EPT[Patch 9.16] Pantheon Rework General Discussion - Page 2
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
Point and click stuns are good for the health of the game tbh, with how much mobility there is. Mobility creep has just become unbearable by this point. Once upon a time Yasuo would laugh in your face because he can theoretically outplay 99% of champions, these days good Akali players can somehow kite around ranged champions without taking damage, Zoe kills you from a screen away. And the only point click root/stun I can think of is Ryze, which has been greatly nerfed in his latest changes. I enjoy the mechanical aspect of the game, but it's gotten a bit overkill. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Anecdotally, on live servers I personally have an unsustainably high 70.8% winrate over 24 games playing him mostly in the jungle. Part of that is I had only played 50 ranked games before his release, and thus was likely not at my "true MMR", part of that is I spammed games with him on the PBE when he was released, and I think a large part of it is that a lot of players aren't really used to playing on a clock or so aggressively as pantheon can get away with. I dont think a lot of people understand or are comfortable hard diving a tower at level 3 (or even level 2, if you cheese start WE), but if you have eyes on the enemy jungler there is no reason you can't just go take 3-4 tower shots and create a huge lead. It is kinda dirty, tbh. I expect to see it in pro play; it kind of feels to me like Yuumi in that its like a 44% winrate in soloqueue but as a concept it is broken to the point of pick ban in coordinated play. Idk, maybe I'm over rating it, but no other champion in the game can do that at level 3 let alone level 2. On top of that, the point and click stun, and the stronger execute on Q you can really just snowball a lane quite hard early; especially if your lane is strong and/or has some play making ability as well. Although, a large part of what makes this broken is that the jungle is kinda fundamentally busted in that jungle creeps have such low value in terms of XP and gold than this kind of hard ganking can't really be punished... He farms kinda slow. He's kind of weak 1v1 at the moment vs most junglers, in my opinion, but his skirmishing is so strong. If you time your E well its just so incredibly dirty how balls to the wall risky you can be diving and drawing threat, and then buying time with your E for your team to clean. Usually you are able to absorb 2 to 4 abilities with E, and at that point you just kind of win any fight. I think Conquerer is the best rune on him, because it helps the most with 1v1's and thats where he is weakest, imo. Raw stats say in jungle PtA is superior, however. It is weird though, even when you're obscenely fed, you kind of just feel like you do no damage. I've never felt weaker being 8/0 before, that being said, I think it is relatively easy to create that kind of lead on him. I'm not sure I like it, I feel like if I'm legendary and you're feeding I should be able to one shot you, not tickle you. I'd prefer perhaps having less defensive power in E but better dueling and damage scaling, but perhaps that is just not meant to be. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Slap flashy visual effects on his ult to hide that you're removing its actual zoning/dunking usage and call it a day, most of reddit barely knew he existed before so they don't notice a thing and love him. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4768 Posts
I sometimes played this Stormrazor Shiv build where I would just go ham on the first guy I caught and would be able to slow 4 extra people in the process possibly. His dives, his skirmishes, his auto deflection, it was all good stuff. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
The thing that actually sucks about the Ryze change is because E is a projectile Yasuo can effectively block your enhanced W, and movespeed reductions don’t effect his e(maybe they should) it actually flipped the matchup vs good Yasuos who don’t let you chunk them to half for standing in the wave. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Worth noting you can cancel Q animation with E/tiamat and W empowered auto animation with Q/E/tiamat, which is pretty juicy. Idk that you ever really want tiamat on him, but... That's besides the point. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35145 Posts
On August 21 2019 02:24 iCanada wrote: Yeah. He's not pantheon, imo. Been thinking of calling him something else, because he's just... Way different. Worth noting you can cancel Q animation with E/tiamat and W empowered auto animation with Q/E/tiamat, which is pretty juicy. Idk that you ever really want tiamat on him, but... That's besides the point. The Aatrox mains subreddit calls new Aatrox "Boris". | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Am I out to lunch that being able to point and click stun + tank 2 to 4 tower shots at level 2/3 is broken for high level play? I just imagine say Fakers LeBlanc getting a level 2 kill under tower and a repeat gank when his opponent gets back to lane just kind of making the game over. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
 I think it depends on how weak his early 1v1 potential is. If history is anything to go by the earlygame spamgankers that have been popular have all been good duelists or have a super easy way to escape any sticky situations (Camille). If both his 1v1 and clear is weak it seem to me like a very risky pick in proplay where the rewards might not outweight the risks. If both are 'too' weak I dont think he will be a viable blind pickable jungler but I could see it as option vs the afk until 6 kinda champs like Skarner. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On August 22 2019 04:07 Jek wrote: Elise can do the same but she clears fast and is a great 1v1 champ early. I think it depends on how weak his early 1v1 potential is. If history is anything to go by the earlygame spamgankers that have been popular have all been good duelists or have a super easy way to escape any sticky situations (Camille). If both his 1v1 and clear is weak it seem to me like a very risky pick in proplay where the rewards might not outweight the risks. If both are 'too' weak I dont think he will be a viable blind pickable jungler but I could see it as option vs the afk until 6 kinda champs like Skarner. I don't think his clear is that weak. Also I think it's disingenuous to compare Elise that way, because one his is longer and two she's not actually tanking it, she's letting her lane get hit instead. It's also easier to layer CC with Pantheon, doesn't require an initial skillshot to land for the gank to work. Its weird RE dueling, I think he's Strong at 1 and 2, then he falls off unless you can win the E mindgame just because of how passive gated he is. His clear is a touch weak at the moment. I'd put it at same level as Sejuani. Not great, but like I don't think you should be executing or anything. That's my only big complaint, aside from feel really, is how much gameplay revolves around passive; to use riot terminology, it doesn't feel like using his passive separates the good pantheon players from the bad, but more like those that should be allowed to pick it without their team dodging and intentional feeders. If you won't conceivably have it up in a fight you'll lose. Which leads to spot picking which feels decidedly unspartan. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
I would probably rather just play Volibear in all situations I previously picked pantheon (until Voli rework lul) | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
That to me is an aggravating factor more than anything. I'd be ok using that power elsewhere. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On August 22 2019 04:41 iCanada wrote: I don't think his clear is that weak. Also I think it's disingenuous to compare Elise that way, because one his is longer and two she's not actually tanking it, she's letting her lane get hit instead. It's also easier to layer CC with Pantheon, doesn't require an initial skillshot to land for the gank to work. I was being way unclear about what I meant. My bad. What I tried to say was we already have seen what a jungler capable of succesfully dive at level 2/3 can do, Pantheon in that regard isn't new. It wasn't meant as a direct comparison as such, I just suck at english. The ability to dive early has always been highly valued/abused (OG jungle Alistar anyone?) whenever the jungler was viable in the meta. On August 22 2019 22:46 iCanada wrote: Agreed. They dumpsters his ult. The one that really gets me is that your team no longer gets an advanced warning you're coming, you suprise them just as much as you surprise the other team. Which is just... Yikes. That to me is an aggravating factor more than anything. I'd be ok using that power elsewhere. Doesn't his ult ping at the location when he uses it? I think it's the least problem with it, you can always just spam ping - that's what I do whenever I have a global ult. I dont know if it's just me, but the landing part feels super awkward now. Can you even buffer the stun? | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
His ult does ping on the way, but that's it. His old ult had his team able to see the circle indicator where it would land visible prior to him landing for the entire 2s charge period where he could cancel before. It's a massive difference in clarity, just the on the way and then nothing for 5s feels like you're just running down River, and then they're surprised by your ult. It's weird and awkward to use imo, it's kind of a dash. I tried to dive top lane with an ult from the enemy red one time and got stuck on the wall between golems and the tower. Lol. Not sure Ult damage still hit though, couldn't see it because it auto locks your screen during the ult. You cannot buffer stun with ult. It actually self silences you for a good second or so. In conjunction with the lack of slow... It feels bad. But it's not really a big deal, I don't like it but it's one of my most minute gripes about new pantheon. It's weird, they spent forever updating QoL on a bunch of skills and then pantheon R they just returned to stone age. Lol. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
What I'm the most surprised about is according to lolalytics is his winrate mid against the meta Trist/Azir/Corki/Irelia is actually pretty good?? His mid winrate has appearently been steadily climbing since release and is currently at ~52%. Maybe he's (sadly) just a niche counterpick midlaner? | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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