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Yes, but at the same time BW has a lot less going on with it on a game mechanics level.
I don't have the best mechanics in the word because I'm not very dexterous and I find drilling to improve them mind numbingly boring, so when I get into a game where there's a desire to be good at it(usually some competitive aspect because of how my personality is) I make an effort to alleviate that by flat out knowing shit. However, with League there's so much shit to remember and it's changing all the time.
Before the Gragas rework in S4, how many non-Gragas players do you think knew Barrel Roll had an AS slow too?
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On January 06 2019 00:14 Gahlo wrote:
Yes, but at the same time BW has a lot less going on with it on a game mechanics level.
I don't have the best mechanics in the word because I'm not very dexterous and I find drilling to improve them mind numbingly boring, so when I get into a game where there's a desire to be good at it(usually some competitive aspect because of how my personality is) I make an effort to alleviate that by flat out knowing shit. However, with League there's so much shit to remember and it's changing all the time.
Before the Gragas rework in S4, how many non-Gragas players do you think knew Barrel Roll had an AS slow too?
I dont question or argue this, I am just saying that if you do not know the basics of something, you are objectively incapable of being good at it. League is more complex with more stuff in it, however, it does not excuse people for not learning them and being bad at it. Also its nothing wrong with people being bad in league, it was just an observation that I had
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Before the Gragas rework in S4, how many non-Gragas players do you think knew Barrel Roll had an AS slow too?
Not me that's for sure.
I agree, the lack of knowledge in this game is astonishing. I'm seeing people with 2k games stuck in gold/plat, and it shows in their games: no map vision/awareness, can't cs even if the opponent lets them, completely oblivious to obvious counters (Yasuo into Karma Cait, really???), and the most important one, learning not to feed. And I've seen the same shit in Diamond as well, getting to D5 doesn't really feel like an achievement.
Is it game design? Or are people just dumb? It's weird, usually if you do something repetitively you get better at it, but the return on investment for LoL seems to be pretty low, myself included.
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On January 06 2019 04:13 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +Before the Gragas rework in S4, how many non-Gragas players do you think knew Barrel Roll had an AS slow too? Not me that's for sure. I agree, the lack of knowledge in this game is astonishing. I'm seeing people with 2k games stuck in gold/plat, and it shows in their games: no map vision/awareness, can't cs even if the opponent lets them, completely oblivious to obvious counters (Yasuo into Karma Cait, really???), and the most important one, learning not to feed. And I've seen the same shit in Diamond as well, getting to D5 doesn't really feel like an achievement. Is it game design? Or are people just dumb? It's weird, usually if you do something repetitively you get better at it, but the return on investment for LoL seems to be pretty low, myself included.
Playing in high diamond/master games and watching my mid play on the side with no vision and where I'm not on, die and blame me like... How the fuck did you even get here? It's honestly because of the fact voice doesn't exist. Also, people in LoL seem so averse to taking any advice. Tell anyone to do anything in chat and they'll take it as that you told their mother to get cancer and die.
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On January 04 2019 12:05 evilfatsh1t wrote:
compare league to dota, where new heroes are fresh and quirky but dont have retarded numbers and arent either op or trash. if were talking about design boundaries, dota completely shits on league, yet they dont suffer from nearly as many balance issues.
I dunno, Grimstroke, Winter Wyvern, Earth Spirit, however-that-make-a-clone-dude-is-named all received very heavy number nerfs for multiple patches in a row before even being included in captain's mode, and even after.
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On January 06 2019 04:24 AdsMoFro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2019 04:13 DarkCore wrote:Before the Gragas rework in S4, how many non-Gragas players do you think knew Barrel Roll had an AS slow too? Not me that's for sure. I agree, the lack of knowledge in this game is astonishing. I'm seeing people with 2k games stuck in gold/plat, and it shows in their games: no map vision/awareness, can't cs even if the opponent lets them, completely oblivious to obvious counters (Yasuo into Karma Cait, really???), and the most important one, learning not to feed. And I've seen the same shit in Diamond as well, getting to D5 doesn't really feel like an achievement. Is it game design? Or are people just dumb? It's weird, usually if you do something repetitively you get better at it, but the return on investment for LoL seems to be pretty low, myself included. Playing in high diamond/master games and watching my mid play on the side with no vision and where I'm not on, die and blame me like... How the fuck did you even get here? It's honestly because of the fact voice doesn't exist. Also, people in LoL seem so averse to taking any advice. Tell anyone to do anything in chat and they'll take it as that you told their mother to get cancer and die.
Couldn't agree more, and its why I pretty much never play the game anymore. Its just not fun to be in a game with a bunch of people that have no clue what they're doing and refuse to listen to someone that does. I obviously don't make the right call all the time, but there's just obvious shit that grinds you down game after game when no one else will listen
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On January 06 2019 04:40 JimmiC wrote:
Perhaps that is because you start the advice with "listen asshole ...
Oh, you pg-13'd my advice 
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I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego.
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On January 05 2019 23:59 M2 wrote:
Does anyone have the feeling that people who play this game are objectively very bad at it. I am talking only from my personal perspective, but at some point I was few seasons in diamond, putting like half of the effort I was putting in Broodwar in the past, I am also very old for gaming - 39, and diamond is supposed to be top 1.5-2%, with these amount of effort I will be top 30% maximum in starcraft or warcraft for example. Additionally, something that is 100% objective, even in diamond the supposed to be top 2% there are people who don't know what some champs do, items, runes, camps respawn times etc, people who do not know the basics of the game, its like playing broodwar and something is killing you from the fog of war but you have no idea what is siege tank and that it can do this. Maybe not the best example, but you cannot claim or even think of being good at something if you do not even know the basics. Do you think what I say makes sense?
It makes sense but I agree and disagree (I sound like a politician now).
I think people can be good and/or bad at a lot of things in games like League and occasionally a weakness get exposed really hard making the player seem worse than they are comparable to their MMR I mean watch TF Blade's stream sometimes he completely obliterate his opponent making him look like a bronze scrub yet it's a challenger. Players that are bad at objectives run into a team with players that are good at objective play can get exposed, likewise weak laners vs strong laners, bad teamfighters vs good teamfighters etc adding autofill to the equation to skew it even more. I dont think it's until high diamond (hell probably even higher) you actually need to be strong at multiple facets of the game.
Take myself for instance I'm basically trash at anything but being carried, tracking the enemy jungler and calming my teammates down (guess that's why I main Janna lol) I am not good at actually playing the game yet I win often because I am good at something else. I'm the type of player that looks like a boosted animal from a mechanically point of view but manage to climb to D5. The only reason I can do fancy stuff on Janna (yes, she have a couple of combos that actually require practice) is because I have literally thousands of games on her.
The best example I can think of about a high rank "bad" player is Jayne in Overwatch. He is not a particular outstanding player but he is 4000+ just from being smart. As he said after last placements, "I'm not good at playing the game but I sure know how to play it" (it was something like that).
In regards to your BW vs League example in teamgames you can sort of "hide" your flaws, but in 1v1 games they can easily be exposed. If you take real life sports upsets happen much more frequently in football than in badminton solos where they basically never happen.
On January 06 2019 09:08 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego.
This is basically what I am trying to say.
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On January 05 2019 23:59 M2 wrote:
Does anyone have the feeling that people who play this game are objectively very bad at it. I am talking only from my personal perspective, but at some point I was few seasons in diamond, putting like half of the effort I was putting in Broodwar in the past, I am also very old for gaming - 39, and diamond is supposed to be top 1.5-2%, with these amount of effort I will be top 30% maximum in starcraft or warcraft for example. Additionally, something that is 100% objective, even in diamond the supposed to be top 2% there are people who don't know what some champs do, items, runes, camps respawn times etc, people who do not know the basics of the game, its like playing broodwar and something is killing you from the fog of war but you have no idea what is siege tank and that it can do this. Maybe not the best example, but you cannot claim or even think of being good at something if you do not even know the basics. Do you think what I say makes sense?
i first noticed it when i was starting to learn league and i watched pros streams. these "pros", (bjergsen, later peanut, pray, bang etc) were clueless to so many aspects of the game that didnt happen in their specific lane. getting rolled a different lane and then having to ask a teammate in the room "what do i skill on this guy" and "what item should i get right now" was shocking. that kind of shit is unheard of in dota. theyre obviously very good at their own lanes but still.
and i hate to be that guy that constantly shits on league and compares it with dota but unfortunately i cant help it. the reason we see people in higher elos still doing boosted shit and being clueless is because the game is designed in a way that if you play a champ with good numbers and you hit your skills more than your opponent, you will win. a good example of this is the fact that you can climb very high by using scripts. no decision making necessary, just dodge and hit. you cant climb in dota using scripts, not that i know any exist anysay.
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On January 06 2019 09:08 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego.
Or alternatively the mistakes you do notice about yourself aren't nearly as "game ending" as the things people are referring too. For example, I may not be the best cs'er (I'm a support main anyway but the point still stands), but me being up 10 cs instead of down 10 cs doesn't win the team a game when your teammates don't understand that sacrificing tier 2, tier 3, and an inhib to take baron isn't a good idea when you aren't in the position to take advantage of it. The concept that baron timer is significantly shorter than inhib timer is not difficult, and its things like that information (and the fact that your teammates find it toxic if you try to inform them) that grinds you down. There's something you can improve on yourself every single game you play, but some games are literally unwinnable because some rando on your team doesn't have a clue, and that grinds you down.
People are in the same MMR but have completely different skillsets, which sounds to me like what you're arguing (and I agree), you can fix YOUR mechanics with practice, but you can't fix someone elses brain. Trust me when I say I understand the value of reading into your mistakes, I went from copper (a league so fucking bad they got rid of it) to top diamond/low master MMR in SC2 largely off the back of learning from my mistakes.
EDIT: I should stress I make my fair share of game ending mistakes and by no means am trying to imply that I don't
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On January 06 2019 09:08 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego.
Nah, I know I'm trash but I can follow someone better than me. My ability in getting carried exceeds my ability carrying
>don't go looking for my vi game plz
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Getting carried is a skill in itself, it implies not feeding so you must be doing more right than the average player.
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On January 06 2019 13:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2019 09:08 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego. Or alternatively the mistakes you do notice about yourself aren't nearly as "game ending" as the things people are referring too. For example, I may not be the best cs'er (I'm a support main anyway but the point still stands), but me being up 10 cs instead of down 10 cs doesn't win the team a game when your teammates don't understand that sacrificing tier 2, tier 3, and an inhib to take baron isn't a good idea when you aren't in the position to take advantage of it. The concept that baron timer is significantly shorter than inhib timer is not difficult, and its things like that information (and the fact that your teammates find it toxic if you try to inform them) that grinds you down. There's something you can improve on yourself every single game you play, but some games are literally unwinnable because some rando on your team doesn't have a clue, and that grinds you down. People are in the same MMR but have completely different skillsets, which sounds to me like what you're arguing (and I agree), you can fix YOUR mechanics with practice, but you can't fix someone elses brain. Trust me when I say I understand the value of reading into your mistakes, I went from copper (a league so fucking bad they got rid of it) to top diamond/low master MMR in SC2 largely off the back of learning from my mistakes. EDIT: I should stress I make my fair share of game ending mistakes and by no means am trying to imply that I don't
Nothing is fixable, either you're good or you aren't, life is deterministic.
But serious for a second, those 20 cs earlygame differentials do actually matter in some games, the same way baron decision-making matters in some.
I highly doubt your view of the baron situation is objectively correct. Your teammates probably had non-horrible plans as well, it's just the combination of all 5 ideas that led to the bad end result.
I've also yet to find a single person who has been unfairly called out for being a dick when giving "advice" to teammates without extensive prior chat. Chances are you were being a dick.
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On January 06 2019 13:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2019 09:08 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the lack of self awareness of people here. You complain about how bad people of approximately the same MMR as you are. Either they have qualities you don't appreciate, are having a bad game, or you're over reading mistakes of your teammates and not looking at your own.
There's a reason they are the same MMR as you. It's because you're trash too, you just don't notice because you look at your teammates critically to justify your own ego. Or alternatively the mistakes you do notice about yourself aren't nearly as "game ending" as the things people are referring too. For example, I may not be the best cs'er (I'm a support main anyway but the point still stands), but me being up 10 cs instead of down 10 cs doesn't win the team a game when your teammates don't understand that sacrificing tier 2, tier 3, and an inhib to take baron isn't a good idea when you aren't in the position to take advantage of it. The concept that baron timer is significantly shorter than inhib timer is not difficult, and its things like that information (and the fact that your teammates find it toxic if you try to inform them) that grinds you down. There's something you can improve on yourself every single game you play, but some games are literally unwinnable because some rando on your team doesn't have a clue, and that grinds you down. People are in the same MMR but have completely different skillsets, which sounds to me like what you're arguing (and I agree), you can fix YOUR mechanics with practice, but you can't fix someone elses brain. Trust me when I say I understand the value of reading into your mistakes, I went from copper (a league so fucking bad they got rid of it) to top diamond/low master MMR in SC2 largely off the back of learning from my mistakes. EDIT: I should stress I make my fair share of game ending mistakes and by no means am trying to imply that I don't
well you're basically saying that the things you're bad at don't lose the game instantly, but they can setup a situation to allow a single mistake to lose the game instantly. Situations where someone gets caught you lose baron and eventually lose the game typically happen in relatively even games, if you snowball your game off small leads you can literally int at the enemy base like 3 times and they won't be able to do much anyway.
Also you said you make game ending mistakes too, but less often. Well guess what there are 4 teamates so there are 4 different people every game who can each make a game losing mistake so no shit its them more often than you, especially since you're a support main who typically focus more on map and objective play rather than other roles who tend to focus a bit more on getting strong and snowballing off their own power
On January 06 2019 11:09 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2019 23:59 M2 wrote:
Does anyone have the feeling that people who play this game are objectively very bad at it. I am talking only from my personal perspective, but at some point I was few seasons in diamond, putting like half of the effort I was putting in Broodwar in the past, I am also very old for gaming - 39, and diamond is supposed to be top 1.5-2%, with these amount of effort I will be top 30% maximum in starcraft or warcraft for example. Additionally, something that is 100% objective, even in diamond the supposed to be top 2% there are people who don't know what some champs do, items, runes, camps respawn times etc, people who do not know the basics of the game, its like playing broodwar and something is killing you from the fog of war but you have no idea what is siege tank and that it can do this. Maybe not the best example, but you cannot claim or even think of being good at something if you do not even know the basics. Do you think what I say makes sense? i first noticed it when i was starting to learn league and i watched pros streams. these "pros", (bjergsen, later peanut, pray, bang etc) were clueless to so many aspects of the game that didnt happen in their specific lane. getting rolled a different lane and then having to ask a teammate in the room "what do i skill on this guy" and "what item should i get right now" was shocking. that kind of shit is unheard of in dota. theyre obviously very good at their own lanes but still. and i hate to be that guy that constantly shits on league and compares it with dota but unfortunately i cant help it. the reason we see people in higher elos still doing boosted shit and being clueless is because the game is designed in a way that if you play a champ with good numbers and you hit your skills more than your opponent, you will win. a good example of this is the fact that you can climb very high by using scripts. no decision making necessary, just dodge and hit. you cant climb in dota using scripts, not that i know any exist anysay.
I see people in the top of the ladder dota having like 50 APM, I hate to be the guy who compares different games for absolutely no reason, but that shit is unheard of in BW. They only get away with it in dota because the game is designed in such a way that if you use your 4 skills at the correct time you can win the game without having to press many buttons and only minimal amounts of clicking.
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i can see youre either a troll or lack the required intelligence to have a conversation with.
if you cannot see why a pro dota/bw comparison is not even close to being similar to pro dota/lol then i will say no more
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On January 06 2019 23:38 evilfatsh1t wrote:
i can see youre either a troll or lack the required intelligence to have a conversation with.
if you cannot see why a pro dota/bw comparison is not even close to being similar to pro dota/lol then i will say no more
All you're doing is zooming in on a genre.
DoTA requires more skill than League and both are mobas therefore dota is better.
DoTA and BW are both video games and BW requires more skill so therefore BW is better.
At the end of the day the objective of games are not to make them as difficult to play as possible, but to make them interesting and fun, both to play and to watch.
Just because DoTA is harder to play doesn't make it better designed. League is one of the most popular games in the world and is very widely both watched and played, to me that means it's extremely well designed. Not to say dota isn't.
I don't even understand why you feel the need to compare league and dota in every post? If you think dota is better go and play dota and stop posting on a league forum.
I mean I personally find league to be a garbage spectator sport, so I watch pro BW games instead, I don't go around complaining about how terrible pro league is to watch, I just watch the BW vods.
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im not saying dota is better designed because its harder to play. im saying the game is designed better (from a purely balancing and champion design standpoint) because it allows the developers more freedom to make changes without ruining the balance of the game.
if your game is dumbed down and bland from the get go then you are shackled by those limits forever. anything you introduce later on that is a bit too strong is op and anytime you try something fresh it becomes too complicated (stuff like akali neeko). look at how many champions in lol have similar skills. there are only so many skills riot can come up with that are genuinely unique and within the bounds of what they originally created, before they have to start making new skills that will be considered op or risk pretty much changing the colour scheme of a current skill and reusing it.
thats what you call bad game design. we could go further into this and talk about item complexity, macro elements, skillsets required by pros in terms of knowledge and decision making etc but its beside the point.
and i played dota for 9 years before i wanted a change of scenery. despite all of leagues flaws with its shit design and riot games being a joke of a game developer (from a esports fans perspective), i get enjoyment out of juking skillshots and blowing people up. that doesnt mean i think league is better, nor does it mean im not allowed to play league and have to stick to what ive played for almost 10 years.
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how do you know the dota developers have so much more freedom to make changes? DOTA has been around for way way more than league of legends and league has more playable characters (according to a quick google)
"dumbed down and bland" is just your opinion that basically stems from "dota is better because it is harder"
and I'm guessing dota has no balance issues or op heroes?
also, being hard to make additions to the game doesn't mean it's badly designed. If the game is in a good state it makes sense it could be easy to fuck it up with changes.
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EPT
