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On September 04 2017 12:33 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 12:24 chipmonklord17 wrote:On September 04 2017 11:58 Gahlo wrote:On September 04 2017 08:44 Redox wrote:On September 04 2017 05:56 JimmiC wrote:
All could be true. You are just not in a good negotiating position when now NA has 4x the viewers. It would be like the NHL complaining that the NFL has a better T.V. Deal. Dude come one I get where you are coming from but going from a nonsense number to an even more absurd one is not a way to discuss. The numbers on reddit from the bot that counts the overall viewers: EU final: 358k NA final: 408k That is 14% more for NA not 300%. Difference on 3rd place match was even smaller. Maybe it is sometimes different idk but never was twice as much for NA let alone 4 times lol. Should also be noted that it is a downward trend overall. Lastly, people are way overestimating the role of viewers since teams are not directly profiting from them. The money is coming from rather irrational investors who we can not really expect to ever see an adequate return. And in NA there are apparently way more investors ready to make a huge leap of faith and burn some money. It is the vc culture at work. Finals is a bad judge of league popularity though. There's more people willing to watch TL games than NiP games. Comparing TL and NiP isn't a fair fight. TL is one of the most popular Esports brand in existence and NiP is pretty much a CS org as far as I know. Also the fact that NiP was a bunch of literal whos being the punching bag of LCS for 10 weeks where TL has some established members and put up fights randomly. A much better comparison would be something like Mysterious Monkeys to P1 viewership wise But even then, there's some hype about P1 because people know Arrow is good and they want to see if Mike is gonna pop off or not.
That's probably the closest you're gonna get though because both orgs are on a roughly even level when it comes to notoriety.
Although it does seem like EU is stuck in a catch 22 where half the brands no one cares about, and no one cares about them so they get no exposure. I legit forgot Vitality was a team until the EU retrospective after the finals and I follow League every day. This problem doesn't really exist in NA because even the orgs that are doing the worst (EF/P1/TL) have reasons to be interested in them, and the ones that are good get noticed just for being good. Does anyone on here have MM flair?
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On September 04 2017 15:36 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 12:33 Gahlo wrote:On September 04 2017 12:24 chipmonklord17 wrote:On September 04 2017 11:58 Gahlo wrote:On September 04 2017 08:44 Redox wrote:On September 04 2017 05:56 JimmiC wrote:
All could be true. You are just not in a good negotiating position when now NA has 4x the viewers. It would be like the NHL complaining that the NFL has a better T.V. Deal. Dude come one I get where you are coming from but going from a nonsense number to an even more absurd one is not a way to discuss. The numbers on reddit from the bot that counts the overall viewers: EU final: 358k NA final: 408k That is 14% more for NA not 300%. Difference on 3rd place match was even smaller. Maybe it is sometimes different idk but never was twice as much for NA let alone 4 times lol. Should also be noted that it is a downward trend overall. Lastly, people are way overestimating the role of viewers since teams are not directly profiting from them. The money is coming from rather irrational investors who we can not really expect to ever see an adequate return. And in NA there are apparently way more investors ready to make a huge leap of faith and burn some money. It is the vc culture at work. Finals is a bad judge of league popularity though. There's more people willing to watch TL games than NiP games. Comparing TL and NiP isn't a fair fight. TL is one of the most popular Esports brand in existence and NiP is pretty much a CS org as far as I know. Also the fact that NiP was a bunch of literal whos being the punching bag of LCS for 10 weeks where TL has some established members and put up fights randomly. A much better comparison would be something like Mysterious Monkeys to P1 viewership wise But even then, there's some hype about P1 because people know Arrow is good and they want to see if Mike is gonna pop off or not. That's probably the closest you're gonna get though because both orgs are on a roughly even level when it comes to notoriety. Although it does seem like EU is stuck in a catch 22 where half the brands no one cares about, and no one cares about them so they get no exposure. I legit forgot Vitality was a team until the EU retrospective after the finals and I follow League every day. This problem doesn't really exist in NA because even the orgs that are doing the worst (EF/P1/TL) have reasons to be interested in them, and the ones that are good get noticed just for being good. Does anyone on here have MM flair?
I find it strange that the NA scene is so much bigger than the EU, despite the player base being heavily skewed to the combination of EUW and EUNE. I would not solely blame orgs not building up their fan bases in EU, but also because Riot has always seemed to invest more money and effort into NA, and over the years this has created a vastly inferior region infrastructure wise.
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On September 04 2017 18:41 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 15:36 chipmonklord17 wrote:On September 04 2017 12:33 Gahlo wrote:On September 04 2017 12:24 chipmonklord17 wrote:On September 04 2017 11:58 Gahlo wrote:On September 04 2017 08:44 Redox wrote:On September 04 2017 05:56 JimmiC wrote:
All could be true. You are just not in a good negotiating position when now NA has 4x the viewers. It would be like the NHL complaining that the NFL has a better T.V. Deal. Dude come one I get where you are coming from but going from a nonsense number to an even more absurd one is not a way to discuss. The numbers on reddit from the bot that counts the overall viewers: EU final: 358k NA final: 408k That is 14% more for NA not 300%. Difference on 3rd place match was even smaller. Maybe it is sometimes different idk but never was twice as much for NA let alone 4 times lol. Should also be noted that it is a downward trend overall. Lastly, people are way overestimating the role of viewers since teams are not directly profiting from them. The money is coming from rather irrational investors who we can not really expect to ever see an adequate return. And in NA there are apparently way more investors ready to make a huge leap of faith and burn some money. It is the vc culture at work. Finals is a bad judge of league popularity though. There's more people willing to watch TL games than NiP games. Comparing TL and NiP isn't a fair fight. TL is one of the most popular Esports brand in existence and NiP is pretty much a CS org as far as I know. Also the fact that NiP was a bunch of literal whos being the punching bag of LCS for 10 weeks where TL has some established members and put up fights randomly. A much better comparison would be something like Mysterious Monkeys to P1 viewership wise But even then, there's some hype about P1 because people know Arrow is good and they want to see if Mike is gonna pop off or not. That's probably the closest you're gonna get though because both orgs are on a roughly even level when it comes to notoriety. Although it does seem like EU is stuck in a catch 22 where half the brands no one cares about, and no one cares about them so they get no exposure. I legit forgot Vitality was a team until the EU retrospective after the finals and I follow League every day. This problem doesn't really exist in NA because even the orgs that are doing the worst (EF/P1/TL) have reasons to be interested in them, and the ones that are good get noticed just for being good. Does anyone on here have MM flair? I find it strange that the NA scene is so much bigger than the EU, despite the player base being heavily skewed to the combination of EUW and EUNE. I would not solely blame orgs not building up their fan bases in EU, but also because Riot has always seemed to invest more money and effort into NA, and over the years this has created a vastly inferior region infrastructure wise.
Some of it is just the nature of the NA market. It's a homogeneous market that generally cares a lot more about personality then about results. NA having more money in League isn't an outlier. It happened in CSGO too where NA players were getting salaries higher than EU players even though NA does jack all in CSGO.
You also tend to see a lot more angel investing going on in NA. It's no coincidence that you get a whole slew of basketball investors coming in. They follow fads in packs. Someone got into the circle and did a pitch to sell LCS which gained enough traction to get some guys interested and once you have a few the others dive in because they don't want to be left behind. If the opportunity doesn't work then they just move on.
Lastly Riot pushed out the endemic orgs from league. When you look at CSGO/Dota etc. you get teams that have built up fandom for 10+ years throughout other titles as well as the primary title. EG is still has a huge fanbase while from yesteryear. The CIS scene that is a big backbone of European rivalry was completely ignored for most of league history. Even when you look at NA it's not like these new teams have that many fans, it's the old guard who built up their fandom that have the fans. EU lost most of those teams. Riot created an environment where it just made no sense to be in league if you wanted to build a sustainable brand.
Can you imagine what EU LCS would look like if we still had the likes of Alliance, Fnatic, SK, G2, VP, Gambit, Navi, NiP etc. Tell me then that there wouldn't be fandom.
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But EU LCS not having VP/Gambit/Navi isn't a fault on Riots end but the issue with getting a visa to work in Germany from Russia no? I agree that that would be more hype but isn't the appeal of all 3 squads their CIS players? Were they supposed to stay as orgs but pick up random EU teams, defeating their 'purpose' as organizations?
I agree with fault where fault is, like kicking EG/Alliance out, but blaming Riot for VP/Gambit/Navi leaving EU LCS isn't fair. Especially when all 3 have teams in the LCL, hell Gambit will be at worlds.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The reason EULCS has struggled recently is pretty simple. Take any of the top NA teams and you can come up with a one-sentence story about them. TSM is the tale of Bjergsen and the 4 wards. CLG is the team defined by the shadow of their greatest player leaving for their greatest rival. C9 is about Jensen and his struggles to live up to Hai, who carried the team to Worlds, and Bjergsen, to whom he's always compared but always falls short. Heck even DIG is the team known for their baron throws.
Meanwhile UOL is the crazy wacky team, except they aren't any more. G2 is the boring win team. And that's about it. There's no character to EU teams. Nothing remotely interesting about them. They have no personality and no story. G2 being villains is the closest we have for now, but their continued faceplanting on the international stage makes it really hard to write a dominant villain storyline.
So ... I'm surprised no one has said this, but h2k said they lost $2.5m total thus far, but said that this was not counting their brand value or sponsorship revenue.
Am I missing something, or is that like 99% of the other side of the balance sheet? Like I don't doubt that you are having issues, but it is kind of bullshit to claim that your LCS team is sustaining massive losses while ignoring the most valuable parts of your LCS team.
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Does H2k have a lot in the way of sponsorship? I looked through their website and it seems pretty lacking.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Well it's also strange since LCS teams essentially trading profits now for building brand and profits later. Raw number is a pretty terrible way to express the situation. If they didn't want to get into this arms race they should have focused on titles that are more profitable surely?
Anyway we could discuss H2K stuff for days, end of the day it's them doing the same shady shit NA LCS guys did earlier. Trying to force public opinion on their side to cover up their business model and achieve their goals. Man when did I land up on Riots side. At least I still despise what they did the with scene regardless lol
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Called it!
Tying teams to locales, as antiquated as it sounds, is an effective way to build team loyalty and fandom. Look at how crazy the NA/EU rivalry is, for no real reason aside from nationalism. We are inherently loyal to certain things. It's why college football is so insanely popular.
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Dunno if it is good for the EU scene overall but I like it as a viewer because it offers me more choices. If I only want to watch the top games I can only watch the "champions league" and if I have more time and want to watch more stuff I can watch something from the lower leagues.
Also this offers the possibility for lower teams (former challenger teams) to gain experience by playing the top teams and gives them more exposure. So the former challenger scene actually profits the most from this.
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I always loved how esports transcended boundaries and wasn't locked to your little region. The way things are moving it seems my kind of thinking is outdated.
I don't know if having more teams would be better, I do hope they manage to get CIS more linked in to the rest of Europe. Those rivalries always boosted so much in other games.
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I don't think this will end up well. That's adding another 14/6 teams to the whole thing.
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On September 06 2017 06:43 Numy wrote:
I always loved how esports transcended boundaries and wasn't locked to your little region. The way things are moving it seems my kind of thinking is outdated.
Yeah both this and Overwatch League seem to want me to cheer for teams because they're based in London and it's just annoying, if anything I'm going to root against them.
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The supposed structure of OWL is just shit for brains level stupidity in general.
League probably needs this to make sponsors work well in Europe.
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On September 06 2017 06:45 Gahlo wrote:
The supposed structure of OWL is just shit for brains level stupidity in general.
League probably needs this to make sponsors work well in Europe.
Yeah I think part of the point is for example that a German sponsor wants their German team to be watched by a German audience. They dont care about those other viewers because they are not their customers.
Basically, because sponsors are often region/country-specific they want the same for teams.
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There not being a Nordic mini league seems kind of odd to me given how many LCS players are from there.
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Poland and scandinavian penisula btfo
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On September 06 2017 06:51 Ansibled wrote:
There not being a Nordic mini league seems kind of odd to me given how many LCS players are from there.
Reading through responses on Reddit, somebody said the placements make sense. Berlin is where they already are. Paris and Barcelona have been places they've gone to recently. London is a shit ton of money.
Would Nodric countries have the financial backing to support a league?(honestly, I've got no clue)
24 teams is stretching it pretty far as it is, who wants to go to 30?
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On September 06 2017 06:51 Ansibled wrote:
There not being a Nordic mini league seems kind of odd to me given how many LCS players are from there.
Another indicator that this is about sponsors / purchasing power. I agree it sucks for the nordics and the east.
Though I can imagine if you put for example a Polish team in the German region that would get the Polish to watch for rivalry reasons. :D
Although the chat might become even more retarded than it already is with the EU vs NA thing, as hard as that is to imagine.
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On September 06 2017 07:01 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 06:51 Ansibled wrote:
There not being a Nordic mini league seems kind of odd to me given how many LCS players are from there. Reading through responses on Reddit, somebody said the placements make sense. Berlin is where they already are. Paris and Barcelona have been places they've gone to recently. London is a shit ton of money. Would Nodric countries have the financial backing to support a league?(honestly, I've got no clue) 24 teams is stretching it pretty far as it is, who wants to go to 30?
Well you have a decent amount of Nordic teams in CounterStrike.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/f05559b918077f3aecacc7fcb69b7bd0.jpg)
