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Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
Patch 8.24: Live on Dec. 5, 2018
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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She is going to be pretty cancer to play against, the speed/range of the root and the damage on her Q gives me memories of the ridiculously overpowered release Zyra.
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Maybe I can remember to be subscribed to the thread the entire patch.
Not a fan of Neeko.
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Entire winter skinline but no Voli or Sej skins 
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I think Neeko is a problem with of the recent champion reveals and reworks. A high skill cap meaning damage potential + outplay potential is just straight up higher than older champs. Then rather than hitting the champion's actual damage and incredible ceiling for outplay (which really isn't that hard to accomplish "wow irelia pressed w or omg akali went invis under my tower and just constant harrasses and drop turret agro"), Riot nerfs irrelevant shit which doesn't directly knock them down a peg in pro play. Then when they finally get hit with the damage nerfs they needed all along, they no longer have some of the utility their kit provided then drop to 45% winrate in soloq and become niche picks in pro play.
Also, if this is preseason, where the fuck are the massive changes? Legit they've done nothing except add the ability to have some "runes". Super disappointed. There's not even anything to really check out over preseason and try out. Everything's the same except everybody is trolling so games aren't worth playing because you're not learning anything.
Edit: Nevermind, forgot the biggest change of all. No more hardstuck d5. Gg Riot's done it again. Fixed the game.
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/137358762460577793/519691192900780062/unknown.png)
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Numbers on release are actually absurd, will be an absurd champ for awhile then numbers will be gutted because she's disgusting and will go back to being resident sleeper
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I think Ornn is the only champion people wasn't calling OP and/or cancerous pre-release since I started in end of S1.
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On December 05 2018 09:13 AdsMoFro wrote:
Also, if this is preseason, where the fuck are the massive changes? Legit they've done nothing except add the ability to have some "runes". Super disappointed. There's not even anything to really check out over preseason and try out. Everything's the same except everybody is trolling so games aren't worth playing because you're not learning anything.
I agree that the changes have been minor compared to previous seasons, but people don't pay much attention to what changed anyways.
First dragon got buffed a lot but people in my games give zero fuck. Changes to first towers are more noticeable but I don't feel like people are playing around it. Changes to bounties are different though, people clearly know who is worth a lot of money and are changes focus based on that.
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On December 05 2018 18:06 Jek wrote:
I think Ornn is the only champion people wasn't calling OP and/or cancerous pre-release since I started in end of S1.
He was pretty busted on release though. A tank that won every trade by just pressing W and having an ulti that has no CD. His major flaw was people would buy his upgrades really early so they had to put a timer on them.
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On December 05 2018 20:35 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 18:06 Jek wrote:
I think Ornn is the only champion people wasn't calling OP and/or cancerous pre-release since I started in end of S1. He was pretty busted on release though. A tank that won every trade by just pressing W and having an ulti that has no CD. His major flaw was people would buy his upgrades really early so they had to put a timer on them.
Ornn was pretty ass at release, it took multiple patches worth of buffs before anyone even took the champion serious. Most noticable the change to max% instead of current% from W.
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On December 05 2018 22:14 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 20:35 Numy wrote:On December 05 2018 18:06 Jek wrote:
I think Ornn is the only champion people wasn't calling OP and/or cancerous pre-release since I started in end of S1. He was pretty busted on release though. A tank that won every trade by just pressing W and having an ulti that has no CD. His major flaw was people would buy his upgrades really early so they had to put a timer on them. Ornn was pretty ass at release, it took multiple patches worth of buffs before anyone even took the champion serious. Most noticable the change to max% instead of current% from W.
Yup. He was actually hotfixed twice on release patch AND then hotfixed AGAIN a couple patches later. He was released on 7.17 and received buffs for 4 straight patches, then further buffs two patches later, then some more buffs a couple patches after that. So safe to say he was dogshit.
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Top 3 underpowered champs on release probably Bard, Ornn and Riven? Although that might have been a player problem because once they fixed her w to not stun herself longer than the opponent she instantly became very good.
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Riven was a mix of being shit on release and being very different than other top laners at the time.
Ah, the days when you didn't need mechanical prowess to play her...
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They honestly just need to tone back on the overloaded kits/utility that every new/reworked champ seems to have so that it feels like they have a response for every situation. It just makes older champs more and more obsolete as they have much more defined and exploitable weaknesses.
Not every skill needs to have an active AND a passive (see 3 hit bonus on Neeko W, just unnecessary).
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On December 06 2018 09:23 Amui wrote:
They honestly just need to tone back on the overloaded kits/utility that every new/reworked champ seems to have so that it feels like they have a response for every situation. It just makes older champs more and more obsolete as they have much more defined and exploitable weaknesses.
Not every skill needs to have an active AND a passive (see 3 hit bonus on Neeko W, just unnecessary).
If u wanna look at overloaded kit, check out Azir. Every ability had some hidden bullshit in it haha. Dash/CC/Shield/Engage/Disengage all on his E on a long-range mage :D
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I dont think Neeko is that overloaded. I think her damage numbers perhaps overtuned, but thats a different story.
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On December 06 2018 15:07 iCanada wrote:
I dont think Neeko is that overloaded. I think her damage numbers perhaps overtuned, but thats a different story.
I'd go opposite. She's basically Amumu with other goofiness. The overload isn't in damage, its in the fact that she is goofy and has utility. Amumu could have a 300% AP ratio and wouldn't be OP (in pro play), but champs like this are just going to make the pro-gold split huge.
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On December 06 2018 16:27 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 15:07 iCanada wrote:
I dont think Neeko is that overloaded. I think her damage numbers perhaps overtuned, but thats a different story. I'd go opposite. She's basically Amumu with other goofiness. The overload isn't in damage, its in the fact that she is goofy and has utility. Amumu could have a 300% AP ratio and wouldn't be OP (in pro play), but champs like this are just going to make the pro-gold split huge.
I dont know, played few games with her on my team and against me, her casting range is short and she is easy to kill, spells are not very fast, does not look like a problem to deal with, she might has strong numbers but high damage counters her quite hard imo, she is deal-able
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On December 06 2018 20:11 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 16:27 cLutZ wrote:On December 06 2018 15:07 iCanada wrote:
I dont think Neeko is that overloaded. I think her damage numbers perhaps overtuned, but thats a different story. I'd go opposite. She's basically Amumu with other goofiness. The overload isn't in damage, its in the fact that she is goofy and has utility. Amumu could have a 300% AP ratio and wouldn't be OP (in pro play), but champs like this are just going to make the pro-gold split huge. I dont know, played few games with her on my team and against me, her casting range is short and she is easy to kill, spells are not very fast, does not look like a problem to deal with, she might has strong numbers but high damage counters her quite hard imo, she is deal-able
Can never tell with the first day. People are most likely building wrong/playing wrong. Given it a week and I'd have a better idea.
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The most interesting part of her IMO, aside from all the trolly shit she can pull off in theory, is she can mimic someone with a ton of AS to shred towers due to being an AP champion and her W's passive.
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I was actually thinking about something similar like Caitlyn +Neeko even just for a really easy level 1 farm the first wave as cait
Maybe even rush Nashors, probably bad but definitely something I want to try
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Can Neeko copy an adc's rapid fire cannon range or just their normal range?
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So many Neeko's EQ comboing (2 guaranteed blooms w/ big snare only) when that is utter trash and you should be QE comboing (2 blooms guaranteed, 3 if you get big snare).
Dont be bad, liquid legends, QE combo on Neeko. Q travel speed is slower than E travel speed.
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On December 07 2018 04:48 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Can Neeko copy an adc's rapid fire cannon range or just their normal range?
I think neeko is limited by her own range, she can copy within but she cannot extend it when she mimic a champ like annie or cait for example
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Neeko support is annoying for low ranged ADC, she's like a Soraka without the heal but same endless poke.
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Can EUW stop being complete garbage?
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It's a reflection of our own skill.
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Can EUW stop being complete garbage?
Been playing ranked again, couldn't do it at all last season: Games are full of so much flame and bad plays I want to quit the game.
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On December 10 2018 00:04 DarkCore wrote:Been playing ranked again, couldn't do it at all last season: Games are full of so much flame and bad plays I want to quit the game.
Playing ranked in offseason is a test in mental fortitude.
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How does flex queue mmr matching and match making, work? I'm not a great player, but I've been low gold to low plat since before flex came out, but I've never played it. For whatever reason i went to play flex with 2 buddies, and they are like gold thru plat in solo queue and flex, but it doesn't let me play with them?
Apparently my flex mmr is iron II? It's true ELO hell because to rank up I'm a solo with a four stack and the actual lol ability of all the players in the game is all over the place. Last game i had a D1 ASOL one trick kill my silver IV mid 4 times before he hit level 3 on his main. True terror.
Am i just fucked in this game mode? Matchmaking seems all over the place. Each player I'm matchmade with is based rng from bronze through diamond. Lol. Do i just need to play legit 500 games to get to my true skill? Would riot do an mmr reset for me? Idk man.
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On December 10 2018 17:27 iCanada wrote:
How does flex queue mmr matching and match making, work? I'm not a great player, but I've been low gold to low plat since before flex came out, but I've never played it. For whatever reason i went to play flex with 2 buddies, and they are like gold thru plat in solo queue and flex, but it doesn't let me play with them?
Apparently my flex mmr is iron II? It's true ELO hell because to rank up I'm a solo with a four stack and the actual lol ability of all the players in the game is all over the place. Last game i had a D1 ASOL one trick kill my silver IV mid 4 times before he hit level 3 on his main. True terror.
Am i just fucked in this game mode? Matchmaking seems all over the place. Each player I'm matchmade with is based rng from bronze through diamond. Lol. Do i just need to play legit 500 games to get to my true skill? Would riot do an mmr reset for me? Idk man.
Did you just start ranking up? Because it seems as though ranked is kinda fucky rn and probs the reason why you're getting this random set up. Note, you can't get solo with 4 stack because there's no 4 stacks in flex. But yeah, I'd say wait for next season?
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Yeah. Flex as solo is hard. I think it takes longer to level up out of the deeply low elos because more games just randomly spiral out of control for weird reasons. Like if you normally won 53% of your games, but half the time the game is decided by a smurf hard stomping and solo carrying one team or the other then your effective win rate would only be 51.5% and your climb rate would be lower. You’d eventually get out, but it would take longer.
Edit: just want to note that this is symmetrical. If someone who was iron 4 bought a boosted account it would take them longer to sink to their true rank in flex than it would in solo for exactly the same reasons.
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I actually strongly dislike the Akali change, not what was nerfed or how hard, but scaling detached from performance is gross and should not be praised
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On December 19 2018 08:50 Slusher wrote:
I actually strongly dislike the Akali change, not what was nerfed or how hard, but scaling detached from performance is gross and should not be praised
Totally disagree. Akali is a tough champion for them, this doesn't screw with her all that much, but makes her easier to design around.
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If I want to play hots I’d play hots
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If properly done it makes it more like DOTA because EXP funnelling is already wierd in LOL.
I'm not going to argue if you want Akali to scale differently, but I will say Riot can't do that in the current system.
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man Neeko is an annoying champion, good thing I play top so I don't see it much but still
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yeah the only thing that makes neeko so busted is how annoying she is to play against. give her clones 200% damage intake or something like mirror images do in dota/wc3 and she wouldnt be so cancer.
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Really agree with the annoying bit. I don't consider her damage too bad, Zoe was/is much more worse. But she is about as anti fun as it gets to play against for a low ranged or melee champion, because her abilities are practically impossible to dodge, and that ult lol. And if you play a champion that can dodge, most likely your CD are longer and more expensive than hers, so it kind of works in her favour anyway. Only good thing is that assassins destroy her, but only Pyke fits that role in the bot lane.
Clones are annoying, but honestly I have never seen an in game example of someone exploiting them, it's too niche.
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Idk if i just need to play against her more but holy shit her root is impossible to dodge
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On December 19 2018 08:50 Slusher wrote:
I actually strongly dislike the Akali change, not what was nerfed or how hard, but scaling detached from performance is gross and should not be praised
She snowball(ed?) way too hard in her current state, making her re-stealth scale off time was honestly the most elegant way to tone it down without completely changing her shroud.
Love the Caitlyn ult buff. Played with a Caitlyn mid a week or two ago that rushed Ghostblade+CDR boots and just ulted their ADC on cooldown and ran back to her lane, it was hilarious and must have been so tilt inducing.
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Her ability animations are quite fast, she's akin to Zoe in that regards. The root also goes through minions, which I think is really poor game design. It can be dodged, but for melee champions that usually requires the Neeko player messing up. A few years ago Riot preached counter play, but her abilities are a perfect example of counter play limited to just the P/B phase: The only thing that keeps Neeko under control is that there are quite a few champs that do very well against her.
She's seeing a lot of play in KeSPA right now, so pros obviously see something in her.
ulted their ADC on cooldown and ran back to her lane
I want to try this out.
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On December 19 2018 21:08 DarkCore wrote:
Really agree with the annoying bit. I don't consider her damage too bad, Zoe was/is much more worse. But she is about as anti fun as it gets to play against for a low ranged or melee champion, because her abilities are practically impossible to dodge, and that ult lol. And if you play a champion that can dodge, most likely your CD are longer and more expensive than hers, so it kind of works in her favour anyway. Only good thing is that assassins destroy her, but only Pyke fits that role in the bot lane.
Clones are annoying, but honestly I have never seen an in game example of someone exploiting them, it's too niche.
As a jungler, I dont think its niche at all. Its colours basically every interaction you have with every champion in the whole game.
MFW when the hard int ADC with 100 HP and no sums that for some reason is still under their bot tower after having a chance to back and leaving vision is actually a Neeko with full HP that Ult+Roots you for ages... X_X
And once you been killed by it once, you get mindfucked forever more. Every time you see someone inting you subconsciously think its a Neeko baiting the shit out of you and that you can't kill it. Even if you get over it and figure it out, it adds hesitation. Super super strong, makes it hard to punish mistakes because your window to make a play is cut drastically by the time it takes to process if that is or isn't Neeko, like even if you see her on the other side of the map or something.
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On December 20 2018 05:04 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2018 21:08 DarkCore wrote:
Really agree with the annoying bit. I don't consider her damage too bad, Zoe was/is much more worse. But she is about as anti fun as it gets to play against for a low ranged or melee champion, because her abilities are practically impossible to dodge, and that ult lol. And if you play a champion that can dodge, most likely your CD are longer and more expensive than hers, so it kind of works in her favour anyway. Only good thing is that assassins destroy her, but only Pyke fits that role in the bot lane.
Clones are annoying, but honestly I have never seen an in game example of someone exploiting them, it's too niche. As a jungler, I dont think its niche at all. Its colours basically every interaction you have with every champion in the whole game. MFW when the hard int ADC with 100 HP and no sums that for some reason is still under their bot tower after having a chance to back and leaving vision is actually a Neeko with full HP that Ult+Roots you for ages... X_X And once you been killed by it once, you get mindfucked forever more. Every time you see someone inting you subconsciously think its a Neeko baiting the shit out of you and that you can't kill it. Even if you get over it and figure it out, it adds hesitation. Super super strong, makes it hard to punish mistakes because your window to make a play is cut drastically by the time it takes to process if that is or isn't Neeko, like even if you see her on the other side of the map or something.
Really? I felt like she just has a good abilities set and the chameleon thing is mostly cosmetics with some usefulness in it from time to time
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MFW when the hard int ADC with 100 HP and no sums that for some reason is still under their bot tower after having a chance to back and leaving vision is actually a Neeko with full HP that Ult+Roots you for ages... X_X
Oh come on, that's like the most obvious bait ever  . In reality, those situations are pretty avoidable and the cases where it causes justified confusion are super rare, that is what I mean by niche. Ex: Riot's showcase had Renekton walk into a brush, and Neeko coming out, I've never seen this interaction exploited in soloQ.
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On December 19 2018 23:17 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2018 08:50 Slusher wrote:
I actually strongly dislike the Akali change, not what was nerfed or how hard, but scaling detached from performance is gross and should not be praised She snowball(ed?) way too hard in her current state, making her re-stealth scale off time was honestly the most elegant way to tone it down without completely changing her shroud. Love the Caitlyn ult buff. Played with a Caitlyn mid a week or two ago that rushed Ghostblade+CDR boots and just ulted their ADC on cooldown and ran back to her lane, it was hilarious and must have been so tilt inducing.
Always considered Cait's rank 1 ult almost useless, but now I'm worried it might be too strong. It has to be extremely frustrating to be constantly poked with her long range autos and point and click ultimates.
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On December 20 2018 07:06 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +MFW when the hard int ADC with 100 HP and no sums that for some reason is still under their bot tower after having a chance to back and leaving vision is actually a Neeko with full HP that Ult+Roots you for ages... X_X Oh come on, that's like the most obvious bait ever . In reality, those situations are pretty avoidable and the cases where it causes justified confusion are super rare, that is what I mean by niche. Ex: Riot's showcase had Renekton walk into a brush, and Neeko coming out, I've never seen this interaction exploited in soloQ.
You apparently don't know what kinda int we see down here in gold. LOL. When I'm trying to climb usually i just auto assume everyone is inting and not baiting and usually i legit hard stomp.
People do a lot of dumb shit just waiting for you to poop on them. Hoping almost.
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On December 20 2018 07:07 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2018 23:17 Jek wrote:On December 19 2018 08:50 Slusher wrote:
I actually strongly dislike the Akali change, not what was nerfed or how hard, but scaling detached from performance is gross and should not be praised She snowball(ed?) way too hard in her current state, making her re-stealth scale off time was honestly the most elegant way to tone it down without completely changing her shroud. Love the Caitlyn ult buff. Played with a Caitlyn mid a week or two ago that rushed Ghostblade+CDR boots and just ulted their ADC on cooldown and ran back to her lane, it was hilarious and must have been so tilt inducing. Always considered Cait's rank 1 ult almost useless, but now I'm worried it might be too strong. It has to be extremely frustrating to be constantly poked with her long range autos and point and click ultimates.
Haha yeah. The first seemingly random ult got the "?" reply from their Jhin. Then it happend again and again and again and again and we never saw the "?" again. I swear, it seems like it have no cooldown when she has 20% CDR (might have been even more, didn't see if she had any of the CDR or ultimate runes).
Would imagine it being even worse for the mid if it came from bot to mid constantly since midlaners usually have very high kill threat at 6+.
On December 20 2018 07:06 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +MFW when the hard int ADC with 100 HP and no sums that for some reason is still under their bot tower after having a chance to back and leaving vision is actually a Neeko with full HP that Ult+Roots you for ages... X_X Oh come on, that's like the most obvious bait ever . In reality, those situations are pretty avoidable and the cases where it causes justified confusion are super rare, that is what I mean by niche. Ex: Riot's showcase had Renekton walk into a brush, and Neeko coming out, I've never seen this interaction exploited in soloQ.
I had a game where our Neeko backed at same time we did and told me to delay coming to lane so she could pretend to be me (support) for the sneak gank. Sadly they didn't fall for it, but it was a cute idea. 
EDIT: Now that I think about it, Neeko with a premade support sounds mega fun. Pick a mage "support", Morg/Brand/Xerath, and switch them between mid and support when the "mid" goes "support" first time pick up Spellthief. Against Neeko you dont want to stand behind minions, again the three you want to stand behind minions.
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On December 20 2018 07:11 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2018 07:06 DarkCore wrote:MFW when the hard int ADC with 100 HP and no sums that for some reason is still under their bot tower after having a chance to back and leaving vision is actually a Neeko with full HP that Ult+Roots you for ages... X_X Oh come on, that's like the most obvious bait ever . In reality, those situations are pretty avoidable and the cases where it causes justified confusion are super rare, that is what I mean by niche. Ex: Riot's showcase had Renekton walk into a brush, and Neeko coming out, I've never seen this interaction exploited in soloQ. You apparently don't know what kinda int we see down here in gold. LOL. When I'm trying to climb usually i just auto assume everyone is inting and not baiting and usually i legit hard stomp. People do a lot of dumb shit just waiting for you to poop on them. Hoping almost.
I do actually because I didn't play ranked almost all last season, went on a massive losing streak and am sitting in G1/P5. Games are fiestas, but ironically people seem to never fall for the things that actually seem to require brain power.
Against Neeko you dont want to stand behind minions, again the three you want to stand behind minions.
Yes, I think there's lots of stuff to exploit, especially in premades and pro play, but not in soloQ.
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LCK is gonna be super boring this year SKT looking like Golden State Warriors Super Team so far Teddy Mata and Khan
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^That hasn't worked before.
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Yeah SKT looked solid in a way they haven't looked for ages, they just mow people over with raw talent. Faker, Mata, Clid stole the show while Teddy played pretty much perfectly, Khan was OK. But I still expect LCK to throw a hard season at them, SKT didn't look perfect today for example.
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Those two games were so much fun to watch. In the first game in went completely mental during and right after the fight were Faker got a 5 man root as Lissandra. He's playing with so much more determined. It's lovely to see how they don't dally around.
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What event was SKT playing in? The season hasn’t started yet has it?
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KeSPA cup is being played right now. There's no information about it here but KeSPA's youtube channel has put the English broadcasts on there.
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On December 21 2018 05:11 Uldridge wrote:
KeSPA cup is being played right now. There's no information about it here but KeSPA's youtube channel has put the English broadcasts on there.
It's in the calendar
It's on the KESPA Youtube channel. Link here. Liquipedia link to the tournament info here.
Also, there's the Demacia Cup going on rn too (also in the calendar!). Doyu Chinese stream link here. Liquipedia link here.
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I learned about the Cup from the calendar, so it was useful for at least one person.
Since tomorrow isn't an exciting game, I'll be clicking through Demacia Cup, nothing like seeing some good CN bloodbath.
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I mean I also saw it on the calendar, but it's very difficult finding info on it other than that. So that's two people
Normally vods are present on every channel you can think of.
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On December 21 2018 08:22 Uldridge wrote:I mean I also saw it on the calendar, but it's very difficult finding info on it other than that. So that's two people Normally vods are present on every channel you can think of.
Yeah it got delayed super late this year. idk why? Maybe it's the last year of kespa cup which is sad. It's a fun little tournament.
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Really hope they don't end it, because it's fun seeing CK teams get some surprise wins, and is also a good place to watch upcoming talent, because I'm betting nobody here watches CK, or at most a few games.
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what i noticed from the 2 skt games is that faker quite obviously plays with belief that his team is competent. a couple plays he made within those 2 games he wouldnt have tried with last seasons skt i dont think. im sure faker doubted his teams ability to follow up on various things he did last season but these 2 games faker didnt give a fuck
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Exactly. Last few years SKT was playing so reserved where I even started to compare them to TSM in how they approach the game.
This was just madness. Like the deep dive he did with his Lissandra, all the way from 1st tier turret to between inhib and inner turret, was awesome to see.
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Anyone here still play a lot of nidalee? I want to play her a lot because she's fun but I'm so bad at her unless I'm legit 1v9 fed. When is she strong like without items? Or does she just need kills like as a champion?
I think part of it is maybe I'm too focused on mechanically clearing well that sometimes i miss things. Or maybe she's just bad. But i suppose i have thirty games on what is the deepest champion mastery curve in the game. Idk.
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i see nid get played a lot nowadays and i dont think shes bad. shes just not lee/camille level.
actually i think the tiamat cost change is a pretty decent buff for her because her strength aside from massive poke is her clear speed.
junglers like lee have to rush tiamat against her and its harder for them now so you have a better window to get some leads.
getting used to clearing with her is her biggest learning curve imo
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Its not clearing i find difficult, its clearing properly while looking at the map.
The animation cancels just so frame perfect and pounce resets are so target reliant. Idk, probably gets better with practice.
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I'm still seeing people like Rush do well with her on stream, and I see her picked fairly often on EU streams, so I would say she is still playable. Her power is her mobility and her burst potential, but she's also feast or starve because her team fight impact is 0 unless you can kill someone. Seems to also require good pathing, because she needs to be in the right place at the right time, simple ganks don't cut it.
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So, today I learned that Poppy lowkey has some of the best AD ratios in the game?
(E @) 0.5 + (2x Q @ 0.9 =) 1.8 + (R @) 0.9 = 3.2 AD ratio. That is nasty with her base damage and her base tankiness. Similair effective ratios to like Pantheon and Zed.
Definitely got 1-shot by a 0/5/0 poppy that had warrior and a 2x long sword that i had 3 levels on. Granted I was a reltively squishy Nidalee, but I didn't respect that that was a thing. LOL.
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On December 24 2018 08:46 iCanada wrote:
So, today I learned that Poppy lowkey has some of the best AD ratios in the game?
(E @) 0.5 + (2x Q @ 0.9 =) 1.8 + (R @) 0.9 = 3.2 AD ratio. That is nasty with her base damage and her base tankiness. Similair effective ratios to like Pantheon and Zed.
Definitely got 1-shot by a 0/5/0 poppy that had warrior and a 2x long sword that i had 3 levels on. Granted I was a reltively squishy Nidalee, but I didn't respect that that was a thing. LOL.
Yep. Bruiser build (IBG instead of Triforce) Poppy is lowkey OP.
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They're all bonus AD though.
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On December 24 2018 11:38 Gahlo wrote:
They're all bonus AD though.
It doesn't really matter when you're building AD on her since her base damage is high enough to make up for it not being total AD. Steraks and Titanic given how much HP they give come with IMO way too much AD.
EDIT: Botlane Ghostblade first Caitlyn make the enemy midlaner ragequit after the 3rd ult. :D
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Playing with and against Neeko more I can officially say her numbers are BUStED.
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Playing with killerdog's Neeko I can say the champ is completely balanced and fine.
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On December 26 2018 21:47 Fildun wrote:
Playing with killerdog's Neeko I can say the champ is completely balanced and fine.
From your experience playing with her on your team would even you say she needs a buff?
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On December 26 2018 08:03 AdsMoFro wrote:
Playing with and against Neeko more I can officially say her numbers are BUStED.
ive also changed my mind on this. after actually playing her i think her numbers are too high. for the amount of utility/aoe she has she shouldnt have this much dmg
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I find her feast or famine, it's either like she doesn't exist or she is all that matters.
She's not famine if you play her well, because she has all that utility. Kind of like Zoe, if you hit that one good ult you can win the game being 0/5. Only thing keeping her back is that Galio/Cass are beyond busted right now, and she has viable counters.
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I dont understand, aren't assassins feasting on Neeko for free, unless she has zhonya, this is how I feel it at least.
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SKT really threw game 3, but Damwon are surprisingly good, I was pessimistic about the hype but their macro is exceptional for what one could consider a CK team, individual players are high caliber. Really curious how they'll match up against Griffin, who also got through because of some throws by Afreeca, despite the series being pretty good quality.
SKT's early is very good, we saw that in game 3. But their mid game decision making is not, also KT Mata is a meme for a reason. But the proactiveness is nice to see, they just need to clean their play up.
My guess is that Gen.G will crush KT tomorrow, because Ruler is going to blow that game up.
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Speaking of Ruler I got so annoyed listening to the season end awards episode of the Dive, where Phreak, Kobe and Jatt unanimously picked Ruler for the Dade award. Not only is this a full month after the tournament where we had enough time to analyze and conclude adc was the weakest role on that patch. But even in a meta where ADC is strong how are you supposed to play the game as ADC when your mid dies to LB 3 times pre 6?
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On December 28 2018 00:58 DarkCore wrote:
SKT really threw game 3, but Damwon are surprisingly good, I was pessimistic about the hype but their macro is exceptional for what one could consider a CK team, individual players are high caliber. Really curious how they'll match up against Griffin, who also got through because of some throws by Afreeca, despite the series being pretty good quality.
SKT's early is very good, we saw that in game 3. But their mid game decision making is not, also KT Mata is a meme for a reason. But the proactiveness is nice to see, they just need to clean their play up.
My guess is that Gen.G will crush KT tomorrow, because Ruler is going to blow that game up.
My favorite new variety is Still KT Mata.
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On December 28 2018 06:49 Slusher wrote:
Speaking of Ruler I got so annoyed listening to the season end awards episode of the Dive, where Phreak, Kobe and Jatt unanimously picked Ruler for the Dade award. Not only is this a full month after the tournament where we had enough time to analyze and conclude adc was the weakest role on that patch. But even in a meta where ADC is strong how are you supposed to play the game as ADC when your mid dies to LB 3 times pre 6?
Yeah wtf Ruler was the only fkn person with half a functioning brain that tournament. Also, DAMWON (BEST TEAM IN WORLD ACCORDING TO SCRIMS) GAMING too good. And by too good I mean skt threw super hard lol. Griffin vs Damwon for old hype vs new hype gonna be exciting.
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yeah damwon gets so much credit from pros based on their scrims atm. korean challengers that stream also unanimously say that meeting showmaker etc is scary in solo queue
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can anyone explains how is aftershock swain working? I played a lot the old swain, also playing this one from time to time and I really cannot comprehend how the aftershock makes sense. You usually activate it when they are far away and even if they engage you after that, it is at the end of the duration. However, if they engage you first, something like camile or jax jump on you, many times you wont even be able to activate it, coz hitting E from melee range is not that easy. At best you ll activate it after their burst
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I'm assuming it's because it makes killing him during a gank so damn hard, and it's exceptionally powerful in a 2vs2. Imagine how much extra damage is needed to kill a Swain who gets Aftershock proc and heals with passive. The rune is pretty busted right now, hence we see Lissandra and Galio all the time, they can actually use it offensively.
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On December 28 2018 19:32 M2 wrote:
can anyone explains how is aftershock swain working? I played a lot the old swain, also playing this one from time to time and I really cannot comprehend how the aftershock makes sense. You usually activate it when they are far away and even if they engage you after that, it is at the end of the duration. However, if they engage you first, something like camile or jax jump on you, many times you wont even be able to activate it, coz hitting E from melee range is not that easy. At best you ll activate it after their burst
Aftershock in general is op as all hell. Especially early game.
So much flat resists.
I learned this after dying 1v1 to a level 2 nautilus halfway through clearing his red with blue buff as a level 3 leesin with doublebuffs shortly after runes were reworked. Just assumed i hard won. I was wrong.
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It's so nice on Sej when all you want to do early game is just load up on health and gives windows for either downright stupid tankieness shortly or extended dumb depending on how you layer Aftershock and her passive.
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Lovely to see Griffin is still fun as hell to watch
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Yeah, I'm so hyped for the finals.
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On December 29 2018 18:42 Uldridge wrote:
Lovely to see Griffin is still fun as hell to watch
Yeah. Griffin quickly became my new favorite team.
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What a stomp lol, wasn't even close.
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Ruler tried so hard, but Lehend Thresh is just too good, landing all the hooks, Madlife would be so proud.
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Lehends, imo, is lowkey the carry of Griffin. This guy is such an extension of his teammates, knows exactly what they need.
I mean, Chovy and Viper are insane and all of them just fully commit all the time, but Lehends man.. his stuff is admirable.
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Got to jam a bunch more games over the holidays and play vs Neeko some. Got to say I really didn’t enjoy playing vs her. It’s a miserable lane as a melee champ because you can’t weave in and out of minions to block her abilities like you can with other skill shots. It takes away a lot of the built in counter play that is usually there against poke kits.
Then her ult really punishes you for closing in and getting in close range, which is how melee champs need to play vs ranged. So yeah. Don’t enjoy the new champ.
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It seems like it's another case of Riot going "Hey, this is a neat idea." then release it and go "Oh wait, this goes against how we've been making this game for years."
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Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe.
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On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe.
i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game
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DZK doesn't work at Riot anymore.
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On January 03 2019 10:01 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe. i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game
TBH I feel like its the whole champ design team + the PR team. The PR one being pretty inexcusable considering the company's revenue.
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On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe.
If Zoe had to hit a Q to kill you she wouldn't be that bad
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On January 03 2019 10:01 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe. i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game
I used to think this way too, but you have to consider that it's the champion design department, it's not just those two that are responsible for releases. Is there a design document/criteria? It's hard coming up with new champions because there are already so many, but I thought there would at least be a list of no-goes.
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On January 04 2019 00:45 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2019 10:01 Frolossus wrote:On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe. i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game I used to think this way too, but you have to consider that it's the champion design department, it's not just those two that are responsible for releases. Is there a design document/criteria? It's hard coming up with new champions because there are already so many, but I thought there would at least be a list of no-goes.
That's the thing, Riot is obviously enjoying pushing design boundaries. Akali with "TRUE STEALTH" breaks all other rules and pushes the game in a new direction. Previously we had abilities like Cass's reworked E and Poppy's E? that grounded. Likewise, Zoe with item pick ups, Neeko's whole invisibility and transformation trick that makes Shaco and LB look boring af, Kalista's infinite dashes that required her to be nerfed in a manner unlike any others by capping her damage at 90% etc. Seems like moving forward to keep the game fresh, they're required to no longer have a list of no-goes. The unfortunate thing being is that when you have champions that break boundaries in niche manners you really have to make them stupid in numbers to make them useful beyond their niche, otherwise, they're trash.
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On January 04 2019 03:34 AdsMoFro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2019 00:45 DarkCore wrote:On January 03 2019 10:01 Frolossus wrote:On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe. i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game I used to think this way too, but you have to consider that it's the champion design department, it's not just those two that are responsible for releases. Is there a design document/criteria? It's hard coming up with new champions because there are already so many, but I thought there would at least be a list of no-goes. That's the thing, Riot is obviously enjoying pushing design boundaries. Akali with "TRUE STEALTH" breaks all other rules and pushes the game in a new direction. Previously we had abilities like Cass's reworked E and Poppy's E? that grounded. Likewise, Zoe with item pick ups, Neeko's whole invisibility and transformation trick that makes Shaco and LB look boring af, Kalista's infinite dashes that required her to be nerfed in a manner unlike any others by capping her damage at 90% etc. Seems like moving forward to keep the game fresh, they're required to no longer have a list of no-goes. The unfortunate thing being is that when you have champions that break boundaries in niche manners you really have to make them stupid in numbers to make them useful beyond their niche, otherwise, they're trash.
Cass W and singed W both ground. Skarner and Malz also ground for an instant to prevent the targeted person from wasting flash and ult going off anyways IIRC.
And I would definitely agree with that. Having played when there were a lot less than 100 champs around, it was nice that it didn't seem like every champ got new shiny tools to play with that completely negate weaknesses. "Skill expression" doesn't mean that a champ is well designed IMO.
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I do think its semi-rational for the design/redesign team to only create stacked/op champions, because otherwise they just end up feeling like they wasted their effort. Look at Illoai, for instance. She's never really gotten a chance to shine on soloQ or in pro play. And there isn't really a contingent agitating for her because she never developed one. If you don't start off strong (and even if you do) a lot of time your creation will be disappeared. Vi has been dead for, what? 3 years? Diana? Wukong? Old champs that went from forgotten to played all had remakes, or at least mini reworks: Fiora, Galio, Viktor, Talon, etc. Its really not clear to me that any of them are really better designed than before, but they got reworked into temporary OPNess, and gained new constituencies that have helped keep them viable for a while.
A perfect example is Twisted Fate. Other than his mana costs being outdated and him being undertuned (ult timer is too long, pushing power has been powercreeped a bit) he's a perfectly modern champion. He's probably going to be reworked instead of buffed. There is no good reason for this, but instead of taking 10 mana off his Q (and not having it ramp up so much, no modern casters do) and making his ult 150 S at rank 1, they will rework him.
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riots design and balance team (or whatever they call it) are terrible at their jobs, theres no doubt about that. but i dont think its fair that they shoulder 100% of the blame for their incompetence. the game is just poorly designed from the beginning and although it may seem like riot are pushing a lot of new boundaries with new champions, in reality theyre still trying to work within the original shit ass riot game design.
compare league to dota, where new heroes are fresh and quirky but dont have retarded numbers and arent either op or trash. if were talking about design boundaries, dota completely shits on league, yet they dont suffer from nearly as many balance issues.
just blame riot for making a shit game at the very beginning that has shackled the design team for 9 seasons. the design team could be doing better for sure, but you cant overlook the fact that what they had to work with at the beginning wasnt great anyway
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Honestly I doubt that RIot's goal is to balance the game and/or to design the champions towards balanced and competitive gameplay direction. Most of Riot's efforts are towards what will attract as many people as possible to play without giving up the game. So I suppose they have their research what makes people come and go and balanced game is probably not one of the reasons, at least not for the masses, hence, we get what we have now, with zillions of bugs, imbalances, retarded matchmaking, beautiful skins and cinematic, drastic changes all the time and new champs every other day
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C'mon the champ release schedule is pretty slow. They're still prioritising reworks as well so it's not like they've given up on updating some of the worst champions (although we know they prioritise more popular champs first rather than the actual worst champs: e.g Voli, udyr)
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the fact that the older champions need reworks to keep up with the newer ones is an indication that the game is poorly designed.
m2 is right about riots balancing policy in general though. its ironic that the biggest esport titles developers dont actually care about their game as an esport. its just a cash cow for them that cannot fail because they monopolise the korean market
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Is it really that surprising though? It's not a secret that those champs are entirely outdated and very few of them exist without being entire stat checks. The newer champs are pretty exciting to play after they're finally brought in line. In terms of Riot's balance policy it's clear that they're more concerned with cycling the meta rather than achieving a
"balance". Idk I've been playing the game for 5 years now and sure my interest has wavered here and there but I find myself pretty excited for S9. Seems like a successful plan.
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On January 04 2019 21:11 evilfatsh1t wrote:
the fact that the older champions need reworks to keep up with the newer ones is an indication that the game is poorly designed.
m2 is right about riots balancing policy in general though. its ironic that the biggest esport titles developers dont actually care about their game as an esport. its just a cash cow for them that cannot fail because they monopolise the korean market
League undergo huge changes basically every pre-season, expecting every champion to never need updates when the game change this much is silly I cant think of a single champion that haven't at one point been relevant at pro/highest MMR given how large the champion pool is this is good design. How the game functioned in S1 to now is so far apart it might as well be considered two different MOBAs.
Aiming for Perfect Imbalance is a way more intersting than aiming for Perfect Balance.
Riot dont care about the game as an eSport? Why the hell do you think they keep working on keeping the game fast, evolving and entertaining to watch for the viewers. lol
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On January 04 2019 22:26 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2019 21:11 evilfatsh1t wrote:
the fact that the older champions need reworks to keep up with the newer ones is an indication that the game is poorly designed.
m2 is right about riots balancing policy in general though. its ironic that the biggest esport titles developers dont actually care about their game as an esport. its just a cash cow for them that cannot fail because they monopolise the korean market League undergo huge changes basically every pre-season, expecting every champion to never need updates when the game change this much is silly I cant think of a single champion that haven't at one point been relevant at pro/highest MMR given how large the champion pool is this is good design. How the game functioned in S1 to now is so far apart it might as well be considered two different MOBAs. Aiming for Perfect Imbalance is a way more intersting than aiming for Perfect Balance. Riot dont care about the game as an eSport? Why the hell do you think they keep working on keeping the game fast, evolving and entertaining to watch for the viewers. lol
have you played dota ever?
there are almost as many heroes in dota and throughout the ENTIRE history of dota there are probably less than 5 heroes that have actually been reworked. some of the oldest heroes in dota are more or less the same as what they were since the beginning, and they all retain their niche/identity (whatever you want to call it) and viability in the pro scene as the meta changes.
i could literally write an essay on how riot does not have esports at the centre of their decision making but tbh ive already talked about this before also. without going into lengthy detail, if i were to attempt to sum it up in a couple sentences it would be this.
there are a number of stakeholders involved in league when it comes to the esports scene and not one of them would favour constant change and instability in the game (and the competitive scene by extension), over stability. riots "balancing" philosophy is the exact opposite of this, they create changes for the sake of change and force the game into instability. the fact that they have a set number of patches that they want to shit out regardless of whether the state of the game is good or not for the professionals is evidence of this. their priority is not to make league an outstanding esport; it is and always has been to make the game attractive to the masses.
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On January 04 2019 18:53 M2 wrote:
Honestly I doubt that RIot's goal is to balance the game and/or to design the champions towards balanced and competitive gameplay direction. Most of Riot's efforts are towards what will attract as many people as possible to play without giving up the game. So I suppose they have their research what makes people come and go and balanced game is probably not one of the reasons, at least not for the masses, hence, we get what we have now, with zillions of bugs, imbalances, retarded matchmaking, beautiful skins and cinematic, drastic changes all the time and new champs every other day
I've supported this belief since S4, game design is money first, balance second because it's a necessary evil. Although I don't quite get the bugs part, LoL is a lot less buggy than it was in the past, except Morde (hilarious they still haven't cleaned him up, don't like 1k people work at Riot?).
Aiming for Perfect Imbalance is a way more intersting than aiming for Perfect Balance
Riot has never reached perfect imbalance, or ever been in a place where I would consider it. This is another argument that has been brought up time and time again, and I don't buy it. The reason being that if the game is imbalanced, then it implies something is not good with the game. Sometimes we end up with League of Cleavers, other times we end up with the juggernaut patch. Right now jungle is wildly influential on the game, and DH Karthus is most likely super broken.
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On January 05 2019 06:11 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2019 18:53 M2 wrote:
Honestly I doubt that RIot's goal is to balance the game and/or to design the champions towards balanced and competitive gameplay direction. Most of Riot's efforts are towards what will attract as many people as possible to play without giving up the game. So I suppose they have their research what makes people come and go and balanced game is probably not one of the reasons, at least not for the masses, hence, we get what we have now, with zillions of bugs, imbalances, retarded matchmaking, beautiful skins and cinematic, drastic changes all the time and new champs every other day I've supported this belief since S4, game design is money first, balance second because it's a necessary evil. Although I don't quite get the bugs part, LoL is a lot less buggy than it was in the past, except Morde (hilarious they still haven't cleaned him up, don't like 1k people work at Riot?). Show nested quote +Aiming for Perfect Imbalance is a way more intersting than aiming for Perfect Balance Riot has never reached perfect imbalance, or ever been in a place where I would consider it. This is another argument that has been brought up time and time again, and I don't buy it. The reason being that if the game is imbalanced, then it implies something is not good with the game. Sometimes we end up with League of Cleavers, other times we end up with the juggernaut patch. Right now jungle is wildly influential on the game, and DH Karthus is most likely super broken.
I agree, I don't think Riot's philosophy is close to balance or "imbalance" its "Homogeneous, but with a twist." That is why every good mid has waveclear, why Kai Sai is a Vayne on Ecstasy, there aren't really any profound "lategame" champions anymore, etc.
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Does anyone have the feeling that people who play this game are objectively very bad at it. I am talking only from my personal perspective, but at some point I was few seasons in diamond, putting like half of the effort I was putting in Broodwar in the past, I am also very old for gaming - 39, and diamond is supposed to be top 1.5-2%, with these amount of effort I will be top 30% maximum in starcraft or warcraft for example. Additionally, something that is 100% objective, even in diamond the supposed to be top 2% there are people who don't know what some champs do, items, runes, camps respawn times etc, people who do not know the basics of the game, its like playing broodwar and something is killing you from the fog of war but you have no idea what is siege tank and that it can do this. Maybe not the best example, but you cannot claim or even think of being good at something if you do not even know the basics. Do you think what I say makes sense?
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Yes, but at the same time BW has a lot less going on with it on a game mechanics level.
I don't have the best mechanics in the word because I'm not very dexterous and I find drilling to improve them mind numbingly boring, so when I get into a game where there's a desire to be good at it(usually some competitive aspect because of how my personality is) I make an effort to alleviate that by flat out knowing shit. However, with League there's so much shit to remember and it's changing all the time.
Before the Gragas rework in S4, how many non-Gragas players do you think knew Barrel Roll had an AS slow too?
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On January 06 2019 00:14 Gahlo wrote:
Yes, but at the same time BW has a lot less going on with it on a game mechanics level.
I don't have the best mechanics in the word because I'm not very dexterous and I find drilling to improve them mind numbingly boring, so when I get into a game where there's a desire to be good at it(usually some competitive aspect because of how my personality is) I make an effort to alleviate that by flat out knowing shit. However, with League there's so much shit to remember and it's changing all the time.
Before the Gragas rework in S4, how many non-Gragas players do you think knew Barrel Roll had an AS slow too?
I dont question or argue this, I am just saying that if you do not know the basics of something, you are objectively incapable of being good at it. League is more complex with more stuff in it, however, it does not excuse people for not learning them and being bad at it. Also its nothing wrong with people being bad in league, it was just an observation that I had
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Before the Gragas rework in S4, how many non-Gragas players do you think knew Barrel Roll had an AS slow too?
Not me that's for sure.
I agree, the lack of knowledge in this game is astonishing. I'm seeing people with 2k games stuck in gold/plat, and it shows in their games: no map vision/awareness, can't cs even if the opponent lets them, completely oblivious to obvious counters (Yasuo into Karma Cait, really???), and the most important one, learning not to feed. And I've seen the same shit in Diamond as well, getting to D5 doesn't really feel like an achievement.
Is it game design? Or are people just dumb? It's weird, usually if you do something repetitively you get better at it, but the return on investment for LoL seems to be pretty low, myself included.
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On January 06 2019 04:13 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +Before the Gragas rework in S4, how many non-Gragas players do you think knew Barrel Roll had an AS slow too? Not me that's for sure. I agree, the lack of knowledge in this game is astonishing. I'm seeing people with 2k games stuck in gold/plat, and it shows in their games: no map vision/awareness, can't cs even if the opponent lets them, completely oblivious to obvious counters (Yasuo into Karma Cait, really???), and the most important one, learning not to feed. And I've seen the same shit in Diamond as well, getting to D5 doesn't really feel like an achievement. Is it game design? Or are people just dumb? It's weird, usually if you do something repetitively you get better at it, but the return on investment for LoL seems to be pretty low, myself included.
Playing in high diamond/master games and watching my mid play on the side with no vision and where I'm not on, die and blame me like... How the fuck did you even get here? It's honestly because of the fact voice doesn't exist. Also, people in LoL seem so averse to taking any advice. Tell anyone to do anything in chat and they'll take it as that you told their mother to get cancer and die.
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On January 04 2019 12:05 evilfatsh1t wrote:
compare league to dota, where new heroes are fresh and quirky but dont have retarded numbers and arent either op or trash. if were talking about design boundaries, dota completely shits on league, yet they dont suffer from nearly as many balance issues.
I dunno, Grimstroke, Winter Wyvern, Earth Spirit, however-that-make-a-clone-dude-is-named all received very heavy number nerfs for multiple patches in a row before even being included in captain's mode, and even after.
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On January 06 2019 04:24 AdsMoFro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2019 04:13 DarkCore wrote:Before the Gragas rework in S4, how many non-Gragas players do you think knew Barrel Roll had an AS slow too? Not me that's for sure. I agree, the lack of knowledge in this game is astonishing. I'm seeing people with 2k games stuck in gold/plat, and it shows in their games: no map vision/awareness, can't cs even if the opponent lets them, completely oblivious to obvious counters (Yasuo into Karma Cait, really???), and the most important one, learning not to feed. And I've seen the same shit in Diamond as well, getting to D5 doesn't really feel like an achievement. Is it game design? Or are people just dumb? It's weird, usually if you do something repetitively you get better at it, but the return on investment for LoL seems to be pretty low, myself included. Playing in high diamond/master games and watching my mid play on the side with no vision and where I'm not on, die and blame me like... How the fuck did you even get here? It's honestly because of the fact voice doesn't exist. Also, people in LoL seem so averse to taking any advice. Tell anyone to do anything in chat and they'll take it as that you told their mother to get cancer and die.
Couldn't agree more, and its why I pretty much never play the game anymore. Its just not fun to be in a game with a bunch of people that have no clue what they're doing and refuse to listen to someone that does. I obviously don't make the right call all the time, but there's just obvious shit that grinds you down game after game when no one else will listen
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On January 06 2019 04:40 JimmiC wrote:
Perhaps that is because you start the advice with "listen asshole ...
Oh, you pg-13'd my advice
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I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego.
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On January 05 2019 23:59 M2 wrote:
Does anyone have the feeling that people who play this game are objectively very bad at it. I am talking only from my personal perspective, but at some point I was few seasons in diamond, putting like half of the effort I was putting in Broodwar in the past, I am also very old for gaming - 39, and diamond is supposed to be top 1.5-2%, with these amount of effort I will be top 30% maximum in starcraft or warcraft for example. Additionally, something that is 100% objective, even in diamond the supposed to be top 2% there are people who don't know what some champs do, items, runes, camps respawn times etc, people who do not know the basics of the game, its like playing broodwar and something is killing you from the fog of war but you have no idea what is siege tank and that it can do this. Maybe not the best example, but you cannot claim or even think of being good at something if you do not even know the basics. Do you think what I say makes sense?
It makes sense but I agree and disagree (I sound like a politician now).
I think people can be good and/or bad at a lot of things in games like League and occasionally a weakness get exposed really hard making the player seem worse than they are comparable to their MMR I mean watch TF Blade's stream sometimes he completely obliterate his opponent making him look like a bronze scrub yet it's a challenger. Players that are bad at objectives run into a team with players that are good at objective play can get exposed, likewise weak laners vs strong laners, bad teamfighters vs good teamfighters etc adding autofill to the equation to skew it even more. I dont think it's until high diamond (hell probably even higher) you actually need to be strong at multiple facets of the game.
Take myself for instance I'm basically trash at anything but being carried, tracking the enemy jungler and calming my teammates down (guess that's why I main Janna lol) I am not good at actually playing the game yet I win often because I am good at something else. I'm the type of player that looks like a boosted animal from a mechanically point of view but manage to climb to D5. The only reason I can do fancy stuff on Janna (yes, she have a couple of combos that actually require practice) is because I have literally thousands of games on her.
The best example I can think of about a high rank "bad" player is Jayne in Overwatch. He is not a particular outstanding player but he is 4000+ just from being smart. As he said after last placements, "I'm not good at playing the game but I sure know how to play it" (it was something like that).
In regards to your BW vs League example in teamgames you can sort of "hide" your flaws, but in 1v1 games they can easily be exposed. If you take real life sports upsets happen much more frequently in football than in badminton solos where they basically never happen.
On January 06 2019 09:08 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego.
This is basically what I am trying to say.
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On January 05 2019 23:59 M2 wrote:
Does anyone have the feeling that people who play this game are objectively very bad at it. I am talking only from my personal perspective, but at some point I was few seasons in diamond, putting like half of the effort I was putting in Broodwar in the past, I am also very old for gaming - 39, and diamond is supposed to be top 1.5-2%, with these amount of effort I will be top 30% maximum in starcraft or warcraft for example. Additionally, something that is 100% objective, even in diamond the supposed to be top 2% there are people who don't know what some champs do, items, runes, camps respawn times etc, people who do not know the basics of the game, its like playing broodwar and something is killing you from the fog of war but you have no idea what is siege tank and that it can do this. Maybe not the best example, but you cannot claim or even think of being good at something if you do not even know the basics. Do you think what I say makes sense?
i first noticed it when i was starting to learn league and i watched pros streams. these "pros", (bjergsen, later peanut, pray, bang etc) were clueless to so many aspects of the game that didnt happen in their specific lane. getting rolled a different lane and then having to ask a teammate in the room "what do i skill on this guy" and "what item should i get right now" was shocking. that kind of shit is unheard of in dota. theyre obviously very good at their own lanes but still.
and i hate to be that guy that constantly shits on league and compares it with dota but unfortunately i cant help it. the reason we see people in higher elos still doing boosted shit and being clueless is because the game is designed in a way that if you play a champ with good numbers and you hit your skills more than your opponent, you will win. a good example of this is the fact that you can climb very high by using scripts. no decision making necessary, just dodge and hit. you cant climb in dota using scripts, not that i know any exist anysay.
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On January 06 2019 09:08 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego.
Or alternatively the mistakes you do notice about yourself aren't nearly as "game ending" as the things people are referring too. For example, I may not be the best cs'er (I'm a support main anyway but the point still stands), but me being up 10 cs instead of down 10 cs doesn't win the team a game when your teammates don't understand that sacrificing tier 2, tier 3, and an inhib to take baron isn't a good idea when you aren't in the position to take advantage of it. The concept that baron timer is significantly shorter than inhib timer is not difficult, and its things like that information (and the fact that your teammates find it toxic if you try to inform them) that grinds you down. There's something you can improve on yourself every single game you play, but some games are literally unwinnable because some rando on your team doesn't have a clue, and that grinds you down.
People are in the same MMR but have completely different skillsets, which sounds to me like what you're arguing (and I agree), you can fix YOUR mechanics with practice, but you can't fix someone elses brain. Trust me when I say I understand the value of reading into your mistakes, I went from copper (a league so fucking bad they got rid of it) to top diamond/low master MMR in SC2 largely off the back of learning from my mistakes.
EDIT: I should stress I make my fair share of game ending mistakes and by no means am trying to imply that I don't
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On January 06 2019 09:08 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego.
Nah, I know I'm trash but I can follow someone better than me. My ability in getting carried exceeds my ability carrying
>don't go looking for my vi game plz
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Getting carried is a skill in itself, it implies not feeding so you must be doing more right than the average player.
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On January 06 2019 13:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2019 09:08 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego. Or alternatively the mistakes you do notice about yourself aren't nearly as "game ending" as the things people are referring too. For example, I may not be the best cs'er (I'm a support main anyway but the point still stands), but me being up 10 cs instead of down 10 cs doesn't win the team a game when your teammates don't understand that sacrificing tier 2, tier 3, and an inhib to take baron isn't a good idea when you aren't in the position to take advantage of it. The concept that baron timer is significantly shorter than inhib timer is not difficult, and its things like that information (and the fact that your teammates find it toxic if you try to inform them) that grinds you down. There's something you can improve on yourself every single game you play, but some games are literally unwinnable because some rando on your team doesn't have a clue, and that grinds you down. People are in the same MMR but have completely different skillsets, which sounds to me like what you're arguing (and I agree), you can fix YOUR mechanics with practice, but you can't fix someone elses brain. Trust me when I say I understand the value of reading into your mistakes, I went from copper (a league so fucking bad they got rid of it) to top diamond/low master MMR in SC2 largely off the back of learning from my mistakes. EDIT: I should stress I make my fair share of game ending mistakes and by no means am trying to imply that I don't
Nothing is fixable, either you're good or you aren't, life is deterministic.
But serious for a second, those 20 cs earlygame differentials do actually matter in some games, the same way baron decision-making matters in some.
I highly doubt your view of the baron situation is objectively correct. Your teammates probably had non-horrible plans as well, it's just the combination of all 5 ideas that led to the bad end result.
I've also yet to find a single person who has been unfairly called out for being a dick when giving "advice" to teammates without extensive prior chat. Chances are you were being a dick.
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On January 06 2019 13:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2019 09:08 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego. Or alternatively the mistakes you do notice about yourself aren't nearly as "game ending" as the things people are referring too. For example, I may not be the best cs'er (I'm a support main anyway but the point still stands), but me being up 10 cs instead of down 10 cs doesn't win the team a game when your teammates don't understand that sacrificing tier 2, tier 3, and an inhib to take baron isn't a good idea when you aren't in the position to take advantage of it. The concept that baron timer is significantly shorter than inhib timer is not difficult, and its things like that information (and the fact that your teammates find it toxic if you try to inform them) that grinds you down. There's something you can improve on yourself every single game you play, but some games are literally unwinnable because some rando on your team doesn't have a clue, and that grinds you down. People are in the same MMR but have completely different skillsets, which sounds to me like what you're arguing (and I agree), you can fix YOUR mechanics with practice, but you can't fix someone elses brain. Trust me when I say I understand the value of reading into your mistakes, I went from copper (a league so fucking bad they got rid of it) to top diamond/low master MMR in SC2 largely off the back of learning from my mistakes. EDIT: I should stress I make my fair share of game ending mistakes and by no means am trying to imply that I don't
well you're basically saying that the things you're bad at don't lose the game instantly, but they can setup a situation to allow a single mistake to lose the game instantly. Situations where someone gets caught you lose baron and eventually lose the game typically happen in relatively even games, if you snowball your game off small leads you can literally int at the enemy base like 3 times and they won't be able to do much anyway.
Also you said you make game ending mistakes too, but less often. Well guess what there are 4 teamates so there are 4 different people every game who can each make a game losing mistake so no shit its them more often than you, especially since you're a support main who typically focus more on map and objective play rather than other roles who tend to focus a bit more on getting strong and snowballing off their own power
On January 06 2019 11:09 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2019 23:59 M2 wrote:
Does anyone have the feeling that people who play this game are objectively very bad at it. I am talking only from my personal perspective, but at some point I was few seasons in diamond, putting like half of the effort I was putting in Broodwar in the past, I am also very old for gaming - 39, and diamond is supposed to be top 1.5-2%, with these amount of effort I will be top 30% maximum in starcraft or warcraft for example. Additionally, something that is 100% objective, even in diamond the supposed to be top 2% there are people who don't know what some champs do, items, runes, camps respawn times etc, people who do not know the basics of the game, its like playing broodwar and something is killing you from the fog of war but you have no idea what is siege tank and that it can do this. Maybe not the best example, but you cannot claim or even think of being good at something if you do not even know the basics. Do you think what I say makes sense? i first noticed it when i was starting to learn league and i watched pros streams. these "pros", (bjergsen, later peanut, pray, bang etc) were clueless to so many aspects of the game that didnt happen in their specific lane. getting rolled a different lane and then having to ask a teammate in the room "what do i skill on this guy" and "what item should i get right now" was shocking. that kind of shit is unheard of in dota. theyre obviously very good at their own lanes but still. and i hate to be that guy that constantly shits on league and compares it with dota but unfortunately i cant help it. the reason we see people in higher elos still doing boosted shit and being clueless is because the game is designed in a way that if you play a champ with good numbers and you hit your skills more than your opponent, you will win. a good example of this is the fact that you can climb very high by using scripts. no decision making necessary, just dodge and hit. you cant climb in dota using scripts, not that i know any exist anysay.
I see people in the top of the ladder dota having like 50 APM, I hate to be the guy who compares different games for absolutely no reason, but that shit is unheard of in BW. They only get away with it in dota because the game is designed in such a way that if you use your 4 skills at the correct time you can win the game without having to press many buttons and only minimal amounts of clicking.
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i can see youre either a troll or lack the required intelligence to have a conversation with.
if you cannot see why a pro dota/bw comparison is not even close to being similar to pro dota/lol then i will say no more
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On January 06 2019 23:38 evilfatsh1t wrote:
i can see youre either a troll or lack the required intelligence to have a conversation with.
if you cannot see why a pro dota/bw comparison is not even close to being similar to pro dota/lol then i will say no more
All you're doing is zooming in on a genre.
DoTA requires more skill than League and both are mobas therefore dota is better.
DoTA and BW are both video games and BW requires more skill so therefore BW is better.
At the end of the day the objective of games are not to make them as difficult to play as possible, but to make them interesting and fun, both to play and to watch.
Just because DoTA is harder to play doesn't make it better designed. League is one of the most popular games in the world and is very widely both watched and played, to me that means it's extremely well designed. Not to say dota isn't.
I don't even understand why you feel the need to compare league and dota in every post? If you think dota is better go and play dota and stop posting on a league forum.
I mean I personally find league to be a garbage spectator sport, so I watch pro BW games instead, I don't go around complaining about how terrible pro league is to watch, I just watch the BW vods.
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im not saying dota is better designed because its harder to play. im saying the game is designed better (from a purely balancing and champion design standpoint) because it allows the developers more freedom to make changes without ruining the balance of the game.
if your game is dumbed down and bland from the get go then you are shackled by those limits forever. anything you introduce later on that is a bit too strong is op and anytime you try something fresh it becomes too complicated (stuff like akali neeko). look at how many champions in lol have similar skills. there are only so many skills riot can come up with that are genuinely unique and within the bounds of what they originally created, before they have to start making new skills that will be considered op or risk pretty much changing the colour scheme of a current skill and reusing it.
thats what you call bad game design. we could go further into this and talk about item complexity, macro elements, skillsets required by pros in terms of knowledge and decision making etc but its beside the point.
and i played dota for 9 years before i wanted a change of scenery. despite all of leagues flaws with its shit design and riot games being a joke of a game developer (from a esports fans perspective), i get enjoyment out of juking skillshots and blowing people up. that doesnt mean i think league is better, nor does it mean im not allowed to play league and have to stick to what ive played for almost 10 years.
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how do you know the dota developers have so much more freedom to make changes? DOTA has been around for way way more than league of legends and league has more playable characters (according to a quick google)
"dumbed down and bland" is just your opinion that basically stems from "dota is better because it is harder"
and I'm guessing dota has no balance issues or op heroes?
also, being hard to make additions to the game doesn't mean it's badly designed. If the game is in a good state it makes sense it could be easy to fuck it up with changes.
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Are we going for a record of how many gd rules we break before ads remembers hes supposed to be a mod
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On January 07 2019 02:38 AlterKot wrote:
Are we going for a record of how many gd rules we break before ads remembers hes supposed to be a mod
Quick we need to talk about Warwick support and what is a bruiser.
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On January 07 2019 02:38 AlterKot wrote:
Are we going for a record of how many gd rules we break before ads remembers hes supposed to be a mod
is posting in this forum breaking a rule now or what did I miss?
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On January 07 2019 01:46 Slayer91 wrote:
also, being hard to make additions to the game doesn't mean it's badly designed. If the game is in a good state it makes sense it could be easy to fuck it up with changes.
Good point: why should we need more heroes, items etc. Isn't there enough already? I'm guessing this is indeed for marketing purposes that riot continues to introduce new stuff.
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On January 07 2019 03:27 10bulgares wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2019 01:46 Slayer91 wrote:
also, being hard to make additions to the game doesn't mean it's badly designed. If the game is in a good state it makes sense it could be easy to fuck it up with changes. Good point: why should we need more heroes, items etc. Isn't there enough already? I'm guessing this is indeed for marketing purposes that riot continues to introduce new stuff.
yea, to keep people interested, i guess
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On January 07 2019 02:52 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2019 02:38 AlterKot wrote:
Are we going for a record of how many gd rules we break before ads remembers hes supposed to be a mod Quick we need to talk about Warwick support and what is a bruiser.
I've been playing a lot of Nunu support recently and I think it's pretty good as long as your ADC doesn't alt-f4. It has really good roams and it can steal crabs from enemy junglers.
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On January 07 2019 05:00 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2019 02:52 Jek wrote:On January 07 2019 02:38 AlterKot wrote:
Are we going for a record of how many gd rules we break before ads remembers hes supposed to be a mod Quick we need to talk about Warwick support and what is a bruiser. I've been playing a lot of Nunu support recently and I think it's pretty good as long as your ADC doesn't alt-f4. It has really good roams and it can steal crabs from enemy junglers.
Another shitty support. Maokai. Don't try it. It actually does suck idk what i was thinking tbh.
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Maokai is just inferior support Shaco.
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Daily reminder WW support has 100% winratio in NA inhouses.
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i get enjoyment out of juking skillshots and blowing people up
This is also why I could never get into Dota. When I played SC2, all I did was micro around with marines, and I get that craving by playing ADC in League.
I will never see WW support if I play support, #thinkingcap... Though I have seen ADC Soraka this week
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On the subject of bad yet surprisingly less bad than they sound supports; Ezreal ap support works surprisingly well.
Start frost queens and take mana flow band and aerie gathering storm. Skill order is Q E W then max W then max Q. You have a ton of poke early and massive one shot damage late. Build frost queens, ludens, lich bane.
If you play it well you do damage like zyra or brand but don’t get caught and blown up because of your E. You of course don’t have any cc so your ADC is less happy than if you were brand, but you out damage your adc half the time so they can’t really complain in post game chat.
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On January 07 2019 05:15 AlterKot wrote:
Daily reminder WW support has 100% winratio in NA inhouses.
TBF, new Warwick is much less of a troll support than old Warwick support was, namely he can like... gap close + has pre-6 CC, so therefore actually has lane pressure. I also imagine his all in is likely disgusting in bottom lane with W. Not to mention, his E still makes him tanky as balls even if he has no gold.
If you had the better early game ADC I could theoretically see him styling on like... Soraka / Brand / Sona. Although, if you had like Vayne and they had like Cait or some shit it'd be awful the other way. I could also theoretically see him stomping tanky playmaker supports without a gap closer, like Nautilus / Kench / Sion.
Idk, i could see it actually being a thing. Probably still troll as hell tho.
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On January 07 2019 01:46 Slayer91 wrote:
how do you know the dota developers have so much more freedom to make changes? DOTA has been around for way way more than league of legends and league has more playable characters (according to a quick google)
"dumbed down and bland" is just your opinion that basically stems from "dota is better because it is harder"
and I'm guessing dota has no balance issues or op heroes?
also, being hard to make additions to the game doesn't mean it's badly designed. If the game is in a good state it makes sense it could be easy to fuck it up with changes.
ok so its pretty obvious youve never played dota so ill explain.
the amount of characters available is irrelevant. obviously league is going to have more when theyve made it their philosophy to shit out characters every few months for revenue generation.
you have to look at the skill and item designs that both games have. its not a question of adjusting numbers, its about adding uniqueness and utility to the game with each new addition. the last 4 new heroes in dota have skills that are unique to the game and in general most skills in dota have utility that makes those characters serve a purpose in the game other than the fact that they do damage.
now look at league. neeko has a buffed syndra q, buffed lux q and buffed amumu ult. the amount of champions that have skills that are not only seen in other champions, but are also so one dimensional that the damage numbers are what matters more. look at what determines meta champs. in jungle 99% of the time the best junglers are determined by sheer clear speed and 1v1 strength before looking at the utility they bring. i consider gragas ult to have fair utility by league standards, but you gut his clear a bit and he will never see the light of say regardless of how useful his kit is.
we could go all day if we talk about itemisation also. pretty much only 2 things matter in league itemisation. the actual values of the stats it provides and the efficiency of assembly. you have some item effects here and there like redemption but compared to dota where 90% of items have an active skill aspect, league is childs play. thats what you call freedom in the development department. icefrog can continue to think up new ideas for skills and items that have never been seen before in dota and not worry that its going to be too strong. basically league is too one dimensional.
On January 07 2019 06:11 DarkCore wrote:This is also why I could never get into Dota. When I played SC2, all I did was micro around with marines, and I get that craving by playing ADC in League. I will never see WW support if I play support, #thinkingcap... Though I have seen ADC Soraka this week
yeah most of the games i lose in league is because im standing in front of the enemy trying to dodge skillshots and i get picked off, rather than me doing the sensible thing and trying to win the game lol
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On January 07 2019 01:29 evilfatsh1t wrote:
im not saying dota is better designed because its harder to play. im saying the game is designed better (from a purely balancing and champion design standpoint) because it allows the developers more freedom to make changes without ruining the balance of the game.
if your game is dumbed down and bland from the get go then you are shackled by those limits forever. anything you introduce later on that is a bit too strong is op and anytime you try something fresh it becomes too complicated (stuff like akali neeko). look at how many champions in lol have similar skills. there are only so many skills riot can come up with that are genuinely unique and within the bounds of what they originally created, before they have to start making new skills that will be considered op or risk pretty much changing the colour scheme of a current skill and reusing it.
thats what you call bad game design. we could go further into this and talk about item complexity, macro elements, skillsets required by pros in terms of knowledge and decision making etc but its beside the point.
and i played dota for 9 years before i wanted a change of scenery. despite all of leagues flaws with its shit design and riot games being a joke of a game developer (from a esports fans perspective), i get enjoyment out of juking skillshots and blowing people up. that doesnt mean i think league is better, nor does it mean im not allowed to play league and have to stick to what ive played for almost 10 years.
This is, frankly, stupid.
LoL has been doing stuff that is so way out there that it feels completely gimmicky, actually. One example that jumps out in my mind, albeit a little old now, is if you pick Skarner, mysterious diamonds appear on the map that otherwise aren't even there in every other LoL game you play. And you say that LoL is just stuck making no innovative changes? I read that and thought "wow, how stupid, they can't design heroes that feel original to play without upending the whole game like that?". And that, if anything, is the problem with the design in LoL.
The champions are too unique, or at least, certainly too complex. I don't necessarily mean complex as in hard to play, but in the sense that to even describe a modern champion's abilities you now need 5 lines per ability. And because all that shit is there jumping out at you, you have no idea what is a good skill build unless you've played 20 games on the champion or look up a guide. How can you simultaneously argue that all the LoL heroes are too alike, and that "in Dota2 it's unheard of that a pro wouldn't know how to play another lane!". You don't even realise that you're completely contradicting yourself.
Good design in a MOBA means creating heroes/champions with fun and unique play patterns. You can actually do this just by changing numbers, or the areas hit by AoE skillshots, whatever. Lion and Lina are almost identical, but feel totally different. This is something I would say Dota2 realises better than LoL, but actually, it feels like the design teams of all MOBA games feel like they can't ever re-use a skill with tweaked numbers, and it's because there are idiots like you going around saying "but that's just X's Q, and Y's E, how boring!".
And I don't say this as a LoL fanboy. I'm a Dota2 player, because HoN died. I've played two games of LoL in my life. I had to edit everywhere I said "hero" to say "champion". I check out the LoL stuff on here mostly because I like spectating it.
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On January 07 2019 13:16 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2019 01:29 evilfatsh1t wrote:
im not saying dota is better designed because its harder to play. im saying the game is designed better (from a purely balancing and champion design standpoint) because it allows the developers more freedom to make changes without ruining the balance of the game.
if your game is dumbed down and bland from the get go then you are shackled by those limits forever. anything you introduce later on that is a bit too strong is op and anytime you try something fresh it becomes too complicated (stuff like akali neeko). look at how many champions in lol have similar skills. there are only so many skills riot can come up with that are genuinely unique and within the bounds of what they originally created, before they have to start making new skills that will be considered op or risk pretty much changing the colour scheme of a current skill and reusing it.
thats what you call bad game design. we could go further into this and talk about item complexity, macro elements, skillsets required by pros in terms of knowledge and decision making etc but its beside the point.
and i played dota for 9 years before i wanted a change of scenery. despite all of leagues flaws with its shit design and riot games being a joke of a game developer (from a esports fans perspective), i get enjoyment out of juking skillshots and blowing people up. that doesnt mean i think league is better, nor does it mean im not allowed to play league and have to stick to what ive played for almost 10 years. This is, frankly, stupid. LoL has been doing stuff that is so way out there that it feels completely gimmicky, actually. One example that jumps out in my mind, albeit a little old now, is if you pick Skarner, mysterious diamonds appear on the map that otherwise aren't even there in every other LoL game you play. And you say that LoL is just stuck making no innovative changes? I read that and thought "wow, how stupid, they can't design heroes that feel original to play without upending the whole game like that?". And that, if anything, is the problem with the design in LoL. The champions are too unique, or at least, certainly too complex. I don't necessarily mean complex as in hard to play, but in the sense that to even describe a modern champion's abilities you now need 5 lines per ability. And because all that shit is there jumping out at you, you have no idea what is a good skill build unless you've played 20 games on the champion or look up a guide. How can you simultaneously argue that all the LoL heroes are too alike, and that "in Dota2 it's unheard of that a pro wouldn't know how to play another lane!". You don't even realise that you're completely contradicting yourself. Good design in a MOBA means creating heroes/champions with fun and unique play patterns. You can actually do this just by changing numbers, or the areas hit by AoE skillshots, whatever. Lion and Lina are almost identical, but feel totally different. This is something I would say Dota2 realises better than LoL, but actually, it feels like the design teams of all MOBA games feel like they can't ever re-use a skill with tweaked numbers, and it's because there are idiots like you going around saying "but that's just X's Q, and Y's E, how boring!". And I don't say this as a LoL fanboy. I'm a Dota2 player, because HoN died. I've played two games of LoL in my life. I had to edit everywhere I said "hero" to say "champion". I check out the LoL stuff on here mostly because I like spectating it.
Skarner is kinda an example of his point though. The diamonds for Skarner were a pretty stupid gimmick that ended up making his long term viability hard to sustain.
Just as a general rule I'd say there are two (maybe 2.5) main gameplay differences and two philosophy differences in LOL compared to DOTA that makes the game seem less balanced and more homogeneous. Gameplay: 1) Lack of TP scrolls; 2) Jungle is much smaller and less interactive (also be basic 1112 laning that this imposes, I don't know if that deserves its own number). Philosophy: 1) Linear power scaling, they have really curbed lategame and earlygame dominators as a general rule; 2) Conservation of resources, mana costs have never been high in LOL, and they've gone down over the years so that most people can spam most the time.
I think all that constrains things in ways DOTA design isn't. However, it isn't all bad. It does mean that so long as your favorite team doesn't pick a hoplessly out of touch set of characters you can still sketch a path to victory midgame, whereas I do think that sometimes the DOTA pick/bans can often result in seeing a team and saying, "welp they better get 3 bounty runes every time, a huge CS lead, and the first Rosh else, gg."
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On January 07 2019 15:13 cLutZ wrote:Skarner is kinda an example of his point though. The diamonds for Skarner were a pretty stupid gimmick that ended up making his long term viability hard to sustain.
I'm not sure I see how a stupid gimmick (I agree, it is that) is evidence that LoL has no ideas and keeps re-using old skills, which is what he claimed.
For a more recent example, everyone is bitching about how Akali "breaks the rules of stealth". Again, doing something totally new (whether for better or worse).
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LoL has no ideas? Please explain every champion since Rek'sai then? (Side note: Revert Rek and delete every champion since Rek'sai please. I need my queen back to make challenger)
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On January 07 2019 01:29 evilfatsh1t wrote:
anytime you try something fresh it becomes too complicated (stuff like akali neeko)
On January 07 2019 09:38 evilfatsh1t wrote:
neeko has a buffed syndra q, buffed lux q and buffed amumu ult
Simultaneously calling Neeko fresh, and derivative, depending on which point he's trying to make at the time.
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On January 07 2019 16:17 AdsMoFro wrote:
LoL has no ideas? Please explain every champion since Rek'sai then? (Side note: Revert Rek and delete every champion since Rek'sai please. I need my queen back to make challenger)
I can get on with this, ADC would be a lot easier without all the broken champs. No Pyke or Zoe!
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On January 07 2019 13:16 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2019 01:29 evilfatsh1t wrote:
im not saying dota is better designed because its harder to play. im saying the game is designed better (from a purely balancing and champion design standpoint) because it allows the developers more freedom to make changes without ruining the balance of the game.
if your game is dumbed down and bland from the get go then you are shackled by those limits forever. anything you introduce later on that is a bit too strong is op and anytime you try something fresh it becomes too complicated (stuff like akali neeko). look at how many champions in lol have similar skills. there are only so many skills riot can come up with that are genuinely unique and within the bounds of what they originally created, before they have to start making new skills that will be considered op or risk pretty much changing the colour scheme of a current skill and reusing it.
thats what you call bad game design. we could go further into this and talk about item complexity, macro elements, skillsets required by pros in terms of knowledge and decision making etc but its beside the point.
and i played dota for 9 years before i wanted a change of scenery. despite all of leagues flaws with its shit design and riot games being a joke of a game developer (from a esports fans perspective), i get enjoyment out of juking skillshots and blowing people up. that doesnt mean i think league is better, nor does it mean im not allowed to play league and have to stick to what ive played for almost 10 years. This is, frankly, stupid. LoL has been doing stuff that is so way out there that it feels completely gimmicky, actually. One example that jumps out in my mind, albeit a little old now, is if you pick Skarner, mysterious diamonds appear on the map that otherwise aren't even there in every other LoL game you play. And you say that LoL is just stuck making no innovative changes? I read that and thought "wow, how stupid, they can't design heroes that feel original to play without upending the whole game like that?". And that, if anything, is the problem with the design in LoL. The champions are too unique, or at least, certainly too complex. I don't necessarily mean complex as in hard to play, but in the sense that to even describe a modern champion's abilities you now need 5 lines per ability. And because all that shit is there jumping out at you, you have no idea what is a good skill build unless you've played 20 games on the champion or look up a guide. How can you simultaneously argue that all the LoL heroes are too alike, and that "in Dota2 it's unheard of that a pro wouldn't know how to play another lane!". You don't even realise that you're completely contradicting yourself.Good design in a MOBA means creating heroes/champions with fun and unique play patterns. You can actually do this just by changing numbers, or the areas hit by AoE skillshots, whatever. Lion and Lina are almost identical, but feel totally different. This is something I would say Dota2 realises better than LoL, but actually, it feels like the design teams of all MOBA games feel like they can't ever re-use a skill with tweaked numbers, and it's because there are idiots like you going around saying "but that's just X's Q, and Y's E, how boring!". And I don't say this as a LoL fanboy. I'm a Dota2 player, because HoN died. I've played two games of LoL in my life. I had to edit everywhere I said "hero" to say "champion". I check out the LoL stuff on here mostly because I like spectating it.
im not contradicting myself. im straight up calling league pros worse than dota pros when it comes to understanding their own game. im not even going to attempt to sugarcoat it. league pros rely on their mechanical ability MUCH more than their knowledge of the game. if you want to disagree thats fine, but im not going to go into this further because discussing this will require massive amounts of text on its own. i will say this though, there are very few players i would consider to have a deep enough knowledge of league that could be comparable to the understanding dota pros have of dota. faker and dopa are the first to come to mind; not because of their mid lane prowess but because of their overall understanding of every other lane, champion, champion nuances and macro aspects of the game. i watch a LOT of pro streams in korean and they are literally the only two that demonstrate such depth in their knowledge. bang, pray, peanut, wolf, khan, bjergsen etc. all show on stream that they arent certain about a lot of the things they do when they dont play their role. this isnt even something theyre ashamed of, its just standard for lol pros.
On January 07 2019 16:15 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2019 15:13 cLutZ wrote:Skarner is kinda an example of his point though. The diamonds for Skarner were a pretty stupid gimmick that ended up making his long term viability hard to sustain. I'm not sure I see how a stupid gimmick (I agree, it is that) is evidence that LoL has no ideas and keeps re-using old skills, which is what he claimed. For a more recent example, everyone is bitching about how Akali "breaks the rules of stealth". Again, doing something totally new (whether for better or worse).
akali makes my point. riot gave akali a new mechanic and it was op as fuck. they are trying to balance it now by increasing the fade out time.
neeko has some abilities that are pretty much the same as other characters but what i was referring to by neeko being different is her shapeshifting and w skill.
also you make it seem like im arguing that league has 100 of the same characters. im obviously not, im saying the amount of different things they can try is severely limited because of the way the game was initially designed. in contrast a game like dota opens itself up to so many possibilities because there are so many other possibilities that already exist. the end result is not a game that has too many op skills that it cannot be balanced at all, but a game that can be balanced quite easily by simply creating more interactions with other skills and heroes. adjusting numbers is obviously something that goes without saying.
On January 07 2019 15:13 cLutZ wrote:
I think all that constrains things in ways DOTA design isn't. However, it isn't all bad. It does mean that so long as your favorite team doesn't pick a hoplessly out of touch set of characters you can still sketch a path to victory midgame, whereas I do think that sometimes the DOTA pick/bans can often result in seeing a team and saying, "welp they better get 3 bounty runes every time, a huge CS lead, and the first Rosh else, gg."
actually i consider hero viability and variance in draft to be generally much higher in dota too, though to be fair i havent followed the dota scene in a while so im not sure what the drafting is like at this moment.
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What does Sona even dumpster in bot lane now?
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On January 07 2019 21:30 Alaric wrote:
What does Sona even dumpster in bot lane now?
If the jungler doesn't exist nearly everyone except mage "supports". If the jungler exist low damage supports like Lulu, Janna and some melee engage supports (Leona and Alistar to some degree) you just poke down.
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when I first understood that I cannot continue playing BW, the game was getting the best of me and I could not keep up with it, so I moved to Dota, back then there was no Dota2 and I really liked the game and the genre, however, often I had to wait 40-50 minutes for a game to start, people leave, creator arranging teams etc., so when someone told me there is another dota called league of legends where you can press a play button and the game starts, I moved to Lol. Six months later Dota2 appeared, but back then I could not understand the design differences between the two games, for me it was the same game with different champs in it. When I finally started to understand what is Lol and what is Dota, I regretted my choice till forever, however, I just dont have the mental strength to make the switch, too old for new tricks, especially when I know my main trick so in dept, but I am a bit sad and will always be :-)
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On January 07 2019 21:30 Alaric wrote:
What does Sona even dumpster in bot lane now?
She doesn't really need to dumpster in lane because she's the hardest scaling support in the game. Just not really the meta for her. If she were to start a rampage in laning phases that would be extremely problematic considering how well she scales with the support items and tear.
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Yeah, Sona dumps on passive supports, I've heard Zven or someone say on stream she basically autowins against Morgana. But she's still squishiest champion in the game I think, Janna has 18 more health and Nami 7. So engage supports, plus a jungler who knows what to do, can set the lane so far behind she doesn't do anything but heal. Then you pick up all the dragons.
You get tear on Sona support? I mean, it's a really nice item on her, but I can't see a support getting it until the late game because she needs to buy other items first.
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dumpstering people in lane on sona sounds good until you realize you die anytime you get hit by a cc or a jungler comes
not building tear helps with that but even still it's hard not to int
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On January 07 2019 09:38 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2019 01:46 Slayer91 wrote:
how do you know the dota developers have so much more freedom to make changes? DOTA has been around for way way more than league of legends and league has more playable characters (according to a quick google)
"dumbed down and bland" is just your opinion that basically stems from "dota is better because it is harder"
and I'm guessing dota has no balance issues or op heroes?
also, being hard to make additions to the game doesn't mean it's badly designed. If the game is in a good state it makes sense it could be easy to fuck it up with changes. ok so its pretty obvious youve never played dota so ill explain. the amount of characters available is irrelevant. obviously league is going to have more when theyve made it their philosophy to shit out characters every few months for revenue generation. you have to look at the skill and item designs that both games have. its not a question of adjusting numbers, its about adding uniqueness and utility to the game with each new addition. the last 4 new heroes in dota have skills that are unique to the game and in general most skills in dota have utility that makes those characters serve a purpose in the game other than the fact that they do damage. now look at league. neeko has a buffed syndra q, buffed lux q and buffed amumu ult. the amount of champions that have skills that are not only seen in other champions, but are also so one dimensional that the damage numbers are what matters more. look at what determines meta champs. in jungle 99% of the time the best junglers are determined by sheer clear speed and 1v1 strength before looking at the utility they bring. i consider gragas ult to have fair utility by league standards, but you gut his clear a bit and he will never see the light of say regardless of how useful his kit is. we could go all day if we talk about itemisation also. pretty much only 2 things matter in league itemisation. the actual values of the stats it provides and the efficiency of assembly. you have some item effects here and there like redemption but compared to dota where 90% of items have an active skill aspect, league is childs play. thats what you call freedom in the development department. icefrog can continue to think up new ideas for skills and items that have never been seen before in dota and not worry that its going to be too strong. basically league is too one dimensional. Show nested quote +On January 07 2019 06:11 DarkCore wrote:i get enjoyment out of juking skillshots and blowing people up This is also why I could never get into Dota. When I played SC2, all I did was micro around with marines, and I get that craving by playing ADC in League. I will never see WW support if I play support, #thinkingcap... Though I have seen ADC Soraka this week yeah most of the games i lose in league is because im standing in front of the enemy trying to dodge skillshots and i get picked off, rather than me doing the sensible thing and trying to win the game lol
ok so dota is, in your opinion, better and more well designed because the heroes and items are more unique, which makes the game easier to balance (according to you) Also the pros are more knowledgeable presumably because game knowledge is more important in dota.
none of these things necessarily correlate to a game being fun to play and popular and deep. You're a walking contradiction here since you're spending all day talking about how badly designed league is compared to dota despite playing league instead of dota and posting in a league forum instead of a dota forum.
we get that you like the design of dota better and i'm not saying it's not, but i guess my main points are
1: you can't say league is badly designed just because it doesn't exactly have the same design philosophy as the game you like
2: who really gives a shit anyway? if you like the design of one game more go play that one
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A quick google search shows dota2 player base at 739K peak concurrent users last year. This compares to lol at 7500k peak concurrent users; over 10 times as much.
Dota may be easier to balance just because it doesn’t have anywhere near the same number of people trying to break the game and find imbalances. Like how early Magic had ridiculously imbalanced over powered cards but still had fun tournament metagames because the player base back then wasn’t big enough to find all the broken interactions.
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well if we want to be objective, there should be official criteria for a well designed game and according to them we can start arguing, otherwise, everything else is subjective
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i think we can all agree, whatever 'dota>league' guy's criteria are, they aren't sufficient to judge a game
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EPT
