time passage to match what you’d expect from a regular clock.
Hell, it's about time.
(Really liking this change, seriously it was dumb to make the default ladder clock be non-standard seconds.)
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On March 19 2015 13:53 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 13:04 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 12:52 Caihead wrote:On March 19 2015 12:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 11:14 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens. I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays. All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening. Really good multitasking pro Terrans were doing great with their medivac drops in HotS, the speedboost only allows more Terrans to be as good as [insert pro Terran here]. As I said, you could say almost the same about almost every unit/mechanic in the game. Do you see where this is heading? Your argument is flawed... You would even be right if the races had started in an equivalent place in terms of mechanical requirements. Unfortunately, they did not, so the convenience of Medivac boost, such as it is, is a meager drop in the bucket compared to the magnitude of differences between Protoss and Terran. There's really no reason to continue butting heads over this. You think Protoss is more or less fine. I think Protoss ranges from tolerable to complete trash. Blizzard is in some very vague and undefined area between the two of us, they've been explicitly trying to make Protoss more mechanically demanding for two expansions in a row, but they really haven't done much, so it's an open question whether they just suck at solving this problem, or they're too scared to do it right, or they don't think the race needs as many changes as many players do. I think we can safely agree to disagree. My prognosis and expectations are on the record, for whatever little that's worth. I think you are mistaking a buff to a fundamental reduction in player skill or race design or what ever... Giving players a tool where they can actually harass with immortals or other expensive units in a warp prism instead of the same old zealot warp-ins is a buff, you make it sound like people who were previously diamond could suddenly compete with master's league players, when at the same time it raises the skill cap of people who exploit it to the highest degree, so the previous master's league players are stomping even harder. It's not like they made a change where the warp prism automatically picks up hurt units with in a radius, you still have to issue the exact same mechanical commands to the same units. So what? Even if you're right and PartinG finds a way to create some amazing plays out of this new WP, we're still stuck with easier to use WPs and I don't want easier to use WPs. We had over half a year of very mediocre Protoss players coin flipping their way into victories they didn't deserve in 2014. I want every single change made to the Protoss race, at this point, to be moving away from that direction as fast as possible and as much as possible. This does not do that. This will allow crappy Protoss to Soul Train good Zergs and get victories they didn't deserve. I suppose it's meant to balance out with the fact that the new Nydus will allow crappy Zergs to bumrush good Protoss and get victories they didn't work hard for, either. But that level of volatility is not what I want in SC2. The source of the issue is that you seriously think 'mediocre Protoss players' won tournaments by 'coinflipping'.
There's no point arguing about this. You think that Protoss has always had an adequate mechanical skill requirement. I don't think it ever came close. We've both had 5 years to be persuaded to the other side and it hasn't happened, I doubt it's going to happen tonight.
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On March 19 2015 13:04 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 12:52 Caihead wrote:On March 19 2015 12:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 11:14 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:44 Nezgar wrote:On March 19 2015 09:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 09:15 H0i wrote:
All these 'forgiving' arguments barely make sense. Like how is a warp prism with big pickup range forgiving? The players know the stats of the units and how they work, and how to respond to them. The players always try to get the maximum out of it. It's simply a buff to drops, and it will change how it must be defended against, but within that new meta you can still make mistakes and thus not make the best out of the situation. If the game is balanced around these new situations, then they aren't forgiving, just different. If I'm doing a Soul Train and my multitasking is so bad that I forget to trail my Immortals with my Warp Prisms, allowing my Immortals to get surrounded and sniped... they should get sniped. I shouldn't be able to notice it at the last second, scream "OH SHIT NO!" at the screen, and save them with two clicks. It's too late. I didn't multitask. I should be punished. This makes no sense... You could say the same about almost every unit in the game. "Oh, I stimmed my bio too much!" => you have medivacs healing. "OH SHIT I flew my medivacs into a bunch of stalkers while not paying attention or sucking in general, glad I can speedboost out of there instead of losing everything". "Oh, I forgot my detection. Good thing my Orbital can scan cloaked units for when I forget to build turrets." And the list gets on, you get the idea... You could also say that the new warp prism ability allows good protoss players too keep their prism out of range of queens while still being able to micro with it instead of having it stay behind due to the risk of losing it against too many queens. I haven't seen PartinG struggle too much with keeping his WPs sufficiently alive to pull off his plays. All this will do is allow more Protoss to be as good as PartinG. He's already good enough to not need this to make his Soul Train better. The skill gap narrows instead of widening. Really good multitasking pro Terrans were doing great with their medivac drops in HotS, the speedboost only allows more Terrans to be as good as [insert pro Terran here]. As I said, you could say almost the same about almost every unit/mechanic in the game. Do you see where this is heading? Your argument is flawed... You would even be right if the races had started in an equivalent place in terms of mechanical requirements. Unfortunately, they did not, so the convenience of Medivac boost, such as it is, is a meager drop in the bucket compared to the magnitude of differences between Protoss and Terran. There's really no reason to continue butting heads over this. You think Protoss is more or less fine. I think Protoss ranges from tolerable to complete trash. Blizzard is in some very vague and undefined area between the two of us, they've been explicitly trying to make Protoss more mechanically demanding for two expansions in a row, but they really haven't done much, so it's an open question whether they just suck at solving this problem, or they're too scared to do it right, or they don't think the race needs as many changes as many players do. I think we can safely agree to disagree. My prognosis and expectations are on the record, for whatever little that's worth. I think you are mistaking a buff to a fundamental reduction in player skill or race design or what ever... Giving players a tool where they can actually harass with immortals or other expensive units in a warp prism instead of the same old zealot warp-ins is a buff, you make it sound like people who were previously diamond could suddenly compete with master's league players, when at the same time it raises the skill cap of people who exploit it to the highest degree, so the previous master's league players are stomping even harder. It's not like they made a change where the warp prism automatically picks up hurt units with in a radius, you still have to issue the exact same mechanical commands to the same units. So what? Even if you're right and PartinG finds a way to create some amazing plays out of this new WP, we're still stuck with easier to use WPs and I don't want easier to use WPs. We had over half a year of very mediocre Protoss players coin flipping their way into victories they didn't deserve in 2014. I want every single change made to the Protoss race, at this point, to be moving away from that direction as fast as possible and as much as possible. This does not do that. This will allow crappy Protoss to Soul Train good Zergs and get victories they didn't deserve. I suppose it's meant to balance out with the fact that the new Nydus will allow crappy Zergs to bumrush good Protoss and get victories they didn't work hard for, either. But that level of volatility is not what I want in SC2.
I think for the situation that you are describing, you are exactly right... it will be more forgiving and require less micro. However, we can't really predict what NEW strategies warp prism micro will expose that we haven't thought of yet, because of the range increase. These new strategies now possible in LOTV, will be push the edge of the new ability, be difficult and require new levels of micro skills. So one strat becomes easier yet enables entirely new strats which are cutting-edge and difficult.
Yes Protoss gets more OP, but like you even mentioned yourself, things like ravagers, nydus, flying locust, medivac siege tanks, etc are also OP. So we have a great big ball of OPness that is SC2. If everything is overpowered, nothing is. It just depends on whether an OP strat can be countered or at least counter-balanced with another. It may seem volatile at the start but will balance out as players learn to counter, learn to deal with it, and maybe a balance tweak or two along the way. How was this any different from when HOTS was released? Not at all in my view.
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This is what happens when you remove Browder. Browder single handedly ruined SC2. Now that we got a better guy on the job, he's cleaning house with Browder's bullshit and making the game great.
Lurker is back. You need to expand more. It is harder to defend those expansion. More units have targetable abilities and harassment has not only become more crucial, but easier to pull off. And the big fucking thing is that Blizzard has clearly aimed to simply remove turtling from the game. Everything that let you turtle got "reworked" to be a siege unit instead. What an amazing expansion.
Good riddance. Let's celebrate a new beginning to SC2.
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IMO, if Blizzard were a lot more flexible with giving mapmakers more freedom to design unique resource placements/expansions on eventual ladder maps, it would be a bigger "feature" than what they're currently changing with the mineral and gas counts. It would be cool to see half-expansions and other fancy expansion designs accepted more.
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On March 19 2015 14:27 ElMeanYo wrote:
Yes Protoss gets more OP, but like you even mentioned yourself, things like ravagers, nydus, flying locust, medivac siege tanks, etc are also OP. So we have a great big ball of OPness that is SC2. If everything is overpowered, nothing is.
A fine approach if the races are starting on an even playing field, but according to David Kim, they're not.
Q: What are your thoughts on the opinion that there needs to be more of a micro-controlling aspect and the controls now are too automated and easy?
A: We feel that some of this problem has been shown among the Protoss players where there was less of a difference in terms of control between the very top and mid to top tier players.
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On March 19 2015 14:26 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 13:53 ZAiNs wrote:
The source of the issue is that you seriously think 'mediocre Protoss players' won tournaments by 'coinflipping'. There's no point arguing about this. You think that Protoss has always had an adequate mechanical skill requirement. I don't think it ever came close. We've both had 5 years to be persuaded to the other side and it hasn't happened, I doubt it's going to happen tonight.
Oh, this is now the way you want this to go?
Do you really want to argue that Protoss was always so OP that lesser players were able to compete with the rest just by playing Protoss? Seriously? For the last 5 years?
I'm done, you have reached the same level as people like nunez or zeo. There's no point in discussing things with you...
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On March 19 2015 04:20 Redfish wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 03:06 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 19 2015 03:05 Redfish wrote:
Nydus worms unable to take damage until they're done spawning? So a Zerg can create it right in range of a Photon cannon with impunity? What on earth?
Here come the Ravager/Nydus rushes to crush any hope of Protoss playing for an economic opening. If neither Forcefields nor solid base defense can keep enemies out, then what else can we be expected to rely on to survive? Nydus being expensive? I don't like the full invulnerability either, seems like a failsafe way to deal damage... The cost for a Nydus + Worm is 250/300, which is really nothing. For comparison's sake, it's significantly less to Nydus your whole army in than it costs for a Protoss to build a single Void Ray. It also builds extraordinarily fast and costs no supply. All of that said, I agree that failsafe ways to do damage are poor game design decisions. I feel like fully scouting something and having the tech to stop it yet still taking some amount of damage anyways (like a Widow Mine drop opener - it's not IF you're going to lose probes, but if you're going to lose just 1-2 or your entire mineral line) is silly. To take it even further, I think that drops and harassment are already too good, and adding more into the game is awful. Mutalisks wrecking bases and healing too fast, Terran doom drops with Medivacs that boost for nothing, Warp Prisms warping in a dozen gateway units at once - enough already. Skirmishes and smaller fights around the map should be what LotV focuses on, not more ways to give droppers or harassers the advantage over defenders, which they already have too much of.
So much this last bit. Why is blizzard so hell-bent on making cliffs nothing more than scenery? With the economy changes people will have to spread out around the map more anyway, being able to lift your entire army into your opponent's main for free won't encourage multi-tasking, it will just be super frustrating.
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On March 19 2015 15:15 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 14:26 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 19 2015 13:53 ZAiNs wrote:
The source of the issue is that you seriously think 'mediocre Protoss players' won tournaments by 'coinflipping'. There's no point arguing about this. You think that Protoss has always had an adequate mechanical skill requirement. I don't think it ever came close. We've both had 5 years to be persuaded to the other side and it hasn't happened, I doubt it's going to happen tonight. Oh, this is now the way you want this to go? Do you really want to argue that Protoss was always so OP that lesser players were able to compete with the rest just by playing Protoss? Seriously? For the last 5 years? I'm done, you have reached the same level as people like nunez or zeo. There's no point in discussing things with you...
You have the reading comprehension of a toothbrush. When did I once use the word "OP" in the two pages I've spent in this thread? A game can be balanced and still perfectly idiotic.
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On March 19 2015 13:41 laaaaaaaamee wrote:
nah look zerg air vs air is still trash
lol,the Viper looks pretty good to me...also the Adept looks awesome and fun to use ^^
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EPT
