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[Patch 8.24] Neeko Release General Discussion - Page 6

Forum Index > LoL General
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DarkCore
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany4194 Posts
January 02 2019 22:20 GMT
#101
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe.
Fixed a bug where LeBlanc could lose
Frolossus
Profile Joined February 2010
United States4779 Posts
January 03 2019 01:01 GMT
#102
On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe.

i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35142 Posts
January 03 2019 01:10 GMT
#103
DZK doesn't work at Riot anymore.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
January 03 2019 02:05 GMT
#104
On January 03 2019 10:01 Frolossus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe.

i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game

TBH I feel like its the whole champ design team + the PR team. The PR one being pretty inexcusable considering the company's revenue.
Freeeeeeedom
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
January 03 2019 02:20 GMT
#105
On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe.


If Zoe had to hit a Q to kill you she wouldn't be that bad
Carrilord has arrived.
DarkCore
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany4194 Posts
January 03 2019 15:45 GMT
#106
On January 03 2019 10:01 Frolossus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe.

i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game


I used to think this way too, but you have to consider that it's the champion design department, it's not just those two that are responsible for releases. Is there a design document/criteria? It's hard coming up with new champions because there are already so many, but I thought there would at least be a list of no-goes.
Fixed a bug where LeBlanc could lose
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 03 2019 18:28 GMT
#107
--- Nuked ---
AdsMoFro
Profile Joined January 2015
Japan4761 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-03 18:35:51
January 03 2019 18:34 GMT
#108
On January 04 2019 00:45 DarkCore wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2019 10:01 Frolossus wrote:
On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe.

i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game


I used to think this way too, but you have to consider that it's the champion design department, it's not just those two that are responsible for releases. Is there a design document/criteria? It's hard coming up with new champions because there are already so many, but I thought there would at least be a list of no-goes.


That's the thing, Riot is obviously enjoying pushing design boundaries. Akali with "TRUE STEALTH" breaks all other rules and pushes the game in a new direction. Previously we had abilities like Cass's reworked E and Poppy's E? that grounded. Likewise, Zoe with item pick ups, Neeko's whole invisibility and transformation trick that makes Shaco and LB look boring af, Kalista's infinite dashes that required her to be nerfed in a manner unlike any others by capping her damage at 90% etc. Seems like moving forward to keep the game fresh, they're required to no longer have a list of no-goes. The unfortunate thing being is that when you have champions that break boundaries in niche manners you really have to make them stupid in numbers to make them useful beyond their niche, otherwise, they're trash.
Que Sera Sera
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-04 01:19:19
January 04 2019 00:47 GMT
#109
On January 04 2019 03:34 AdsMoFro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2019 00:45 DarkCore wrote:
On January 03 2019 10:01 Frolossus wrote:
On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote:
Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe.

i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game


I used to think this way too, but you have to consider that it's the champion design department, it's not just those two that are responsible for releases. Is there a design document/criteria? It's hard coming up with new champions because there are already so many, but I thought there would at least be a list of no-goes.


That's the thing, Riot is obviously enjoying pushing design boundaries. Akali with "TRUE STEALTH" breaks all other rules and pushes the game in a new direction. Previously we had abilities like Cass's reworked E and Poppy's E? that grounded. Likewise, Zoe with item pick ups, Neeko's whole invisibility and transformation trick that makes Shaco and LB look boring af, Kalista's infinite dashes that required her to be nerfed in a manner unlike any others by capping her damage at 90% etc. Seems like moving forward to keep the game fresh, they're required to no longer have a list of no-goes. The unfortunate thing being is that when you have champions that break boundaries in niche manners you really have to make them stupid in numbers to make them useful beyond their niche, otherwise, they're trash.

Cass W and singed W both ground. Skarner and Malz also ground for an instant to prevent the targeted person from wasting flash and ult going off anyways IIRC.

And I would definitely agree with that. Having played when there were a lot less than 100 champs around, it was nice that it didn't seem like every champ got new shiny tools to play with that completely negate weaknesses. "Skill expression" doesn't mean that a champ is well designed IMO.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-04 02:08:11
January 04 2019 02:03 GMT
#110
I do think its semi-rational for the design/redesign team to only create stacked/op champions, because otherwise they just end up feeling like they wasted their effort. Look at Illoai, for instance. She's never really gotten a chance to shine on soloQ or in pro play. And there isn't really a contingent agitating for her because she never developed one. If you don't start off strong (and even if you do) a lot of time your creation will be disappeared. Vi has been dead for, what? 3 years? Diana? Wukong? Old champs that went from forgotten to played all had remakes, or at least mini reworks: Fiora, Galio, Viktor, Talon, etc. Its really not clear to me that any of them are really better designed than before, but they got reworked into temporary OPNess, and gained new constituencies that have helped keep them viable for a while.

A perfect example is Twisted Fate. Other than his mana costs being outdated and him being undertuned (ult timer is too long, pushing power has been powercreeped a bit) he's a perfectly modern champion. He's probably going to be reworked instead of buffed. There is no good reason for this, but instead of taking 10 mana off his Q (and not having it ramp up so much, no modern casters do) and making his ult 150 S at rank 1, they will rework him.
Freeeeeeedom
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8641 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-04 03:06:20
January 04 2019 03:05 GMT
#111
riots design and balance team (or whatever they call it) are terrible at their jobs, theres no doubt about that. but i dont think its fair that they shoulder 100% of the blame for their incompetence. the game is just poorly designed from the beginning and although it may seem like riot are pushing a lot of new boundaries with new champions, in reality theyre still trying to work within the original shit ass riot game design.

compare league to dota, where new heroes are fresh and quirky but dont have retarded numbers and arent either op or trash. if were talking about design boundaries, dota completely shits on league, yet they dont suffer from nearly as many balance issues.
just blame riot for making a shit game at the very beginning that has shackled the design team for 9 seasons. the design team could be doing better for sure, but you cant overlook the fact that what they had to work with at the beginning wasnt great anyway
M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4116 Posts
January 04 2019 09:53 GMT
#112
Honestly I doubt that RIot's goal is to balance the game and/or to design the champions towards balanced and competitive gameplay direction. Most of Riot's efforts are towards what will attract as many people as possible to play without giving up the game. So I suppose they have their research what makes people come and go and balanced game is probably not one of the reasons, at least not for the masses, hence, we get what we have now, with zillions of bugs, imbalances, retarded matchmaking, beautiful skins and cinematic, drastic changes all the time and new champs every other day
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
AdsMoFro
Profile Joined January 2015
Japan4761 Posts
January 04 2019 10:27 GMT
#113
C'mon the champ release schedule is pretty slow. They're still prioritising reworks as well so it's not like they've given up on updating some of the worst champions (although we know they prioritise more popular champs first rather than the actual worst champs: e.g Voli, udyr)
Que Sera Sera
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8641 Posts
January 04 2019 12:11 GMT
#114
the fact that the older champions need reworks to keep up with the newer ones is an indication that the game is poorly designed.
m2 is right about riots balancing policy in general though. its ironic that the biggest esport titles developers dont actually care about their game as an esport. its just a cash cow for them that cannot fail because they monopolise the korean market
AdsMoFro
Profile Joined January 2015
Japan4761 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-04 13:15:43
January 04 2019 13:12 GMT
#115
Is it really that surprising though? It's not a secret that those champs are entirely outdated and very few of them exist without being entire stat checks. The newer champs are pretty exciting to play after they're finally brought in line. In terms of Riot's balance policy it's clear that they're more concerned with cycling the meta rather than achieving a
"balance". Idk I've been playing the game for 5 years now and sure my interest has wavered here and there but I find myself pretty excited for S9. Seems like a successful plan.
Que Sera Sera
Jek
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark2771 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-04 13:27:11
January 04 2019 13:26 GMT
#116
On January 04 2019 21:11 evilfatsh1t wrote:
the fact that the older champions need reworks to keep up with the newer ones is an indication that the game is poorly designed.
m2 is right about riots balancing policy in general though. its ironic that the biggest esport titles developers dont actually care about their game as an esport. its just a cash cow for them that cannot fail because they monopolise the korean market

League undergo huge changes basically every pre-season, expecting every champion to never need updates when the game change this much is silly I cant think of a single champion that haven't at one point been relevant at pro/highest MMR given how large the champion pool is this is good design. How the game functioned in S1 to now is so far apart it might as well be considered two different MOBAs.

Aiming for Perfect Imbalance is a way more intersting than aiming for Perfect Balance.

Riot dont care about the game as an eSport? Why the hell do you think they keep working on keeping the game fast, evolving and entertaining to watch for the viewers. lol
It's Elo not ELO - Every statiscian playing League
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8641 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-05 00:14:38
January 04 2019 13:44 GMT
#117
On January 04 2019 22:26 Jek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2019 21:11 evilfatsh1t wrote:
the fact that the older champions need reworks to keep up with the newer ones is an indication that the game is poorly designed.
m2 is right about riots balancing policy in general though. its ironic that the biggest esport titles developers dont actually care about their game as an esport. its just a cash cow for them that cannot fail because they monopolise the korean market

League undergo huge changes basically every pre-season, expecting every champion to never need updates when the game change this much is silly I cant think of a single champion that haven't at one point been relevant at pro/highest MMR given how large the champion pool is this is good design. How the game functioned in S1 to now is so far apart it might as well be considered two different MOBAs.

Aiming for Perfect Imbalance is a way more intersting than aiming for Perfect Balance.

Riot dont care about the game as an eSport? Why the hell do you think they keep working on keeping the game fast, evolving and entertaining to watch for the viewers. lol

have you played dota ever?
there are almost as many heroes in dota and throughout the ENTIRE history of dota there are probably less than 5 heroes that have actually been reworked. some of the oldest heroes in dota are more or less the same as what they were since the beginning, and they all retain their niche/identity (whatever you want to call it) and viability in the pro scene as the meta changes.

i could literally write an essay on how riot does not have esports at the centre of their decision making but tbh ive already talked about this before also. without going into lengthy detail, if i were to attempt to sum it up in a couple sentences it would be this.
there are a number of stakeholders involved in league when it comes to the esports scene and not one of them would favour constant change and instability in the game (and the competitive scene by extension), over stability. riots "balancing" philosophy is the exact opposite of this, they create changes for the sake of change and force the game into instability. the fact that they have a set number of patches that they want to shit out regardless of whether the state of the game is good or not for the professionals is evidence of this. their priority is not to make league an outstanding esport; it is and always has been to make the game attractive to the masses.
DarkCore
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany4194 Posts
January 04 2019 21:11 GMT
#118
On January 04 2019 18:53 M2 wrote:
Honestly I doubt that RIot's goal is to balance the game and/or to design the champions towards balanced and competitive gameplay direction. Most of Riot's efforts are towards what will attract as many people as possible to play without giving up the game. So I suppose they have their research what makes people come and go and balanced game is probably not one of the reasons, at least not for the masses, hence, we get what we have now, with zillions of bugs, imbalances, retarded matchmaking, beautiful skins and cinematic, drastic changes all the time and new champs every other day


I've supported this belief since S4, game design is money first, balance second because it's a necessary evil. Although I don't quite get the bugs part, LoL is a lot less buggy than it was in the past, except Morde (hilarious they still haven't cleaned him up, don't like 1k people work at Riot?).

Aiming for Perfect Imbalance is a way more intersting than aiming for Perfect Balance


Riot has never reached perfect imbalance, or ever been in a place where I would consider it. This is another argument that has been brought up time and time again, and I don't buy it. The reason being that if the game is imbalanced, then it implies something is not good with the game. Sometimes we end up with League of Cleavers, other times we end up with the juggernaut patch. Right now jungle is wildly influential on the game, and DH Karthus is most likely super broken.
Fixed a bug where LeBlanc could lose
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
January 04 2019 23:27 GMT
#119
On January 05 2019 06:11 DarkCore wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2019 18:53 M2 wrote:
Honestly I doubt that RIot's goal is to balance the game and/or to design the champions towards balanced and competitive gameplay direction. Most of Riot's efforts are towards what will attract as many people as possible to play without giving up the game. So I suppose they have their research what makes people come and go and balanced game is probably not one of the reasons, at least not for the masses, hence, we get what we have now, with zillions of bugs, imbalances, retarded matchmaking, beautiful skins and cinematic, drastic changes all the time and new champs every other day


I've supported this belief since S4, game design is money first, balance second because it's a necessary evil. Although I don't quite get the bugs part, LoL is a lot less buggy than it was in the past, except Morde (hilarious they still haven't cleaned him up, don't like 1k people work at Riot?).

Show nested quote +
Aiming for Perfect Imbalance is a way more intersting than aiming for Perfect Balance


Riot has never reached perfect imbalance, or ever been in a place where I would consider it. This is another argument that has been brought up time and time again, and I don't buy it. The reason being that if the game is imbalanced, then it implies something is not good with the game. Sometimes we end up with League of Cleavers, other times we end up with the juggernaut patch. Right now jungle is wildly influential on the game, and DH Karthus is most likely super broken.



I agree, I don't think Riot's philosophy is close to balance or "imbalance" its "Homogeneous, but with a twist." That is why every good mid has waveclear, why Kai Sai is a Vayne on Ecstasy, there aren't really any profound "lategame" champions anymore, etc.
Freeeeeeedom
M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4116 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-05 15:03:16
January 05 2019 14:59 GMT
#120
Does anyone have the feeling that people who play this game are objectively very bad at it. I am talking only from my personal perspective, but at some point I was few seasons in diamond, putting like half of the effort I was putting in Broodwar in the past, I am also very old for gaming - 39, and diamond is supposed to be top 1.5-2%, with these amount of effort I will be top 30% maximum in starcraft or warcraft for example. Additionally, something that is 100% objective, even in diamond the supposed to be top 2% there are people who don't know what some champs do, items, runes, camps respawn times etc, people who do not know the basics of the game, its like playing broodwar and something is killing you from the fog of war but you have no idea what is siege tank and that it can do this. Maybe not the best example, but you cannot claim or even think of being good at something if you do not even know the basics. Do you think what I say makes sense?
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
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