EPT[Patch 8.24] Neeko Release General Discussion - Page 6
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote: Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe. i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game | ||
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Gahlo
United States35118 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On January 03 2019 10:01 Frolossus wrote: i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game TBH I feel like its the whole champ design team + the PR team. The PR one being pretty inexcusable considering the company's revenue. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On January 03 2019 07:20 DarkCore wrote: Many of the things Riot said over the years have shown to be pretty empty. Like when the reworked Nidalee because missing 9 spears but hitting one could win you the game was considered 'not fun', then released Zoe. If Zoe had to hit a Q to kill you she wouldn't be that bad | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On January 03 2019 10:01 Frolossus wrote: i mean its literally only danielzlein and certainlyT that have no clue what they are doing with the game I used to think this way too, but you have to consider that it's the champion design department, it's not just those two that are responsible for releases. Is there a design document/criteria? It's hard coming up with new champions because there are already so many, but I thought there would at least be a list of no-goes. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On January 04 2019 00:45 DarkCore wrote: I used to think this way too, but you have to consider that it's the champion design department, it's not just those two that are responsible for releases. Is there a design document/criteria? It's hard coming up with new champions because there are already so many, but I thought there would at least be a list of no-goes. That's the thing, Riot is obviously enjoying pushing design boundaries. Akali with "TRUE STEALTH" breaks all other rules and pushes the game in a new direction. Previously we had abilities like Cass's reworked E and Poppy's E? that grounded. Likewise, Zoe with item pick ups, Neeko's whole invisibility and transformation trick that makes Shaco and LB look boring af, Kalista's infinite dashes that required her to be nerfed in a manner unlike any others by capping her damage at 90% etc. Seems like moving forward to keep the game fresh, they're required to no longer have a list of no-goes. The unfortunate thing being is that when you have champions that break boundaries in niche manners you really have to make them stupid in numbers to make them useful beyond their niche, otherwise, they're trash. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On January 04 2019 03:34 AdsMoFro wrote: That's the thing, Riot is obviously enjoying pushing design boundaries. Akali with "TRUE STEALTH" breaks all other rules and pushes the game in a new direction. Previously we had abilities like Cass's reworked E and Poppy's E? that grounded. Likewise, Zoe with item pick ups, Neeko's whole invisibility and transformation trick that makes Shaco and LB look boring af, Kalista's infinite dashes that required her to be nerfed in a manner unlike any others by capping her damage at 90% etc. Seems like moving forward to keep the game fresh, they're required to no longer have a list of no-goes. The unfortunate thing being is that when you have champions that break boundaries in niche manners you really have to make them stupid in numbers to make them useful beyond their niche, otherwise, they're trash. Cass W and singed W both ground. Skarner and Malz also ground for an instant to prevent the targeted person from wasting flash and ult going off anyways IIRC. And I would definitely agree with that. Having played when there were a lot less than 100 champs around, it was nice that it didn't seem like every champ got new shiny tools to play with that completely negate weaknesses. "Skill expression" doesn't mean that a champ is well designed IMO. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
A perfect example is Twisted Fate. Other than his mana costs being outdated and him being undertuned (ult timer is too long, pushing power has been powercreeped a bit) he's a perfectly modern champion. He's probably going to be reworked instead of buffed. There is no good reason for this, but instead of taking 10 mana off his Q (and not having it ramp up so much, no modern casters do) and making his ult 150 S at rank 1, they will rework him. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
compare league to dota, where new heroes are fresh and quirky but dont have retarded numbers and arent either op or trash. if were talking about design boundaries, dota completely shits on league, yet they dont suffer from nearly as many balance issues. just blame riot for making a shit game at the very beginning that has shackled the design team for 9 seasons. the design team could be doing better for sure, but you cant overlook the fact that what they had to work with at the beginning wasnt great anyway | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4103 Posts
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
m2 is right about riots balancing policy in general though. its ironic that the biggest esport titles developers dont actually care about their game as an esport. its just a cash cow for them that cannot fail because they monopolise the korean market | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
"balance". Idk I've been playing the game for 5 years now and sure my interest has wavered here and there but I find myself pretty excited for S9. Seems like a successful plan. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On January 04 2019 21:11 evilfatsh1t wrote: the fact that the older champions need reworks to keep up with the newer ones is an indication that the game is poorly designed. m2 is right about riots balancing policy in general though. its ironic that the biggest esport titles developers dont actually care about their game as an esport. its just a cash cow for them that cannot fail because they monopolise the korean market League undergo huge changes basically every pre-season, expecting every champion to never need updates when the game change this much is silly I cant think of a single champion that haven't at one point been relevant at pro/highest MMR given how large the champion pool is this is good design. How the game functioned in S1 to now is so far apart it might as well be considered two different MOBAs. Aiming for Perfect Imbalance is a way more intersting than aiming for Perfect Balance. Riot dont care about the game as an eSport? Why the hell do you think they keep working on keeping the game fast, evolving and entertaining to watch for the viewers. lol | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
On January 04 2019 22:26 Jek wrote: League undergo huge changes basically every pre-season, expecting every champion to never need updates when the game change this much is silly I cant think of a single champion that haven't at one point been relevant at pro/highest MMR given how large the champion pool is this is good design. How the game functioned in S1 to now is so far apart it might as well be considered two different MOBAs. Aiming for Perfect Imbalance is a way more intersting than aiming for Perfect Balance. Riot dont care about the game as an eSport? Why the hell do you think they keep working on keeping the game fast, evolving and entertaining to watch for the viewers. lol have you played dota ever? there are almost as many heroes in dota and throughout the ENTIRE history of dota there are probably less than 5 heroes that have actually been reworked. some of the oldest heroes in dota are more or less the same as what they were since the beginning, and they all retain their niche/identity (whatever you want to call it) and viability in the pro scene as the meta changes. i could literally write an essay on how riot does not have esports at the centre of their decision making but tbh ive already talked about this before also. without going into lengthy detail, if i were to attempt to sum it up in a couple sentences it would be this. there are a number of stakeholders involved in league when it comes to the esports scene and not one of them would favour constant change and instability in the game (and the competitive scene by extension), over stability. riots "balancing" philosophy is the exact opposite of this, they create changes for the sake of change and force the game into instability. the fact that they have a set number of patches that they want to shit out regardless of whether the state of the game is good or not for the professionals is evidence of this. their priority is not to make league an outstanding esport; it is and always has been to make the game attractive to the masses. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On January 04 2019 18:53 M2 wrote: Honestly I doubt that RIot's goal is to balance the game and/or to design the champions towards balanced and competitive gameplay direction. Most of Riot's efforts are towards what will attract as many people as possible to play without giving up the game. So I suppose they have their research what makes people come and go and balanced game is probably not one of the reasons, at least not for the masses, hence, we get what we have now, with zillions of bugs, imbalances, retarded matchmaking, beautiful skins and cinematic, drastic changes all the time and new champs every other day I've supported this belief since S4, game design is money first, balance second because it's a necessary evil. Although I don't quite get the bugs part, LoL is a lot less buggy than it was in the past, except Morde (hilarious they still haven't cleaned him up, don't like 1k people work at Riot?). Aiming for Perfect Imbalance is a way more intersting than aiming for Perfect Balance Riot has never reached perfect imbalance, or ever been in a place where I would consider it. This is another argument that has been brought up time and time again, and I don't buy it. The reason being that if the game is imbalanced, then it implies something is not good with the game. Sometimes we end up with League of Cleavers, other times we end up with the juggernaut patch. Right now jungle is wildly influential on the game, and DH Karthus is most likely super broken. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On January 05 2019 06:11 DarkCore wrote: I've supported this belief since S4, game design is money first, balance second because it's a necessary evil. Although I don't quite get the bugs part, LoL is a lot less buggy than it was in the past, except Morde (hilarious they still haven't cleaned him up, don't like 1k people work at Riot?). Riot has never reached perfect imbalance, or ever been in a place where I would consider it. This is another argument that has been brought up time and time again, and I don't buy it. The reason being that if the game is imbalanced, then it implies something is not good with the game. Sometimes we end up with League of Cleavers, other times we end up with the juggernaut patch. Right now jungle is wildly influential on the game, and DH Karthus is most likely super broken. I agree, I don't think Riot's philosophy is close to balance or "imbalance" its "Homogeneous, but with a twist." That is why every good mid has waveclear, why Kai Sai is a Vayne on Ecstasy, there aren't really any profound "lategame" champions anymore, etc. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4103 Posts
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