Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
They should buff his tanky stats late if they want to help at that part. Give turtle a shield that scales with your own hp. Otherwise just make his early game better because that's where he's better suited to be good.
On October 25 2017 04:22 DarkCore wrote: RIP Ardent, you will not be missed. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those stat nerfs on Sej pretty huge too?
It will definitely be painful. 5 armor is no joke in the jungle.
On October 25 2017 04:48 Ansibled wrote: I think ardent will still have a place, just not in every single game.
I'm just glad that I won't feel compelled to rush it every game.
Since when was Rammus ever intended to be good against "physical damage" rather than "auto-attackers" (due to the damage rebound)? I've never seen them state that anywhere. Oh well, gotta get the narrative going.
to shift some of his power out of lane and into teamfights
Now where else have I seen that... oh right, a bunch of changes for a very long time, and pretty much never the reverse except for scaling AP mids that were too weak in lane.
yea he's not, thats supposed to be malphite and rammus is anti AA'er but they just make stuff up. They continue their assault on tanks with rammus and galio, making them super niche to the point where they can only exist as overpowered in a game or underpowered. How about we let people's skills do the talking instead of an inherent huge advantage just because you picked x champ vs y comp? It's a pretty lame design philosophy.
Jungle camps are all worth the same creep score. One consistent issue in judging the impact of a jungler v. jungler match-up is that creep score can mean vastly different things. This is especially true if one champion specializes in single target camps while the other is an AoE monster. Now each camp in its entirety will grant 4 creep score, which generally matches the camps’ value and should provide for easier comparison of a jungler to their direct opponent.
On October 25 2017 13:01 Fildun wrote: What is their point? "This makes it easier to compare junglers" Who's comparing what and when and why?
with emotes and now this. Riots bringing toxic back, lets go. easier to flame your jungler now. no longer just for not ganking. clearly the main reason.
but for real adding a "large monsters" count to the scoreboard accomplishes literally the same thing, without screwing up tracking or muddying the waters for laners who clear a camp occasionally.
It indirectly increases fog of war, thus decreasing the stratification of skill related to vision at high levels of play. This has been a major theme of most of their vision changes over the last few offseasons.
I definitely miss S3 Support. because the good games you feel so much better than the other team. but now im kind of like, just the person that sits around and watches. I feel like a WoW Pet.
So now i play Urgot support to feel alive again. lol
I'd be interested to see what a teamwise cooldown on vision wards would do to the game. like obs wards/smoke in Dota.
With how little you should be dying in league, i suspect it'd just make people play more safe rather than try to make plays.
I loved the bitch support just because I could take over the whole map vision and bitch slap the enemy support vision. I doubt Riot would ever have shop cooldown items. They may not have the tech to do it or it'll take a hell of a long time to sort out.
Reading that Rioter saying they dislike sightstone being item supports need every game was just disheaterning. Vision is one of the most rewarding aspects of it all. Seeing that map light up, tracking where enemy is, allowing your team to do all kinds of aggressive plays safely. That's all the great aspects of being a support. Just buying items you can do at any other role. Supports and to some extent Junglers are ones that work with the intangibles. Why change that? Why is that not good enough?
the best part about S3 and S2 support was you could totally shut down the enemy team by knowing ward timings and by shutting down dives by assassins or engages by tanks. It didnt matter if their zed was > your Ahri if you could hook them out of zed ult every fight and shut down their burst. or the roams being warded out or whatever. All really strong skills that made good supports rich and bad supports struggling to scrap together enough for wards.
right now how do you tell the difference between a good support and a great one in meta?
Yo half the supports in the game right now weren't even around in S2/3, you guys are really making stuff up. And playing support felt terrible, you were a walking ward, and spent all your gold on pinks. Only thing I miss is Philo and HoG, never forget stacking those on Amumu jungle to get ahead. And Shurelyas, that item was basically a better Glory.
On October 25 2017 19:49 DarkCore wrote: Yo half the supports in the game right now weren't even around in S2/3, you guys are really making stuff up. And playing support felt terrible, you were a walking ward, and spent all your gold on pinks. Only thing I miss is Philo and HoG, never forget stacking those on Amumu jungle to get ahead. And Shurelyas, that item was basically a better Glory.
It maybe felt shitty for non support mains, and bad supports.
but it was a chance to totally outplay the other team for the ones who spent time to learn it. Its far worse to play support in censor meta than back then for those interested in stretching their skill. no skill differentiation past a point now at least not impactful ones, you gotta bail out of censor meta to show how good you are, and then you are just...hurting your team unless you are super going off.
but if you are filling support i suppose its nice knowing you just need a keyboard to mash and a list of items to buy.
Hell that was one of the complaints from supports at worlds about the meta, that they were struggling to differentiate themselves from their peers.
Not sure if I agree with "more vision means more aggression in solo Q". Most players have terrible map awareness, and usually back off only if they can literally see the incoming gank. One could argue that having deep vision allows you to tower dive safely, but I think tower dives are much rarer than overextended laners. Darkness should make killing them easier, which would be fine in solo q, but it would ruin the competitive play so I'd rather keep the vision easily available.
I was 2 kills ahead as Viktor but still around the same gold as the enemy laner because I lit up the area around mid so hard on both sides. Didn't matter, I had exp advantage and could roam freely to get more gold elsewhere, or gave our jungle free solo dragons with all the vision.
On October 25 2017 20:39 Sent. wrote: Not sure if I agree with "more vision means more aggression in solo Q". Most players have terrible map awareness, and usually back off only if they can literally see the incoming gank. One could argue that having deep vision allows you to tower dive safely, but I think tower dives are much rarer than overextended laners. Darkness should make killing them easier, which would be fine in solo q, but it would ruin the competitive play so I'd rather keep the vision easily available.
The point is you ward up enemy jungle -> see where opponents are -> either kill them, predict where they'll go next and set a trap or GO IN HARD on the other side of the map knowing that you wont get rekt by late jungle intervention. I can still sometimes do that with double yellow ward but I do miss being able to just buy 2-3 wards every bluepill.
Yo half the supports in the game right now weren't even around in S2/3, you guys are really making stuff up. And playing support felt terrible, you were a walking ward, and spent all your gold on pinks. Only thing I miss is Philo and HoG, never forget stacking those on Amumu jungle to get ahead. And Shurelyas, that item was basically a better Glory.
I meant like how we can't deselect hero to control multiple. Engine was never designed for that. A shared shop may just be something that was never designed for and trying to do it now would be a big undertaking.
I like(d) playing pos 5 support in dota. So not really making stuff up. Running around with boots and wards is fine as long as I brought something else to the game.
I vaguely remember us talking about Riot's balance team the other day. I concede. They are fucking retarded. Also love how Eve being shit was called by basically everyone. Turns out when you design a kit solely around the concept of "opponent must be able to counter everything" the hero turns out to feel shit and play shit. Basically put themselves into a hole of either redesigning a redesign or overtuning numbers so she becomes a huge pubstomper at lower levels while being only alright higher up.
For eve, if they want her to be able to get ahead on her own, they could just make you able to recast W on a target to pop it, but it goes on twice the CD if you do. She'd still have the same mediocre numbers and good AP ratios, but she doesnt just lose to walking backward. lol
But i looked at the galio changes and all they make me think is, what was the damn point of the rework. if he's going back to being an AP mage.
Also support champs in S2/3 were so much stronger than they are now. Thresh is still playable but is probably half as strong as he used to be. Sona is weaker, Zyra does so much less damage, Blitz didnt have decaying speed and his hook CD was shorter, his base stats higher, Morg did more damage, her root was longer at early ranks. Alistar still had buffering post headbutt, and had built in AD on his ult, and his cooldowns were shorter.
And then all the champs who lose base stats in favor of AP ratios when they started getting supports gold for free. .
Have we really come full circle into pretending that season 3 was a fun time to play support? It was completely degenerate and the most skill required was the willingness to swallow your balls and buy 500 green wards plus maybe boots, because buying even Sightstone meant you were playing suboptimally. It was a shit period in the game's design to have 1/5 of your team have no agency whatsoever.
On October 25 2017 22:42 Ansibled wrote: I know I posted similar already, but it's just funny to look at.
Lol that 550 AP also means that galio gets 67.5% plus 8% bonus MR magic reduction and like 40% physical reduction as well.
Just why rework the champ away from a mage, only to make him a mage again.
On October 25 2017 22:59 GrandInquisitor wrote: Have we really come full circle into pretending that season 3 was a fun time to play support? It was completely degenerate and the most skill required was the willingness to swallow your balls and buy 500 green wards plus maybe boots, because buying even Sightstone meant you were playing suboptimally. It was a shit period in the game's design to have 1/5 of your team have no agency whatsoever.
LOL thats a perfect example of what i mean by skill differentiated.
that lulu played that like garbage there and got punished. Tabe was a borderline one trick support. Outside of annie he was terrible in pro play.
Notice how leona has no deaths, is 1/0/5, and is like 2k in items ahead because the leona played better, and was rewarded dramatically for it. but lulu played terribly all game, and got beat up on because tabe couldnt adapt. If you are a bad support you shouldnt be at the same gold and xp level of the other support. and if you dominate your opponent you shouldnt be the same censor bot they are.
On October 25 2017 22:59 GrandInquisitor wrote: Have we really come full circle into pretending that season 3 was a fun time to play support? It was completely degenerate and the most skill required was the willingness to swallow your balls and buy 500 green wards plus maybe boots, because buying even Sightstone meant you were playing suboptimally. It was a shit period in the game's design to have 1/5 of your team have no agency whatsoever.
I'm not talking about just getting one shot. I'm talking about her being literally eight levels lower, half an hour into the game, and still having done literally nothing the entire game except place wards. That is why no one wanted to play support for years.
On October 25 2017 21:25 Ansibled wrote: This galio change...
This doesn't really tell anything because every champion has very high win rates upon completing 3 items. For example Galio's most popular 3-item build was 57% winrate last patch. Even Lucian ADC was 57% winrate if he got to ER / Shiv / IE.
On October 25 2017 23:08 GrandInquisitor wrote: I'm not talking about just getting one shot. I'm talking about her being literally eight levels lower, half an hour into the game, and still having done literally nothing the entire game except place wards. That is why no one wanted to play support for years.
She played terribly and got punished. thats a game tabe blew flash at lvl 1 because he was out of postion. and he kept getting caught in lane. he layed bad got punished. leona stomped got rewarded. as it should be.
show me a game from the modern league where a support on one side had 6 kills they got for their team and the other is 0/5/0, where the ahead support is rewarded in any way personally. No, they are like ahead on the ardent or both have it and one has an upgraded coin. There is no reward for doing well on support except your team doing better.
No one liked playing support (outside of support mains) because they sucked at it, and couldnt do anything because they sucked.
On October 25 2017 23:08 GrandInquisitor wrote: I'm not talking about just getting one shot. I'm talking about her being literally eight levels lower, half an hour into the game, and still having done literally nothing the entire game except place wards. That is why no one wanted to play support for years.
She played terribly and got punished. thats a game tabe blew flash at lvl 1 because he was out of postion. and he kept getting caught in lane. he layed bad got punished. leona stomped got rewarded. as it should be.
I have no idea why you think this is relevant. Lulu played poorly that game and got punished. Bad Lulus today continue to get punished. But no one wants to play a role that is allowed to buy nothing other than wards, because the role has no purpose other than placing wards for the entire game, regardless of whether you're doing well or poorly.
On October 25 2017 23:13 PrinceXizor wrote: show me a game from the modern league where a support on one side had 6 kills they got for their team and the other is 0/5/0, where the ahead support is rewarded in any way personally. No, they are like ahead on the ardent or both have it and one has an upgraded coin. There is no reward for doing well on support except your team doing better.
This is even more confusing. First you spent all this time extolling the virtues of being able to ward up the entire map to help your team. Now apparently that's not good enough, and you want me to find a game where modern supports are "personally rewarded" - because apparently it was so personally rewarding as a support to be able to back and buy 8 green wards instead of 4 green wards.
wow you actually cant understand why it was more rewarding to be skillful in S2/3 than now. even when i explained it huh.
lol
The best support got items and got ahead and won the game in s2/3. in s7, the best support is the one that locked in lulu/janna and had the better adc.
no one wants to play a role where their skill is pretty irrelevant, unless they arent skillful or just want to be carried. there is a reason most of the top supports on ladder are janna or lulu or soraka one tricks. and its not because they are the most skillful players on the ladder.
I wouldn't count eve out just yet, I will concede that I overestimated her power level with learning, it actually had the opposite effect. Seems like people learning what eve did > learning how to play her so her winrate actually stagnated.
However, Riot says they are looking to buff her and simultaneously the new rune/mastery system is a huge buff to eve, a lot of stuff she likes there so I think she will come back in a big way, even if it's just solo q.
No comment on the galio thing until I see it in action, but looks like kassadin 2.0 in terms of being every mid mage main's new nightmare
I think she needs to get her MR shred whether she gets the charm or not. Her damage feels so low even fee if you can't get the charm off. To the point where you may not be able to kill a warlords 2 item ADC alone if you can't get it off or don't have red smite.
On October 25 2017 23:08 GrandInquisitor wrote: I'm not talking about just getting one shot. I'm talking about her being literally eight levels lower, half an hour into the game, and still having done literally nothing the entire game except place wards. That is why no one wanted to play support for years.
I dunno, once there are wards in the river the enemy lane had better had gotten ahead already or I'd bully them into oblivion with Leona, Lulu or other aggressive supports, and once we've killed them 5 them you can bet your ass I'll never be more than 3 levels behind an enemy solo laner even if he's fed.
You're talking about people not leveraging shit when they're relying on a baseline instead of actually making plays and using what's available to them. That's exactly the same as, say, people whining that they don't have a special power when playing mafia. That doesn't mean you can't do shit. And you get ahead by using what's available better than the other guy—buying 500 wards and no sightstone was never the optimal play, so just shit on whoever played like this at that time.
On October 25 2017 23:18 GrandInquisitor wrote: Bad Lulus today continue to get punished.
Much less than they used to. Absolute trash Lulus still get equally dumpstered, but the difference between good and bad ones has much less impact on the game than in S2/S3.
On October 25 2017 23:08 GrandInquisitor wrote: I'm not talking about just getting one shot. I'm talking about her being literally eight levels lower, half an hour into the game, and still having done literally nothing the entire game except place wards. That is why no one wanted to play support for years.
I dunno, once there are wards in the river the enemy lane had better had gotten ahead already or I'd bully them into oblivion with Leona, Lulu or other aggressive supports, and once we've killed them 5 them you can bet your ass I'll never be more than 3 levels behind an enemy solo laner even if he's fed.
You're talking about people not leveraging shit when they're relying on a baseline instead of actually making plays and using what's available to them. That's exactly the same as, say, people whining that they don't have a special power when playing mafia. That doesn't mean you can't do shit. And you get ahead by using what's available better than the other guy—buying 500 wards and no sightstone was never the optimal play, so just shit on whoever played like this at that time.
That was exactly the problem with S2/S3, teams that were ahead had a million wards plus map pressure, and slowly choked the enemy team out. It made for some very boring games, that was why teams like GMB and WE were so much fun to watch, rather than CLG EU causing their opponents to die of old age.
CLG didn't really get ahead, they just weren't that good mechanically so they rarely outplayed their opponent and didn't want to risk proactive plays to make that happen, so they choked and farmed until a 20k gold lead made them unable to lose.
Or they turtled for 25 minutes after getting behind early with Anivia's stupid insta-clear + wall until Froggen was 6-slotted and the gold deficit on the other carries was negligible (being behind 2k doesn't matter when teams have 60+k total).
Those two statements were only loosely related, didn't phrase that properly. Yeah, CLG EU was never a strong laning team, they preferred just waiting out games to the point where gold didn't matter. Ironically, even by the 60 minute mark supports were often not full build, simply because there were no real support items, and they had to buy all the wards because no one else had a slot free.
I for one am glad that SS3 is long in the past, although I did enjoy the holy trinity of ADC, miss old Graves...
On October 25 2017 19:21 Numy wrote: I loved the bitch support just because I could take over the whole map vision and bitch slap the enemy support vision. I doubt Riot would ever have shop cooldown items. They may not have the tech to do it or it'll take a hell of a long time to sort out.
Reading that Rioter saying they dislike sightstone being item supports need every game was just disheaterning. Vision is one of the most rewarding aspects of it all. Seeing that map light up, tracking where enemy is, allowing your team to do all kinds of aggressive plays safely. That's all the great aspects of being a support. Just buying items you can do at any other role. Supports and to some extent Junglers are ones that work with the intangibles. Why change that? Why is that not good enough?
In dota1 I was mainly a Dazzle player for the team, if I was able to get 1 bracers for myself in a given game it was my lucky day, this post explains very well what I like about support role in team games
hopefully they don't change the sightstone, I think it has been a good addition to league
On October 25 2017 23:18 GrandInquisitor wrote: Bad Lulus today continue to get punished.
Much less than they used to. Absolute trash Lulus still get equally dumpstered, but the difference between good and bad has much less impact on the game than on S2/S3.
exactly. and slight differences in supports are practically meaningless now. where they were abusable in S2/S3. Which is part of the reason it sucked for people who dont play support to get the role, as it was much more abusable if you were a bit worse then say mid lane or something where you can just pick into the matchup better or pick someone who can wave clear safely and just wait for the jungler to make your plays for you.
A support doesnt have that luxury in S2/S3. you dont get to wait for coin ardent to carry you out of your lane you are worse in than your opponent. if you are a little worse at trading, you will lose lane, and if you lose lane you will end up poor, and then if you can't scrap back in with good plays, you will lose the game.
so you had to do all those things. and if there is a skill that league of legends players have lacked and still lack. its how to play from behind, and how to close out games. and both those skills used to be incredibly important on support. and now they are more shifted onto ADC and the support essentially could be a bot script and you wouldnt lose anything.
there was the duo in korea lately that abused twitch/janna to challenger and were accused of support botting for exactly that reason.
Which level of play are you talking about for this Support play? Solo q, pro play, or both?
So to boil down what you're trying to say: - There was more "skill" differential between Supports in S2/S3 because better Support players could create an edge in regards to vision (e.g. 8 wards vs 4 wards) - Supports in S7 are all homogenized and it's harder to separate good from the bad if they all end up getting 4 items by end game
I'll agree with you that it's much harder to identify an amazing Support player, especially in the current Censer meta at Worlds. Aggressive, play making supports is typically how people pick out a great Support from a sea of decent supports and the passive Support champions that use Censer aren't conducive of showcasing strength from the Support position.
That said, there was so much wrong in the S2/S3 Support role, despite having more drastic skill disparities. Literal ward bots are not fun to watch and even less fun to play. The current S7 Worlds meta might be a little doldrums but there's no way I'd prefer to play or watch Support from a S2/S3 patch again. Lastly, that Twitch/Janna comment seems entirely nonsensical. Two Challenger players duo queuing together and smashing bot lanes back to Challenger is hardly indicative of anything.
I feel like PX's arguments are all backwards. Warding is not some measure of profound skill. There is no such thing as an MLG Warding Montage, because there is no skill involved in dropping wards everywhere. You are limited only by how much money you have and how much of a bitch you were willing to be.
Add to that the fact that you were 100% reliant on your team to do something about your vision, and your literal one task in the game a) took no skill b) was completely useless except insofar as it allowed your teammates to make plays c) gave you no agency whatsoever. Instead, support has become a more skill-focused role now, because you actually have to do things other than spam wards.
Put it this way. Imagine if we removed all the vision from the game, made League a 6v6 game, and assigned a team's entire vision responsibilities all onto that one extra player, who had literally nothing to do the entire game except ward everywhere. One, who the fuck would queue up for this role, and two, if you had to carry a useless sack of shit, you would 100% stick him into that role every single game.
Likewise, you wanna talk about playing from behind? It was literally impossible in S2-S3 to win comebacks except for the "waveclear for 60 minutes" comps. When the winning team has perfect vision of you, there's nothing you can do in response.
GI you realize literally everything you just posted can be applied to D5 Janna mains.
Edit: K, I'll dive into it.
On October 26 2017 04:16 GrandInquisitor wrote: I feel like PX's arguments are all backwards. Warding is not some measure of profound skill. There is no such thing as an MLG Warding Montage, because there is no skill involved in dropping wards everywhere. You are limited only by how much money you have and how much of a bitch you were willing to be.
Vision control is definitely a skill, although perhaps it's less pronounced right now than back then. In pro play vision has always been a team job, especially in the earlygame. In S2-S3 every pro player bought wards before 10 minutes, and in the current season everybody buys pinks as well. However, the baseline for vision control is a lot higher now than it was back then, and the relatively large differences between players in terms of vision control skill back then were magnified by the role of supports. I agree that there is no skill involved in just spamming one button, but luckily that's not what actually happened. Deciding where to ward, when to ward, when it was safe etc was definitely something that certain players did better than others, which directly led to gold leads and won games.
Add to that the fact that you were 100% reliant on your team to do something about your vision, and your literal one task in the game a) took no skill b) was completely useless except insofar as it allowed your teammates to make plays c) gave you no agency whatsoever. Instead, support has become a more skill-focused role now, because you actually have to do things other than spam wards.
Yes, it's a team game, who'd have thought you required your team to do stuff, especially around stuff like vision, which was a team job anyway. Still, you had pings and if you were playing things like Ali or Blitz you could definitely set your team up for victory. For your point b, are you literally saying "it was useless except it wasn't"? And yes, now you have to spam E on your ADC instead of whatever your ward hotkey was on the ground. Oh wait, they already had to spam E back then as well. Or spam W if you were playing Nunu. Engage supports worked roughly the same way so there's not a whole lot of change there either. Not sure what you mean here.
Put it this way. Imagine if we removed all the vision from the game, made League a 6v6 game, and assigned a team's entire vision responsibilities all onto that one extra player, who had literally nothing to do the entire game except ward everywhere. One, who the fuck would queue up for this role, and two, if you had to carry a useless sack of shit, you would 100% stick him into that role every single game.
This is kinda what's already happening, except you have to change "6v6" to "5v5". In soloq trinkets exist, and in pro play people are pretty good at vision control as a team, but there's a reason why most people who get boosted play support during the whole getting boosted part.
Likewise, you wanna talk about playing from behind? It was literally impossible in S2-S3 to win comebacks except for the "waveclear for 60 minutes" comps. When the winning team has perfect vision of you, there's nothing you can do in response.
Not sure how this is any different today, in terms of big gold leads. Even back then, if team A has a 3k gold lead but team B has better scaling, they still came back a decent amount of the time. Of course I don't have the exact stats, but I don't believe this changed too much, especially with the new baron being a lot stronger in this aspect. People were so trash at the game back then compared to now that I don't think we can really compare this too well though. The top pros have become a lot better at knowing how to win games.
Whoa there while I think PX is going a bit far you can't dismiss warding like that. It's a big skill and a massive part of what being a jungler/support means in current League. Neo may be right that this is just my Dota roots showing but warding has always been an important skill that gets praised a ton.
Am I just the only one that gets super happy when I'm playing and see a lit up map by the support aggressively warding? It's freaking sexy especially as a jungler.
edit: Actually thought popped up. I wonder if supports were the most healthy when rushing sightstone or mobi boots is the best. Both options provide no real raw power but instead intangible benefits that give supports the ability to impact the game showing off their skill. Are items like ardent just fundamentally flawed?
I am amazed that people disagree about this. To me, warding is by far the easiest thing to do in the game, which is why you get so much criticism if you don't do it effectively at the pro level. When TSM doesn't pink ward enough, no one says it's because "they aren't skilled enough" to be placing pinks, but simply that they are being greedy and holding onto Doran's Rings or something.
So I strongly disagree that warding is a measure of skill. Not dying while warding? I'll give you that. I'll even grant you that warding in the modern game is more challenging than it used to be, because it's a team effort and each team member is limited to 3 wards + 1 pink.
But I will stand by the argument that warding is a chore, not a skill, and it is one of the easiest things in the game to do. So by extension, the period of the game where one role had literally no responsibilities aside from warding was one of the worst-designed periods of the game, because it is neither fun nor skill-expressive to have literally your entire gameplay be boiled down to a ministerial task.
On October 26 2017 04:26 Fildun wrote: GI you realize literally everything you just posted can be applied to D5 Janna mains.
On October 26 2017 04:16 GrandInquisitor wrote: I feel like PX's arguments are all backwards. Warding is not some measure of profound skill. There is no such thing as an MLG Warding Montage, because there is no skill involved in dropping wards everywhere. You are limited only by how much money you have and how much of a bitch you were willing to be.
Vision control is definitely a skill, although perhaps it's less pronounced right now than back then. In pro play vision has always been a team job, especially in the earlygame. In S2-S3 every pro player bought wards before 10 minutes, and in the current season everybody buys pinks as well. However, the baseline for vision control is a lot higher now than it was back then, and the relatively large differences between players in terms of vision control skill back then were magnified by the role of supports. I agree that there is no skill involved in just spamming one button, but luckily that's not what actually happened. Deciding where to ward, when to ward, when it was safe etc was definitely something that certain players did better than others, which directly led to gold leads and won games.
Add to that the fact that you were 100% reliant on your team to do something about your vision, and your literal one task in the game a) took no skill b) was completely useless except insofar as it allowed your teammates to make plays c) gave you no agency whatsoever. Instead, support has become a more skill-focused role now, because you actually have to do things other than spam wards.
Yes, it's a team game, who'd have thought you required your team to do stuff, especially around stuff like vision, which was a team job anyway. Still, you had pings and if you were playing things like Ali or Blitz you could definitely set your team up for victory. For your point b, are you literally saying "it was useless except it wasn't"? And yes, now you have to spam E on your ADC instead of whatever your ward hotkey was on the ground. Oh wait, they already had to spam E back then as well. Or spam W if you were playing Nunu. Engage supports worked roughly the same way so there's not a whole lot of change there either. Not sure what you mean here.
Put it this way. Imagine if we removed all the vision from the game, made League a 6v6 game, and assigned a team's entire vision responsibilities all onto that one extra player, who had literally nothing to do the entire game except ward everywhere. One, who the fuck would queue up for this role, and two, if you had to carry a useless sack of shit, you would 100% stick him into that role every single game.
This is kinda what's already happening, except you have to change "6v6" to "5v5". In soloq trinkets exist, and in pro play people are pretty good at vision control as a team, but there's a reason why most people who get boosted play support during the whole getting boosted part.
Likewise, you wanna talk about playing from behind? It was literally impossible in S2-S3 to win comebacks except for the "waveclear for 60 minutes" comps. When the winning team has perfect vision of you, there's nothing you can do in response.
Not sure how this is any different today, in terms of big gold leads. Even back then, if team A has a 3k gold lead but team B has better scaling, they still came back a decent amount of the time. Of course I don't have the exact stats, but I don't believe this changed too much, especially with the new baron being a lot stronger in this aspect. People were so trash at the game back then compared to now that I don't think we can really compare this too well though. The top pros have become a lot better at knowing how to win games.
I think you and I agree more than you think. Support remains the easiest role to get carried. But my point was that PX was trying to claim that this was somehow different in S2-S3, because wardbotting was somehow a profound measure of personal skill. When in reality it just made support even more bitch-mode than it is now, turning basically the entire role into the duo D5 Janna.
Yes, warding is important. IMO they went too far by removing buyable wards (and switching to the sightstone only meta), but were correct to kill oracles elixer (both the timed and infinite until death versions). Oracles elixer was the real problem. It both caused the vision blackout that stalled games in pro play, and starved supports too much in soloQ because it was 400 gold.
In addition, they made those changes simultaneously with increasing passive gold generation which would have made them richer even with the old warding system. I don't think that currently they are striking the correct balance between enjoyable soloQ (which I disagree with PX on) and high level vision plays (in pro play, which feels increasingly RNG with results). I'd like if they increased the # of charges and # of wards one can place on sighstone (you can level gate it with a purchase upgrade like they do with the trinkets). There is simply too little vision in pro play once laners start getting maxed out on items, and it means games stall into teamfights that end up being either Comp wins or RNG (I think everyone knows I hate smite steals, at the very least they should make that like Rift Herald where you have to get the kill & stand on a thing for a significant amount of time).
GI's post is pretty indicative of what made supports more interesting in S2/3 compared to now, though.
Warding is not some measure of profound skill. There is no such thing as an MLG Warding Montage, because there is no skill involved in dropping wards everywhere. You are limited only by how much money you have and how much of a bitch you were willing to be.
Timing and placement are very important things. There's no such thing as "dropping wards everywhere", unless you want to squander every last bit of gold you get (and then whine about being unable to afford more than boots1).
Knowing how many wards to use, when, where, and especially when you can afford not to ward (in general or at specific places) and save gold for items are important skills. Some very simple things:
- knowing usual gank timings depending on routes, especially in lower leagues (my Elo was never above Plat III and until toward the last third of S3 was only high Gold) where people use cookie-cutter builds and paths. Not needing to ward until after these timing if you could control the wave, or convince your laner to play more defensively. On the contrary, making sure to put a ward there and still playing forward to bait him could allow your solo lanes to feel safer if the jungler does come and you make him hope for an opportunity (that super aggressive Xin top? Your 75 gold make sure he doesn't give up 600 for fb+assist if you see the jungler, or ping his river otherwise).
- people said dragon was super influential. Against a Fiddlestick, WW, Pantheon or other good solo dragon champ, knowing the spots and timings to keep drake lit as well as at least one entrance so you don't use an additional ward made sure you wouldn't get cheesed, or could ambush him.
- warding for mid. A support with no presence, items or not, wouldn't be able to create windows for their laner to safely 1v2. And mid used to expect jungle/support to ward both sides for them (hence my dumping my gold lead into wards giving me an edge at the time), so knowing how to manipulate the wave and the gank timings and likeliness of a jungler being on the other side would let you walk up to mid and ward it (even gank if on an initiator and bot is safe even if they see you're elsewhere, not just hiding in a bush) then come back without getting your laner zoned or killed.
You expect people to be ward bitches and poor as heck because you believe supporting was all about being a ward bitch and lighting up the map. Ideally you'd get total vision, sure. But being a good support was about getting as close to total vision as possible in terms of information while cutting as many corners as possible to maximise lane presence, gold and experience. A mediocre support would spam wards as a way to cover their inability to infer information and act on it, and be poor as result, while a better one would dump less resources and have more items. A bad support would just spam wards because he's been thought that's what he's supposed to do (and frankly, that's exactly what you're exhibiting here).
And I haven't even mentioned lane presence, aggressiveness, how to play around the opponent's vision, ward timings, and all these thing connected to vision and warding too.
Scarcity is a thing and it creates tension—another word Riot loves to spew in regard to their kits but that doesn't have much value (especially when they remove point'n'click abilities all the time and thus remove one of their biggest points of tension).
On October 26 2017 04:27 Numy wrote: edit: Actually thought popped up. I wonder if supports were the most healthy when rushing sightstone or mobi boots is the best. Both options provide no real raw power but instead intangible benefits that give supports the ability to impact the game showing off their skill. Are items like ardent just fundamentally flawed?
Ardent is not inherently flawed. It was just overtuned. The ideal selection of support items would be items that give permanent passive buffs to your teammate, and stronger one-shot effects that require good timing/execution. Frozen Heart would be an example of the former, and Mikael's an example of the latter. Ardent is fine as an example of the former - but it was just way too ridiculously strong because it was basically a permanent passive buff, which is why I could never believe why no one built the damn thing for the 10+months it was hidden OP.
Warding is not some measure of profound skill. There is no such thing as an MLG Warding Montage, because there is no skill involved in dropping wards everywhere. You are limited only by how much money you have and how much of a bitch you were willing to be.
Timing and placement are very important things. There's no such thing as "dropping wards everywhere", unless you want to squander every last bit of gold you get (and then whine about being unable to afford more than boots1).
Knowing how many wards to use, when, where, and especially when you can afford not to ward (in general or at specific places) and save gold for items are important skills. Some very simple things:
- knowing usual gank timings depending on routes, especially in lower leagues (my Elo was never above Plat III and until toward the last third of S3 was only high Gold) where people use cookie-cutter builds and paths. Not needing to ward until after these timing if you could control the wave, or convince your laner to play more defensively. On the contrary, making sure to put a ward there and still playing forward to bait him could allow your solo lanes to feel safer if the jungler does come and you make him hope for an opportunity (that super aggressive Xin top? Your 75 gold make sure he doesn't give up 600 for fb+assist if you see the jungler, or ping his river otherwise).
- people said dragon was super influential. Against a Fiddlestick, WW, Pantheon or other good solo dragon champ, knowing the spots and timings to keep drake lit as well as at least one entrance so you don't use an additional ward made sure you wouldn't get cheesed, or could ambush him.
- warding for mid. A support with no presence, items or not, wouldn't be able to create windows for their laner to safely 1v2. And mid used to expect jungle/support to ward both sides for them (hence my dumping my gold lead into wards giving me an edge at the time), so knowing how to manipulate the wave and the gank timings and likeliness of a jungler being on the other side would let you walk up to mid and ward it (even gank if on an initiator and bot is safe even if they see you're elsewhere, not just hiding in a bush) then come back without getting your laner zoned or killed.
You expect people to be ward bitches and poor as heck because you believe supporting was all about being a ward bitch and lighting up the map. Ideally you'd get total vision, sure. But being a good support was about getting as close to total vision as possible in terms of information while cutting as many corners as possible to maximise lane presence, gold and experience. A mediocre support would spam wards as a way to cover their inability to infer information and act on it, and be poor as result, while a better one would dump less resources and have more items. A bad support would just spam wards because he's been thought that's what he's supposed to do (and frankly, that's exactly what you're exhibiting here).
And I haven't even mentioned lane presence, aggressiveness, how to play around the opponent's vision, ward timings, and all these thing connected to vision and warding too.
Scarcity is a thing and it creates tension—another word Riot loves to spew in regard to their kits but that doesn't have much value (especially when they remove point'n'click abilities all the time and thus remove one of their biggest points of tension).
So, I said, warding does not take a lot of skill, and you responded with the following counterexamples of how warding required skill:
1) You need to know that junglers tend to gank after their first buff, and also after their second buff; 2) You need to ward dragon against junglers that do dragon; 3) You need to ward, in addition to your own lane, MID LANE too, and you should do that when your mid laner is pushing and not die to the other jungler while warding.
I'm going to stick by my argument that warding does not take a lot of skill. You could learn all of that in like, half an hour. Heck you could probably even learn it from LS, it's so straightforward.
Your points that it takes skill to create presence in lane so you can go off and ward is well-taken. But the actual act of warding itself is not the skillful part, it was your play in lane that allowed you to go off and perform your chores. That was the skill involved.
More generally every single one of your examples, and indeed your whole argument, is that good supports do more with fewer wards than bad supports do with more. Yeah, which is why when you give every support unlimited wards, it dumbs down the game.
I think warding is easy, but warding well isn't. Mainly because so many people, myself included, still fuck it up a lot. The main issue I have with your argument is that you say that the role has become more skill-intensive after they removed the S2-3 vision system. Both back then and right now people still just play their champs, they just have less warding to do. I don't really see too much added skill from the new support items either. When I see stuff like Redemption, Mikael's etc I don't see it as that much more skill-involved than spamming wards.
On the topic of Ardent being OP for so long, I think you're kinda rewriting history there. Yes, it was strong after 6.13 or whatever patch they overbuffed it, but most of the period after that patch was still Jhin Varus lethality meta, which was even stronger than Ardent. People already played Kog+Lulu back then as well, but that was mostly boosters/scripters because it was really pubstompy, while at the same time tanks were even stronger back then, plus the added utility from the ADC/support role meant it was harder to stay alive as well.
It's not that Ardent wasn't popular. It's that it was literally never even built, even when supporting non-lethality champions. Ashe, Caitlyn, and Sivir were all popular late season 6 - early season 7; in fact Ashe was even more popular than Varus. And yet no one built it, ever, even though Karma and Lulu were meta.
We obviously don't know what would have happened in a parallel timeline, but I would bet that a hypercarry Ardent meta was perfectly viable back in the day. It's just that no one thought to do it, or wanted to try it, or realized the implication of this item.
The fact that we went from "no one builds this joke item, ever" to "you're trolling if you don't start relic shield on Kog'Maw so your support can get Censer faster" kind of demonstrates that the playerbase kind of missed something along the way. Like, there's obviously some middle ground there, and we just skipped right past it once people finally realized how good this item was.
I think between PX's warding arguments and Grinq's, I side with the latter. Warding is not skill intensive but it does require a certain amount of replay analysis outside the game and timing/warding location during the game. It's not a practiced skill but still requires a certain amount of knowledge to have it done properly.
Frankly, most Support players/champions are not very skill intensive and I'm ok with that. Not every position in League needs to have highlight reel potential.
Edit: Censer such a silly item but wasn't realized until much after the fact. That amuses me a little. Edit2: imagine if you could bounce wards off each other like you can Teemo shrooms. :D
You're just spamming "you need" and grossly oversimplifying what I say in order to undermine it. Is that really how we're going to have an argument?
Dropping a ward in front of dragon makes sure you won't get cheesed, but that's an additional ward if you don't know when to place it, and a lot of gold if you keep it up all the time. Knowing when to have it up, and the places to put it (also counts because Fiddle and J4 don't solo dragon with the same routes and timings for example) is a thing, and if you're keeping a 3rd ward in the bottom river up at all times obviously you're going to have less gold than the one who knows how to do it.
Having a rough idea of jungle gank timings, and checking where the jungler starts and solo lanes' situation (that super-aggro Fizz mid is more likely to get ganked post-buff than your Cait-Janna lane) also plays a role. Laning phase also lasts longer than just the jungler's first clear: being able to estimate his recall timings, and timing when buffs are taken (before it was gifted to you), which side he's in, and evaluating when he's hitting level 6 are all important, notably to know when you can afford to go and deep ward without going face-to-face with him. I said I wasn't going into details because it'd get even longer, are you really going to make me spell it all out?
You treat warding as "the act of clicking a button then clicking the ground, regardless of place, time or game state." Aside from being in bad faith, obviously you're going to miss all the ways to do it properly and get edges.
My issue with vision is more about how much of it is free now, and the high baseline that prevents one from willingly investing more into it to create an edge (which requires skill, because it's more than placing a ward, it's using that 75 gold well and also the intention behind it of getting something out—it's not placing a ward mechanically-speaking, sure, but the whole planning is made around the act of placing an additional ward, so that's part of "warding.")
I really don't understand how you can think building an item like frozen heart or censer is more skillful than placing wards. Also even in S2/3 you still needed to buy wards for money it's not like at every point in the game you could place wards everywhere.
As someone who has mained support since s2 I am definitely gonna remember this one. Almost as good as "you can't tell the difference between 40 and 80 ping".
Hardest support meta was s3 with annie/leona/zyra/thresh and assassin mid.
I mean, I don't understand why the S3 thing was all bad, and supports having items is. It was legitimately unfun in sub-plat leagues to play support because even if you warded well, no one really knew what to do with that and you would get blown up (on the other hand, you could just ward less and actually build Shurelias, which was a better support item than any support item currently in the game). Thus, the passive gold change was a positive for soloq. Combine that with eliminating the gold sink that was oracles, and IMO supports were in a healthy gold state.
However, the current vision environment in pro play sucks. Teams play like pussies because they don't have the right vision. Its not possible to control vision around baron without giving up a sneak dragon, that's dumb. Its really hard to actually siege without baron even at T2 turrets because you can't properly control flanks. That's why every game feels like it turns on a chaotic teamfight or a throw. There is a balance to be struck, particularly in the lategame.
On October 26 2017 06:21 cLutZ wrote: I mean, I don't understand why the S3 thing was all bad, and supports having items is. It was legitimately unfun in sub-plat leagues to play support because even if you warded well, no one really knew what to do with that and you would get blown up (on the other hand, you could just ward less and actually build Shurelias, which was a better support item than any support item currently in the game). Thus, the passive gold change was a positive for soloq. Combine that with eliminating the gold sink that was oracles, and IMO supports were in a healthy gold state.
However, the current vision environment in pro play sucks. Teams play like pussies because they don't have the right vision. Its not possible to control vision around baron without giving up a sneak dragon, that's dumb. Its really hard to actually siege without baron even at T2 turrets because you can't properly control flanks. That's why every game feels like it turns on a chaotic teamfight or a throw. There is a balance to be struck, particularly in the lategame.
Idk, support sub plat used to have much more laning power to carry.
Now you need to buy SS, upgrade your gold item, and hard rush ardent. Even ignoring ardent, S2 support getting fed meant you could buy 3 DBlades and 1v2 the lane while your ad free farmed. Getting to buy as a support and picking up a dorans with wards could win you the lane. Doing so now and delaying income upgrades or sight stone can just lose you the game. Used to be sacrificing a few wards for aggression and lane control, now it's an all in.
Granted I was a much better player then so maybe I'm just an awful support now. Haha.
from what I observed, its not that warding is a concept that is difficult to grasp. The difficult part for many players is remembering what they know in game and having the discipline to apply what they know about warding in game.
I've played with so many people who know how to ward but always seem to 'forget' to do so in game. I mean I guarantee if we all posted replays of our games here it would be fairly easy to point out a lot of our shitty ward habits or a time we fucked up some type of warding. Warding is one of the easiest ways I can tell who actually has some discipline when they play.
so yes while warding is not 'hard' it is at the same time, apparently hard.
On October 26 2017 06:02 nafta wrote: As someone who has mained support since s2 I am definitely gonna remember this one. Almost as good as "you can't tell the difference between 40 and 80 ping".
Hardest support meta was s3 with annie/leona/zyra/thresh and assassin mid.
gotta love it when the entire team relies on your warding and you just bought oracles but they have a zed or some shit you don't see on the map and you're some squishy like zyra.
On October 26 2017 05:32 NeoIllusions wrote: I think between PX's warding arguments and Grinq's, I side with the latter. Warding is not skill intensive but it does require a certain amount of replay analysis outside the game and timing/warding location during the game. It's not a practiced skill but still requires a certain amount of knowledge to have it done properly.
You do realize That my argument about support in S2/3 pretty much never warding as the primary skill.
that was 100% Grand making a strawman to argue against.
Because what i did say was, good supports get items, because they are efficient and get their team kills. bad supports, get stuck warding an tryin gto play from behind, and if they struggle at warding just INT all game, like tabe did in the link, where he burned his flash at lvl 1 by facechecking vs a leona without his team. and then proceeded to lose all lane control because leona e kept him so scared he couldnt push up, and when he did, he died because he misplayed both the fights and his positioning. Meanwhile leona threw a couple thousand into items because leona kept control of the map with fewer wards, and did better at every stage of the game.
The good support won the game, and had everything they needed. the bad support. looked bad. played bad, and struggled to do anything because they were not as good.
Wardings always important, warding when it costs somehting to ward, and not just 30 seconds to recall and walk back, means it has more skill than now. but you become a ward bot at a support, only if you sucked at it in s2/s3. or at the very least, sucked more than your opponent. now. if im the better support by a mile, my adc has ~400 more gold, and I have my ardent 1 minute sooner. rather than having my ruby, boots and resists/cdr over my opponent. and the opposing support being beaten down by his poor play.
That losing all that ability to show how much better you were at the role isn't good for the role. An that its turned into a carry me role, rather than a role where you carried your team, albeit not in the way most people view. Good supports were impressive to watch in S2/S3. Now the only support play people can remember from worlds this year is Misfits vs SKT. and thats because they deliberately put their censor away from support, specifically in order to let the support stand out.
Every single other games support vs support matchup is actually one homogeneous blur with no one standing out skillfully. meanwhile how many supports made their name in S2/S3, Mata, Cain, Madlife, poohmandu's thresh, Swordart got popular back then in part for zyra.
I havent seen a single interview where a pro support player likes this meta, and also thinks themselves a top support. because it doesnt matter if you are better than your opponent. all that makes is neither of you are trash. The most memorable games this year have been misfits vs SKT and its in part because the supports got to play league of legends and not press shield simulator. the most impactful play outside of that game i can remember from supports is seeing (NAME A SUPPORT) use janna ult to top off the team after a skirmish and proceed to win fight -> take baron -> win game. but there isn't really a support above platinum that couldnt do the exact same thing as any support at worlds in that play. Supports used to be banned out because X players Y support was too much of a monster (or they were banning sona to ban sona) but now the only reason you ban a support (outside of SKT misfits which was a return to skillful supports), is because you want to force the other team into the next censor support down the line, so you can snag a certain matchup in another lane.
playing support as a filled player is infinitely better than being forced into support from S2/S3. but like. thats because you actually had to have skill to play support then. You can take a high gold player and get them to diamond by ensuring they janna every game. but in S2/S3 that high gold player who swaps to support is gonna plummet until they learn how to play the role, because it was so dramatically different from the others.
The closest thing we have now is like Jungler? someone who never junglers being put in the jungle tanks the team, the way that a non support playing support tanked the team in S2/S3.
This Galio change is legit garbage, really can't believe Rito let through such an absurd oversight.
That losing all that ability to show how much better you were at the role isn't good for the role. An that its turned into a carry me role, rather than a role where you carried your team, albeit not in the way most people view. Good supports were impressive to watch in S2/S3. Now the only support play people can remember from worlds this year is Misfits vs SKT. and thats because they deliberately put their censor away from support, specifically in order to let the support stand out.
Once the Ardent meta falls out again, I think we'll start seeing playmaking supports again. Hopefully Riot will also finally address Janna and rework her into something more engaging. Sona and Lulu are decently balanced, instead of nerfing them Rito could just buff engage supports more. Ignar also reminded me that watching a good Leona is incredibly fun, maybe Riot will buff her a bit to get her seeing more competitive play.
Maybe Riot should just remove Ardent altogether, if it's a weak item then no one will buy it all and it'll turn into another Ohmwrecker.
Janna isn't a problem. If she was a problem she would have been a problem since S2.
The problem is lack of in-client voice chat which fundamentally breaks soloQ and pro play when it comes to champ select.
Soon enough in spring Janna will probably be meaningless in pro play, while sporting a 55%+ winrate in diamond+, and it will all be because of lack of coordination, aka voice chat.
Why do we not have voice chat when Xbox has had it for 10 years? IDK, but my suspicion is because Riot prefers to police text chat with tribunal instead.
On October 26 2017 17:00 cLutZ wrote: Why do we not have voice chat when Xbox has had it for 10 years? IDK, but my suspicion is because Riot prefers to police text chat with tribunal instead.
Theres a few legitimate reasons.
Voice recording have a ton of legal issues with them, so riot couldnt record anything for policing. Its also muuuch larger files to store.
Voice chat can cause issues with people whose voices are representative of groups who face harassment at a higher rate, people with a voice affect that is commonly attributed to being "a gay voice", or people with higher pitched voices like children, many women, etc.
the counterpoint is, people arent as toxic on voice as they are on chat the smaller degree of anonymity does reduce the amount people are willing to say. mute buttons are a thing. obviously voice chat is superior across the board for communication,provided folk speak the same language in an understandable manner, an issue europe might have. for time, keyboard use, etc.
I dont think they'll do it. im just upset they shut down curse voice so fast. if they arent gonna do it, why should services be unable to do so on their own.
Janna isn't a problem. If she was a problem she would have been a problem since S2.
Janna wasn't a problem back then because engage supports were the dope, and because bot consisted of only Ezreal/Graves/Corki, which blow up Janna in seconds if you pair them with the likes of Taric. Then we had a long time where Thresh was god tier. Since then I believe Janna has been a staple meta pick, sometimes falling out of popularity, but always a viable pick. She's like Cait, she's been meta for too long, and if Riot wants to address her problems it's going to have to be a full rework. Now in the Ardent meta she's become god tier, and she's going to fall off with the nerfs, but I wouldn't mind seeing her disappear from bot lane for a bit.
Janna ever since they tried to rotate thresh out of meta has been one of the highest winrate supports in the game into almost everything. its just very hard to screw anything up on janna and you offload a bunch of effort onto your ally by giving them free stats., an now with easy item path, its even easier. Janna Mains have been the main supports in challenger since at least season 4.
If Janna doesn't have a high winrate it's because Riot redesigned her. She could have basically negative damage/shield/heal values and still be a yoloQ destroyer. It's her ability to control fights that makes her broken in uncoordinated play.
On October 27 2017 01:03 Jek wrote: If Janna doesn't have a high winrate it's because Riot redesigned her. She could have basically negative damage/shield/heal values and still be a yoloQ destroyer. It's her ability to control fights that makes her broken in uncoordinated play.
On October 27 2017 01:03 Jek wrote: If Janna doesn't have a high winrate it's because Riot redesigned her. She could have basically negative damage/shield/heal values and still be a yoloQ destroyer. It's her ability to control fights that makes her broken in uncoordinated play.
I think it's mainly the shield to be honest.
yep. you dont ever have to use her ult for anything but topping people off on HP and you can cruise to a solid winrate only by pressing E and censor buying.
maybe less so now because its not auto win early if you get it and they arent drastically ahead. but yeah its the shield, and the free movement.
If you balance around high level play the total win rate for Janna will always be high and the Yasuo win rate will always be low, because of how they scale inversely with/vs mechanics
On October 27 2017 06:01 Miiike wrote: Can someone link a good guide to the new rune system? All I've seen are like hour long youtube videos by randos. Thanks.
What kind of info in particular are you looking for?
On October 27 2017 04:46 Slusher wrote: If you balance around high level play the total win rate for Janna will always be high and the Yasuo win rate will always be low, because of how they scale inversely with/vs mechanics
For Janna its not mechanics, its that the way to beat her is proper coordination against her. She's a perfect example of why we need voice chat.
On October 27 2017 00:25 GrandInquisitor wrote: #hottake: if janna doesn't have a high winrate in solo queue, she's imbalanced and way too weak
this is the converse of if yasuo has a OK winrate in solo queue, he's imbalanced and way too strong
I've read this 3 times now and still kind of confused by what you mean. Could you elaborate please?
Yasuo has an extremely steep skill curve. The vast majority of Yasuo players will probably feed on him. The very best Yasuo players will be fine. This means that if the vast majority of Yasuo players are doing OK on him, the very best are tearing shit up.
Janna has an extremely flat skill curve. The vast majority of Janna players will do just fine on her. The very best Janna players, however, are getting less out of her than if they had invested that effort into Yasuo. This means that if the vast majority of Janna players are not doing OK on her, then the very best are not either.
In addition, Yasuo is a very typical "fuck my team I'm gonna 1v9 this shit" champion, whereas Janna is a very typical "I'm going to play for my team <3 <3" champion. You expect, in solo queue, that team-oriented players do better than #YOLO420BLAZEIT players, so their winrate is also a reflection of the type of people that play that champion in League. That is to say, Lux support has a bad winrate not just because Lux is trash, but because the people who pick Lux support are themselves trash.
imo voicechat is useful if you already have good teamwork. can get a bit more detailed with the plays and communicate more ideas quicker.
but if the teamwork is not there in the first place it's just a clusterfuck and it gets bad when the loudest and most aggressive voice makes shitty calls and when people try to argue with it it just becomes a 'who yells the calls louder and first'.
most of the time in soloq it's the latter.
so if you and your team get a long, feel free to just have them hop on discord or something. but I don't think a general voice feature on league for soloq would be that great. I personally would never use it. Even as a solo player I would much rather have the duos on their own voice instead of all 5 on one.
Pack it up boys, Riot says that the Galio Q changes are completely intentional, not a bug.
For Janna its not mechanics, its that the way to beat her is proper coordination against her. She's a perfect example of why we need voice chat.
Janna does well in competitive play as well, I don't see how that holds. Voice chat would give her own team better coordination, so the point seems moot.
For Janna its not mechanics, its that the way to beat her is proper coordination against her. She's a perfect example of why we need voice chat.
Janna does well in competitive play as well, I don't see how that holds. Voice chat would give her own team better coordination, so the point seems moot.
Janna has been 55% ish in soloq for 4+ seasons. She has never been a priority pick until ardent meta, and has gone through multiple year-long droughts of almost no play. I'd be surprised if, for instance, SKT supports playing with Faker have played Janna more than 5 times before the ardent buffs.
On October 27 2017 00:25 GrandInquisitor wrote: That is to say, Lux support has a bad winrate not just because Lux is trash, but because the people who pick Lux support are themselves trash.
Feels bad man :'(. I don't pick her in support role but close enough
On October 27 2017 16:35 DarkCore wrote: Pack it up boys, Riot says that the Galio Q changes are completely intentional, not a bug.
Yeah, yesterday, today Riot said that he is getting hot fixed...Riot stuff..
These statements aren't contradictory. People were speculating that maybe Galio was that strong because of a typo, but rather than take the copout they said that they intentionally but wrongfully made it that strong, and are now correcting it.
On October 28 2017 00:24 VayneAuthority wrote: A few more riot balance team members need to get gold before season end with galio then they will hotfix it appropriately
Ironically I think this came about because the playtest (not balance) team is exclusively Dia+ players. Based on preliminary stats, it seems that AP Galio had a pretty average winrate in high elo, because even though it did a lot of damage people would just play around it and beat it, like an AP Malphite. Whereas in lower elo, AP Galio had a much higher winrate as people would just keep inting into the Galio, as if the tenth time they got hit by EQW they wouldn't get one-shot.
In retrospect, even if Galio was 50% across all tiers, it's still no excuse for shipping Galio like that, because it's still hella annoying to play against even if he isn't winning most of the time. But if I am correct, it is the first time that I can recall where Riot completely dropped the ball on balancing for lower tiers.
Low skill players were playing pre buff galio AP as well. where good players were making him tanky. I was watching a lot of people in challenger/masters yesterday playing AP galio exactly the same as you played tank galio. just with no tank stats. Which set him far enough behind that he was needing to scrap back.
one of those rare cases where the bad players had an advantage over the good ones, because they were misplaying a previous iteration of a champ, and then the champ gets changed to reward that misplay instead of what was good.
On October 27 2017 16:35 DarkCore wrote: Pack it up boys, Riot says that the Galio Q changes are completely intentional, not a bug.
For Janna its not mechanics, its that the way to beat her is proper coordination against her. She's a perfect example of why we need voice chat.
Janna does well in competitive play as well, I don't see how that holds. Voice chat would give her own team better coordination, so the point seems moot.
Janna has been 55% ish in soloq for 4+ seasons. She has never been a priority pick until ardent meta, and has gone through multiple year-long droughts of almost no play. I'd be surprised if, for instance, SKT supports playing with Faker have played Janna more than 5 times before the ardent buffs.
lets not forget season 4 worlds
janna was played extensively. I think gorilla was the one that started it and then everyone hopped on. zero played it a lot and lustboy/mata played it a fair amount too. yes the ardent meta made her retarded but she is always strong when laning does not matter as much and hyper carries are meta.
she's also decent when splitpush/poke is good, I forget exactly when this was but I remember janna/trundle were super popular around the same time.
On October 27 2017 16:35 DarkCore wrote: Pack it up boys, Riot says that the Galio Q changes are completely intentional, not a bug.
For Janna its not mechanics, its that the way to beat her is proper coordination against her. She's a perfect example of why we need voice chat.
Janna does well in competitive play as well, I don't see how that holds. Voice chat would give her own team better coordination, so the point seems moot.
Janna has been 55% ish in soloq for 4+ seasons. She has never been a priority pick until ardent meta, and has gone through multiple year-long droughts of almost no play. I'd be surprised if, for instance, SKT supports playing with Faker have played Janna more than 5 times before the ardent buffs.
lets not forget season 4 worlds
janna was played extensively. I think gorilla was the one that started it and then everyone hopped on. zero played it a lot and lustboy/mata played it a fair amount too. yes the ardent meta made her retarded but she is always strong when laning does not matter as much and hyper carries are meta.
she's also decent when splitpush/poke is good, I forget exactly when this was but I remember janna/trundle were super popular around the same time.
Yes, I do recall S4 worlds, which I think was really adopted because of Najin's fastpush strategy that won them the gauntlet. That's still just 2 periods separated by 3 years.
I got in 1 game with a Galio pre nerf, I had heard he was a problem already at that point so I picked reksai and camped the living shit out of him, dude legit started the game 0-5. I tried to kill him again after his roa was finished and he 1 combo'd me and spammed the thumbs up emote.
On October 28 2017 01:03 GrandInquisitor wrote: In retrospect, even if Galio was 50% across all tiers, it's still no excuse for shipping Galio like that, because it's still hella annoying to play against even if he isn't winning most of the time. But if I am correct, it is the first time that I can recall where Riot completely dropped the ball on balancing for lower tiers.
Ehh, they've done some weird balancing for lower ELO as well in the past. Juggernaut rework immediately comes to mind, especially because those champions were pubstompers already.
On October 27 2017 16:35 DarkCore wrote: Pack it up boys, Riot says that the Galio Q changes are completely intentional, not a bug.
For Janna its not mechanics, its that the way to beat her is proper coordination against her. She's a perfect example of why we need voice chat.
Janna does well in competitive play as well, I don't see how that holds. Voice chat would give her own team better coordination, so the point seems moot.
Janna has been 55% ish in soloq for 4+ seasons. She has never been a priority pick until ardent meta, and has gone through multiple year-long droughts of almost no play. I'd be surprised if, for instance, SKT supports playing with Faker have played Janna more than 5 times before the ardent buffs.
lets not forget season 4 worlds
janna was played extensively. I think gorilla was the one that started it and then everyone hopped on. zero played it a lot and lustboy/mata played it a fair amount too. yes the ardent meta made her retarded but she is always strong when laning does not matter as much and hyper carries are meta.
she's also decent when splitpush/poke is good, I forget exactly when this was but I remember janna/trundle were super popular around the same time.
Yes, I do recall S4 worlds, which I think was really adopted because of Najin's fastpush strategy that won them the gauntlet. That's still just 2 periods separated by 3 years.
just wanted to correct you since you said never been a priority pick
I'd be surprised if, for instance, SKT supports playing with Faker have played Janna more than 5 times before the ardent buffs.
also this confuses me in your previous post since Wolf has definitely played janna more than 5 times. It was one of the 'unbeatable' skt champions for each position.
iirc - Marin's maokai, faker's leblanc, bang's kalista, wolf's janna had absurd 90%+ winrates with more than ~20 games at a certain point.
On October 28 2017 01:03 GrandInquisitor wrote: Ironically I think this came about because the playtest (not balance) team is exclusively Dia+ players. Based on preliminary stats, it seems that AP Galio had a pretty average winrate in high elo, because even though it did a lot of damage people would just play around it and beat it, like an AP Malphite. Whereas in lower elo, AP Galio had a much higher winrate as people would just keep inting into the Galio, as if the tenth time they got hit by EQW they wouldn't get one-shot.
Given the balance team's history of juggernaut Skarner, rework Leblanc, rework Janna and now Galio Q I dont have much faith in their actually ability to see what works in the game from both a balance or fun perspective.
PBE forum was literally a spam fest about issues with Skarner, everyone with just a inkling of an idea how to play Janna knew it was going to be a buff, Leblanc and Galio was just looking at numbers to realize it was fucking stupid.
On October 27 2017 16:35 DarkCore wrote: Pack it up boys, Riot says that the Galio Q changes are completely intentional, not a bug.
For Janna its not mechanics, its that the way to beat her is proper coordination against her. She's a perfect example of why we need voice chat.
Janna does well in competitive play as well, I don't see how that holds. Voice chat would give her own team better coordination, so the point seems moot.
Janna has been 55% ish in soloq for 4+ seasons. She has never been a priority pick until ardent meta, and has gone through multiple year-long droughts of almost no play. I'd be surprised if, for instance, SKT supports playing with Faker have played Janna more than 5 times before the ardent buffs.
lets not forget season 4 worlds
janna was played extensively. I think gorilla was the one that started it and then everyone hopped on. zero played it a lot and lustboy/mata played it a fair amount too. yes the ardent meta made her retarded but she is always strong when laning does not matter as much and hyper carries are meta.
she's also decent when splitpush/poke is good, I forget exactly when this was but I remember janna/trundle were super popular around the same time.
Yes, I do recall S4 worlds, which I think was really adopted because of Najin's fastpush strategy that won them the gauntlet. That's still just 2 periods separated by 3 years.
I'd be surprised if, for instance, SKT supports playing with Faker have played Janna more than 5 times before the ardent buffs.
also this confuses me in your previous post since Wolf has definitely played janna more than 5 times. It was one of the 'unbeatable' skt champions for each position.
iirc - Marin's maokai, faker's leblanc, bang's kalista, wolf's janna had absurd 90%+ winrates with more than ~20 games at a certain point.
That is weird that I totally memory-holed that one pick in 2015. The stats show it is correct, I just don't remember it nearly as much as Faker LB, Bang Kalista, Marin Maokai. It is probably because 2015 SKT played it only once in playoffs (and lost), whereas all those other picks I can remember important plays with it.
Also, I've always considered Wolf to be kinda derpy and facechecking things (whence Wolf Alistar being his best pick), so Janna seems very much against my stereotype.
On October 28 2017 01:03 GrandInquisitor wrote: Ironically I think this came about because the playtest (not balance) team is exclusively Dia+ players. Based on preliminary stats, it seems that AP Galio had a pretty average winrate in high elo, because even though it did a lot of damage people would just play around it and beat it, like an AP Malphite. Whereas in lower elo, AP Galio had a much higher winrate as people would just keep inting into the Galio, as if the tenth time they got hit by EQW they wouldn't get one-shot.
Given the balance team's history of juggernaut Skarner, rework Leblanc, rework Janna and now Galio Q I dont have much faith in their actually ability to see what works in the game from both a balance or fun perspective.
PBE forum was literally a spam fest about issues with Skarner, everyone with just a inkling of an idea how to play Janna knew it was going to be a buff, Leblanc and Galio was just looking at numbers to realize it was fucking stupid.
I don't think the PBE is really a test realm. Its more of a distraction. Reworks have gotten severe negative feedback, they always go through. Even buggy reworks like Morde go through despite being bombarded by information about it. Its more just to tell them if the game is going to explode.
On October 27 2017 16:35 DarkCore wrote: Pack it up boys, Riot says that the Galio Q changes are completely intentional, not a bug.
Yeah, yesterday, today Riot said that he is getting hot fixed...Riot stuff..
These statements aren't contradictory. People were speculating that maybe Galio was that strong because of a typo, but rather than take the copout they said that they intentionally but wrongfully made it that strong, and are now correcting it.
On October 28 2017 00:24 VayneAuthority wrote: A few more riot balance team members need to get gold before season end with galio then they will hotfix it appropriately
Ironically I think this came about because the playtest (not balance) team is exclusively Dia+ players.
According to scarra the balance team member he asked about it told him they reported that is was way too good but ultimately they only make suggestions.
Did I miss something about the blue kayn? Every game I see kayn lately, regardless if its in my games or on stream its always the blue kayn and I mean always, I can't remember when was the last time I saw red kayn. Is it just me or whats going on?
On October 30 2017 02:31 M2 wrote: Did I miss something about the blue kayn? Every game I see kayn lately, regardless if its in my games or on stream its always the blue kayn and I mean always, I can't remember when was the last time I saw red kayn. Is it just me or whats going on?
He's good in fiesta games, really high map mobility and ability to get picks in side lanes on people pushing by themselves. He's not as good as talon but hes passable. If he wasn't a jungler he would be trash tier, he's just lucky that he gets to skip the worst part of being a melee assassin by jungling.
See the GAM vs IMT game for what he can possibly accomplish in terms of pressure if you make the game a fiesta
is malphite just inferior to most of the other mega tanks? I've played several games with him and like all other tanks can do stuff when their ults are down, but malph has nothing without an ult and its not like he is tankier or doing more damage, although maybe its assumed that he does more damage due to his W, but I don't feel like you can apply the autoattacks so easily after your ult is down. Additionally, I am not convinced that Malph's ult is so much better than the other tanks ults and even in lane when you face another tank you cannot trade successfully, since, they can CC-you and disengage, not allowing you to autoattack them, which is supposed to be malph's stronger side. What do you guys think?
On October 30 2017 23:45 M2 wrote: is malphite just inferior to most of the other mega tanks? I've played several games with him and like all other tanks can do stuff when their ults are down, but malph has nothing without an ult and its not like he is tankier or doing more damage, although maybe its assumed that he does more damage due to his W, but I don't feel like you can apply the autoattacks so easily after your ult is down. Additionally, I am not convinced that Malph's ult is so much better than the other tanks ults and even in lane when you face another tank you cannot trade successfully, since, they can CC-you and disengage, not allowing you to autoattack them, which is supposed to be malph's stronger side. What do you guys think?
Malphite's a bit of an unusual tank in that he has very little CC in his kit, which is probably why he feels so bad without his ult. He's supposed to make up for it with the +30% armor and armor scaling damage on his abilities, but I'm not sure he really justifies himself except against almost all-AD comps.
All that being said, though, Malphite ultimate is always going to be one of the best abilities in the game in solo queue and/or lower elo. He needs a lot of stuff taken out of his kit in order to justify that ultimate, much like pre-rework Sejuani.
Malphite is great against comps where a large portion comes from auto-attacks (his E is bonkers) and need at least two of them being AD based. Iceborn combined with Q slow makes it pretty easy to get autos off if you stutterstep.
On October 30 2017 23:45 M2 wrote: is malphite just inferior to most of the other mega tanks? I've played several games with him and like all other tanks can do stuff when their ults are down, but malph has nothing without an ult and its not like he is tankier or doing more damage, although maybe its assumed that he does more damage due to his W, but I don't feel like you can apply the autoattacks so easily after your ult is down. Additionally, I am not convinced that Malph's ult is so much better than the other tanks ults and even in lane when you face another tank you cannot trade successfully, since, they can CC-you and disengage, not allowing you to autoattack them, which is supposed to be malph's stronger side. What do you guys think?
I don't even consider him a tank. He's just a beefy initiator.
If Malph's mana costs were reduced, I think he would actually see more play. Champions like Ornn and Fiora have very low mana costs in comparison. Malphite scales very well tbh, becomes extremely tanky when picked into the right comps and does surprising DPS damage for a tank, although it's been pointed out that Adaptive Helm and Stoneplate achieve similar immortality. Also he's become pretty obsolete in League of Mobility.
Because of his innate armor stats, Malphite actually makes for a good MR tank so long as the opponent doesn't have a hypercarry ADC.
In matchups vs melees you need to run AD/attackspeed. Also always max E in these matchups. And don't use Q earlygame. Both Shen and Ornn aren't the best matchups, but most of the other melees should be fine. Almost nobody playes ranged champions, in which case your best bet is to run ap/magicpen and try to cheese them with Q spam and snowball off of that. The only ranged champion this doesnt apply for is Gnar, but no Gnar under diamond 2 is good enough to harass malphite out of lane anyway.
Teamfighting can be a bit tricky, but the key thing to remember is that your DPS after the initial cooldowns have been used is much higher than most other tanks, so you gotta play around that. Try to get E on important targets (ADCs, bruisers) and try to land an impactful ult. It's fine if you gotta save your ult for a bit for that to happen, because it's soloq. You don't need to engage, since fights randomly break out all the time and the ult is better saved to really turn a fight like that around. The other team will fuck up and clump important people at some point, you just gotta wait for it.
Malphite i think just needs people to look at his item builds and stuff. free %armor means that he gets an increased benefit from items and doesnt need as much long term? When he was good randuins was really strong for the slow and stuff.
Like Bramble + tabis is ~85 bonus armor, or ~124 bonus armor with your shield up. and thats without runes or base stats and things. I think Malphite gets a lot stronger with new runes, that Aftershock thing is insane in theory even if he cant trigger it constantly. ultimate hat and the gathering storm secondaries do a lot for him with his high AP ratio and the extra 15% on his Ult is huge for him.
So you could potentially sit on like those two items and grab something else, like RG -> Warmogs or Adaptive+ Warmog or the locket/KV+ Gargoyle combo for something more support-y and tanky? maybe even zhonyas or some shit? i dont know. but he doesnt need more than like 100 armor from items to get as many stats as like maokai or any non-sejuani tank. even like RG +Zhonya + Tabi is gonna be ~137 Armor always and ~200 armo for your shield HP. an then just snag like Banshees/Abyssal and you have a lot more damage built in and a bunch of resists?
I feel like maybe we're leaning too into the armor boon rather than using it to re-itemize.
Or maybe the champ just sucks dick if your opponents aren't retarded? Your item ideas are wayyyy worse than the standard.
Now that censer is nerfed he isn't TOO bad but still. You just can't be that useless without your ult. If you just sit down and really compare him to other tanks you just realise that there is no reason to pick him other than all the others are banned or "I am playing vs dummies".
Malph is balanced poorly given all the dashes in the game. Assuming consistent 3+ man ults he would be balanced compared to other tanks. That is a terrible assumption even against a team of Ashe-Soraka-Ori-Cho-Amumu. Given modern champs, your lucky to hit 2.
It'd be neat to see if Malphite got some mini game like his ult CD is reduced by 10s for every enemy hit by it, to a minimum of 10 seconds (for ultimate hat) so if he manages a 5 man its a 10 second CD at max rank/cdr, or a 2 man one and its a 40 second CD (or 25 with ultimate hat).
I'd like to see him reworked so he is less... if the other team is all AD he is bullshit good, and otherwise he is just kind of meh? Like make him scale with both armor and MR, then balance him around that or something. Or remove his armor scaling totally and make his kit more powerful in other more healthy ways.
Although, apparently with the direction on Rammus, Riot kind of thinks the opposite of me, so what do I know.
On October 31 2017 14:38 dsyxelic wrote: malphite would be instantly playable if riot let you flash at the end of his ult to move the knockup kinda like jarvan eq combo
Please, not more mechanics that have 0 outplay. Rakan combo, J4 flash, Grag flash, so many of these combos become integral to their champions balance that they either become OP or get nerfed to the ground in every other aspect.
They should honestly just make all his abilities gain bonus damage from armor.
This I could live with. Gut his AP ratios in favour of lower mana costs and strong armor scaling, would fit well with his thematic. AP Malph is probably what is holding back mana and damage changes, because it's cancer to play against, at the very least Deathfire Grasp was removed from the game like 4 seasons ago. Those might also solve his weak laning phase. Being a lumbering rock with no real CC except for ult works out if he can 1vs1 most other melee champs, aka a juggernaut.
Welk, he can outduel most of them, since they all have to engage into him and both your E and W are pretty strong in that scenario. I also don't know where this myth that he's unplayable comes from, this patch is the first time in like a year where he's under 50% winrate. Most of the changes you guys are proposing would make him broken below Diamond 1. Personally I have 72% winrate over 74 games played with him in D4-D3, so I would welcome any buffs, but he really doesn't need them.
whenever malphite is meta game goes to shit and everyone is complaining, idk why anyone would want this champ to be strong hes basically maokai v0.5, has advantages in some areas but usually not worth picking over him
Is there a way to get rid of the missions window in the client, I couldn't careless about missions but everyday I have some messages blinking there which is pretty annoying. Its not a big deal if I cannot rid of those and knowing that Riot is not too keen on providing on/off options overall, most likely it will stay there forever, but if there is an option that I am missing please share:-)
On October 31 2017 21:09 M2 wrote: Is there a way to get rid of the missions window in the client, I couldn't careless about missions but everyday I have some messages blinking there which is pretty annoying. Its not a big deal if I cannot rid of those and knowing that Riot is not too keen on providing on/off options overall, most likely it will stay there forever, but if there is an option that I am missing please share:-)
ive only ever found a few uses for malphite, but they are very niche and important uses.
1. countered fiora even when she was meta super strong (sounds stupid on paper but try it, malphite dumpsters fiora after early game.) Very useful if they also pick ad jungler and your team needs an initiate. No other tank top can do this as far as im aware.
2. Fairs well against jayce for a tank. Your passive shield helps a lot vs his AA poke and he cant go melee vs you without eating a decent amount of damage.Same thing as fiora, once early game is over and his AA poke matters less and less, suddenly you are poking him down with Q and you can easily get on him/gank assist with ult. He is also very strong vs poke teams later which they naturally will be with a jayce top.
Would I pick him against any other champs top? Not really
On October 31 2017 09:30 cLutZ wrote: Malph is balanced poorly given all the dashes in the game. Assuming consistent 3+ man ults he would be balanced compared to other tanks. That is a terrible assumption even against a team of Ashe-Soraka-Ori-Cho-Amumu. Given modern champs, your lucky to hit 2.
I really don't think this is why he's weak. Sure, in a sandbox environment, you could probably consistently dodge Malphite ult. But in a real game, on Summoner's Rift, with an active teamfight ongoing or starting, I think extremely few players, even pros or high elo, are able to consistently dodge the Malphite ult if it isn't blatantly telegraphed. Alistar's combo is much slower and pros still get hit by it all the time.
On October 31 2017 22:58 VayneAuthority wrote: ive only ever found a few uses for malphite, but they are very niche and important uses.
1. countered fiora even when she was meta super strong (sounds stupid on paper but try it, malphite dumpsters fiora after early game.) Very useful if they also pick ad jungler and your team needs an initiate. No other tank top can do this as far as im aware.
2. Fairs well against jayce for a tank. Your passive shield helps a lot vs his AA poke and he cant go melee vs you without eating a decent amount of damage.Same thing as fiora, once early game is over and his AA poke matters less and less, suddenly you are poking him down with Q and you can easily get on him/gank assist with ult. He is also very strong vs poke teams later which they naturally will be with a jayce top.
Would I pick him against any other champs top? Not really
He also poops on pantheon unless Spartan can dumpster him before he builds and armor too. Its kind of on Spartans jungler imo. Once he gets glacial shroud the wave is just hard shoved so you can't roam, and you can't do anything to him either. Lol. Then malp just infinitely more useful come mid game.
On October 31 2017 09:30 cLutZ wrote: Malph is balanced poorly given all the dashes in the game. Assuming consistent 3+ man ults he would be balanced compared to other tanks. That is a terrible assumption even against a team of Ashe-Soraka-Ori-Cho-Amumu. Given modern champs, your lucky to hit 2.
I really don't think this is why he's weak. Sure, in a sandbox environment, you could probably consistently dodge Malphite ult. But in a real game, on Summoner's Rift, with an active teamfight ongoing or starting, I think extremely few players, even pros or high elo, are able to consistently dodge the Malphite ult if it isn't blatantly telegraphed. Alistar's combo is much slower and pros still get hit by it all the time.
Pro Alistars almost exclusively use Q>Flash when initiating. Sure as Malphite you can theoretically hold ult like Ryu is famous for on Orianna, but that is not the primary job of tanks. They want people who pull the trigger, because otherwise your Baron bait does nothing (or stopping it is impossible).
[B]On October 31 2017 23:26 GrandInquisitor wrote]
On October 31 2017 09:30 cLutZ wrote: Malph is balanced poorly given all the dashes in the game. Assuming consistent 3+ man ults he would be balanced compared to other tanks. That is a terrible assumption even against a team of Ashe-Soraka-Ori-Cho-Amumu. Given modern champs, your lucky to hit 2.
I really don't think this is why he's weak. Sure, in a sandbox environment, you could probably consistently dodge Malphite ult. But in a real game, on Summoner's Rift, with an active teamfight ongoing or starting, I think extremely few players, even pros or high elo, are able to consistently dodge the Malphite ult if it isn't blatantly telegraphed. Alistar's combo is much slower and pros still get hit by it all the time.
Pro Alistars almost exclusively use Q>Flash when initiating. Sure as Malphite you can theoretically hold ult like Ryu is famous for on Orianna, but that is not the primary job of tanks. They want people who pull the trigger, because otherwise your Baron bait does nothing (or stopping it is impossible).
Nah, I'd attribute it to the fact that they're probably down flash, and don't have the right mobility to escape Alistar combo (like Ez E is good for dodging, but Lucian dash is far more difficult). Alistars combo gets dodged/flashed quite a lot in competitive play, it's the threat of it that acts as a deterrent. That and the Q flash combo.
Malph is just one of those champs that is hard to balance because his kit is actually quite good, but lacks certain fundamentals that are basically a necessity for pro play. If he wasn't so mana gated he'd probably be the Master Yi of tanks, mowing down low level players with simple but effective mechanics.
[B]On October 31 2017 23:26 GrandInquisitor wrote]
On October 31 2017 09:30 cLutZ wrote: Malph is balanced poorly given all the dashes in the game. Assuming consistent 3+ man ults he would be balanced compared to other tanks. That is a terrible assumption even against a team of Ashe-Soraka-Ori-Cho-Amumu. Given modern champs, your lucky to hit 2.
I really don't think this is why he's weak. Sure, in a sandbox environment, you could probably consistently dodge Malphite ult. But in a real game, on Summoner's Rift, with an active teamfight ongoing or starting, I think extremely few players, even pros or high elo, are able to consistently dodge the Malphite ult if it isn't blatantly telegraphed. Alistar's combo is much slower and pros still get hit by it all the time.
Pro Alistars almost exclusively use Q>Flash when initiating. Sure as Malphite you can theoretically hold ult like Ryu is famous for on Orianna, but that is not the primary job of tanks. They want people who pull the trigger, because otherwise your Baron bait does nothing (or stopping it is impossible).
It's simply not the case that a tank must be good at initiating teamfights. Many of the most popular tanks right now (Cho'Gath, Maokai, Shen, Galio) are pretty ass at "pulling the trigger".
I agree with you obviously that Malphite's kit is built around initiating teamfights, and it sucks that his ult is theoretically dodgeable. But as a practical matter, the dodgeability of his ult is not what is keeping him out of the meta.
On October 31 2017 15:48 cLutZ wrote: I think that would improve him for sure, but I am not sure that he can even stay in lane against good players right now. His mana costs are crazy.
it's not that bad really.
tanks have easy access to mana these days and if you're spamming Q on malphite (the actual mana drain) you're playing him wrong.
I also have had a lot of success with malphite and pretty much win the vast majority of lanes. As VA said, fiora was a typical one which was pretty much freelo.
On October 31 2017 09:30 cLutZ wrote: Malph is balanced poorly given all the dashes in the game. Assuming consistent 3+ man ults he would be balanced compared to other tanks. That is a terrible assumption even against a team of Ashe-Soraka-Ori-Cho-Amumu. Given modern champs, your lucky to hit 2.
I really don't think this is why he's weak. Sure, in a sandbox environment, you could probably consistently dodge Malphite ult. But in a real game, on Summoner's Rift, with an active teamfight ongoing or starting, I think extremely few players, even pros or high elo, are able to consistently dodge the Malphite ult if it isn't blatantly telegraphed. Alistar's combo is much slower and pros still get hit by it all the time.
alistar W must be in closer range so if you let an alistar get that close, you probably weren't expecting him/have less time to dodge. Alistar w/q is pretty hard to dodge on reflex while malphite ult you absolutely can dodge on reflex (though most anticipate). I rarely ever get hit by malphite ults when playing a carry role unless its over a wall or something lol. Super easy to anticipate/dodge if you have vision.
Freelo lanes are Fiora, Yasuo, Riven no matter what, and Jax/Renek past level 8/second buy. This makes up like 80% of soloq toplaners, so he's pretty decent.
also done pretty well against j4 top.w/ him. Bramble is so strong on him right now.a lot of those matchups where they gotta smack you a bunch to get their trades right he does pretty well.
On November 01 2017 06:38 M2 wrote: since, ardent is kind of tamed now, do you guys think that MF support can be a viable pick again?
Can't say for certain, but I think MF support is a sitting duck for the likes of Rakan and Alistar, although the latter can be zoned. Also think Zyra is a better alternative.
I was on vacation and just got back to read the patch notes, but I'm surprised people thought the Udyr boasts were so lack luster. The pure stat boost to tiger Udyr is equivalent to a free pick axe by level 10, or a BF sword by level 18.
That's a lot of stats. Being a half item up on people is a big edge in fights.
On November 02 2017 23:26 General_Winter wrote: I was on vacation and just got back to read the patch notes, but I'm surprised people thought the Udyr boasts were so lack luster. The pure stat boost to tiger Udyr is equivalent to a free pick axe by level 10, or a BF sword by level 18.
That's a lot of stats. Being a half item up on people is a big edge in fights.
Of course none of this solves the problem of being Udyr.
On November 02 2017 23:26 General_Winter wrote: I was on vacation and just got back to read the patch notes, but I'm surprised people thought the Udyr boasts were so lack luster. The pure stat boost to tiger Udyr is equivalent to a free pick axe by level 10, or a BF sword by level 18.
That's a lot of stats. Being a half item up on people is a big edge in fights.
Of course none of this solves the problem of being Udyr.
This. Udyr already does quite a lot of damage, but has no real way to get in range to do exactly that.
pretty much, there's already way better champions at dueling 1v1 melee that do other things better too
like why be udyr when you can just be warwick/jax/shyvana/skarner/etc
warwick offers better teamfight and cc, jax offers extreme mobility/counters AAers, shyvana takes neutrals faster and has gapcloser thats unstoppable, skarner offers better cc/zone control
udyr's damage would need to be OBSCENE/the undisputed 1v1 king to even make him remotely viable but riot doesn't really like to do stuff like that with exceptions like fiora/vayne who are kept in check in other ways but skirt the edges of competitive play whenever they are given a little room to operate.
Maybe Udyr could be rebalanced if they eliminated his mana gating and made him CD-gated or energy-gated. Certainly would make for an interesting champ, like a pseudo-Singed.
On November 03 2017 05:06 GrandInquisitor wrote: Maybe Udyr could be rebalanced if they eliminated his mana gating and made him CD-gated or energy-gated. Certainly would make for an interesting champ, like a pseudo-Singed.
That's just skirting around his actual problem, which is that he's a relic from a time when LoL did not have as much mobility, and counter jungling defined the meta. I think the last time he was meta was in S2/3? Only person who ever played him between then and now was SKT T0m, and funnily enough he just retired.
Yea, Udyr was kinda the quintessential Diamondprox style pick, im and Alex would just go and bully people. Also great for early dragons. The change away from gold kinda killed his only real major leverage point in the game. He needs to be tankier to be relevant though right now so he can facetank at least as long as fully stacked Cho, probably longer because he doesn't have Flash-Feast.
On November 03 2017 05:06 GrandInquisitor wrote: Maybe Udyr could be rebalanced if they eliminated his mana gating and made him CD-gated or energy-gated. Certainly would make for an interesting champ, like a pseudo-Singed.
That's just skirting around his actual problem, which is that he's a relic from a time when LoL did not have as much mobility, and counter jungling defined the meta. I think the last time he was meta was in S2/3? Only person who ever played him between then and now was SKT T0m, and funnily enough he just retired.
Udyr was meta like a year or two ago for a few patches when runic echos gave 10% movespeed. Then he fell off the face of the planet again.
That was some confusing shit but looks really fun. I like a decent balance between batshit insane and simple yet deep design. We had Orn which is super simple but has some good shit he can do now this champ looks like she does a billion things.
The concept of picking up others' Flash is very clever. For all the hate CertainlyT gets I think his champions are probably among the most played in the game.
On November 03 2017 22:25 GrandInquisitor wrote: The concept of picking up others' Flash is very clever. For all the hate CertainlyT gets I think his champions are probably among the most played in the game.
They are very creative and interesting characters, they just don't fit the game's balance. He'd be better working at Valve making Dota, because pretty much all his champions have been staple meta picks and annihilate old champions. That flash orb collecting for example looks like it would dump on skill shot reliant champions, which make up like 75% of the champ pool.
Kalista is pretty broken but she'd be far more balanced if they just capped the rend damage to monsters. The fact that they refuse to do that is more on the balance team than his design. Thresh does a lot of stuff but honestly he just makes games more interesting. If he pushes out heroes I don't see the issue with that. Rest aren't really an issue. Yasuo is annoying but ultimately not great. Darius was broken but adjusting his numbers and a bit of his kit did work to make him fine.
So honestly think people overblown his character design issues. I think of a designer as someone pushing the concept to the max while the balance team needs to figure out the numbers and maybe slight adjustments to make them fit in the current game. Dota heroes tend to be more simple with depth in how they interact so not sure if it's fair to say his hero designs fit more in there. Both games can design similar ways if they want to. He may be better at dota design merely because the game has the ability to adjust it's control systems to actually do more interesting stuff. League's engine really stifles a lot of stuff. Which is a bit funny since some league devs seem to believe that what constitutes good design is what falls within the limitations they have forced themselves into and anything outside of that is bad design. Silly people.
ps: Earth Spirit is a freaking LoL hero man. Disgusting thing.
On November 03 2017 23:06 Numy wrote: Darius Thresh Zyra Yasuo Kalista
Kalista is pretty broken but she'd be far more balanced if they just capped the rend damage to monsters. The fact that they refuse to do that is more on the balance team than his design. Thresh does a lot of stuff but honestly he just makes games more interesting. If he pushes out heroes I don't see the issue with that. Rest aren't really an issue. Yasuo is annoying but ultimately not great. Darius was broken but adjusting his numbers and a bit of his kit did work to make him fine.
So honestly think people overblown his character design issues. I think of a designer as someone pushing the concept to the max while the balance team needs to figure out the numbers and maybe slight adjustments to make them fit in the current game. Dota heroes tend to be more simple with depth in how they interact so not sure if it's fair to say his hero designs fit more in there. Both games can design similar ways if they want to. He may be better at dota design merely because the game has the ability to adjust it's control systems to actually do more interesting stuff. League's engine really stifles a lot of stuff. Which is a bit funny since some league devs seem to believe that what constitutes good design is what falls within the limitations they have forced themselves into and anything outside of that is bad design. Silly people.
ps: Earth Spirit is a freaking LoL hero man. Disgusting thing.
I think this is something that people have said so much that it's just become a meme relying on itself for truth.
If he really designed bad champs, then they should be either 0% or close to 100% pick/ban in pro play. But it's obviously not the case . Yasuo was 38.5% pick/ban in Season 4 worlds. Zyra was 35% pick/ban last year. Thresh is currently 20% pick/ban.
I dont have a problem with any of his characters except darius, that is a legitimately bad design. Your whole team shouldn't suffer as a result of one of your idiot teammates running into darius with low health and giving him insta 5 stack resets in a teamfight. He's too oppressive against melees in general, especially with the new meta build darius mains are doing with fervor/PD. stacks his passive on you in seconds and does insane damage.
Again don't see the issue if Thresh is just 90% more interesting than most of the other supports. I'd have thresh perma over the bullshit that was Janna shield wars. They nuked most of his numbers but he still has his 4 core skills.
Darius is partly just league design issue as a whole. You can't make melee damage dealers work unless you give them a shitton of mobility. Darius is some kind of attempt to make an immobile melee damage dealer which just didn't quite come together. He's either oppressive or not great. Don't see anything wrong with him being good against melees since that's kind of his purpose. The whole reset thing is a bit silly though. Makes it even harder to make him balanced.
On November 03 2017 22:25 GrandInquisitor wrote: The concept of picking up others' Flash is very clever. For all the hate CertainlyT gets I think his champions are probably among the most played in the game.
They are very creative and interesting characters, they just don't fit the game's balance. He'd be better working at Valve making Dota, because pretty much all his champions have been staple meta picks and annihilate old champions. That flash orb collecting for example looks like it would dump on skill shot reliant champions, which make up like 75% of the champ pool.
It only dumps on skillshot reliant champions if other people around, and I'm assuming it's relegated to Zoe's enemies, use their Flash.
On November 03 2017 23:19 Alaric wrote: They had to nuke every single skill on Thresh's kit to make him not better than pretty much anyone else save for super specific scenarios.
^ This is my problem with CertainlyT champions, they get released with pretty busted mechanics. Again, I am not denying his champions are fun and interactive, I just don't like the way they push 50% of the champions pool out of reasonable pro/high elo competition. They also almost all have some bs mechanics to them:
-Kalista's whole kit lulz, she's god tier at Worlds for a reason.
-Zed ult has seen numerous nerfs to it. His shadows in general used to be quite toxic, although I think he is balanced decently right now, just not a meta champ.
- Zyra was just bonkers when they released her, I remember trying her out in mid and dumpstering a Lux. The plant range nerfs and other tweaks moved her to the bot lane, where the introduction of Spell Thiefs made her a solid pick. She is still an extremely strong support in the right hands, and shuts down low mobility melee champs super hard.
- Yasuo has one of the dumbest abilities in the game, his Windwall. It's a mechanics that revolves solely around the skill of the Yasuo, and has no counterplay for his opponent when used flawlessly. Back in the day, Dade was showing us just how ridiculous the champ could be. Add in his E and Yasuo is only being held back in the pro meta because they can play around him as a team. Individually though, Yasuo can beat most champions in lane, and all those OTP mains I see on high elo streams support that.
- Darius post-juggernaut is not a good example, all those reworks were a failure. As it stands, Darius is top tier in 3vs3 because when he gets a kill reset he dominates small skirmishes, but on Summoner's Rift he is just a low elo destroyer.
- Thresh defined the support meta for like 3 seasons. He's the Lee Sin of supports, Riot would hit him down with nerfs but he'd keep getting back up. His kit is still extremely strong on paper, it's just the Ardent meta left him totally out. I expect the tank support meta will also exclude him, but that's only because the next best option is still Ardent despite the nerfs.
Again don't see the issue if Thresh is just 90% more interesting than most of the other supports. I'd have thresh perma over the bullshit that was Janna shield wars. They nuked most of his numbers but he still has his 4 core skills.
I realize that our whole arguments are built on different premises, but did you really enjoy seeing Thresh every single game? Back when his numbers were a lot better, he was preventing people from even playing the likes of Janna because with one hook he could practically kill her, he would zone lanes harder than Leona because he had the leisure of choosing when to go in. And his single champion peel was/still is incredibly strong, it just isn't instant shielding like Janna/Lulu. Now he does pretty little damage, and his all in is almost non existant in tank support matchups like Ali or Taric, they just turn around and kill him when he goes in.
@Darkcore - A lot of what you say I do agree with it's just that I'm not sure if the blame for that shouldn't be shifted to the balance team over the design guy. Often you want someone pushing crazy ideas but then another part of the team being the more reasonable shifting those ideas to a more manageable level. This should have happened from the start or more quickly with most of his heroes
@Kongoline - The whole fun to play vs unfair/unfun to play against is so weird. It's not a strict line but instead moves depending on the individual playing. Losing to something isn't fun for most people. Ultimately I feel it's more enjoyable if everyone is able to do "unfair" stuff to each other. You don't see heroes being played that aren't "unfair" in some regard. It's just an alternate way of looking at it. Instead of trying to make the negative experiences lesser, make it so there's more room for them to experience the positives. I'd rather them keep trying to make fun and interesting experiences to play at the cost of possibly meaning a % of the player base find it unfun to play against. You can't please everyone, trying to just makes a bland unfun experience.
edit: I'm not saying some of his stuff hasn't been crazy over the top. Just that I enjoy the effort and think it's good to keep pushing cool stuff like he does. He needs someone being the more reasonable voice along with the balance team being faster to bring them to more reasonable levels.
I mean, for all the meming, the game is clearly better with Thresh, Yasuo, and Darius. Even the saltiest Redditor would agree that deleting them would be an awful move. Those are some of the most iconic champions in the game. Thresh alone single-handedly redefined the support position. You want designers like that, not someone that cranks out five more Nunu variants.
Shut up give me a champion with point and click poke, shield and a dash. Making champions with multi-purpose spells and combos? Champions whose kits force the oponnent to adapt and play to their weaknesses? Blasphemy!
I would be perfectly fine with deleting darius from the game if they don't change how his current reset mechanic works. Just because one of my carries positioned terribly shouldn't mean he gets to start hitting all melees suddenly for a billion true damage. I honestly can't think of a worse designed spell in the game. The only way it would be acceptable is if he had a vayne level laning phase but his laning is great/oppressive at times so yea.
I love CertainlyT's champions, they all have unique and rewarding abilities. I actually like Darius' reset mechanic, if you allow a juggernaut to do their thing then they should do their thing - tear shit apart.
Xypherous' champions on the other hand are all besides Orianna a pile of cancerous rage inducing bullshit.
On November 03 2017 23:06 Numy wrote: Darius Thresh Zyra Yasuo Kalista
Zyra is his best, I think the balance team has done her pretty well.
Thresh is the next best, and my only problem with him is since every skill is so powerful they chose to make him feel pretty weak. I'd have preferred if they made a small tweak to lantern instead: A) Let enemies take the lantern; or B) If an enemy clicks the lantern first it fizzles. A) Would obviously be my preference.
Darius is IMO lame, but fine. A champion that the balance team needs to keep its eye on and nerf whenever needed. Actually think his release design was better than the rework, so thats not on him.
Yasuo, for me, is a big no. Windwall is super dumb, it should have a cast time like Gragas barrel. His passive shield is dumb. The defense I'd have for Yasuo is, if you keep him really nerfed, he can occasionally pop up in pro games as a counterpick and that is kinda hype. Meta Yasuo is terrible for the game though, just like meta Kalista, which I don't think needs discussion.
On November 04 2017 05:03 Jek wrote: I love CertainlyT's champions, they all have unique and rewarding abilities. I actually like Darius' reset mechanic, if you allow a juggernaut to do their thing then they should do their thing - tear shit apart.
Xypherous' champions on the other hand are all besides Orianna a pile of cancerous rage inducing bullshit.
Which champions did he make? Legit curious, I've never heard of the guy.
I realize that our whole arguments are built on different premises, but did you really enjoy seeing Thresh every single game? Back when his numbers were a lot better, he was preventing people from even playing the likes of Janna because with one hook he could practically kill her, he would zone lanes harder than Leona because he had the leisure of choosing when to go in. And his single champion peel was/still is incredibly strong, it just isn't instant shielding like Janna/Lulu. Now he does pretty little damage, and his all in is almost non existant in tank support matchups like Ali or Taric, they just turn around and kill him when he goes in.
yes. Good threshes won games. bad threshes were embarrassing. Skill determinant supports are good for the game. full stop. Stuff like Rakan, Thresh, Pre nerf and rework Alistar (when it was tougher to combo, and he could auto post headbutt), pre rework zyra, Tahm Kench. should be the norm for supports. the champs should be stronger than other roles, to make up for not having items all the time. But now that supports get free gold, they have to be dumbed down and weaker so they dont take over.
I think they hit on a really good stat for scaling for supports with current Items with Athenes' %mana regen scaling.
Should release champs with % mana regen damage or cc or whatever scaling instead of AP on some skills, gives them the ability to beef up the base stats or usability of those spells without making an accidental laner, by making those abilities pretty much only scale with dorans or support items.
since they are gonna ham fist a support anyway, they might as well ham first it in a way they dont have to keep them artificially weak in order to put them in support.
Stuff like ally bouncing from nami, or %mana regen scaling or leona passive are good ways to force a dual laner without just nerfing the champ until its just the only place they can go reliably (zyra, morgana).
I realize that our whole arguments are built on different premises, but did you really enjoy seeing Thresh every single game? Back when his numbers were a lot better, he was preventing people from even playing the likes of Janna because with one hook he could practically kill her, he would zone lanes harder than Leona because he had the leisure of choosing when to go in. And his single champion peel was/still is incredibly strong, it just isn't instant shielding like Janna/Lulu. Now he does pretty little damage, and his all in is almost non existant in tank support matchups like Ali or Taric, they just turn around and kill him when he goes in.
yes. Good threshes won games. bad threshes were embarrassing. Skill determinant supports are good for the game. full stop. Stuff like Rakan, Thresh, Pre nerf and rework Alistar (when it was tougher to combo, and he could auto post headbutt), pre rework zyra, Tahm Kench. should be the norm for supports. the champs should be stronger than other roles, to make up for not having items all the time. But now that supports get free gold, they have to be dumbed down and weaker so they dont take over.
I agree with that sentiment, skill based supports are the best meta, watching the Mata playmakers clobber the enemy team is fun. My point was just that there was a time where Thresh wasn't just a skill champion, but pretty much defined the entire support meta, because a good Thresh had the possibility of winning the lane and the game with good play, and his kit was just so much better than everyone else.
Also don't think supports weren't swimming in gold before the Ardent meta, people weren't running Targons on ADC and gp5 runes to rush the damn item because they needed real stats to win the lane. Maybe they should remove Coin and replace it with another gold generating item, the other two seem to be pretty balanced right now.
I dont mind a support being so far above the others. if its a playmaker.
Thresh being perma pick/ban is fine. people will just pick/ban it. and if you know its a playmaking support, then you know the type of play you gotta put in lane to fight against it. disengage or tankiness or both etc.
Its safe to assume we aren't getting any more world's quests and the best thing to do is convert worlds tokens to BE now to maximize how much we get in the preseason
On November 04 2017 08:30 Slusher wrote: Remember when red pot thresh was a threat to 1v1 any poor soul who got hooked leve 1 (empowered auto was on q at release)
remember all HP pot katarina? and then red pot everyone? lol
On November 04 2017 05:03 Jek wrote: I love CertainlyT's champions, they all have unique and rewarding abilities. I actually like Darius' reset mechanic, if you allow a juggernaut to do their thing then they should do their thing - tear shit apart.
Xypherous' champions on the other hand are all besides Orianna a pile of cancerous rage inducing bullshit.
Which champions did he make? Legit curious, I've never heard of the guy.
Fizz, Riven, Lulu, Renekton and Heimerdinger basically nothing but champions that when you lane against them make you go fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.
On November 04 2017 05:03 Jek wrote: I love CertainlyT's champions, they all have unique and rewarding abilities. I actually like Darius' reset mechanic, if you allow a juggernaut to do their thing then they should do their thing - tear shit apart.
Xypherous' champions on the other hand are all besides Orianna a pile of cancerous rage inducing bullshit.
Which champions did he make? Legit curious, I've never heard of the guy.
Fizz, Riven, Lulu, Renekton and Heimerdinger basically nothing but champions that when you lane against them make you go fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.
Orianna is an outlier that doesn't count.
you forget Nautilus,
and yeah orianna was the only one. but orianna is in that spot where if shes a little better shes so oppressive shes must pick.
Don't forget Xyph was also the mid lane main that did the S4 Vision/support overhaul that was designed to let people play more support when filling and still play mages.
I also saw something about spacebar skipping animations, though never tried it. I've constantly kept my IP low by having periods of not playing at all and buying too many runes. I've getting over 40k back just from runes.
Any quick way to see how much you're going to get back from runes and pages? Got all runes and max runepages bought with IP calculating by hand is going to be ehhhhh given the random price for different runes.
On November 05 2017 02:48 Jek wrote: Any quick way to see how much you're going to get back from runes and pages? Got all runes and max runepages bought with IP calculating by hand is going to be ehhhhh given the random price for different runes.
Prices of runes doesn't matter. It's 100BE/minor rune and 300BE/quint. I believe pages through IP was 1500BE/page.
On November 05 2017 02:48 Jek wrote: Any quick way to see how much you're going to get back from runes and pages? Got all runes and max runepages bought with IP calculating by hand is going to be ehhhhh given the random price for different runes.
stupid question here, but is rift considered as a minion? meaning that when he is the only one under enemy's turret the team will get the reduced armor/mr stats? or not?
On November 07 2017 01:45 JimmiC wrote: Well that took forever, but now I have 52k blue essence. Not sure what that does but from what your telling me I'm ahead so thank you.
It's gonna turn into 338k BE when the preseason hits, which I believe is tomorrow.
Do you have like 35 rune pages and all champions? I just stopped buying champions at some point. There is no way I'll ever want to play more than 3 Ivern or Kled games a month, so spending IP on them would be a waste.
On November 07 2017 03:14 Sent. wrote: Do you have like 35 rune pages and all champions? I just stopped buying champions at some point. There is no way I'll ever want to play more than 3 Ivern or Kled games a month, so spending IP on them would be a waste.
Nah, I just play very few games. But I am indeed still in the fase of building up my champion pool. Switching roles also doesn't really help.
oh my head hurts, I never paid any attention to these changes until now, but very soon I will have to go over all that shit and I am really not in a mood :-(
EPT
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