EPT[Patch 8.24] Neeko Release General Discussion - Page 8
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On January 07 2019 02:38 AlterKot wrote: Are we going for a record of how many gd rules we break before ads remembers hes supposed to be a mod Quick we need to talk about Warwick support and what is a bruiser. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On January 07 2019 02:38 AlterKot wrote: Are we going for a record of how many gd rules we break before ads remembers hes supposed to be a mod is posting in this forum breaking a rule now or what did I miss? | ||
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10bulgares
352 Posts
On January 07 2019 01:46 Slayer91 wrote: also, being hard to make additions to the game doesn't mean it's badly designed. If the game is in a good state it makes sense it could be easy to fuck it up with changes. Good point: why should we need more heroes, items etc. Isn't there enough already? I'm guessing this is indeed for marketing purposes that riot continues to introduce new stuff. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On January 07 2019 03:27 10bulgares wrote: Good point: why should we need more heroes, items etc. Isn't there enough already? I'm guessing this is indeed for marketing purposes that riot continues to introduce new stuff. yea, to keep people interested, i guess | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
On January 07 2019 02:52 Jek wrote: Quick we need to talk about Warwick support and what is a bruiser. I've been playing a lot of Nunu support recently and I think it's pretty good as long as your ADC doesn't alt-f4. It has really good roams and it can steal crabs from enemy junglers. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On January 07 2019 05:00 Fildun wrote: I've been playing a lot of Nunu support recently and I think it's pretty good as long as your ADC doesn't alt-f4. It has really good roams and it can steal crabs from enemy junglers. Another shitty support. Maokai. Don't try it. It actually does suck idk what i was thinking tbh. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
i get enjoyment out of juking skillshots and blowing people up This is also why I could never get into Dota. When I played SC2, all I did was micro around with marines, and I get that craving by playing ADC in League. I will never see WW support if I play support, #thinkingcap... Though I have seen ADC Soraka this week | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
Start frost queens and take mana flow band and aerie gathering storm. Skill order is Q E W then max W then max Q. You have a ton of poke early and massive one shot damage late. Build frost queens, ludens, lich bane. If you play it well you do damage like zyra or brand but don’t get caught and blown up because of your E. You of course don’t have any cc so your ADC is less happy than if you were brand, but you out damage your adc half the time so they can’t really complain in post game chat. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On January 07 2019 05:15 AlterKot wrote: Daily reminder WW support has 100% winratio in NA inhouses. TBF, new Warwick is much less of a troll support than old Warwick support was, namely he can like... gap close + has pre-6 CC, so therefore actually has lane pressure. I also imagine his all in is likely disgusting in bottom lane with W. Not to mention, his E still makes him tanky as balls even if he has no gold. If you had the better early game ADC I could theoretically see him styling on like... Soraka / Brand / Sona. Although, if you had like Vayne and they had like Cait or some shit it'd be awful the other way. I could also theoretically see him stomping tanky playmaker supports without a gap closer, like Nautilus / Kench / Sion. Idk, i could see it actually being a thing. Probably still troll as hell tho. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8842 Posts
On January 07 2019 01:46 Slayer91 wrote: how do you know the dota developers have so much more freedom to make changes? DOTA has been around for way way more than league of legends and league has more playable characters (according to a quick google) "dumbed down and bland" is just your opinion that basically stems from "dota is better because it is harder" and I'm guessing dota has no balance issues or op heroes? also, being hard to make additions to the game doesn't mean it's badly designed. If the game is in a good state it makes sense it could be easy to fuck it up with changes. ok so its pretty obvious youve never played dota so ill explain. the amount of characters available is irrelevant. obviously league is going to have more when theyve made it their philosophy to shit out characters every few months for revenue generation. you have to look at the skill and item designs that both games have. its not a question of adjusting numbers, its about adding uniqueness and utility to the game with each new addition. the last 4 new heroes in dota have skills that are unique to the game and in general most skills in dota have utility that makes those characters serve a purpose in the game other than the fact that they do damage. now look at league. neeko has a buffed syndra q, buffed lux q and buffed amumu ult. the amount of champions that have skills that are not only seen in other champions, but are also so one dimensional that the damage numbers are what matters more. look at what determines meta champs. in jungle 99% of the time the best junglers are determined by sheer clear speed and 1v1 strength before looking at the utility they bring. i consider gragas ult to have fair utility by league standards, but you gut his clear a bit and he will never see the light of say regardless of how useful his kit is. we could go all day if we talk about itemisation also. pretty much only 2 things matter in league itemisation. the actual values of the stats it provides and the efficiency of assembly. you have some item effects here and there like redemption but compared to dota where 90% of items have an active skill aspect, league is childs play. thats what you call freedom in the development department. icefrog can continue to think up new ideas for skills and items that have never been seen before in dota and not worry that its going to be too strong. basically league is too one dimensional. On January 07 2019 06:11 DarkCore wrote: This is also why I could never get into Dota. When I played SC2, all I did was micro around with marines, and I get that craving by playing ADC in League. I will never see WW support if I play support, #thinkingcap... Though I have seen ADC Soraka this week yeah most of the games i lose in league is because im standing in front of the enemy trying to dodge skillshots and i get picked off, rather than me doing the sensible thing and trying to win the game lol | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2396 Posts
On January 07 2019 01:29 evilfatsh1t wrote: im not saying dota is better designed because its harder to play. im saying the game is designed better (from a purely balancing and champion design standpoint) because it allows the developers more freedom to make changes without ruining the balance of the game. if your game is dumbed down and bland from the get go then you are shackled by those limits forever. anything you introduce later on that is a bit too strong is op and anytime you try something fresh it becomes too complicated (stuff like akali neeko). look at how many champions in lol have similar skills. there are only so many skills riot can come up with that are genuinely unique and within the bounds of what they originally created, before they have to start making new skills that will be considered op or risk pretty much changing the colour scheme of a current skill and reusing it. thats what you call bad game design. we could go further into this and talk about item complexity, macro elements, skillsets required by pros in terms of knowledge and decision making etc but its beside the point. and i played dota for 9 years before i wanted a change of scenery. despite all of leagues flaws with its shit design and riot games being a joke of a game developer (from a esports fans perspective), i get enjoyment out of juking skillshots and blowing people up. that doesnt mean i think league is better, nor does it mean im not allowed to play league and have to stick to what ive played for almost 10 years. This is, frankly, stupid. LoL has been doing stuff that is so way out there that it feels completely gimmicky, actually. One example that jumps out in my mind, albeit a little old now, is if you pick Skarner, mysterious diamonds appear on the map that otherwise aren't even there in every other LoL game you play. And you say that LoL is just stuck making no innovative changes? I read that and thought "wow, how stupid, they can't design heroes that feel original to play without upending the whole game like that?". And that, if anything, is the problem with the design in LoL. The champions are too unique, or at least, certainly too complex. I don't necessarily mean complex as in hard to play, but in the sense that to even describe a modern champion's abilities you now need 5 lines per ability. And because all that shit is there jumping out at you, you have no idea what is a good skill build unless you've played 20 games on the champion or look up a guide. How can you simultaneously argue that all the LoL heroes are too alike, and that "in Dota2 it's unheard of that a pro wouldn't know how to play another lane!". You don't even realise that you're completely contradicting yourself. Good design in a MOBA means creating heroes/champions with fun and unique play patterns. You can actually do this just by changing numbers, or the areas hit by AoE skillshots, whatever. Lion and Lina are almost identical, but feel totally different. This is something I would say Dota2 realises better than LoL, but actually, it feels like the design teams of all MOBA games feel like they can't ever re-use a skill with tweaked numbers, and it's because there are idiots like you going around saying "but that's just X's Q, and Y's E, how boring!". And I don't say this as a LoL fanboy. I'm a Dota2 player, because HoN died. I've played two games of LoL in my life. I had to edit everywhere I said "hero" to say "champion". I check out the LoL stuff on here mostly because I like spectating it. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 07 2019 13:16 Turbovolver wrote: This is, frankly, stupid. LoL has been doing stuff that is so way out there that it feels completely gimmicky, actually. One example that jumps out in my mind, albeit a little old now, is if you pick Skarner, mysterious diamonds appear on the map that otherwise aren't even there in every other LoL game you play. And you say that LoL is just stuck making no innovative changes? I read that and thought "wow, how stupid, they can't design heroes that feel original to play without upending the whole game like that?". And that, if anything, is the problem with the design in LoL. The champions are too unique, or at least, certainly too complex. I don't necessarily mean complex as in hard to play, but in the sense that to even describe a modern champion's abilities you now need 5 lines per ability. And because all that shit is there jumping out at you, you have no idea what is a good skill build unless you've played 20 games on the champion or look up a guide. How can you simultaneously argue that all the LoL heroes are too alike, and that "in Dota2 it's unheard of that a pro wouldn't know how to play another lane!". You don't even realise that you're completely contradicting yourself. Good design in a MOBA means creating heroes/champions with fun and unique play patterns. You can actually do this just by changing numbers, or the areas hit by AoE skillshots, whatever. Lion and Lina are almost identical, but feel totally different. This is something I would say Dota2 realises better than LoL, but actually, it feels like the design teams of all MOBA games feel like they can't ever re-use a skill with tweaked numbers, and it's because there are idiots like you going around saying "but that's just X's Q, and Y's E, how boring!". And I don't say this as a LoL fanboy. I'm a Dota2 player, because HoN died. I've played two games of LoL in my life. I had to edit everywhere I said "hero" to say "champion". I check out the LoL stuff on here mostly because I like spectating it. Skarner is kinda an example of his point though. The diamonds for Skarner were a pretty stupid gimmick that ended up making his long term viability hard to sustain. Just as a general rule I'd say there are two (maybe 2.5) main gameplay differences and two philosophy differences in LOL compared to DOTA that makes the game seem less balanced and more homogeneous. Gameplay: 1) Lack of TP scrolls; 2) Jungle is much smaller and less interactive (also be basic 1112 laning that this imposes, I don't know if that deserves its own number). Philosophy: 1) Linear power scaling, they have really curbed lategame and earlygame dominators as a general rule; 2) Conservation of resources, mana costs have never been high in LOL, and they've gone down over the years so that most people can spam most the time. I think all that constrains things in ways DOTA design isn't. However, it isn't all bad. It does mean that so long as your favorite team doesn't pick a hoplessly out of touch set of characters you can still sketch a path to victory midgame, whereas I do think that sometimes the DOTA pick/bans can often result in seeing a team and saying, "welp they better get 3 bounty runes every time, a huge CS lead, and the first Rosh else, gg." | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2396 Posts
On January 07 2019 15:13 cLutZ wrote:Skarner is kinda an example of his point though. The diamonds for Skarner were a pretty stupid gimmick that ended up making his long term viability hard to sustain. I'm not sure I see how a stupid gimmick (I agree, it is that) is evidence that LoL has no ideas and keeps re-using old skills, which is what he claimed. For a more recent example, everyone is bitching about how Akali "breaks the rules of stealth". Again, doing something totally new (whether for better or worse). | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
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Turbovolver
Australia2396 Posts
On January 07 2019 01:29 evilfatsh1t wrote: anytime you try something fresh it becomes too complicated (stuff like akali neeko) On January 07 2019 09:38 evilfatsh1t wrote: neeko has a buffed syndra q, buffed lux q and buffed amumu ult Simultaneously calling Neeko fresh, and derivative, depending on which point he's trying to make at the time. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On January 07 2019 16:17 AdsMoFro wrote: LoL has no ideas? Please explain every champion since Rek'sai then? (Side note: Revert Rek and delete every champion since Rek'sai please. I need my queen back to make challenger) I can get on with this, ADC would be a lot easier without all the broken champs. No Pyke or Zoe! | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8842 Posts
On January 07 2019 13:16 Turbovolver wrote: This is, frankly, stupid. LoL has been doing stuff that is so way out there that it feels completely gimmicky, actually. One example that jumps out in my mind, albeit a little old now, is if you pick Skarner, mysterious diamonds appear on the map that otherwise aren't even there in every other LoL game you play. And you say that LoL is just stuck making no innovative changes? I read that and thought "wow, how stupid, they can't design heroes that feel original to play without upending the whole game like that?". And that, if anything, is the problem with the design in LoL. The champions are too unique, or at least, certainly too complex. I don't necessarily mean complex as in hard to play, but in the sense that to even describe a modern champion's abilities you now need 5 lines per ability. And because all that shit is there jumping out at you, you have no idea what is a good skill build unless you've played 20 games on the champion or look up a guide. How can you simultaneously argue that all the LoL heroes are too alike, and that "in Dota2 it's unheard of that a pro wouldn't know how to play another lane!". You don't even realise that you're completely contradicting yourself. Good design in a MOBA means creating heroes/champions with fun and unique play patterns. You can actually do this just by changing numbers, or the areas hit by AoE skillshots, whatever. Lion and Lina are almost identical, but feel totally different. This is something I would say Dota2 realises better than LoL, but actually, it feels like the design teams of all MOBA games feel like they can't ever re-use a skill with tweaked numbers, and it's because there are idiots like you going around saying "but that's just X's Q, and Y's E, how boring!". And I don't say this as a LoL fanboy. I'm a Dota2 player, because HoN died. I've played two games of LoL in my life. I had to edit everywhere I said "hero" to say "champion". I check out the LoL stuff on here mostly because I like spectating it. im not contradicting myself. im straight up calling league pros worse than dota pros when it comes to understanding their own game. im not even going to attempt to sugarcoat it. league pros rely on their mechanical ability MUCH more than their knowledge of the game. if you want to disagree thats fine, but im not going to go into this further because discussing this will require massive amounts of text on its own. i will say this though, there are very few players i would consider to have a deep enough knowledge of league that could be comparable to the understanding dota pros have of dota. faker and dopa are the first to come to mind; not because of their mid lane prowess but because of their overall understanding of every other lane, champion, champion nuances and macro aspects of the game. i watch a LOT of pro streams in korean and they are literally the only two that demonstrate such depth in their knowledge. bang, pray, peanut, wolf, khan, bjergsen etc. all show on stream that they arent certain about a lot of the things they do when they dont play their role. this isnt even something theyre ashamed of, its just standard for lol pros. On January 07 2019 16:15 Turbovolver wrote: I'm not sure I see how a stupid gimmick (I agree, it is that) is evidence that LoL has no ideas and keeps re-using old skills, which is what he claimed. For a more recent example, everyone is bitching about how Akali "breaks the rules of stealth". Again, doing something totally new (whether for better or worse). akali makes my point. riot gave akali a new mechanic and it was op as fuck. they are trying to balance it now by increasing the fade out time. neeko has some abilities that are pretty much the same as other characters but what i was referring to by neeko being different is her shapeshifting and w skill. also you make it seem like im arguing that league has 100 of the same characters. im obviously not, im saying the amount of different things they can try is severely limited because of the way the game was initially designed. in contrast a game like dota opens itself up to so many possibilities because there are so many other possibilities that already exist. the end result is not a game that has too many op skills that it cannot be balanced at all, but a game that can be balanced quite easily by simply creating more interactions with other skills and heroes. adjusting numbers is obviously something that goes without saying. On January 07 2019 15:13 cLutZ wrote: I think all that constrains things in ways DOTA design isn't. However, it isn't all bad. It does mean that so long as your favorite team doesn't pick a hoplessly out of touch set of characters you can still sketch a path to victory midgame, whereas I do think that sometimes the DOTA pick/bans can often result in seeing a team and saying, "welp they better get 3 bounty runes every time, a huge CS lead, and the first Rosh else, gg." actually i consider hero viability and variance in draft to be generally much higher in dota too, though to be fair i havent followed the dota scene in a while so im not sure what the drafting is like at this moment. | ||
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