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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
lol The best support got items and got ahead and won the game in s2/3. in s7, the best support is the one that locked in lulu/janna and had the better adc. no one wants to play a role where their skill is pretty irrelevant, unless they arent skillful or just want to be carried. there is a reason most of the top supports on ladder are janna or lulu or soraka one tricks. and its not because they are the most skillful players on the ladder. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
However, Riot says they are looking to buff her and simultaneously the new rune/mastery system is a huge buff to eve, a lot of stuff she likes there so I think she will come back in a big way, even if it's just solo q. No comment on the galio thing until I see it in action, but looks like kassadin 2.0 in terms of being every mid mage main's new nightmare | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On October 25 2017 23:08 GrandInquisitor wrote: I'm not talking about just getting one shot. I'm talking about her being literally eight levels lower, half an hour into the game, and still having done literally nothing the entire game except place wards. That is why no one wanted to play support for years. I dunno, once there are wards in the river the enemy lane had better had gotten ahead already or I'd bully them into oblivion with Leona, Lulu or other aggressive supports, and once we've killed them 5 them you can bet your ass I'll never be more than 3 levels behind an enemy solo laner even if he's fed. You're talking about people not leveraging shit when they're relying on a baseline instead of actually making plays and using what's available to them. That's exactly the same as, say, people whining that they don't have a special power when playing mafia. That doesn't mean you can't do shit. And you get ahead by using what's available better than the other guy—buying 500 wards and no sightstone was never the optimal play, so just shit on whoever played like this at that time. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Fildun
Netherlands4122 Posts
On October 25 2017 23:18 GrandInquisitor wrote: Bad Lulus today continue to get punished. Much less than they used to. Absolute trash Lulus still get equally dumpstered, but the difference between good and bad ones has much less impact on the game than in S2/S3. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On October 26 2017 01:06 Alaric wrote: I dunno, once there are wards in the river the enemy lane had better had gotten ahead already or I'd bully them into oblivion with Leona, Lulu or other aggressive supports, and once we've killed them 5 them you can bet your ass I'll never be more than 3 levels behind an enemy solo laner even if he's fed. You're talking about people not leveraging shit when they're relying on a baseline instead of actually making plays and using what's available to them. That's exactly the same as, say, people whining that they don't have a special power when playing mafia. That doesn't mean you can't do shit. And you get ahead by using what's available better than the other guy—buying 500 wards and no sightstone was never the optimal play, so just shit on whoever played like this at that time. That was exactly the problem with S2/S3, teams that were ahead had a million wards plus map pressure, and slowly choked the enemy team out. It made for some very boring games, that was why teams like GMB and WE were so much fun to watch, rather than CLG EU causing their opponents to die of old age. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Or they turtled for 25 minutes after getting behind early with Anivia's stupid insta-clear + wall until Froggen was 6-slotted and the gold deficit on the other carries was negligible (being behind 2k doesn't matter when teams have 60+k total). | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
I for one am glad that SS3 is long in the past, although I did enjoy the holy trinity of ADC, miss old Graves... | ||
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
On October 25 2017 19:21 Numy wrote: I loved the bitch support just because I could take over the whole map vision and bitch slap the enemy support vision. I doubt Riot would ever have shop cooldown items. They may not have the tech to do it or it'll take a hell of a long time to sort out. Reading that Rioter saying they dislike sightstone being item supports need every game was just disheaterning. Vision is one of the most rewarding aspects of it all. Seeing that map light up, tracking where enemy is, allowing your team to do all kinds of aggressive plays safely. That's all the great aspects of being a support. Just buying items you can do at any other role. Supports and to some extent Junglers are ones that work with the intangibles. Why change that? Why is that not good enough? In dota1 I was mainly a Dazzle player for the team, if I was able to get 1 bracers for myself in a given game it was my lucky day, this post explains very well what I like about support role in team games hopefully they don't change the sightstone, I think it has been a good addition to league | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On October 26 2017 01:45 Fildun wrote: Much less than they used to. Absolute trash Lulus still get equally dumpstered, but the difference between good and bad has much less impact on the game than on S2/S3. exactly. and slight differences in supports are practically meaningless now. where they were abusable in S2/S3. Which is part of the reason it sucked for people who dont play support to get the role, as it was much more abusable if you were a bit worse then say mid lane or something where you can just pick into the matchup better or pick someone who can wave clear safely and just wait for the jungler to make your plays for you. A support doesnt have that luxury in S2/S3. you dont get to wait for coin ardent to carry you out of your lane you are worse in than your opponent. if you are a little worse at trading, you will lose lane, and if you lose lane you will end up poor, and then if you can't scrap back in with good plays, you will lose the game. so you had to do all those things. and if there is a skill that league of legends players have lacked and still lack. its how to play from behind, and how to close out games. and both those skills used to be incredibly important on support. and now they are more shifted onto ADC and the support essentially could be a bot script and you wouldnt lose anything. there was the duo in korea lately that abused twitch/janna to challenger and were accused of support botting for exactly that reason. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
So to boil down what you're trying to say: - There was more "skill" differential between Supports in S2/S3 because better Support players could create an edge in regards to vision (e.g. 8 wards vs 4 wards) - Supports in S7 are all homogenized and it's harder to separate good from the bad if they all end up getting 4 items by end game I'll agree with you that it's much harder to identify an amazing Support player, especially in the current Censer meta at Worlds. Aggressive, play making supports is typically how people pick out a great Support from a sea of decent supports and the passive Support champions that use Censer aren't conducive of showcasing strength from the Support position. That said, there was so much wrong in the S2/S3 Support role, despite having more drastic skill disparities. Literal ward bots are not fun to watch and even less fun to play. The current S7 Worlds meta might be a little doldrums but there's no way I'd prefer to play or watch Support from a S2/S3 patch again. Lastly, that Twitch/Janna comment seems entirely nonsensical. Two Challenger players duo queuing together and smashing bot lanes back to Challenger is hardly indicative of anything. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Add to that the fact that you were 100% reliant on your team to do something about your vision, and your literal one task in the game a) took no skill b) was completely useless except insofar as it allowed your teammates to make plays c) gave you no agency whatsoever. Instead, support has become a more skill-focused role now, because you actually have to do things other than spam wards. Put it this way. Imagine if we removed all the vision from the game, made League a 6v6 game, and assigned a team's entire vision responsibilities all onto that one extra player, who had literally nothing to do the entire game except ward everywhere. One, who the fuck would queue up for this role, and two, if you had to carry a useless sack of shit, you would 100% stick him into that role every single game. Likewise, you wanna talk about playing from behind? It was literally impossible in S2-S3 to win comebacks except for the "waveclear for 60 minutes" comps. When the winning team has perfect vision of you, there's nothing you can do in response. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4122 Posts
Edit: K, I'll dive into it. On October 26 2017 04:16 GrandInquisitor wrote: I feel like PX's arguments are all backwards. Warding is not some measure of profound skill. There is no such thing as an MLG Warding Montage, because there is no skill involved in dropping wards everywhere. You are limited only by how much money you have and how much of a bitch you were willing to be. Vision control is definitely a skill, although perhaps it's less pronounced right now than back then. In pro play vision has always been a team job, especially in the earlygame. In S2-S3 every pro player bought wards before 10 minutes, and in the current season everybody buys pinks as well. However, the baseline for vision control is a lot higher now than it was back then, and the relatively large differences between players in terms of vision control skill back then were magnified by the role of supports. I agree that there is no skill involved in just spamming one button, but luckily that's not what actually happened. Deciding where to ward, when to ward, when it was safe etc was definitely something that certain players did better than others, which directly led to gold leads and won games. Add to that the fact that you were 100% reliant on your team to do something about your vision, and your literal one task in the game a) took no skill b) was completely useless except insofar as it allowed your teammates to make plays c) gave you no agency whatsoever. Instead, support has become a more skill-focused role now, because you actually have to do things other than spam wards. Yes, it's a team game, who'd have thought you required your team to do stuff, especially around stuff like vision, which was a team job anyway. Still, you had pings and if you were playing things like Ali or Blitz you could definitely set your team up for victory. For your point b, are you literally saying "it was useless except it wasn't"? And yes, now you have to spam E on your ADC instead of whatever your ward hotkey was on the ground. Oh wait, they already had to spam E back then as well. Or spam W if you were playing Nunu. Engage supports worked roughly the same way so there's not a whole lot of change there either. Not sure what you mean here. Put it this way. Imagine if we removed all the vision from the game, made League a 6v6 game, and assigned a team's entire vision responsibilities all onto that one extra player, who had literally nothing to do the entire game except ward everywhere. One, who the fuck would queue up for this role, and two, if you had to carry a useless sack of shit, you would 100% stick him into that role every single game. This is kinda what's already happening, except you have to change "6v6" to "5v5". In soloq trinkets exist, and in pro play people are pretty good at vision control as a team, but there's a reason why most people who get boosted play support during the whole getting boosted part. Likewise, you wanna talk about playing from behind? It was literally impossible in S2-S3 to win comebacks except for the "waveclear for 60 minutes" comps. When the winning team has perfect vision of you, there's nothing you can do in response. Not sure how this is any different today, in terms of big gold leads. Even back then, if team A has a 3k gold lead but team B has better scaling, they still came back a decent amount of the time. Of course I don't have the exact stats, but I don't believe this changed too much, especially with the new baron being a lot stronger in this aspect. People were so trash at the game back then compared to now that I don't think we can really compare this too well though. The top pros have become a lot better at knowing how to win games. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Am I just the only one that gets super happy when I'm playing and see a lit up map by the support aggressively warding? It's freaking sexy especially as a jungler. edit: Actually thought popped up. I wonder if supports were the most healthy when rushing sightstone or mobi boots is the best. Both options provide no real raw power but instead intangible benefits that give supports the ability to impact the game showing off their skill. Are items like ardent just fundamentally flawed? | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
So I strongly disagree that warding is a measure of skill. Not dying while warding? I'll give you that. I'll even grant you that warding in the modern game is more challenging than it used to be, because it's a team effort and each team member is limited to 3 wards + 1 pink. But I will stand by the argument that warding is a chore, not a skill, and it is one of the easiest things in the game to do. So by extension, the period of the game where one role had literally no responsibilities aside from warding was one of the worst-designed periods of the game, because it is neither fun nor skill-expressive to have literally your entire gameplay be boiled down to a ministerial task. On October 26 2017 04:26 Fildun wrote: GI you realize literally everything you just posted can be applied to D5 Janna mains. Edit: K, I'll dive into it. Vision control is definitely a skill, although perhaps it's less pronounced right now than back then. In pro play vision has always been a team job, especially in the earlygame. In S2-S3 every pro player bought wards before 10 minutes, and in the current season everybody buys pinks as well. However, the baseline for vision control is a lot higher now than it was back then, and the relatively large differences between players in terms of vision control skill back then were magnified by the role of supports. I agree that there is no skill involved in just spamming one button, but luckily that's not what actually happened. Deciding where to ward, when to ward, when it was safe etc was definitely something that certain players did better than others, which directly led to gold leads and won games. Yes, it's a team game, who'd have thought you required your team to do stuff, especially around stuff like vision, which was a team job anyway. Still, you had pings and if you were playing things like Ali or Blitz you could definitely set your team up for victory. For your point b, are you literally saying "it was useless except it wasn't"? And yes, now you have to spam E on your ADC instead of whatever your ward hotkey was on the ground. Oh wait, they already had to spam E back then as well. Or spam W if you were playing Nunu. Engage supports worked roughly the same way so there's not a whole lot of change there either. Not sure what you mean here. This is kinda what's already happening, except you have to change "6v6" to "5v5". In soloq trinkets exist, and in pro play people are pretty good at vision control as a team, but there's a reason why most people who get boosted play support during the whole getting boosted part. Not sure how this is any different today, in terms of big gold leads. Even back then, if team A has a 3k gold lead but team B has better scaling, they still came back a decent amount of the time. Of course I don't have the exact stats, but I don't believe this changed too much, especially with the new baron being a lot stronger in this aspect. People were so trash at the game back then compared to now that I don't think we can really compare this too well though. The top pros have become a lot better at knowing how to win games. I think you and I agree more than you think. Support remains the easiest role to get carried. But my point was that PX was trying to claim that this was somehow different in S2-S3, because wardbotting was somehow a profound measure of personal skill. When in reality it just made support even more bitch-mode than it is now, turning basically the entire role into the duo D5 Janna. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
In addition, they made those changes simultaneously with increasing passive gold generation which would have made them richer even with the old warding system. I don't think that currently they are striking the correct balance between enjoyable soloQ (which I disagree with PX on) and high level vision plays (in pro play, which feels increasingly RNG with results). I'd like if they increased the # of charges and # of wards one can place on sighstone (you can level gate it with a purchase upgrade like they do with the trinkets). There is simply too little vision in pro play once laners start getting maxed out on items, and it means games stall into teamfights that end up being either Comp wins or RNG (I think everyone knows I hate smite steals, at the very least they should make that like Rift Herald where you have to get the kill & stand on a thing for a significant amount of time). | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Warding is not some measure of profound skill. There is no such thing as an MLG Warding Montage, because there is no skill involved in dropping wards everywhere. You are limited only by how much money you have and how much of a bitch you were willing to be. Timing and placement are very important things. There's no such thing as "dropping wards everywhere", unless you want to squander every last bit of gold you get (and then whine about being unable to afford more than boots1). Knowing how many wards to use, when, where, and especially when you can afford not to ward (in general or at specific places) and save gold for items are important skills. Some very simple things: - knowing usual gank timings depending on routes, especially in lower leagues (my Elo was never above Plat III and until toward the last third of S3 was only high Gold) where people use cookie-cutter builds and paths. Not needing to ward until after these timing if you could control the wave, or convince your laner to play more defensively. On the contrary, making sure to put a ward there and still playing forward to bait him could allow your solo lanes to feel safer if the jungler does come and you make him hope for an opportunity (that super aggressive Xin top? Your 75 gold make sure he doesn't give up 600 for fb+assist if you see the jungler, or ping his river otherwise). - people said dragon was super influential. Against a Fiddlestick, WW, Pantheon or other good solo dragon champ, knowing the spots and timings to keep drake lit as well as at least one entrance so you don't use an additional ward made sure you wouldn't get cheesed, or could ambush him. - warding for mid. A support with no presence, items or not, wouldn't be able to create windows for their laner to safely 1v2. And mid used to expect jungle/support to ward both sides for them (hence my dumping my gold lead into wards giving me an edge at the time), so knowing how to manipulate the wave and the gank timings and likeliness of a jungler being on the other side would let you walk up to mid and ward it (even gank if on an initiator and bot is safe even if they see you're elsewhere, not just hiding in a bush) then come back without getting your laner zoned or killed. You expect people to be ward bitches and poor as heck because you believe supporting was all about being a ward bitch and lighting up the map. Ideally you'd get total vision, sure. But being a good support was about getting as close to total vision as possible in terms of information while cutting as many corners as possible to maximise lane presence, gold and experience. A mediocre support would spam wards as a way to cover their inability to infer information and act on it, and be poor as result, while a better one would dump less resources and have more items. A bad support would just spam wards because he's been thought that's what he's supposed to do (and frankly, that's exactly what you're exhibiting here). And I haven't even mentioned lane presence, aggressiveness, how to play around the opponent's vision, ward timings, and all these thing connected to vision and warding too. Scarcity is a thing and it creates tension—another word Riot loves to spew in regard to their kits but that doesn't have much value (especially when they remove point'n'click abilities all the time and thus remove one of their biggest points of tension). | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 26 2017 04:27 Numy wrote: edit: Actually thought popped up. I wonder if supports were the most healthy when rushing sightstone or mobi boots is the best. Both options provide no real raw power but instead intangible benefits that give supports the ability to impact the game showing off their skill. Are items like ardent just fundamentally flawed? Ardent is not inherently flawed. It was just overtuned. The ideal selection of support items would be items that give permanent passive buffs to your teammate, and stronger one-shot effects that require good timing/execution. Frozen Heart would be an example of the former, and Mikael's an example of the latter. Ardent is fine as an example of the former - but it was just way too ridiculously strong because it was basically a permanent passive buff, which is why I could never believe why no one built the damn thing for the 10+months it was hidden OP. | ||
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