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Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
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- The Tribunal
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Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
Patch 9.16: Live on Aug. 14, 2019
Team Fight Tactics Patch 9.16: Live on Aug 14, 2019
The rework for Pantheon "The Unbreakable Spear" will be released in this patch. Find out more here.
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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Eternals costs an inordinate amount for what amounts to achievements.
Cost for every single champ according to reddit is around 2k. It's a crazy amount of money. Even if it's for the 5 champs you play the most, it's still the price of a brand new title.
That's more money than I've spent on skins and such, and I crossed the 200 skins mark earlier this year. It's crazy.
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I'm purely f2p in dota because I don't want to get roped in all over again on a secondary game but I think you need to maintain a subscription for stat tracking in that game, so in a way this is maybe better? that being said their implementation of "battle passes" is so incredibly bad where you pay as much as a legendary skin to get the ability to choose between a legendary skin or the other rewards after 120 games , I wouldn't be surprised if my lack of knowlege on how dota+ works is the only reason I don't see how much of a scam this is
as far as the patch notes I just want to say I don't find syndra to be a particularly interesting champion so I'm dissapointed to see that she will most likely be meta both in my games and at worlds
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On August 14 2019 10:35 Slusher wrote:
as far as the patch notes I just want to say I don't find syndra to be a particularly interesting champion so I'm dissapointed to see that she will most likely be meta both in my games and at worlds
Now we get to see Perkz Syndra bot again thO!
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It's already risen to 42.32% jungle, but fallen to 41.7% top.
He's omega OP(!!!!) in mid with an insane 16% winrate.... isn't that the lowest winrate in history?
But I think we need to give him a few days before we can use the stats for anything. It is pretty interesting considering the 16% mid that he has been completely manhandling Trist, Irelia and Azir mid according to the (very small sized) data so far.
Triforce into Shojin has the highest winrate on lolanalytics?? I have absolutely no idea what to think of him.
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Irelia and azir are just bad win rate champions independent of their strength
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Winrates mean nothing, especially early on. Yuumi had a sub 40% winrate (I think it was like 35%?) on release and was the most broken champion in the game.
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That’s not 100% true, she was way better than her win rate for sure but she got giga buffed within 24 hours so we’ll never know the true strength of launch Yuumi
(But win rates are a very poor indicator to be sure)
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I'm only mildly sympathetic to people who discount winrates early on. Its valid only sometimes, typically when some new thing is being added or some new combination. Pantheon's rework is just pantheon with skillshots.
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importance of winrate I think is somewhere in the middle depending on the similarity to other(not necessarily existing) champs and the complexity of the champ.
Anything in the 45-48% range is probably fine for a new champ. If it's 50% and above there's going to be a huge problem.
The winrate of pantheon currently I would say warrants looking at, but not hotfixing buffs yet either.
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He's old pantheon with less damage and counterplay. Of course he's bad.
He gets pooped on by like all the real top laners. Like, by soloqueue pickrate its: Aatrox, Akali, Renekton, Fiora, Darius, Riven, Irelia, Jax, Kled, and then Vladimir. Aside from Vlad, the best winrate he has vs that group is Riven at 46% per my perusal, and like he just gets pooped on all game. Its not even like he wins CS/m early or something.
His best jungle matchup he only wins 47.6% of the time vs warwick. Idk, thats like... super low. Considering he loses to some champs 70% of the time.
Thing is he is just so bad at dueling its kinda gross.
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I think it's way too early to say anything about him.
With data from lolanalytics he has a 46% against Irelia in top but 57% against her in mid. Beat Akali in top but lose in mid. His winning item builds are all over the place and have changed literally since my last post earlier today.
Earlier it was Trifoce into Shojin now it's Cleaver into Titanic with the highest third item being offtank like GA, Sterak and DD. Both seem to suggest he's not a lethality user anymore despite it stacking it early still being the most popular.
I'm probably wrong but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he's sleeper OP like Aatrox was on rework where everyone also called him horrible.
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Riot's in a difficult position in terms of balancing new champs. They can leave them for a patch or two to get balanced by the player base figuring out the best way to play them OR they can just buff them to relevance instantly and get the play rate numbers up for the champ.
If they go down the first route they risk the chance of the champ becoming a troll pick and its pick rate plummeting and probably never recovering. If they go down the second route they might have to deal with balancing the champ for several patches.
They've clearly leaned on the second route for the most part tho.
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Seems like they are hotfixing him for jungle, so I suppose they are going to bruteforce him into it.
EDIT: I've been following his stats closely since release because I found his 60+% winrate on release vs Trist and Azir mid unbelievable surprising.
Bulky Cleaver first into damage items with secondary defensive builds is starting to sit consistent as the superior item builds. His winrate appear to has been slowly improving as data rolls in against everything non-juggernauts and tanks where it appear to keeps falling. I suppose since he cannot touch tanks/juggernauts and he need to build bulky he completely falls off as he's a far inferior frontline compared to them?
His stun shouldn't be dashable, I'm fine with being able to flash it.
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wtf at the new login client?
why change the login client only and leave the actual client the way it is....
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It's all the small indie company can afford.
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That's good to hear.
Point and click stuns are good for the health of the game tbh, with how much mobility there is.
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I'm up to almost 20 emotes from random quests alone, for the love of got please add emote loadout per champion or on the select screen
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Point and click stuns are good for the health of the game tbh, with how much mobility there is.
Mobility creep has just become unbearable by this point. Once upon a time Yasuo would laugh in your face because he can theoretically outplay 99% of champions, these days good Akali players can somehow kite around ranged champions without taking damage, Zoe kills you from a screen away. And the only point click root/stun I can think of is Ryze, which has been greatly nerfed in his latest changes. I enjoy the mechanical aspect of the game, but it's gotten a bit overkill.
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Is the new panth any good? Haven't seen him picked or banned at all in my games or on stream.
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So, I'm not sure if Pantheon is weak per-say, I think he just feels very very different. Seems like his winrates aside from jungle are climbing more than I expected they would, and likely will climb more once he drops off in popularity a bit, as hopefully he wont be staying as a top 10 picked champ in the game.
Anecdotally, on live servers I personally have an unsustainably high 70.8% winrate over 24 games playing him mostly in the jungle. Part of that is I had only played 50 ranked games before his release, and thus was likely not at my "true MMR", part of that is I spammed games with him on the PBE when he was released, and I think a large part of it is that a lot of players aren't really used to playing on a clock or so aggressively as pantheon can get away with. I dont think a lot of people understand or are comfortable hard diving a tower at level 3 (or even level 2, if you cheese start WE), but if you have eyes on the enemy jungler there is no reason you can't just go take 3-4 tower shots and create a huge lead. It is kinda dirty, tbh. I expect to see it in pro play; it kind of feels to me like Yuumi in that its like a 44% winrate in soloqueue but as a concept it is broken to the point of pick ban in coordinated play. Idk, maybe I'm over rating it, but no other champion in the game can do that at level 3 let alone level 2. On top of that, the point and click stun, and the stronger execute on Q you can really just snowball a lane quite hard early; especially if your lane is strong and/or has some play making ability as well. Although, a large part of what makes this broken is that the jungle is kinda fundamentally busted in that jungle creeps have such low value in terms of XP and gold than this kind of hard ganking can't really be punished...
He farms kinda slow. He's kind of weak 1v1 at the moment vs most junglers, in my opinion, but his skirmishing is so strong. If you time your E well its just so incredibly dirty how balls to the wall risky you can be diving and drawing threat, and then buying time with your E for your team to clean. Usually you are able to absorb 2 to 4 abilities with E, and at that point you just kind of win any fight. I think Conquerer is the best rune on him, because it helps the most with 1v1's and thats where he is weakest, imo. Raw stats say in jungle PtA is superior, however.
It is weird though, even when you're obscenely fed, you kind of just feel like you do no damage. I've never felt weaker being 8/0 before, that being said, I think it is relatively easy to create that kind of lead on him. I'm not sure I like it, I feel like if I'm legendary and you're feeding I should be able to one shot you, not tickle you. I'd prefer perhaps having less defensive power in E but better dueling and damage scaling, but perhaps that is just not meant to be.
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Well they reworked a lane bully and even made their spiel about keeping his identity and what makes player love him intact, you didn't expect them not to nuke his damage/dueling did you?
Slap flashy visual effects on his ult to hide that you're removing its actual zoning/dunking usage and call it a day, most of reddit barely knew he existed before so they don't notice a thing and love him.
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I started playing Old Path a ton right before they remade him. He was a lot of fun. His playstyle was refreshing, because once you're in, you're in and while it felt one dimensional on the surface, he definitely wasn't. In a current game where it's all about the flashiness, his slow and bulldozing way of coming at your face, felt fun. Just like Volibear, but Panth was actually playable, while Voli just feels trash all the way through lmao.
I sometimes played this Stormrazor Shiv build where I would just go ham on the first guy I caught and would be able to slow 4 extra people in the process possibly.
His dives, his skirmishes, his auto deflection, it was all good stuff.
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@Darkcore
The thing that actually sucks about the Ryze change is because E is a projectile Yasuo can effectively block your enhanced W, and movespeed reductions don’t effect his e(maybe they should) it actually flipped the matchup vs good Yasuos who don’t let you chunk them to half for standing in the wave.
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Yeah. He's not pantheon, imo. Been thinking of calling him something else, because he's just... Way different.
Worth noting you can cancel Q animation with E/tiamat and W empowered auto animation with Q/E/tiamat, which is pretty juicy. Idk that you ever really want tiamat on him, but... That's besides the point.
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PBE Garen looks pretty spicy. AS scaling and on-hit effects on spin2win? :D
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On August 21 2019 02:24 iCanada wrote:
Yeah. He's not pantheon, imo. Been thinking of calling him something else, because he's just... Way different.
Worth noting you can cancel Q animation with E/tiamat and W empowered auto animation with Q/E/tiamat, which is pretty juicy. Idk that you ever really want tiamat on him, but... That's besides the point.
The Aatrox mains subreddit calls new Aatrox "Boris".
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Boris? Lol.
Am I out to lunch that being able to point and click stun + tank 2 to 4 tower shots at level 2/3 is broken for high level play? I just imagine say Fakers LeBlanc getting a level 2 kill under tower and a repeat gank when his opponent gets back to lane just kind of making the game over.
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Elise can do the same but she clears fast and is a great 1v1 champ early. 
I think it depends on how weak his early 1v1 potential is. If history is anything to go by the earlygame spamgankers that have been popular have all been good duelists or have a super easy way to escape any sticky situations (Camille).
If both his 1v1 and clear is weak it seem to me like a very risky pick in proplay where the rewards might not outweight the risks. If both are 'too' weak I dont think he will be a viable blind pickable jungler but I could see it as option vs the afk until 6 kinda champs like Skarner.
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On August 22 2019 04:07 Jek wrote:Elise can do the same but she clears fast and is a great 1v1 champ early. I think it depends on how weak his early 1v1 potential is. If history is anything to go by the earlygame spamgankers that have been popular have all been good duelists or have a super easy way to escape any sticky situations (Camille). If both his 1v1 and clear is weak it seem to me like a very risky pick in proplay where the rewards might not outweight the risks. If both are 'too' weak I dont think he will be a viable blind pickable jungler but I could see it as option vs the afk until 6 kinda champs like Skarner.
I don't think his clear is that weak. Also I think it's disingenuous to compare Elise that way, because one his is longer and two she's not actually tanking it, she's letting her lane get hit instead. It's also easier to layer CC with Pantheon, doesn't require an initial skillshot to land for the gank to work.
Its weird RE dueling, I think he's Strong at 1 and 2, then he falls off unless you can win the E mindgame just because of how passive gated he is. His clear is a touch weak at the moment. I'd put it at same level as Sejuani. Not great, but like I don't think you should be executing or anything.
That's my only big complaint, aside from feel really, is how much gameplay revolves around passive; to use riot terminology, it doesn't feel like using his passive separates the good pantheon players from the bad, but more like those that should be allowed to pick it without their team dodging and intentional feeders. If you won't conceivably have it up in a fight you'll lose. Which leads to spot picking which feels decidedly unspartan.
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I wasn’t really a pantheon player I would occasionally pick him if I was jungle which is off role to begin with and only when I wanted to hard camp one lane. So pleasing me isn’t really a requirement compared to actual Panth players but this rework is a one and done for me. It’s like nothing you do matters outside of spending your passive correctly and everything that isn’t empowered W feels like freeloss because you contribute nothing after you spend your passive and if it wasn’t w you probably only get one.
I would probably rather just play Volibear in all situations I previously picked pantheon (until Voli rework lul)
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What I cannot understand at all about the Panth rework is why they nerfed his ult so much and in so many ways. Longer CD - 30s more each lvl, cannot be canceled once you click it, landing takes longer, the landing zone is arguably smaller or at least harder to hit, no longer slows, enormous damage cut, the sliding part combined with no slow effect allows the enemies to arrange in a way to actually trap pantheon instead of him trapping them, you no longer can buffer W to stun the immediately after the fall and last but not least the camera automatically forces you into a point of view that is not always favorable to plan and execute your dive the way you want (not sure about the others, but I hate the camera thing). I would have understand if the ult had eaten 1-2 nerfs, but nerfing every possible aspects of it, some with a big margin? why? Its like tahm kench ult now, but without bringing the ally part and tham has lower CD if I am not mistaken
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Agreed. They dumpsters his ult. The one that really gets me is that your team no longer gets an advanced warning you're coming, you suprise them just as much as you surprise the other team. Which is just... Yikes.
That to me is an aggravating factor more than anything. I'd be ok using that power elsewhere.
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On August 22 2019 04:41 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 04:07 Jek wrote:Elise can do the same but she clears fast and is a great 1v1 champ early. I think it depends on how weak his early 1v1 potential is. If history is anything to go by the earlygame spamgankers that have been popular have all been good duelists or have a super easy way to escape any sticky situations (Camille). If both his 1v1 and clear is weak it seem to me like a very risky pick in proplay where the rewards might not outweight the risks. If both are 'too' weak I dont think he will be a viable blind pickable jungler but I could see it as option vs the afk until 6 kinda champs like Skarner. I don't think his clear is that weak. Also I think it's disingenuous to compare Elise that way, because one his is longer and two she's not actually tanking it, she's letting her lane get hit instead. It's also easier to layer CC with Pantheon, doesn't require an initial skillshot to land for the gank to work.
I was being way unclear about what I meant. My bad. What I tried to say was we already have seen what a jungler capable of succesfully dive at level 2/3 can do, Pantheon in that regard isn't new. It wasn't meant as a direct comparison as such, I just suck at english. The ability to dive early has always been highly valued/abused (OG jungle Alistar anyone?) whenever the jungler was viable in the meta.
On August 22 2019 22:46 iCanada wrote:
Agreed. They dumpsters his ult. The one that really gets me is that your team no longer gets an advanced warning you're coming, you suprise them just as much as you surprise the other team. Which is just... Yikes.
That to me is an aggravating factor more than anything. I'd be ok using that power elsewhere.
Doesn't his ult ping at the location when he uses it? I think it's the least problem with it, you can always just spam ping - that's what I do whenever I have a global ult.
I dont know if it's just me, but the landing part feels super awkward now. Can you even buffer the stun?
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Ah, yeah that's fair. Your English is fine, btw. I think a lot of those junglers been hard nerfed and towers hard buffed though. We see.
His ult does ping on the way, but that's it. His old ult had his team able to see the circle indicator where it would land visible prior to him landing for the entire 2s charge period where he could cancel before. It's a massive difference in clarity, just the on the way and then nothing for 5s feels like you're just running down River, and then they're surprised by your ult.
It's weird and awkward to use imo, it's kind of a dash. I tried to dive top lane with an ult from the enemy red one time and got stuck on the wall between golems and the tower. Lol. Not sure Ult damage still hit though, couldn't see it because it auto locks your screen during the ult.
You cannot buffer stun with ult. It actually self silences you for a good second or so. In conjunction with the lack of slow... It feels bad. But it's not really a big deal, I don't like it but it's one of my most minute gripes about new pantheon. It's weird, they spent forever updating QoL on a bunch of skills and then pantheon R they just returned to stone age. Lol.
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Looks like Q tap is getting execute on PBE. I think that should help a lot with his early 1v1 if that is enough to amp his early dueling up I could definitely see him picked.
What I'm the most surprised about is according to lolalytics is his winrate mid against the meta Trist/Azir/Corki/Irelia is actually pretty good?? His mid winrate has appearently been steadily climbing since release and is currently at ~52%. Maybe he's (sadly) just a niche counterpick midlaner?
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Irelia and Azir just have bad win rates even when strong. I haven’t played the match up myself yet (Irelia) but I would imagine it’s even at worst.
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I'd also note that laning and trading is very different than say a duel over a crab.
Pantheon wins almost every combo for combo trade; his passive weighs will in Lane and his E is amazing for trading.
But in an all in, he's less good because you only get your passive and your E on your first combo, but that's not enough to scare anyone away if they know your kit, at which point you're a sitting duck until you can get 3 more autos off while you wait for your CDs. Vs true brawler / duelists (say Xin / Reksai / Olaf / Graves) they just kill you while you're waiting for your CDs and passive, and vs casters (say LeeSin, Nida, Elise) they just stall for CDs and don't let your recharge your passive
In Lane I think he's one of the scariest champs in the game at level 3, tbh. Not sure if there are lethality rates per level stats, but if there were I bet he'd be high on that list. Not the list of full commitment 100 to 0 all ins though, I think he loses that to a lot of champs.
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On August 23 2019 06:40 iCanada wrote:
In Lane I think he's one of the scariest champs in the game at level 3, tbh. Not sure if there are lethality rates per level stats, but if there were I bet he'd be high on that list. Not the list of full commitment 100 to 0 all ins though, I think he loses that to a lot of champs.
I cant for the life of me remember which stats page it is, but I know there's one of them that list how often they get first blood. Talon led by a decent margin (nobody respect his level 2 I guess lol) and iirc it was (old) Pantheon second.
On August 23 2019 06:05 Slusher wrote:
Irelia and Azir just have bad win rates even when strong. I haven’t played the match up myself yet (Irelia) but I would imagine it’s even at worst.
Midlane Irelia's are usually good in my experience, toplane Irelia's are just TFBlade fans.
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Level 2 talon is probably because level 1 talon doesn't do a whole lot. Level 2 talon actually has the means to proc his passive which makes his damage increase by like 3x on a single levelup. Pantheon also doesn't surprise me as a ton of people didn't respect the fact that he would crit low HP targets, which is a death sentence if you're in that range(assuming you ate 2-3 spears at level 1, and maybe some auto damage, you might be with a combo).
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do you skill E lvl2 on old panth? (required for crits)
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On August 23 2019 10:53 Slusher wrote:
do you skill E lvl2 on old panth? (required for crits)
Oh it was E that crit?
I guess people just didn't expect the amount of damage that would come out at level 2 then.
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100% auto attack crit and q crit was a passive of the e skill
(The e does not crit so I can see why it’s confusing)
I’ve literally never played lane pantheon so maybe they did idk
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Nah, generally old Pantheon was usually QWQE, personally. But some players skilled E at level 3.
As a general rule, you'd poke level 1 with Q, all in when you hit level 2 (hopefully you pushing and they level 1) then if you couldn't get a kill you'd chill till 3 and poke at 3 with level 2 Q, then all in when you hit level 4 (again hopefully you managed wave well so you're slow pushing and they're level 3.)
Very mana efficient with Q poke and even when I was low diamond seasons ago I got solo kills almost every game in top or bot if you controlled the wave well and jungle pressure went your way.
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QWQE was better like 5 seasons ago, from then till they reworked him QWE was always the optimal start, but I am too lazy atm to explain why and anyway it doesnt matter anymore
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Eh, I'm old man that has played the same way for like the last 5 years, so that sounds right. Lol.
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EPT
