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EsportsWikis:
2017 Esports General Discussion
| Forum Index > LoL General |
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
Off-Season Off-season roster moves News Links Resources EsportsWikis: | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
Can't wait to see community reactions after Pulse-Froskurinn duo cast | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
1) dignitas 2) tsm 3) tl 4) c9 5) clg 6) immortals 7) phoenix1 8) envy 9) echo fox 10) flyquest | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
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Phailol
United States84 Posts
Watch announced his retirement today :C Also, I never knew that he was a Brood War pro. Was on OGN/hite Sparkyz, with his only televised win being vs Bisu strangely enough | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On January 27 2017 15:11 Zess wrote: 10 bans in competitive has worked out really well. We've seen champion diversity go up by a lot (amusingly red side only has 4 bans because Camille is so broken though). It is more like Red has to ban Camille, Rengar, Leblanc every game so they have 2 left. Thankfully the new p/b exists otherwise current meta would suck. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On January 27 2017 20:34 Redox wrote: More champs are op right now than those though. Could also argue Maokai, Ryze, Khazix, Syndra, Malzahar for example. Riot balancing team still has a lot of work to do. Of those you listed, I'd only consider Ryze remotely OP | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Interesting interview with Froggen. Sounds like old boys club is stronger than ever. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
Also makes me think that the conflict between Riot and NA teams regarding franchising is still going on. We have surely not heard the last of that. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On February 02 2017 07:06 Sent. wrote: Is scrimming with Brazilian teams a viable (temporary) solution? I doubt it is possible because of ping, also skill difference too high. EF have a second team in challenger though and they could also scrim other challenger teams. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On February 02 2017 07:27 Slusher wrote: i was under the impression teams who had signed this letter had openly said they wouldn't scrim teams who didn't. I guess that was an unconfirmed rumor? Idk what to say I had been under the assumption this was known after the Adrain incident. Idk I never heard that. Imo it would not be the smartest thing to say because it cheapens the letter as you dont know who signed because they believe in the content or because they did not want to lose scrims. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
granted this requires good analysts to go through vods and whatnot of others and the ability to apply that into your in house scrims. | ||
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Skitter
United States899 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
The issue with comparing gaming to sports is that generally athletes have been playing said sport for most of their lives. The very basics are already ingrained through decades of play. Gaming doesn't last long enough to have that kind of thing. We only really see it in games like CS at this point. Sports also tend have more predictable play patterns that teams and players can go over throughout the game. Sure the small things change but the overall strategy isn't something that can radically change match to match. Games like League and Dota have so many elements to them that each game can be drastically different to the next. Anyway I'm not saying more controlled "drill" type practice is bad, merely it's wrong to just compare directly. I'll be interested to see how gaming practices change over the decades to come. I know in games like CS they do "drill" type sessions where they just execute the exact same strategy for all 15 rounds then review how it went afterwards. They also do stuff like grenade/smoke/flashbang practicing. Dota guys do mid practice as well(or at least used to idk anymore) where it was just mid laners playing each other to test out matchups. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Akaadian has been looking really good. Kinda reminds me a little of Meteos when C9 first arrived. Knows where he needs to be to secure kills early and is actually a threat from the Jungle position. I think he has a very good chance at Rookie of the Split. l0l Keith, hopefully EF can find a serviceable ADC if they want to make a run for Worlds. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On February 03 2017 22:59 Ansibled wrote: EFX doesn't get scrims because they tried to poach everyone's players with Riot's encouragement, other LCS teams are understandably bitter. Is there actually proof that that is why, or is this just the reasoning reddit made up? | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On February 03 2017 23:07 Gahlo wrote: Is there actually proof that that is why, or is this just the reasoning reddit made up? I don't know how much proof there is, but this is what happened. There is an article on it if that helps. http://www.thescoreesports.com/lol/news/11935-sources-echo-fox-tried-to-poach-adrian-from-phoenix1 | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On February 03 2017 23:11 Ansibled wrote: I don't know how much proof there is, but this is what happened. There is an article on it if that helps. http://www.thescoreesports.com/lol/news/11935-sources-echo-fox-tried-to-poach-adrian-from-phoenix1 I'm not questioning the alleged poaching, but the assertion that that is why they aren't getting scrims. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On February 03 2017 23:17 Gahlo wrote: I'm not questioning the alleged poaching, but the assertion that that is why they aren't getting scrims. Do you want me to point out the speciifc line in the article that claims that or what? | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 03 2017 22:59 Ansibled wrote: EFX doesn't get scrims because they tried to poach everyone's players with Riot's encouragement, other LCS teams are understandably bitter. Do you have a source for the "Riot's encouragement" part, since my understanding was that EF's conduct was subsequently cleared by Riot, not that it was cleared in advance by Riot? Also, it's hard to have sympathy for P1 here because the rules pretty clearly say it ain't poaching until you submit the contract to the database. Public announcements don't mean a whole lot - IMT tweeted out pictures of IMT Piccaboo and IMT Gorilla jerseys too. EF's conduct was kinda skeevy, but the rules are the rules, and it's hard to believe an organization like CLG is really all that concerned about poaching rules. It's basically as if EF hit on a woman that he had heard got married, but the woman didn't have a ring on and there wasn't a wedding license in the office. Really, though, the justification for boycotting EF scrims is suuuuper thin. Like, CLG unquestionably poached Darshan, got a slap on the wrist by Riot, but they still get scrims, no? What is the more likely possibility? That for the first time in NA LCS history, teams suddenly SUPER care about enforcing poaching rules, despite having been past poachers themselves, or that they are all annoyed at the one team that did not sign the franchising letter? | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On February 03 2017 23:33 GrandInquisitor wrote: Do you have a source for the "Riot's encouragement" part, since my understanding was that EF's conduct was subsequently cleared by Riot, not that it was cleared in advance by Riot? Also, it's hard to have sympathy for P1 here because the rules pretty clearly say it ain't poaching until you submit the contract to the database. Public announcements don't mean a whole lot - IMT tweeted out pictures of IMT Piccaboo and IMT Gorilla jerseys too. EF's conduct was kinda skeevy, but the rules are the rules, and it's hard to believe an organization like CLG is really all that concerned about poaching rules. It's basically as if EF hit on a woman that he had heard got married, but the woman didn't have a ring on and there wasn't a wedding license in the office. Really, though, the justification for boycotting EF scrims is suuuuper thin. Like, CLG unquestionably poached Darshan, got a slap on the wrist by Riot, but they still get scrims, no? What is the more likely possibility? That for the first time in NA LCS history, teams suddenly SUPER care about enforcing poaching rules, despite having been past poachers themselves, or that they are all annoyed at the one team that did not sign the franchising letter? http://esportsobserver.com/sources-na-lcs-teams-sign-riots-2017-lcs-agreement-under-threats-of-league-approved-poaching-and-sale-cancellation/ CLG really isn't a good org, but that was also 2 years ago. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 03 2017 23:40 Ansibled wrote: http://esportsobserver.com/sources-na-lcs-teams-sign-riots-2017-lcs-agreement-under-threats-of-league-approved-poaching-and-sale-cancellation/ CLG really isn't a good org, but that was also 2 years ago. Thanks. But that article doesn't make much sense. It's saying that Riot threatened to deny non-signing teams LCS poaching protection and the right to sell their LCS spot. But ... if you aren't in LCS, why would you be protected by LCS poaching rules? How would you have an LCS spot to sell? It's kind of illogical. It's like a tenant accusing his landlord of saying, "If you don't renew your lease, I won't let you sublet it." It sounds like something someone pretty dumb made up for attention. That, plus the fact that no one has subsequently come back with proof of this conversation after Riot flat denied it, makes me believe that the article is just a salty owner. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On February 03 2017 22:59 Ansibled wrote: EFX doesn't get scrims because they tried to poach everyone's players with Riot's encouragement, other LCS teams are understandably bitter. You are taking the orgs word for fact here, I dont see a reason for that. Actually you even exaggerate the orgs claims by saying they tried to poach from everyone. Imo the punishment seems a little hard for the alleged crime and I believe there is more to it. Imo it is part of a bigger rift between Echo Fox and other orgs (especially TSM) that started at the latest with the EF Visa issues after Regi's Visa tweet. I remember some Rick Fox interview how he said that this was all unfair, that he gets there is competition but this was too much, kinda alleging he has been misinformed by other owners regarding Visas etc. There might have been a lot of back and forth behind the scenes from then on, maybe even before that. This then probably lead to EF not signing the letter which lead to the rift deepening even more and EF getting the scrim ban. I think it is also fair to assume that there was pressure from some orgs to others to participate in the ban. Of course you can also fit an evil Riot narrative in there if you want. Like they might have tried to use the disagreements between LCS teams to try to break up the teams' united front for franchising etc., for example by being more lenient with the alleged poaching by EF. In the end a lot of speculation and almost impossible to know what is going on behind the scenes. But imo the Visa stuff and the non-signing of the letter are bigger issues between EF and the others than the possible poaching. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On February 04 2017 00:20 GrandInquisitor wrote: Thanks. But that article doesn't make much sense. It's saying that Riot threatened to deny non-signing teams LCS poaching protection and the right to sell their LCS spot. But ... if you aren't in LCS, why would you be protected by LCS poaching rules? How would you have an LCS spot to sell? It's kind of illogical. It's like a tenant accusing his landlord of saying, "If you don't renew your lease, I won't let you sublet it." It sounds like something someone pretty dumb made up for attention. That, plus the fact that no one has subsequently come back with proof of this conversation after Riot flat denied it, makes me believe that the article is just a salty owner. Yea the whole situation is kind of weird and doesn't make much sense. At the end of the day we know that there's the 3 big dogs of TL/C9/TSM that bully/dictate everything to everyone else and if you aren't with them then you don't exist. A more plausible explanation than the "poaching" thing is that there's friction between EF and one of those 3 which lead to the situation of them either telling everyone else to cut EF off or they merely cut EF off while others followed suite to try get in with the club. I'm quite the anti-Riot guy but man NA owners are so dodgy it's really hard to believe anything they say. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
With the owners letter, Riot isn't having a discussion. The teams, minus EF, said "I want this." and Riot responded with "No, now sign this or get the fuck out/risk your players getting stolen while I turn my back." Riot is clearly in the wrong on this point. EF has clearly sided with Riot against the other teams and is paying for it. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 04 2017 01:16 Gahlo wrote: With the owners letter, Riot isn't having a discussion. The teams, minus EF, said "I want this." and Riot responded with "No, now sign this or get the fuck out/risk your players getting stolen while I turn my back." Riot is clearly in the wrong on this point. EF has clearly sided with Riot against the other teams and is paying for it. Whether not franchising is good for LCS is a completely different discussion. Riot might be wrong here. There are obvious stability benefits. But I distrust what the team owners say because they are hopelessly biased in that regard. What I find bizarre here is your suggestion that "Riot is clearly in the wrong" because of Riot's threats to the teams. Those threats obviously are not real threats and are obviously something someone made up if you take half a second to think about it. Why would Riot to threaten to kick a team out of LCS if they refuse to join LCS? Why would Riot threaten not to enforce LCS rules if they refuse to join LCS? That is like threatening your girlfriend "if you break up with me I won't let you date me any more!" Or if a tenant said "My landlord threatened to kick me out if I won't renew my lease". We call that Counter Logic Negotiating. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On February 04 2017 01:53 GrandInquisitor wrote: Whether not franchising is good for LCS is a completely different discussion. Riot might be wrong here. There are obvious stability benefits. But I distrust what the team owners say because they are hopelessly biased in that regard. What I find bizarre here is your suggestion that "Riot is clearly in the wrong" because of Riot's threats to the teams. Those threats obviously are not real threats and are obviously something someone made up if you take half a second to think about it. Why would Riot to threaten to kick a team out of LCS if they refuse to join LCS? Why would Riot threaten not to enforce LCS rules if they refuse to join LCS? That is like threatening your girlfriend "if you break up with me I won't let you date me any more!" Or if a tenant said "My landlord threatened to kick me out if I won't renew my lease". We call that Counter Logic Negotiating. LCS is an advertising tool for League. Riot's "we don't make any money on the LCS" is a technicality and they know it. The teams are what makes the LCS. If all the teams decided to leave the league, the LCS would be dreadful. I'm not saying that Riot should just bend over to the teams' demands, but they should at least have dialogue. From everything that I've seen, there has been 0 negotiating at all from Riot - just an ultimatum. These threats are obviously real considering EF's actions being overlooked. I don't think it's a coincidence that Adrian's contract just happened to not be in the database and EF knew that as long as it wasn't, they had the go ahead to try and interfere with a player that was legally signed, under law. Riot could threaten to remove teams because they're the only show in town. No other competition will give the teams a similar level of visibility and stipend - something the teams need because of the anemic situation of the scene for League. Your analogy is poor. It's more along the lines of going to your girlfriend and saying "Hey, I've been paying all the rent for a while and I need you to cover your share." and have her come back saying "No, I'm not going to pay and you're going to deal with it or I'm leaving you and keeping the apartment." | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On February 04 2017 01:16 Gahlo wrote: When it comes to the visa issues, I'm gonna leave this here: With the owners letter, Riot isn't having a discussion. The teams, minus EF, said "I want this." and Riot responded with "No, now sign this or get the fuck out/risk your players getting stolen while I turn my back." Riot is clearly in the wrong on this point. EF has clearly sided with Riot against the other teams and is paying for it. Of course Regi might have been right with the Visa stuff. It is also possible that he did not warn other owners as he could have and left them out to dry. In any case my point was that Rick Fox felt wronged and that this was the origin of the rift between them. Regarding Riot "clearly" being wrong, well for me they are not. For one I do no "support" the teams' letter and I am not in favor of franchising. But even if I did I would still fully understand Riot trying to shut down the teams' ambitions. It is their league after all why would they accept someone else basically taking it over? Especially as this is attempted in a pretty hostile manner. In the end it is just a matter of conflicting interests and both sides being understandable. But I still very much resent the treatment of Echo Fox because they do not share other teams' opinion. And it is a little ominous sign to how teams would treat other teams with dissenting opinions or interests in the future once they get their way with the franchising and they have much more of a say. On February 04 2017 02:33 Gahlo wrote: Your analogy is poor. It's more along the lines of going to your girlfriend and saying "Hey, I've been paying all the rent for a while and I need you to cover your share." and have her come back saying "No, I'm not going to pay and you're going to deal with it or I'm leaving you and keeping the apartment." Except so far Riot paid the teams and not the other way around. Of course some teams have been overspending which I believe is partly due to speculating towards being rewarded with the franchise later and partly due to investors with too much money caring too little. I think this is the issue of the spenders though and does not obligate Riot to make the speculations come true. Although I agree that the revenue options for the teams have been limited too much by Riot. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 04 2017 02:33 Gahlo wrote: LCS is an advertising tool for League. Riot's "we don't make any money on the LCS" is a technicality and they know it. The teams are what makes the LCS. If all the teams decided to leave the league, the LCS would be dreadful. I'm not saying that Riot should just bend over to the teams' demands, but they should at least have dialogue. From everything that I've seen, there has been 0 negotiating at all from Riot - just an ultimatum. These threats are obviously real considering EF's actions being overlooked. I don't think it's a coincidence that Adrian's contract just happened to not be in the database and EF knew that as long as it wasn't, they had the go ahead to try and interfere with a player that was legally signed, under law. Riot could threaten to remove teams because they're the only show in town. No other competition will give the teams a similar level of visibility and stipend - something the teams need because of the anemic situation of the scene for League. Your analogy is poor. It's more along the lines of going to your girlfriend and saying "Hey, I've been paying all the rent for a while and I need you to cover your share." and have her come back saying "No, I'm not going to pay and you're going to deal with it or I'm leaving you and keeping the apartment." I understand your reasoning but you are starting from the wrong assumptions. Let's start with this: These threats are obviously real considering EF's actions being overlooked. I don't think it's a coincidence that Adrian's contract just happened to not be in the database and EF knew that as long as it wasn't, they had the go ahead to try and interfere with a player that was legally signed, under law. You talk about "legally signed, under law" as if poaching was a state or federal offense. It is not. It is solely defined with reference to LCS. It is a true fact that Adrian was signed to P1 when EF approached Adrian. It is also a true fact that Adrian's contract was not in the database when EF approached Adrian. The offense of poaching, as defined by LCS, is approaching a player with a database contract. Those two facts therefore fail to state a claim that EF poached Adrian. You also offer some weird conspiracy theory that Riot kept the contract out of the database. Every article I have read says that teams upload contracts to the database themselves. P1 has never stated, to my knowledge, that they uploaded the contract before Adrian was approached. So I see no evidence for that theory. The way you SHOULD be thinking about it is that Riot offers poaching protection. To qualify for poaching protection, you have to submit your contract to the database. If you don't, you don't get that protection. P1 is sad they didn't get the protection, but they can blame no one other than themselves for it. Basically, imagine a world in which you aren't a part of LCS. Someone poaches your player. You're shit out of luck and have literally no recourse. Riot offers, as a benefit of you joining LCS, to go after the poachers if you are in LCS. If you choose not to join LCS, then, well, why would Riot go after those poachers? Would you expect Riot to go after poachers in CS:GO? LCS is an advertising tool for League. Riot's "we don't make any money on the LCS" is a technicality and they know it. The teams are what makes the LCS. If all the teams decided to leave the league, the LCS would be dreadful. I'm not saying that Riot should just bend over to the teams' demands, but they should at least have dialogue. From everything that I've seen, there has been 0 negotiating at all from Riot - just an ultimatum. ... Riot could threaten to remove teams because they're the only show in town. No other competition will give the teams a similar level of visibility and stipend - something the teams need because of the anemic situation of the scene for League. Your initial assertion was that Riot threatened to remove teams from LCS if they didn't agree to join LCS. If you don't see how idiotic that sounds, I can't really help you there. It is true that you cannot field a League team without being in LCS. That sucks for you, maybe, if you hate Riot (cough, MonteCristo), but at the end of the day, it's their game, not yours. They have the right to exclude you. You don't have some constitutional right to participate in LCS. You are correct of course that LCS needs the teams. But it is clear that the teams need LCS more. How do I know that? Because the teams accepted Riot's terms. Assuming the truth of everything you said, all I see is a contractual negotiation between two sophisticated parties. One party (Riot) needed the other (the teams), but the teams needed Riot more, and so the teams caved. That's life, and if you feel bad for the teams, well, tough shit, they decided being in LCS was more important to them than not being in LCS. Riot has total control over LCS because it's their game. Should Riot divest its control of LCS? That's like saying, I got unfairly banned by TeamLiquid moderators, therefore TeamLiquid should be forced to sell its forum to an independent third party and let them make all the forum disciplinary decisions. And even if you were 100% correct, and some TeamLiquid moderator unfairly banned you, Nazgul would probably laugh and take a shit on your face. Because it's their forum, not yours. They try not to unfairly ban people, because it's bad for business, but to the extent you disagree with their decisions, you are free to start your own website. Your analogy is poor. It's more along the lines of going to your girlfriend and saying "Hey, I've been paying all the rent for a while and I need you to cover your share." and have her come back saying "No, I'm not going to pay and you're going to deal with it or I'm leaving you and keeping the apartment." I think you just made up an analogy because it supports you and not because it bears any relation to the facts of the case. In your analogy, your girlfriend owns the apartment. So uh, yeah, if you break up with her, then you don't get to live in it any more. You also don't get the protections and benefits from being in that apartment. I don't see how that's wrong in any way. You might WANT to live in that apartment on better terms, but at the end of the day, you don't get to decide on what terms you want to live there, she does, because it's her place. And again - this isn't about whether or not Riot actually made the threat. They denied it, no one has contradicted it. This is about how idiotic it is to claim "Riot threatened to not let me play in LCS if I didn't sign up for LCS". | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 04 2017 04:53 Slusher wrote: Please let us not forget that the database caveat was retroactively added by riot when presenting the echo fox non ruling. Wanna do an ban bet on whether the contract database was in the LCS rule set BEFORE or AFTER the Echo Fox incident? This was further supported by the fact that the database was vastly outdated and missing several signed players on the announcement of said ruling. It wasn't until after this portion of the rule was unveiled that someone at riot went through and updated it for all players. To my knowledge P1 has never claimed that they did submit the contract but Riot ignored it. If they did, that's relevant. If they didn't, then Riot's story (which is that they update it when they get contracts from the teams, but that it is the team's responsibility to submit contracts) is more credible. It makes a ton of sense that teams wouldn't bother submitting, but after seeing what happened to P1 because they didn't submit, decided to go ahead and submit. That is more plausible than your story, which is that Riot selectively chose which teams to update and which not to update (because the database was updated for many teams, just not all). | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Although know that I personally wouldn't put it past riot to retroactively add it to any still downloadable/ visible documents | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The Global Contract Database was added to the 2016 Summer LCS rules. The document itself is dated April 27, 2016, but maybe you don't believe that. Well, on June 1, 2016, some guy posted the summer 2016 ruleset changelog on the League subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4m44ml/2016_summer_lcs_rule_set_and_changelog/ The changelog is here, and shows that 10.2.12 now includes reference to the official contract database: https://esports-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/production/files/rules/2016_Summer_LCS_Changelog_V3_02.pdf Some now-deleted tweets actually suggest the database actually existed much earlier: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oUcKaqg5ftsJ:https://twitter.com/shakarez/status/756833690177703936?lang=en &cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us ~~~ I totally agree with you that 10.2.12 is not written especially clearly. As a lawyer, I think there are 3-4 ambiguities in the language that Riot could close up (though it seems unlikely to be the subject of litigation). But the idea that the database was something Riot made up after the fact is complete fiction. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Goldenglue benched, Link starting. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
On February 09 2017 12:33 Gahlo wrote: TL Goldenglue benched, Link starting. er think you read the news wrong http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/18648557/team-liquid-makes-change-mid-lane link is off the team, goldenglue is the sole starter damn link must have been really bad in scrims if they dont even care for a sub with the state goldenglue is in right now | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On February 09 2017 13:13 dsyxelic wrote: er think you read the news wrong http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/18648557/team-liquid-makes-change-mid-lane link is off the team, goldenglue is the sole starter damn link must have been really bad in scrims if they dont even care for a sub with the state goldenglue is in right now next split/season link will be a top 3 midlaner in NA now Seriously though, I don't know why TL put so much stock in scrims when Goldenglue is the perfect example of why you shouldn't. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
i wish they'd at least tried him once. we have like nothing to lose lmao seriously thought he'd come in during the nv game or efx game | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On February 09 2017 18:59 Numy wrote: What on earth is TL management even doing. Link has been MIA for 2 years then suddenly they bring him on last minute, hyping him up then promptly discarding him 3 weeks into the season. How bad must he have been that they couldn't even try him out in one game? Is anyone really surprised? Seems pretty par for the course. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On February 10 2017 13:28 zer0das wrote: Is anyone really surprised? Seems pretty par for the course. For TL? I don't think so. I feel like TL has always had a culture problem, for the longest time they only look on point and play as a team when they're winning, then the next game their shotcalling and coordination goes to pieces when they're behind and they look like a soloQ team; in situations where even the best plays can have a low success rate just because you're behind, no one in TL seems willing to take the reins of the team, call a risky play, and take responsibility for failing after the fact, so instead they don't even try and just fall apart. As far as hiring decisions go, I feel like TL's track record was fairly defensible through S6. It's S7 that feels like a train wreck by comparison, specifically in the midlane. Honestly, I feel like the ideal midlaner for TL would've been a natural leader and strong shotcaller like Hai, who can make sure the team is always on the same page. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On February 12 2017 04:08 Sent. wrote: Can we have "permanent" threads for EU and NA like we have for LCK? At least for regular games, playoffs should get their own threads This would be good. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On February 09 2017 13:13 dsyxelic wrote: er think you read the news wrong http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/18648557/team-liquid-makes-change-mid-lane link is off the team, goldenglue is the sole starter damn link must have been really bad in scrims if they dont even care for a sub with the state goldenglue is in right now have you seen him in solo q lol, he can barely scrape masters and has a mediocre champ pool.Goldenglue is bad but eons ahead of link. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
On February 12 2017 06:06 VayneAuthority wrote: have you seen him in solo q lol, he can barely scrape masters and has a mediocre champ pool.Goldenglue is bad but eons ahead of link. yeah but I thought it was a motivation issue (not being on a team) because when TL picked him up he shot up to like 300+ LP challenger which is nothing amazing for a pro but showed at least to me that it could've been motivation issues and not taking soloq seriously before TL knew this too and picked him up despite that so its surprising to me since this was all information we were already given before the link pickup, and we still drop him like a sack of hot potatoes before even trying him. which means he was so shit beyond what we even expected | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On February 12 2017 06:52 dsyxelic wrote: yeah but I thought it was a motivation issue (not being on a team) because when TL picked him up he shot up to like 300+ LP challenger which is nothing amazing for a pro but showed at least to me that it could've been motivation issues and not taking soloq seriously before TL knew this too and picked him up despite that so its surprising to me since this was all information we were already given before the link pickup, and we still drop him like a sack of hot potatoes before even trying him. which means he was so shit beyond what we even expected his only good winrates are like ryze and lb and i think picking the super OPs in scrims is generally frowned upon or banned out to test strats so I would assume he just got trashed mid when not on good champs. I think his secondary champs are like lulu/ori/cass/zed or something | ||
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Harem
United States11393 Posts
On February 12 2017 07:02 VayneAuthority wrote: his only good winrates are like ryze and lb and i think picking the super OPs in scrims is generally frowned upon or banned out to test strats so I would assume he just got trashed mid when not on good champs. I think his secondary champs are like lulu/ori/cass/zed or something https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=link Those arent his only good winrates and he likes playing other champs too ie Ekko. https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=sooyoung There is also his smurf where he likes playing other champs like TF. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On February 12 2017 04:08 Sent. wrote: Can we have "permanent" threads for EU and NA like we have for LCK? At least for regular games, playoffs should get their own threads I'll get it done in an hour or two. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
There were teams willing to go, but we went with the highest Western Worlds team after we approached FlyQuest & the other NA teams that went to Worlds. Stuff might happen in the break in NA that reddit will talk about a lot btw  -Carmac If it's TSM, are we going to see an early return of the liftlift? If it's CLG, Aphro getting cut? | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
I'm getting more and more tilted by these decisions. like unles matt just doesn't want to play anymore, why? | ||
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Faeny
647 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On February 16 2017 12:36 Kaneh wrote: http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/18693568/konkwon-joins-team-liquid-back-matt I'm getting more and more tilted by these decisions. like unles matt just doesn't want to play anymore, why? This is literally the same announcement as LiquidLink with less of a to do about it. Like the literal same thing, player who retired wants a second shot so he'll live off site and possibly play in LCS. I can't imagine this change impacting anything, something just feels off about the ex-Curse side of TL. They're in a perpetual state of "no this was the problem, NOW we're ready". | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On February 21 2017 01:49 Sent. wrote: Why does nobody want to attend IEM events? Because in LoL they don't matter. No one cares who was IEM world champion if you bomb out of worlds in the group stage. For whatever reason the LoL esports ecosystem gives no fucks for IEM and its not worth traveling if that means doing worse in your respective domestic league | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On February 21 2017 01:49 Sent. wrote: Why does nobody want to attend IEM events? Most of them happen during the offseason when players want to spend time with family/loved ones, teams don't have whole rosters, or teams have very new rosters and don't want to give an unpracticed impression. Katowice throws off Spring Split practice, which has a large impact on 2/3 of the regions' Worlds spots. | ||
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amd098
Korea (North)1366 Posts
On February 16 2017 13:49 chipmonklord17 wrote: This is literally the same announcement as LiquidLink with less of a to do about it. Like the literal same thing, player who retired wants a second shot so he'll live off site and possibly play in LCS. I can't imagine this change impacting anything, something just feels off about the ex-Curse side of TL. They're in a perpetual state of "no this was the problem, NOW we're ready". yea idk what is going on with the league side/ex curse side its like they just leave you high and dry. like breaking point was just hell and the whole team needed a therapist. CLG and TSM both used weldon to help through that but man, liquid needs like dr strange it seems. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On February 22 2017 11:02 Sent. wrote: They are trying out various rosters, but that is one of them.Are those rumors about Piglet switching to midlane legit? | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
full on tryouts for liquid. choice quotes from steve: “We recognize that [Greyson “Goldenglue” Gilmer] is underperforming on the roster.” “We tried Link out in scrims, and we have statistics associated with those scrims,” Arhancet said. “They were very obvious that Goldenglue was the better choice for the team… It was unanimous that [Goldenglue] was the better player.” When asked about the rumor of Piglet moving to mid lane, Arhancet said it was a possibility. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
piglets actually a decent mid from what i've seen in soloq. kind of the jensen type. strong laner that puts pressure but kind of demands attention ( i guess pretty much how he played bot) theoretically its a much better style to play in mid than bot right now for sure the only question I have is his non assassins. i've seen some good play on his stream on ryze and such but only saw him play it rarely. his zed is clean tho lol question is whos adc if he mids? some rumors said link but wtf | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On February 22 2017 18:25 Numy wrote: So everyone tells them GG isn't good enough quantity for LCS at least not as a starter, they go with GG anyway. Then instead of picking up any kind of potential mid laner they pick up another very old washed up talent in Link, kick him weeks later. Now they are in full crisis mode trying out anything. Absolute disaster right here. We have to remember Arhancet's not top dog at TL anymore, but rather this co-ownership group with Peter Guber, Ted Leonsis, Magic Johnson and so on, so when they see their investment is 2-8 and flirting with relegation, it makes sense that they'd do an intervention and go into full crisis mode, especially considering they just got a week off to try things out. The person who must be in really hot water right now is Arhancet, who's still in charge of management and day-to-day operations. He got more money and put together a weaker roster for Spring 2017 and is ultimately responsible for the team's results thus far. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets the boot between now and the summer split. It wouldn't be unprecedented for a team's CEO to get replaced, either. HotshotGG handed over the CEO reins for CLG to Mylixia (I think that's how it's spelled) a while back, and he's done a pretty respectable job of keeping CLG relevant in the NA LCS in the face of progressively tougher competition. The same can't be said of Arhancet. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
I'm not saying them going into desperation mode is good or bad, merely that it's bad that they have gotten to this point. A lot of failure has to take place for an established team to reach this. We saw that happen in CLG where Hotshot, an emotional person without good leadership skills or business sense was handling their reigns. He rightfully(willingly or not) delegated his operation to people that could handle this aspect. On February 22 2017 23:50 AdsMoFro wrote: Also, Steve wasn't part of the day to day for the League team this split. He'd handed it over to his staff. Now he's coming back and making changes. This is even more worrying now if true. When a manager leaves his operation it shouldn't fall to pieces, if it does that just speaks volumes to the ability of the manager himself. The systems should be in place that in the short term nothing changes if that person vanishes. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5uyrjf/fun_fact_about_team_liquid_every_team_has_at/ | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On February 22 2017 23:52 Numy wrote: The important part isn't merely replacing people but figuring out why things went wrong in the first place. Too often you see people just firing individuals in management without actually solving the problem which just leads to a collapse. TL has been failing for over a year now(Could make a case for the entirety in LoL), which means they have to figure why this is the case and then take steps to solve it. These steps could involve removal and often do. I'm not saying them going into desperation mode is good or bad, merely that it's bad that they have gotten to this point. A lot of failure has to take place for an established team to reach this. We saw that happen in CLG where Hotshot, an emotional person without good leadership skills or business sense was handling their reigns. He rightfully(willingly or not) delegated his operation to people that could handle this aspect. This is even more worrying now if true. When a manager leaves his operation it shouldn't fall to pieces, if it does that just speaks volumes to the ability of the manager himself. The systems should be in place that in the short term nothing changes if that person vanishes. Well it didn't fall to pieces, it was already in pieces and it just continued like that. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
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Harem
United States11393 Posts
R O F L | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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amd098
Korea (North)1366 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Like the link says: piglet to move to mid lane and youngbin to become starting adc. Note the changes are still pending at Riot. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On February 27 2017 03:00 Redox wrote: In other news Whiteknight just played for PSG in EU CS vs Kinguin, replacing Steve. Have not heard of this guy since season 3 I think. That is kinda like the NYJacky thing only that it is true. Didn't see the game is Whiteknight still a beast? | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On March 01 2017 07:30 Yorbon wrote: http://wwg.com/esports/2017/02/28/report-piglet-to-move-to-mid-lane-for-team-liquid-youngbin-to-ad/ Like the link says: piglet to move to mid lane and youngbin to become starting adc. Note the changes are still pending at Riot. This can't be real. I mean I know it is but it just can't. I agree with whoever said it in the article, they needed a change but this just sounds insane | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On March 01 2017 07:56 Jek wrote: Didn't see the game is Whiteknight still a beast? Did not see much either but they won and apparently he was solid. And there was this impressive Gragas play: (worth a look) | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On March 01 2017 14:35 chipmonklord17 wrote: This can't be real. I mean I know it is but it just can't. I agree with whoever said it in the article, they needed a change but this just sounds insane The desperation is real. Shows you what they think of Goldenglue's performance. That might be a career ender right there. Tbh I did not think it was THAT bad. And their bot lane had problems as well. I always thought TL put way too much trust into Piglet but oh well. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
http://as.com/esports/2017/02/27/league_of_legends/1488215984_412848.html#english-version Peke trying to play mid again, probably not well practiced at all. Nae-Hyun going to support without any experience while Hiva is benched. Wisdom benched as well and they signed "Cinkrof" from Baskonia as new jungler. And now according to the article this guy does not even want to play for OG anymore because they play so bad, so now it is open who they have. Yeah, it is almost comical how bad this is. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Coach Ssong stops coaching at longzhu (original member of Najin Sword in 2012) From google translate I could decipher that the contract was terminated with mutual agreement, so that could mean anything. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On March 01 2017 14:59 Redox wrote: The desperation is real. Shows you what they think of Goldenglue's performance. That might be a career ender right there. Tbh I did not think it was THAT bad. And their bot lane had problems as well. I always thought TL put way too much trust into Piglet but oh well. I don't think it's especially desperate. Piglet has always been a carry-style player, and the easiest position to carry from nowadays is mid. He's also a playmaker ADC in a meta in which botlane ADCs just poke and you actually get more playmaking from midlane hybrid ADCs like Corki. If there was ever a meta for Piglet to play in the midlane, this is it. As to Goldenglue, his results speak for themselves, and I see him as easily the weakest midlaner for these past 5 weeks in the NA LCS. He's been mediocre at best and terrible at worst, so you don't need a Bjergsen or a Jensen to improve upon that. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On March 01 2017 15:09 Redox wrote: And OG is having an even bigger meltdown: http://as.com/esports/2017/02/27/league_of_legends/1488215984_412848.html#english-version Peke trying to play mid again, probably not well practiced at all. Nae-Hyun going to support without any experience while Hiva is benched. Wisdom benched as well and they signed "Cinkrof" from Baskonia as new jungler. And now according to the article this guy does not even want to play for OG anymore because they play so bad, so now it is open who they have. Yeah, it is almost comical how bad this is. Ok yeah this one stinks of a full-blown trainwreck. OG used to be a top EU team back when they had Zven/Niels and Mithy in the botlane but I haven't really followed the team after those two left, what happened to them? | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On March 02 2017 04:41 NeoIllusions wrote: TL by far. OG made it to semis on raw talent but failed to secure their roster nor did they manage to fill in their gaps. TL on the other hand, has regularly touted a quality lineup but never performed up to expectations (insert Curse/TL 4th meme here) and somehow it's gotten worse this season despite more funding and larger staff. It's some very thinking shit. I'd have to agree with Neo. TL had not only just had quality squads they had squads with top 3-5 picks/ranks in multiple positions for a few splits. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
If we're taking about hype levels then TL is definitely a bigger fuckup but that's because EU is terrible at hyping up their teams ever since Alliance got Kabumed. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
peke may not even have a league organization in the LCS by the end of this split (or year). it's a very likely situation since their team is just straight garbage even in terms of CS TL even with all their deficiencies should still be strong enough to stay in the LCS and on the business side of things steve has done pretty well if not stellar. OG is failing on all fronts, they legit have nothing going for them. at least TL has money lol. + Show Spoiler [shitty analogy] + TL is the rich kid that has been told he's smart all his life and did well in high school until he gets to college and gets utterly rekt OG is the small town kid who had an incredible year getting tons of awards and accolades and all the scholarships to the best schools. after a stellar freshman year his model girlfriend leaves him for a better man. he becomes a crack addict and now is about to live on the streets both flunked out of school, one is far worse off | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
There has to be one high level challenger player who would be willing to try. Lol. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
On March 04 2017 04:55 iCanada wrote: But I mean... surely they could find a better ADC no? There has to be one high level challenger player who would be willing to try. Lol. apparently they tried out saber who is a pretty well known challenger player that isnt locked onto a challenger team in the pool of names mentioned for tryouts (youngbin, link, saber) he is definitely regarded as the big favorite there but must've been some reason (prob communication/synergy not skill) | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32278 Posts
On March 04 2017 12:50 GrandInquisitor wrote: Goldenglue downloading Heroes of the Storm as we speak loool | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On March 04 2017 12:50 GrandInquisitor wrote: Goldenglue downloading Heroes of the Storm as we speak Piglet was impressively good mid even if he was laning against Pob, who probably has the ignoble honor of being 2nd worst mid in NA. I'm not sure if this is enough for TL to do even make playoffs let alone do well, but definitely enough to avoid relegations. If only they don't have to drag a Fabby-clone down 50 CS out of laning into teamfights though. Also based on the post-game interview and rumors, I'd attach a high confidence to weight Youngbin as ADC being heavily based on his relationship as Piglet's friend, rather than any actual tryout skill performance. | ||
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
I am happy piglet is a good mid tho, hopefully they won't find a very exploitable flaw before TL gets more wins! | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On March 04 2017 22:41 St3MoR wrote: I would think that him having a past with TLA made him obvious favorite, kinda used to their system already, although he was very underwhelming as mid in CS and on important games pretty much always sucked I am happy piglet is a good mid tho, hopefully they won't find a very exploitable flaw before TL gets more wins! The ban a bunch of adc strats worked pretty well for IMT game one. Reapered/Parth/FlyQuest are gonna out draft the shit out of them | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On March 05 2017 02:01 chipmonklord17 wrote: The ban a bunch of adc strats worked pretty well for IMT game one. Reapered/Parth/FlyQuest are gonna out draft the shit out of them In Midlet we trust! | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
https://www.facebook.com/teamliquid/videos/1465375940214181/ I... what... | ||
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ketchup
14521 Posts
On March 08 2017 13:19 NeoIllusions wrote: https://twitter.com/TeamLiquidLoL/status/839328804434759680 https://www.facebook.com/teamliquid/videos/1465375940214181/ I... what... It was only supposed to be a joke! How did it actually happen. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
And now he returns to Curse, given that just for few weeks, but still, lol. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10398 Posts
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
(I'm guessing Matt will still be blamed lmao). | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
not only do we get to (hopefully) root for a somewhat decent league of legends team now, it's basically assured that we'll get at least wildturtle. no way TSM and TL don't do an adc swap if DL rejoins TSM. also can't wait for some DL x Piglet. the respect they have for one another is huge | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On March 08 2017 13:22 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: I thought my worst nightmares happened when Liftlift joined TSM. And now he returns to Curse, given that just for few weeks, but still, lol. Yeah not really the same thing. First thing was a competitive transfer. This is just Regi helping out a friend in need. Relegation danger is real for TL so this makes all the sense in the world. Steve is surely ready to make it worth for DL. And Regi does not want to lose one of his biggest allies. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On March 08 2017 16:48 Slusher wrote: Actually a smart move by Regi, doesn't have to put up with Doubelifts competitive rust the first weeks of summer. Instead he'll work it off while on tl. Thorin suggests that Double actually wanted to come back early(Supposedly regi told him) but Regi wasn't keen on "screwing" turtle this split. Feels a bit like Regi is making TSM worse for Worlds(less time with complete roster) knowing that domestically it doesn't matter and this has a higher chance of keeping one of this good guy owners in the LCS. | ||
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On March 08 2017 17:54 Numy wrote: Thorin suggests that Double actually wanted to come back early(Supposedly regi told him) but Regi wasn't keen on "screwing" turtle this split. Feels a bit like Regi is making TSM worse for Worlds(less time with complete roster) knowing that domestically it doesn't matter and this has a higher chance of keeping one of this good guy owners in the LCS. Yea I saw what he wrote, don't really agree with it unless DL had come to Regi weeks ago. This team can win the split as is, why risk possible rust? This solution gives them the ability to get Double on stage practice, keep their momentum for the split championship AND collect money from team liquid all at the same time. Without question Double is the better AD, but with him returning this close to playoffs there is an outside chance he could set you back a couple weeks , why take the risk when you can profit off of not taking it? | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On March 08 2017 23:54 Slusher wrote: Yea I saw what he wrote, don't really agree with it unless DL had come to Regi weeks ago. This team can win the split as is, why risk possible rust? This solution gives them the ability to get Double on stage practice, keep their momentum for the split championship AND collect money from team liquid all at the same time. Without question Double is the better AD, but with him returning this close to playoffs there is an outside chance he could set you back a couple weeks , why take the risk when you can profit off of not taking it? Especially since they are guaranteed a top 4 spot for spring points at this rate at the very least. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
The fuck? 'Team Liquid has purchased contract rights to now-former Phoenix1 support Adrian "Adrian" Ma, who will most likely sit out the remainder of the Spring Split before competing for a spot on the Liquid lineup before the Summer Split, sources close to the player and teams told ESPN.' | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
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amd098
Korea (North)1366 Posts
On March 08 2017 14:43 dsyxelic wrote: wow this is some great news for tl fans not only do we get to (hopefully) root for a somewhat decent league of legends team now, it's basically assured that we'll get at least wildturtle. no way TSM and TL don't do an adc swap if DL rejoins TSM. also can't wait for some DL x Piglet. the respect they have for one another is huge nope, tsm plans on having both adcs next split “I’m happy that Peter has this opportunity to practice competitively before the summer split. He’s been a good friend of mine, and we will happily give him a fair try out for the summer split. The goal is to have the best possible roster at worlds and having Double as a potential 6th man would only help us with our endeavors at Worlds 2017 . It is good that he’s getting practice now, and hopefully it will not be a large shift for him when he comes back.” -Andy ‘Reginald’ Dinh | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On March 09 2017 02:01 Ansibled wrote: https://twitter.com/JacobNWolf/status/839521199742988291 The fuck? 'Team Liquid has purchased contract rights to now-former Phoenix1 support Adrian "Adrian" Ma, who will most likely sit out the remainder of the Spring Split before competing for a spot on the Liquid lineup before the Summer Split, sources close to the player and teams told ESPN.' I think the writing is on the wall that Turtle is going to TL in the Summer with this move. TL will have 3/5 of the 2016 Immortals roster, a better mid in Piglet, and a passable top in Lourlo. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Especially with the meta being way into Adrian's favor atm | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On March 09 2017 02:30 Slusher wrote: With the way Mat is playing I wonder why they are letting him finish the split Especially with the meta being way into Adrian's favor atm I thought Adrian is not available for this split since the roster is locked? | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Overall decent developments, although they feel a bit chaotic. It would be sad if TL relegates. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
I'm just saying, the move could look dumb if the mid season update makes tank supports bonkers | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On March 09 2017 03:16 Slusher wrote: unless the rules are different for subs rosters can't be locked yet with Double planning to start. I'm just saying, the move could look dumb if the mid season update makes tank supports bonkers Adrian can play tank supports. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
On March 09 2017 02:14 amd098 wrote: nope, tsm plans on having both adcs next split “I’m happy that Peter has this opportunity to practice competitively before the summer split. He’s been a good friend of mine, and we will happily give him a fair try out for the summer split. The goal is to have the best possible roster at worlds and having Double as a potential 6th man would only help us with our endeavors at Worlds 2017 . It is good that he’s getting practice now, and hopefully it will not be a large shift for him when he comes back.” -Andy ‘Reginald’ Dinh I saw their plans, doesnt mean itll happen. We've seen all the attempts in na for multiman rosters. Only a few work out even close to the way it was planned. Just as how tl says theyre gonna have matt and adrian work together, in reality one will be the main guy and the other eventually let go. How early is the bigger question so that teams can pick the player up. I think its far more likely we see tl wildturtle if dl returns to tsm. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On March 09 2017 03:00 Numy wrote: We've seen TL scramble to put together teams with seemingly good players plenty of times in the past. This just feels like more desperation mode antics without much long term planning which ultimately may lead to the exact same result further down the line. Long term stuff is kinda irrelevant when you are facing relegation. They have to stop the boat from sinking right now. | ||
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amd098
Korea (North)1366 Posts
On March 09 2017 03:43 dsyxelic wrote: I saw their plans, doesnt mean itll happen. We've seen all the attempts in na for multiman rosters. Only a few work out even close to the way it was planned. Just as how tl says theyre gonna have matt and adrian work together, in reality one will be the main guy and the other eventually let go. How early is the bigger question so that teams can pick the player up. I think its far more likely we see tl wildturtle if dl returns to tsm. few work out? easyhoon/faker wraith/corejj huni/profit bengi/blank blank/peanut | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
On March 10 2017 06:19 amd098 wrote: few work out? easyhoon/faker wraith/corejj huni/profit bengi/blank blank/peanut did you miss this part of my post: We've seen all the attempts in na for multiman rosters. didn't know skt and samsung were na teams now. kr is a different story. they can make those things work. na can barely take care of their soloq talents, they haven't really shown the ability to have two useful players at one role. though I'd argue the first two there (easyhoon/faker + wraith/corejj) weren't really good sub setups. corejj and faker were clearly better for the team in pretty much all scenarios. putting in wraith/easyhoon was the inferior choice like 99% of the time. as soon as faker learned azir it was over for easyhoon lol. bengi/blank I guess, though their thing was weird with bengi being good in internationals and blank being good in regional league. them being trash at the other. huni/profit, blank/peanut look good atm but its still early on in the year. not to mention like slusher said, thats all from just two orgs. one of them being the most successful organization in like all of esports, of course they would be the ones to pull it off if anyone. but thats besides the point, i clearly stated NA | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
And that's before the fact that Liftlift could be quite rusty whereas most teams will have completely shaken off their rust by now. Another consideration: If TL fails to get out of relegation zone by the end of the split, will DL stick with the team through the promotion tournament? I imagine both Regi and DL will be eager to have him returning to TSM and getting back their groove as a team as soon as possible, but TL would also rather have him over Youngbin for this (conjectural) most critical series in the team's history. | ||
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amd098
Korea (North)1366 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
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amd098
Korea (North)1366 Posts
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On April 04 2017 22:51 Sent. wrote: So what did Adrian gaing from leaving P1? Few months of higher salary and damaged reputation? He didn't leave P1, he was traded. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/63q7bs/new_korean_law_forces_male_celebrities_and/ | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
By far the most accurate awards Riot has done, I actually agree completely with the 1st team | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On April 08 2017 06:15 Sent. wrote: Almost posted that some choices are questionable but then I realized I was doing that because I was trying to to find flaws in the most accurate ranking done by Riot by far. I also agree with it altough I skipped like 90% of Envy's games in the regular season so maybe Dardoch deserves it more than Lira. Lira was hands down the best jungler by the end of the split. He threatened to carry his trash team every game and never went full implosion mode like Dardoch does. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
but yes this time they took out the easier way to do bad votes (voting for ur own player) and things like that so we got pretty good results here. edit: im looking through these ballots and rofl reapered and smoothie with the mass "INVALID"s from voting their own team smoothie putting shady as #3 support and reapered putting #1 all c9 #2 all tsm #3 all p1 cmon c9 -_- zig barely missed out. he had many people have him 2nd/3rd best top i also dont understand how contractz got the few 1st place votes he did p1's coach fly has a meme team as 1st (looper, chaser, midlet, apollo, hakuho) p1 zig is also meme 1st team (lourlo ro goldenglue youngbin adrian) 3rd party media/riot generally has good votes player/coaches eh.. | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
Zven is the only one with over 100 points. Hauntzer, Arrow and Smoothie had over 100 points in NA. | ||
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mmoxeservice1
Austria3 Posts
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mmoxeservice1
Austria3 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On May 13 2017 00:57 Ansibled wrote: Why CLG Why https://twitter.com/clgaming/status/863060027686256640 Wonder what happened to IMT investing years into Dardoch. Either way its an upgrade for CLG but a weird one. I don't think Xmithie was bad enough to replace, even if Dardoch is a bit better | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
??? | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On May 13 2017 02:44 Sent. wrote: So they kicked Doublelift because they considered him toxic for the team environment and now they sign Dardoch? ??? Normally I'd make a snarky comment about Hotshot here, but ever since Mylixia's has been calling the shots at CLG, it feels like the team has been managed more or less properly. The firing of DL is the only (very) questionable decision he's made, so rather than haughty I actually feel confused as to why CLG is now okay with having a notoriously toxic player in its starting lineup. My best guess is that time heals all wounds. It's been 18 months since CLG fired Doublelift. The CLG of today is probably different in a number of ways compared to what it was back then. Or maybe with time they even concluded that it was a mistake to let DL go, and that the tradeoff of having a toxic yet highly talented player is worthwhile. Either way, enough time has passed between booting DL and picking up Dardoch that I'm willing to give CLG the benefit of the doubt here, and not call them out on the decision. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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nobodywonder
United States848 Posts
On May 15 2017 14:49 geript wrote: I'm betting it has something to do with Aphro telling them he's gone (retiring) after this split. The funny thing is that I don't fault them for booting Doublelift. I do fault them for booting Pobelter and keeping Huhi. The Pobelter thing was because they suddenly wanted to split playing time between Huhi and Pobelter, and then Pobelter didn't want to split any time and wanted to be a starter. I felt that it was a mistake, but Pobelter hasn't been playing that great recently so I feel okay with it. Huhi is like really bad, but also good in a weird way. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
how was the last iteration of the LS + selfie project called? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On May 17 2017 20:59 Gahlo wrote: Hallelujah indeed.Hallelujah. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On May 17 2017 22:38 Sent. wrote: SUPA HOT CREW, not sure if MYM counts SHC was an EU team. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I'm grateful this finally makes SPOTV watchable now, and hopeful this exposes LS for the fraud that he is. "the most comprehensive understanding of the game of any individual in the West" lmao | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On May 17 2017 13:08 NeoIllusions wrote: So I take it Crumbz is actually taking LS's spot on SpoTV broadcasts now, instead of shared casting. Is LS actually leaving Korea though? Thought he's in a long term relationship. Personally don't really care that much about LS either way. He's no where near as good at the game as claimed but no where near as bad as others say. Unfortunately think Monte's style rubbed off on him too much but he lacks the charm Monte brings to offset that smugness. So while he's doing similar things it just doesn't work as well for most people. Maybe he'll manage this better. Coaching isn't something that just happens but takes lots of time and adapting to get right. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On May 18 2017 00:10 Numy wrote: Is LS actually leaving Korea though? Thought he's in a long term relationship. Personally don't really care that much about LS either way. He's no where near as good at the game as claimed but no where near as bad as others say. Unfortunately think Monte's style rubbed off on him too much but he lacks the charm Monte brings to offset that smugness. So while he's doing similar things it just doesn't work as well for most people. Maybe he'll manage this better. Coaching isn't something that just happens but takes lots of time and adapting to get right. I can't imagine any team hiring an offsite coach like this. The last offsite coach I can recall was Monte with CLG and we all know how that panned out. | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On May 17 2017 23:23 GrandInquisitor wrote: Remember when LS coached G2, but they weren't doing well, and they had a payment dispute where LS threatened to send G2's scrims and other private information to every other team in Europe, and how everyone on Reddit said G2 would never get anywhere now without LS? I'm grateful this finally makes SPOTV watchable now, and hopeful this exposes LS for the fraud that he is. "the most comprehensive understanding of the game of any individual in the West" lmao I like the part of LS "commands the respect of the best players in the world".  | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On May 18 2017 02:23 NeoIllusions wrote: I can't imagine any team hiring an offsite coach like this. The last offsite coach I can recall was Monte with CLG and we all know how that panned out. The article I read stated part of him accepting the offer was them seeing the worth in him continuing to live in Korea so he's definitely not leaving. "In addition to this they see the value in allowing me to continue to work from [South] Korea, something most other teams didn't, Going forward I'm really confident in the ability of the roster and I believe it has a foundation that will truly enable my coaching style to flourish and aid the team tremendously." Right from the ESPN article originally linked | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
On May 17 2017 20:59 Gahlo wrote: Hallelujah. Thank god | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On May 18 2017 07:03 NeoIllusions wrote: I guess I glossed over that bit about LS staying in Korea. Wonder how it'll work out for them although I'm not holding my breath. Probably the same way Monte on CLG did. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
From reddit, the matchups will be... CN-KR-LMS EU-NA BR-LAN-LAS CIS-TUR JPN-OCE-SEA Top 4 teams from each region will attend(Maybe just for CN/KR/LMS?). More details on Friday. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On May 22 2017 23:10 Yorbon wrote: Although I think more international competition is good, I'm kindof worried for calenders being too full. Some of the teams higher up barely have any time to rest at all. I think it was Scarra on BTR that brought up an idea of letting the lower bracket teams or maybe even the challenger teams go to events like IEM or this. That way the higher rated teams won't be as swamped plus lower ranked teams get exposure to competition they would never face otherwise. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
On May 22 2017 23:10 Yorbon wrote: Although I think more international competition is good, I'm kindof worried for calenders being too full. Some of the teams higher up barely have any time to rest at all. Would be cool if Riot encouraged/forced LCS teams to use more subs in regular splits. Not just one or two rarely playing subs per team, get a sub for each player and let that player have some time off during the split. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On May 24 2017 03:12 Sent. wrote: Would be cool if Riot encouraged/forced LCS teams to use more subs in regular splits. Not just one or two rarely playing subs per team, get a sub for each player and let that player have some time off during the split. It'd be nice, but there isn't money for it with relegation in existence, let alone actual talent.. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
One day we'll get a good format. More competitions at least I guess.... | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On May 24 2017 03:12 Sent. wrote: Would be cool if Riot encouraged/forced LCS teams to use more subs in regular splits. Not just one or two rarely playing subs per team, get a sub for each player and let that player have some time off during the split. Seems stupid to me. A team consists of 5 players, any changes to that make things pretty random. You never know how much which configuration was practiced by which team. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On May 24 2017 04:18 Sent. wrote: Could be worse. I would prefer something with Bo3s but it's still not as bad as the Battle of the Atlantic. Don't know why they just can't do a normal weekend tournament we've had in gaming for the last 20 years. Hell if that's too tight they can just do a 4 day one instead. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
Idk, it's pretty funny seeing Riot force this kind of tournament on teams Not a big fan of single round robins, we uh, kinda saw that this tournament, WE had an OK week 1, and superb week 2. At the very least we finally get to see some more international teams, especially deeper team variety. Now we get to see how LPL 2-4 stack up against LCK 2-4, same with NA vs EU. Battle of the Atlantic. I had completely forgotten that tournament until you reminded me, was not very interesting since there were no playoffs. Also, Lemondogs :/ | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
bo7 (or 5? if too many games) -everyone plays at least N/3 games (so at least 2 for bo7) -next team to play must be locked in by end of previous game -if it reaches final game you get to pick your 'ace' to play a third time -a team may not have 2 games more played than another at any time (to avoid situations where a team plays twice and another didnt play while series ends) kind of like proleague back in the day for bw but with teams as players. would create interesting matchups and fun collaboration within teams of each regions. and ace match would be hype edit: the cons would be - harder to schedule since amount of games has variance - not as much specific team preparation since they dont know their actual opponents for sure which I would counter with -riot deals with this anyways during LCS and other tournaments -quality of games isn't going to be super clean anyways. no prize pool (i believe) and no other incentive besides pride. also some teams will have fallen off a bit/will have new members | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
[–]liquid112 GM of Team Liquid [score hidden] 11 minutes ago I know that folks might be thinking what the !@#, headed straight for relegation's - same shit, how the heck do you come to that decision. Put simply, Cain is a major factor. My personal involvement this split is another. The meta isn't cc-bot ADC's and assassin only junglers. And lastly and most importantly, we believe in Goldenglue. We invested in him and believe we will see better results in comparison to last split. Time will tell if we prove folks wrong and ourselves right or not. Appreciate the support from our fans who will be rooting for us to succeed. TL is the new underdog. lol teamliquid | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
was actually the roster i bet my friend on they're just going to tank a bit more through the power of friendship until piglet is considered a resident im a big piglet fan and i make that no secret, but even if this roster works short term (works as in make playoffs, nothing more) they're going to have to cut players again. cain does seem like a good coach and I know for sure the team won't be as garbage as it was last year especially with a better meta, but seems like steve fell for the sunk cost fallacy with piglet. piglet can be worth on a team but this roster i don't think is one where he is worth the only way this can work (actual playoff contender) is if goldenglue massive improves to something like a top 3-4 mid in NA which I don't see happening at all whatsoever. and this is also assuming piglet will be a top 3-4 adc as well. i hope they prove me wrong though. edit: and saint still listed there as strategic coach? wut | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Uhm... lets see if they can make it into playoffs. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On May 24 2017 11:04 Kaneh wrote: goldenglue better be shitstomping bjerg/jensen in scrims for this to even remotely make sense. It doesn't. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On an unrelated note huge props to G2 for giving Expect/Trick a break to go back home and playing with subs for the first week (or more). | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
The GG rhetoric is even worse since it's just repeating the same thing that has been said every time the guy tries to compete without in any way dealing with the supposed cause of him being bad on stage. | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On May 24 2017 17:55 Numy wrote: I love how TL talks about how meta was so bad for Piglet last split that's why he suffered yet all the good ADCs around the world still looked good in that meta and made it work. If I still cared about TL I'd be so angry by now but the league team managed to kill off any care I had for this organization long ago. It is hilarious seeing the dumpsterfire drama every split at least :D The GG rhetoric is even worse since it's just repeating the same thing that has been said every time the guy tries to compete without in any way dealing with the supposed cause of him being bad on stage. I'm not too good at the game, so correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this past split more mid/jgl focused? Fair enough that the adc's were more utility focused and Piglet plays more of the carry adcs (but cait was a stomper so hmmmmm). How ever the game favored a roaming mid with jungle pressure, something GG says that favors him in a past BTR episode as he likes to snowball other lanes. In a meta that he is supposed to shine in, he looked mundane at best. You have Arcsecond and he looked pretty decent and you could build off him I feel. Why focus on GG when it was shown on several different teams that his stage performances aren't there? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
I'm not too good at the game, so correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this past split more mid/jgl focused? It was, especially at the start. Fair enough that the adc's were more utility focused and Piglet plays more of the carry adcs (but cait was a stomper so hmmmmm). Yes, but if Piglet is worth using an import slot on then playstyle shouldn't be a limitation. Also, Cait's rise in the bot lane came late in the split after significant meta changes. How ever the game favored a roaming mid with jungle pressure, something GG says that favors him in a past BTR episode as he likes to snowball other lanes. In a meta that he is supposed to shine in, he looked mundane at best. GG has also said that he was trying too much to prop up his teammates and sacrifice his individual power - in essance, playing jungle from the mid lane, and that he's learned to be more selfish during his time in Korea. You have Arcsecond and he looked pretty decent and you could build off him I feel. Why focus on GG when it was shown on several different teams that his stage performances aren't there? They have to know something that isn't public knowledge and makes it a reasonable path to follow. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On May 24 2017 11:04 Kaneh wrote: goldenglue better be shitstomping bjerg/jensen in scrims for this to even remotely make sense. My opinion was from the start that benching Goldenglue and putting Piglet mid made no sense whatsoever. I was always very sure that Piglet would not stay in mid. So I see this move as at least rectifying that mistake. Although I would have preferred if they got rid of Piglet by now and got a mid lane import. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On May 25 2017 01:09 Redox wrote: My opinion was from the start that benching Goldenglue and putting Piglet mid made no sense whatsoever. I was always very sure that Piglet would not stay in mid. So I see this move as at least rectifying that mistake. Although I would have preferred if they got rid of Piglet by now and got a mid lane import. I thought Midlet was worth trying. I was very clearly shown to be in the wrong. I agree now that getting rid of Piglet to free up an import slot for a good midlaner would be the most sensible path forward for TL, but who would they even get? And are there decent ADCs who aren't already taken in NA? A Wildturtle-level player wouldn't do if TL wants to reach playoffs. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On May 25 2017 02:11 Zato-1 wrote: I thought Midlet was worth trying. I was very clearly shown to be in the wrong. I agree now that getting rid of Piglet to free up an import slot for a good midlaner would be the most sensible path forward for TL, but who would they even get? And are there decent ADCs who aren't already taken in NA? A Wildturtle-level player wouldn't do if TL wants to reach playoffs. I Wildturtle-level player wasn't enough of a drop off to have TSM not win NA. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On May 25 2017 02:30 Sent. wrote: I think TL's main problem wasn't Goldgenglue but their coaching staff. chipmonklord17 is right, their roster had the potential to be at least a middle of the pack team. Coaching staff is quickly becoming the number 1 league scapegoat. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On May 25 2017 02:30 Sent. wrote: I think TL's main problem wasn't Goldgenglue but their coaching staff. chipmonklord17 is right, their roster had the potential to be at least a middle of the pack team. TL shouldn't be a middle of the pack team with the amount of money they pay their jungler. The team will be fighting to get out of relegations and be mediocre after spending some of the most money in the league. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
but whatever, I'll continue cheering for them. pray the stars align and goldenglue is a late-late-late-bloomer. I dunno how they became my team, but all I can do is hope haha =/ | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
Like you cant' blame the bot lane dying in 2v2s as a coaching issue. I can blame them for not getting rid of Matt. Or not helping him overcome his problems faster. Or continuing to have so much faith in Piglet. I'm trying to say that, while it's not their fault that the problems you mentioned started, they deserve the blame for not fixing those problems and creating new ones like Midlet (they had to okay that). | ||
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On May 25 2017 17:16 St3MoR wrote: what you are trying to say is, bottomline: Steve is a problem Steve wasn't around for the first half of the split. You could argue that THAT was a big error on his part, but the people who were in charge in his absence deserve at least some of the blame. | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On May 26 2017 01:21 Zato-1 wrote: Steve wasn't around for the first half of the split. You could argue that THAT was a big error on his part, but the people who were in charge in his absence deserve at least some of the blame. While Steve is in charge of it all as an owner, doesn't all of these operational things for the team itself fall under the head coach's job description? It's his job to facilitate the needs of the coaching team and correct things when they aren't working. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
I view it more akin to how Regi has to come in and whip TSM into shape periodically, except unlike Regi, Steve has a history of staying really close to the team. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
They have one of the most talented rosters in the LPL, I'd put it on par with the likes of RNG even. But the team is a clown fest. Sofm is ridiculously talented, his Lee Sin and Graves are godlike, but at the same time he's probably one of the most toxic players I have seen in a while in the pro scene, he plays like it's soloQ. And they've made some really strange changes to the team, Krystal support, grabbing Ohq for now reason etc. They beat VG to an absolute pulp, they looked like they could be vying for the top of LPL, instead they were fighting in relegation... | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On May 26 2017 05:14 Gahlo wrote: I still hold that NA at MSI was nerfed due to TSM not being able to use Doublelift. Hmm, DoubleLift or WildTurtle... | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On May 26 2017 05:14 Gahlo wrote: I still hold that NA at MSI was nerfed due to TSM not being able to use Doublelift. I mean, that goes without saying. Even if DL wasn't superior both in terms of mechanics and positioning (which he is), TSM losing its main shotcaller for all of Spring Split + MSI was a major handicap. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
How WildTurtle is not utter kryptonite to LCS teams yet is beyond me. Or perhaps that just says something about the quality of players currently in the NA scene. I basically equate Turtle to KiwiKid status. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5148 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On May 26 2017 10:02 NeoIllusions wrote: Goodbye Altec? How WildTurtle is not utter kryptonite to LCS teams yet is beyond me. Or perhaps that just says something about the quality of players currently in the NA scene. I basically equate Turtle to KiwiKid status. Well, who would you take over Turtle? The only players clearly better than him aren't leaving their teams and importing ADC isn't the best idea. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Someone remind me of some games Altec did poorly so I can at least compare them with Turtle at MSI. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Not sure you can compare MSI games due to opposition skill. The fact that he goes to Flyquest instead of another team that is in desperate need like Echo Fox is dissapointing. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
EF apparently just picked up MashMe. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On May 26 2017 10:57 NeoIllusions wrote: Was Altec truly that bad? I've always cheered for him, despite everyone else meme'ing him on discord. Someone remind me of some games Altec did poorly so I can at least compare them with Turtle at MSI. Altec vs. WT? In terms of in-game performance, I think I'd take Altec; at least he's decent in the laning phase. Still, everyone always hails WT as being a great teammate and just a really nice guy, and he has tons of experience, he knows the inner workings of NA's most successful org, he doesn't choke under pressure... I dunno. On paper I'd go with Altec, but maybe Altec wasn't a good fit for Flyquest, and maybe Hai, Lemon and Balls are good friends with Turtle- WT was briefly part of C9/Quantic waaaay back when C9 was still a challenger team called Quantic. EDIT: Reginald wrote: In light of this departure, we are still resolute in our commitment to run a six man roster for the Summer Split. As such, we are announcing our search for a second AD Carry to replace WildTurtle. To recapitulate our goals: we are aiming to have a team dynamic similar to that of C9’s Impact/Ray. Damn, looks like Regi's really pissed off at DL for skipping Spring Split. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 26 2017 03:21 Zato-1 wrote: I'm actually fairly excited for Rift Rivals. On paper, I view NA as being stronger than EU of late, and yet EU always manages to go deeper into Worlds than NA, and now they finished much stronger in MSI. Some head-to-head NA vs. EU action sounds like a lot of fun to me. This is actually a very interesting phenomenon. EU has always done better than NA at international events, but NA has done better in the head to head. For example at last worlds, EU went 0-4 to NA but had a team get to semis. I think that just proves that H2K had literally the easiest draw of all time in Worlds. | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On May 26 2017 22:19 Zato-1 wrote: Damn, looks like Regi's really pissed off at DL for skipping Spring Split. If DL felt he really needed the break, Spring split is the best time to take that break. Summer has traditionally been the try hard split. Riot has made the Spring split slowly count more but summer has always been the split where people turn it up a notch. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On May 27 2017 00:08 GrandInquisitor wrote: This is actually a very interesting phenomenon. EU has always done better than NA at international events, but NA has done better in the head to head. For example at last worlds, EU went 0-4 to NA but had a team get to semis. I think that just proves that H2K had literally the easiest draw of all time in Worlds. Has NA actually done better in the head to head overall? I think EU should be favoured if you include the lower tier teams, NA usually can only make one good team. In recent times NA has it sure, but a lot of that is on G2 not performing until just now. The last battle of the atlantic, although that was long ago, EU went 3-2. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On May 27 2017 02:07 Numy wrote: It's hard to have depth when you have teams unwilling to put in the effort or make the hard decisions to improve. Looking at you Echo Fox. There's also this obsession with getting old talent who don't really cut it anymore in over newer guys constantly. Teams don't want to take the risk on new talent when relegation exists. NA slots actually sell for something. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On May 27 2017 04:10 Sent. wrote: That rule was removed Well that seems incredibly stupid | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On May 27 2017 04:26 Gahlo wrote: Teams don't want to take the risk on new talent when relegation exists. NA slots actually sell for something. Honestly relegation is just a massive excuse. NA teams have always favoured name over talent even before LCS even existed. The slots sell for a lot yet last split there was basically no good team in CS that could take a slot. Languishing in nothing, trying to do nothing but just stay out until franchising is so utterly pathetic. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On May 27 2017 06:28 Numy wrote: Honestly relegation is just a massive excuse. NA teams have always favoured name over talent even before LCS even existed. The slots sell for a lot yet last split there was basically no good team in CS that could take a slot. Languishing in nothing, trying to do nothing but just stay out until franchising is so utterly pathetic. Pre-LCS wasn't long enough to definitive find out who would always be shit forever. I have seen LCS owners say that they don't take risks on unproven talent because relegation fucks you. You get relegated and you're done in League. | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On May 27 2017 07:14 Gahlo wrote: Pre-LCS wasn't long enough to definitive find out who would always be shit forever. I have seen LCS owners say that they don't take risks on unproven talent because relegation fucks you. You get relegated and you're done in League. Dignitas is the only NA team I can remember that was relegated and came back. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On May 27 2017 10:50 lilwisper wrote: Dignitas is the only NA team I can remember that was relegated and came back. And even then, they didn't really. They got bought out along with Apex, who was in LCS, and got renamed. According to Jack and Noah, sponsors offer less money to teams because of the risk of relegations and once you're out of the LCS they don't want to touch you. | ||
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
If somebody pushes you out of LCS and gets your spot 99% they deserved it, c9-challenger-like fiascos should be regulated, but that is another story and has more to do with riot ruling than with the format itself. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On May 27 2017 23:59 JimmiC wrote: Any word on what liquids roster will be next split? Lourlo, ReignOver, Goldenglue, Piglet, Matt. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On May 28 2017 09:32 chipmonklord17 wrote: I think if the meta stays close to the MSI meta (it won't) TL could be in good shape. Any comp that puts Piglet on a Twitch/Kog/Vayne style hyper carry and everyone else protecting him could work out super well. Its a shame its probably not going to stay that way though My best hope for TL comes from them learning the value of following the calls of a shotcaller, as a team, without hesitation- which we saw glimpses of during DL's vacation on the team. If they improve on this, then they should make playoffs. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
big meta buffs for piglet/ro the most important players on the team | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On May 27 2017 10:54 Gahlo wrote: And even then, they didn't really. They got bought out along with Apex, who was in LCS, and got renamed. According to Jack and Noah, sponsors offer less money to teams because of the risk of relegations and once you're out of the LCS they don't want to touch you. Consider the source there. These are people trying to obtain leverage in a situation where they have none. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On May 30 2017 04:50 cLutZ wrote: Consider the source there. These are people trying to obtain leverage in a situation where they have none. Teams are already capable of making much more money with other games. The longer NA LCS stays out of franchising, the more games will be more profitable and ultimately garner more organizational attention. League isn't the golden ticket for Western esports orgs like it used to be. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Essentially NA LCS teams mostly forsake building sustainable business in this mad scramble to get locked in so they can take it easy afterwards. It's all kinds of silly. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On May 30 2017 05:45 Gahlo wrote: Teams are already capable of making much more money with other games. The longer NA LCS stays out of franchising, the more games will be more profitable and ultimately garner more organizational attention. League isn't the golden ticket for Western esports orgs like it used to be. Teams making more money from other games is a direct result of the LCS model and intentional decisions made by Riot. Franchising is meaningless to how much teams make. Riot could 10x the money it pays to teams with or without franchising. This is the only way for teams to make money off of League because Riot insists on maintaining control over basically all productions. In other words, franchising will not change the amount of money team make off League, it will just change which teams end up making that money. Its really just a fundamental misunderstanding of why franchising, and league formats even exist in pro sports (where the league is owned by the franchises by the way). Franchises exist to keep local monopolies over fanbases intact. LCS does not have this, in fact all of its team compete for the same fans. League formats exist to generate gate sales for those local teams (thus also not sensible in LCS where Riot makes very little on gate). | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On May 30 2017 06:02 Numy wrote: Revenue sharing doesn't have to be linked to franchising. The LCS costs so much mainly due to all these people banking on getting indefinite ticket in the future. If Riot just said it's not happening ever maybe the costs wouldn't be so insanely inflated. From the outside it just seems like ridiculously silly investments are going on here but who knows maybe in 10 years time the massive money they dumping will have come back to them. Essentially NA LCS teams mostly forsake building sustainable business in this mad scramble to get locked in so they can take it easy afterwards. It's all kinds of silly. Yes, they don't need franchising for revenue sharing. That is absolutely true. VC investors are getting in on it because they think waiting out until franchising comes in is worth the short term expense. If it goes longer and loger without happening then the VC will start pulling out. We saw that already with Ember, where their backers pulled out because they didn't want to spot another (I think it was) half million for another split of challenger which nobody watch and no sponsors care about. So if all the VC pull out, then the teams will need revenue sharing. Riot has shown 0 interest in doing so as of yet outside of the stipend, which is laughable compared to when it was put in place. Hell, Riot doesn't even open it up to large revenue stream in general. How long ago was it that LCS was sponsored by Coke? When was the last time they did advertisements like they used to do for the start of a GoT season or a big movie? The LCS broadcast is on message at all times, League of Legends for the sake of League of Legends. On May 30 2017 06:08 cLutZ wrote: Teams making more money from other games is a direct result of the LCS model and intentional decisions made by Riot. Franchising is meaningless to how much teams make. Riot could 10x the money it pays to teams with or without franchising. This is the only way for teams to make money off of League because Riot insists on maintaining control over basically all productions. In other words, franchising will not change the amount of money team make off League, it will just change which teams end up making that money. Its really just a fundamental misunderstanding of why franchising, and league formats even exist in pro sports (where the league is owned by the franchises by the way). Franchises exist to keep local monopolies over fanbases intact. LCS does not have this, in fact all of its team compete for the same fans. League formats exist to generate gate sales for those local teams (thus also not sensible in LCS where Riot makes very little on gate). Teams have outright said that sponsors are less willing to pay more where a bad split suddenly has that investment no longer in the competitive scene. As a result, less successful teams like EnvyUs are already more likely to get passed up for better teams like TSM and C9 in addition to the risk of that team not existing in a relevant manner. Hell, the only reason TSM is able to survive without being a VC team(and the only one afaik) is because they have the largest fanbase, are never worse than a top 2 team in playoffs, and go to most international tournaments. Even then, they're basically capped on what they can do. Look at TL/Curse, they were never a low tier team and made playoffs every split, but this time they collapsed hard out of the blue and probably only exist in League today because TSM/Doublelift was willing to make a deal. There's a lot of talk about how western orgs need to get better, but there is no avenue to do that. There is no stability for investors with the existence of relegations and there is no room for growth when a lack of revenue sharing limits their ability to do that. As a last note, comparing franchising of LCS to sports is a silly idea anyway. The NFL isn't the sole proprieter of footballs and football equipment. NFL doesn't own football. Same way MLB doesn't own baseball, NHL doesn't own hockey, MLS doesn't own soccer, and the NBA doesn't own basketball. Riot don't need to make a killing at the gate, because if people are watching LCS they're viewing afternoon long advertisements for it and probably talking about it. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
So... | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
At the same time, the added stability is probably a good incentive for owners who are willing to invest big time in an attempt to become a top team, thus increasing competition at the top. I guess I'm mildly hopeful overall for the changes. NA really needs more teams giving C9 and TSM a run for their money if they want to win Worlds at some point, and the old system clearly wasn't managing to give them that competition. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On June 02 2017 02:34 Fildun wrote: Now I might have read incorrectly, but it looks like all revenue from teams will be distributed by Riot. Is that correct? As according to the franchise agreement. Media Rights/Distrobution should be an overwhelming portion of the income pool. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
On June 02 2017 02:34 Fildun wrote: Now I might have read incorrectly, but it looks like all revenue from teams will be distributed by Riot. Is that correct? nope Only a portion of revenues that a team makes is added to the revenue pool. Teams will retain a large portion of any sponsorship they help to sell, just as they keep a piece of all merch sales, before their sharing contribution is calculated. This is where business-savvy teams can start to earn more than other teams in the field, but it still aligns teams to work together to grow league revenues as a whole. Riot will keep a chunk of the revenue they generate Teams will keep a chunk of the revenue they generate as well. The other chunks will be added to the pool to be distributed So TSM will probably still make more money than the other teams, but they will also give up a larger chunk of it to support the league in general. Same thing as regular sports where the rich teams sorta give money to the poor teams they beat up on. Not enough to stop being rich, but enough to maintain a little bit of parity makes sense because without the poor teams there is no league for the rich teams to sell themselves and make money. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
https://store.solomid.net/collections/playoffs-2017/products/2017-black-and-grey-trucker https://store.solomid.net/collections/sweaters/products/2015-grey-player-hoodie-with-name https://store.solomid.net/collections/sweaters/products/fk-it-baylife-hoodie https://store.solomid.net/collections/sweaters/products/tsm-jacket | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Hoodies are based on player name. FK IT Baylife isn't, but I could see an argument on it being so because of the time TSM started using that phrase. That would come down to how far Riot wants to nitpick, but I don't think it'd be much of an impact anyway. The jackets no, because they aren't League specific branded(comfy as fuck though). | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Its gonna be great popcorn. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
how do you tell if the money say, Razer, is giving Liquid is LoL money or Dota/Csgo/whatever money? | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/echo-fox-challenger-imaqtpie-dyrus-14987 | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
Oh, there's this. (it got deleted) ![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/w8Db6/1ea0adcb94.png) | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
So now they have an inhouse team they practice with. The actual LCS team and this NACS team. I've been critical of EF for keeping Keith but these moves seem pretty dam solid. Fuck I'm hyped as shit man. edit: @Krepo - Situation is really shit man. It's hard from the outside to know what actually went down. If it was just an honest mistake of trusting this girl in consensual exchange then I feel for him. Hope he bounces back, sex is something everyone does and we shouldn't be vilified for consenting adults. If it was more malicious then steps should be taken beyond him stepping down. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
On June 02 2017 21:46 Ansibled wrote: https://twitter.com/Krepo/status/870622018869354496 How likely it is that it wasn't his decision and Riot told him to fuck off? | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On June 02 2017 23:15 Sent. wrote: How likely it is that it wasn't his decision and Riot told him to fuck off? A small chance. I don't think so, though. EU already has a huge dearth of casting talent. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
I'd love if the picture is how their line up will be. Shiphtur top. Voy jungle. Qty mid. Dyrus adc. Scarra support. Next level wtf. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
On June 02 2017 22:43 Numy wrote: sex is something everyone does ![[image loading]](https://media3.giphy.com/media/IQ47VvDzlzx9S/giphy.gif) User was warned for this post (meme/image only post) | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
Hall also believes long-time fans will be excited to see this group of name stars competing on the same team. “When these guys play, you’re going to see high level play unlike anywhere else,” said Hall. “Honestly, we not only did this for the fans but for the entire tapestry of the video game culture which speaks to the potential longevity of esport athletes. We talked to the former pros and we knew they wanted to get back in. It’s what they wanted and it’s what their fans wanted. All we’re doing is helping facilitate something really fun and cool for esports.” I'm choking. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On June 03 2017 01:56 Ansibled wrote: www.echofox.gg/news/streaming-all-stars-assemble-for-echo-fox-league-of-legends-challenger-dream-team I'm choking. So will Echo Fox. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 03 2017 06:08 Sent. wrote: Is Shiptur really so bad he can't be a real pro anymore? At his best he was a poor man's Froggen. That style is super outdated. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On June 03 2017 06:08 Sent. wrote: Is Shiptur really so bad he can't be a real pro anymore? He was a pro a year after he got to that point. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On June 03 2017 06:50 cLutZ wrote: At his best he was a poor man's Froggen. That style is super outdated. How can you do Froggen like that | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Good point. Homeless man's Froggen | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
https://twitter.com/Bjergsen/status/871942917933355008/photo/1 https://twitter.com/TSMDoublelift/status/871918137834209280/photo/1 | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/2069/interview-with-tl-piglet-and-his-open-letter-to-his-teammates So much better than your typical say-nothing interviews. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On June 06 2017 23:46 GrandInquisitor wrote: The Piglet interview is craaaazy https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/2069/interview-with-tl-piglet-and-his-open-letter-to-his-teammates So much better than your typical say-nothing interviews. He got so traumatized by the beating mid laners gave him his mind made up a complete fabrication. That's why you don't test the Froggo guys. He kind of sounds like the opposite of aphromoo too me. Aphro wanted to carry but switched to a supporting role and learnt how to carry through the calls he can make. Instead of just relying on raw skill if Piglet became like this all these years ago I doubt TL would have the same issues now. Like he talks as if he's just moved over to NA but he's really played in NA for basically as long as KR so it reads super weird. If there has been these issues all the time, is he not trying to fix them? Stepping up to the plate? | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On June 07 2017 00:14 Numy wrote: He got so traumatized by the beating mid laners gave him his mind made up a complete fabrication. That's why you don't test the Froggo guys. He kind of sounds like the opposite of aphromoo too me. Aphro wanted to carry but switched to a supporting role and learnt how to carry through the calls he can make. Instead of just relying on raw skill if Piglet became like this all these years ago I doubt TL would have the same issues now. Like he talks as if he's just moved over to NA but he's really played in NA for basically as long as KR so it reads super weird. If there has been these issues all the time, is he not trying to fix them? Stepping up to the plate? Next up TL can try Piglet support, since he apparently is never leaving the roster until he retires. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 07 2017 00:42 Sent. wrote: It's hard to understand Piglet being so critical towards his team and following that with "I think our botlane is perfect". To be fair Piglet is 12/4/4, leads ADCs in damage % and has the lowest death %. Meanwhile TL's midlaners got 1 kill in 4 games and are both bottom 3 in kill participation. I don't know about perfect, but so far this split he is pretty far down the list of blame. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On June 07 2017 01:22 GrandInquisitor wrote: To be fair Piglet is 12/4/4, leads ADCs in damage % and has the lowest death %. Meanwhile TL's midlaners got 1 kill in 4 games and are both bottom 3 in kill participation. I don't know about perfect, but so far this split he is pretty far down the list of blame. Haven't watched a TL game this season, but is he playing like a bitch? If so, KDA is unimpressive. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 07 2017 01:27 Gahlo wrote: Haven't watched a TL game this season, but is he playing like a bitch? If so, KDA is unimpressive. I don't know what you consider to be "playing like a bitch" - he's not WildTurtling but he also does lead the league in damage % for an ADC, so he can't be that much of a bitch. Part of that is surely that he got to play Juggermaw one game. But if he really were just going purely for KDA he would probably at least be closer to average or the bottom rather than first in damage %. Besides the more general point still stands. I'm the last person that would say KDA proves who's the best player. But it doesn't matter what your playstyle is, if your mid is averaging 0.25 kills per game while your ADC is averaging 12 times that, like, sure, maybe your ADC isn't 12x better than your mid laner, and he has things he can do better, but he's probably also justified in thinking these losses are not his fault. That being said I'd never say "perfect", not when you started 0-4. Dang. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
I think both TL and piglet can be good but need a mutual split for a "win win". Small sample size and all but dardoch/xmithie trade is a potential example of how its not a zero sum game and both can come out for the better. Think piglet fits a different team better and TL needs a different type of player than piglet. I actually hoped the h2k piglet rumor was true a while ago since I think they are one of the teams that could have used him well. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
TL has never really had a leader since IWD left, and even he wasn't the someone who could lead/shotcall at the top of NA. If Piglet really wants to win, he needs to step up and be a leader. Something like doublelift transformed into. Is it okay what he's doing now? sure. He can be a mechanical cog in the machine. But he can't expect to be anything more if he himself doesnt' want to lead. It reads like blame and nothing else. I feel zero sympathy. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
On June 07 2017 02:10 chipmonklord17 wrote: Really good interview but, and maybe I'm going insane, weren't Piglet's mid stats some of the worst in the league? How was he going off about how good he was mid, or am I just wrong? Probably meant scrims. | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On June 07 2017 02:11 Kaneh wrote: piglet just isn't a leader and has never been. TL has never really had a leader since IWD left, and even he wasn't the someone who could lead/shotcall at the top of NA. If Piglet really wants to win, he needs to step up and be a leader. Something like doublelift transformed into. Is it okay what he's doing now? sure. He can be a mechanical cog in the machine. But he can't expect to be anything more if he himself doesnt' want to lead. It reads like blame and nothing else. I feel zero sympathy. When I read it, things don't add up to me. If he was this frustrated, it would have been brought up a long time ago in team meetings. How would an org just blow over their "star player"? If he felt like comms were a mess, why wouldn't he bring it up and say we need to be more clear? He is the "star player", so it's not like he would be ignored. He doesn't seem like the type that can just simmer and seethe when he is frustrated, but if he is, it's his fault for not stepping up. Like you said, he needs to lead and not just be a "star player" As of now, he's the senior player, heck he's been the senior player for a while. If he was so frustrated, he should have stepped up and said something or at the very worst, pull rank somewhat. I don't mean it like a hostile takeover but more like "hey do it this way and let the results speak". I know it was a joke question but if Vayne is the champ he is known for, why wouldn't TL build around it? You don't want to play comps that revolve around your best player's best champ? Seems off. I am sure Echo Fox has at least 3-4 comps around Froggen's Anivia, even when Anivia wasn't even an after thought on people's minds. If TL was scrapping the barrel for wins, wouldn't that be a first choice in what to do to change things around? | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On June 07 2017 01:50 dsyxelic wrote: I don't really think of it as a "who gets X amount of blame" I think both TL and piglet can be good but need a mutual split for a "win win". Small sample size and all but dardoch/xmithie trade is a potential example of how its not a zero sum game and both can come out for the better. Think piglet fits a different team better and TL needs a different type of player than piglet. I actually hoped the h2k piglet rumor was true a while ago since I think they are one of the teams that could have used him well. I think Immortals got a way better deal though, CLG with Xmithie would look a lot better if Zion/Aphro were playing in their current form. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On June 07 2017 03:57 Ansibled wrote: I think Immortals got a way better deal though, CLG with Xmithie would look a lot better if Zion/Aphro were playing in their current form. It's possible they needed a change to hit their current form though. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
If he can't then well you just spent a million dollars on a player that doesn't fulfill the role you were looking for. If he can and nobody listens, well then TL are fucked from the bottom up. Just look at TSM's quest for the perfect shot caller. Guess what, they're really fucking rare, and sometimes people need to stop bitching and step up to the plate (see Hauntzer last split). | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Interview with TLSteve on current situation (both roster and franchise) Currently watching, so I have no definitive opinion yet. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
He's can't outright say "we have no shotcaller/leader, and there are none available" but he sure came close to saying it a couple times. i dunno. I'll just cheer and hope that they can win a few games. Maybe someone will tell piglet that if he wants to win he needs to actually act like a veteran player and start leading. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On June 08 2017 19:28 St3MoR wrote: I wonder who the main shotcaller for IMT2016 was, and specially if they had none, what is the difference in communication between that team and TL2017 to make RO sort of implode Strong solo laners. A bot lane that was willing to move around/play for the team and sac laning phase if they had to for the team. A united sense of aggression and willingness to do things. RO right now has no pressure mid lane, no pressure bot and no pressure top. He's playing poorly but it's also a very shit situation for a jungler. I get the impression that everyone on TL is essentially playing for themselves and not their team. Their concept of "winning" is doing well individually instead of doing well as a team. As a side note that's why guys like Huhi are pretty good mid laners for international play. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On June 08 2017 06:48 Yorbon wrote: https://esports.yahoo.com/steve-arhancet-liquid-lcs-interview-180000089.html Interview with TLSteve on current situation (both roster and franchise) Currently watching, so I have no definitive opinion yet. Just watched this. And while everyone is talking about Goldenglue etc I thought the part where he talked about franchising and the NA LCS future was actually the most interesting. He seemed very content with the system Riot wants to implement and had a lot of praise for them. Travis was surprised about that after orgs and Riot had been butting heads last split. Steve also seemed to think that the 10 mio entry fee was rather modest and Riot could have asked way more. It probably helps Riot that Blizzard is doing a similar thing atm and orgs are less happy with them. Also good to hear that teams are apparently not only looking out for themselves but aim to grow the system as a whole. There will be quite a bit of revenue sharing between more and less successful orgs after all. It is very interesting that EU and NA will go with a completely different model and we will be able to directly compare things. I think it will lead to the financial gap becoming much bigger than it already is. People that were complaining about NA favouritism when it came to the most trivial shit will get something to actually complain about. If that translates to more success ingame remains to be seen ofc but I think we will see even more players wanting to go to NA. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On June 08 2017 20:39 Numy wrote: I get the impression that everyone on TL is essentially playing for themselves and not their team. Their concept of "winning" is doing well individually instead of doing well as a team. As a side note that's why guys like Huhi are pretty good mid laners for international play. Indeed and I believe this attitude is personified and reinforced by Piglet since the start. I felt this since the very first Rebirth videos showed him not wanting to talk to Fenix because he thought he was beneath him, the world champion. You would think TL made it a priority to stomp this out but from the latest Piglet interview it becomes obvious that this "me>you" attitude is alive and well after years. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On June 09 2017 00:11 JimmiC wrote: Too me the issue is piglet doesn't have the carry potential to make it worth his import slot, and his attitude. They have moved a lot of other pieces around to try to accommodate him and its not working. I disagree. I see an arrogant tone from him in this interview, but whenever they interview one of his teammates, they say he's a really nice guy. I might have agreed with Piglet being part of the problem last split, especially at the start with the whole Lethality meta thing going on, but this split Piglet is the only cog that seems to actually be working on TL. I don't think he's perfect, but I do think he's literally the last person you should be blaming for TL's current condition. Biggest culprit in TL, to me, is Steve. TL makes this big announcement about new business partners who brought with them the kind of money TL needed to afford its dream roster... and ends up with a roster downgrade instead (Reignover instead of Moon + Dardoch was considered an upgrade at the time, but nowhere near enough to compensate the downgrade from Fenix to goldenglue). Even then, TL ends up playing a lot worse than you'd expect from the skill of its players, due to poor in-game synergy and overall decisionmaking- this is down to poor coaching and analysts, which are not the fault of any of TL's players, it's a management fault. Heck, TL might not even be in the LCS were it not for the coincidence that Doublelift was conveniently available just when they needed him. Piglet's interview is fairly nasty, and even makes me question if he's a Piglet from an alternate timeline where he wasn't an atrocious midlaner last split, but when you're inside a trainwreck in slow motion, tempers are bound to flare up. I don't think he pulled his weight last split, but he seems to be the only one in the team who IS pulling his weight in this one. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On June 09 2017 06:10 Zato-1 wrote:I disagree. I see an arrogant tone from him in this interview, but whenever they interview one of his teammates, they say he's a really nice guy. Of course they say he's a nice guy in an interview. If they don't, odds are they're going to get booted off the team in short order. If Link were ever on the starting lineup for TL, he would probably write a 10,000 page treatise on everything wrong with Piglet's attitude after leaving. I'm actually really sad he never got to start, because I was looking forward to the potential there. Been saying it for a long time, Piglet has been the problem for ages. And it is rooted in management bending over backwards for him, while simultaneously being really awful decision makers on top of that. Of course the two of those are intrinsically linked, because if they weren't awful decision makers they probably would have never picked up Piglet in the first place. The cynic in me says they knew what they were getting and they picked him up because of his "star power" to attract fandom, and not because of talent. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On June 08 2017 23:28 Redox wrote: It is very interesting that EU and NA will go with a completely different model and we will be able to directly compare things. I think it will lead to the financial gap becoming much bigger than it already is. People that were complaining about NA favouritism when it came to the most trivial shit will get something to actually complain about. If that translates to more success ingame remains to be seen ofc but I think we will see even more players wanting to go to NA. Well took them long enough but seems the complaining has started. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/6g8532/ocelote_it_is_a_possibility_for_g2_to_move_to_na/ I do not see how G2 could just chose to move to NA LCS though. It is Riot's call after all who they take into the league and who not. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
So I think EU LCS has to move to a geographical system much like in China if they want to make CS meaningful. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On June 09 2017 23:36 GrandInquisitor wrote: At the end of the day there just isn't a reason to be a fan of a lower-tier team in the Challenger Series. It's different in soccer, because you have local loyalties to your hometown club team. But what reason does anyone have to become a fan of a CS team? So I think EU LCS has to move to a geographical system much like in China if they want to make CS meaningful. I never really got why we want to try force the beauty of esports in that it transcends boundaries to then be tied back to boundaries in an old system. Rather sad to me. Lower tier clubs in EPL etc. also get support from outside of the country that don't give a shit about the actual location, why is this? Why are there so many dam Crystal Palace and Newcastle supporters in my region when none of them have ever been there? It's just lazy thinking that we need to somehow go back to this old system to make it "worthwhile" for the teams. Who's fault is it that league has massively overinflated salaries and costs? Surely the teams need to take some responsibility for it instead of crying/demanding riot fixes their poor business practices for them. It's a strange world where companies are asking for direct handouts and communism with people in the west cheering it on as the best solution. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 09 2017 23:40 Numy wrote: I never really got why we want to try force the beauty of esports in that it transcends boundaries to then be tied back to boundaries in an old system. Rather sad to me. Lower tier clubs in EPL etc. also get support from outside of the country that don't give a shit about the actual location, why is this? Why are there so many dam Crystal Palace and Newcastle supporters in my region when none of them have ever been there? It's just lazy thinking that we need to somehow go back to this old system to make it "worthwhile" for the teams. Who's fault is it that league has massively overinflated salaries and costs? Surely the teams need to take some responsibility for it instead of crying/demanding riot fixes their poor business practices for them. It's a strange world where companies are asking for direct handouts and communism with people in the west cheering it on as the best solution. Yes. The franchise model is a dinosaur from 1920s baseball that is bad for leagues and bad for fans long-term. Riot and Blizzard trying to go down that path is simply as marketing to mainstream sports teams and investors for $$, but bjergson's salary being $150k or $500k does not improve the quality of his play substantially. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
In any case it will lead to a big financial disparity between NA LCS and the other leagues. I would not be surprised if it will end in all the best players (including Faker etc) wanting to go there and NA LCS becoming THE LoL league. The "3 residents" rule will prevent NA LCS teams from becoming the best teams though, but then again who knows if that rule stays forever. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
Interesting interview with a couple of owners including G2's Ocelote with an outside perspective. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Revenue sharing, streaming rights, merchandising etc. all don't actually require franchising to happen anyway. I believe every team in the EPL signs into a collection that gives them some of these benefits each season. It's also a case of more money for business doesn't equate to higher levels of competition. We can see that already when teams like GAM can go toe to toe with the best NA has to offer and EU as a whole being less funded still competing better on average. Does it benefit the players? Currently players, especially local skilled players have an insane amount of power in the scene. The supply is low and demand is high. Teams have to be competitive so they have to have these kinds of players. If they no longer required to be competitive that takes away a huge chunk of power from them. So the players now lose out. Which is partly why a union is so important. We don't know how the union will play out in the long run so it's tough to say. So at the end of the day who benefits the most out of it? Personally am the view that mediocrity is what gets the most out of the deal. My belief is that Ocelote is just trying to get a more beneficial sharing split out of Riot EU while not having that big a case to really make here. ps: I always find it interesting how these owners claim they operate at losses in league while other gaming scenes generate way more profit for them. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On June 10 2017 00:55 Numy wrote: ps: I always find it interesting how these owners claim they operate at losses in league while other gaming scenes generate way more profit for them. It's cause it's a way lower investment in other scenes + avenues for revenue. Skins in CSGO are super popular. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On June 10 2017 00:55 Numy wrote: Franchising being better for business isn't necessarily a given, especially at the top end. Teams like G2/Fnatic/TSM/C9 may not really get any actual benefit from franchising as they are in a position that there is never a risk to them. And yet they (well the NA teams) were asking for it and ready to pay 10 mio to get it. It is not so much Riot that needs franchising to happen. Of course investor money will also play a big role with the established teams. Weldon in his AMA was also predicting salaries in NA to rise and EU becoming jelous soon. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On June 10 2017 01:18 Redox wrote: And yet they (well the NA teams) were asking for it and ready to pay 10 mio to get it. It is not so much Riot that needs franchising to happen. Of course investor money will also play a big role with the established teams. Weldon in his AMA was also predicting salaries in NA to rise and EU becoming jelous soon. Not to mention that in franchising, the teams get a cut of that $300m that Riot got from MLB over the next 6 years. In the recently linked video, Reginald said that getting sponsors was difficult at times for him because relegation existed. If the owner of the team that has never fared worse than 2nd in LCS/since S2 is getting people tip toeing about investing, that shows how big a deterrent it was. NA salaries will rise as they're currently underpaid for their reach, but the economics of the scene in their current state makes it prohibitive to spend more. I don't know how EU is going to get around this hump unless more futball teams hop into the scene. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On June 10 2017 02:06 Gahlo wrote: Not to mention that in franchising, the teams get a cut of that $300m that Riot got from MLB over the next 6 years. In the recently linked video, Reginald said that getting sponsors was difficult at times for him because relegation existed. If the owner of the team that has never fared worse than 2nd in LCS/since S2 is getting people tip toeing about investing, that shows how big a deterrent it was. NA salaries will rise as they're currently underpaid for their reach, but the economics of the scene in their current state makes it prohibitive to spend more. I don't know how EU is going to get around this hump unless more futball teams hop into the scene. That sounds pretty fucking suspect to me. You telling the head of marketing or a marketing rep at a company will look at TSM and say "Hmm there's a 0.001% chance they fall out of the league but even then there's possibly that only cuts reach by a few % points, I'm just not willing to put that money in then because of this!!!!". Riot made it virtually impossible for team to get relegated in LCS now as well before this change. Not to mention there's all this money flowing in to the league at the same time there's this massive issue of can't find sponsors? Sounds like the biggest load of horse shit I have ever seen. Why would they need franchising to get the cut of the 300m? Also where did you get the impression NA players are underpaid? All the talk is how massively inflated their worth is due to VC money coming into the scene like the ember guys pushing salaries through the roof. They are supposedly losing money on league, that doesn't sound like underpaid to me. I don't know man. The whole NA LCS scene just reeks of terrible business hoping for some magical payout from Riot to save themselves. Well guess they going to get the magical payout eventually at this rate. Wonder if they will actually start trying to run an efficient business once Riot does this. It's essentially a bunch of people trying to be first ones to the door while not worrying about creating something in the current, they'll just worry about it later. edit: I realize this may come off a bit strong, didn't intend for that. I just dislike taking anything these owners say at face value as we've had years of them misrepresenting the truth or outright lying to us. The way I see it is that there are two aspects of business or anything involving money. Money and control. Companies tend to lean towards having control over making money. This move maximized their control in the scene. It's debatable if it maximized the money as well but that seems more secondary to me. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 10 2017 02:06 Gahlo wrote: Not to mention that in franchising, the teams get a cut of that $300m that Riot got from MLB over the next 6 years. In the recently linked video, Reginald said that getting sponsors was difficult at times for him because relegation existed. If the owner of the team that has never fared worse than 2nd in LCS/since S2 is getting people tip toeing about investing, that shows how big a deterrent it was. NA salaries will rise as they're currently underpaid for their reach, but the economics of the scene in their current state makes it prohibitive to spend more. I don't know how EU is going to get around this hump unless more futball teams hop into the scene. Reginald is likely misinterpreting negotiating positions for the actual beliefs of sponsors (who's job it is to pay the least for the most exposure). The reason LCS teams have been getting squeezed is VC firms were anticipating this $300M broadcasting deal and that teams would get a cut. Now that the deal has been finalized, and the revenue splits announced, salaries will hit an equilibrium point. The $10M fee to get in is irrelevant, because there is no way to access that money (or really any LOL money) without paying it. Indeed, as people have discussed as well, the entire appeal of franchising is it will likely drive down, or at least stem the increases in player salaries. And Numy, you aren't coming off strong, you are just not buying the "Official Lie" | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On June 10 2017 04:35 cLutZ wrote: Reginald is likely misinterpreting negotiating positions for the actual beliefs of sponsors (who's job it is to pay the least for the most exposure). The reason LCS teams have been getting squeezed is VC firms were anticipating this $300M broadcasting deal and that teams would get a cut. Now that the deal has been finalized, and the revenue splits announced, salaries will hit an equilibrium point. The $10M fee to get in is irrelevant, because there is no way to access that money (or really any LOL money) without paying it. Indeed, as people have discussed as well, the entire appeal of franchising is it will likely drive down, or at least stem the increases in player salaries. And Numy, you aren't coming off strong, you are just not buying the "Official Lie" What official lie? Like yours and Numys posts read like you reveal something but I can not figure out what it actually is. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On June 10 2017 03:54 Numy wrote: That sounds pretty fucking suspect to me. You telling the head of marketing or a marketing rep at a company will look at TSM and say "Hmm there's a 0.001% chance they fall out of the league but even then there's possibly that only cuts reach by a few % points, I'm just not willing to put that money in then because of this!!!!". Riot made it virtually impossible for team to get relegated in LCS now as well before this change.(1) Not to mention there's all this money flowing in to the league at the same time there's this massive issue of can't find sponsors? Sounds like the biggest load of horse shit I have ever seen.(2) Why would they need franchising to get the cut of the 300m?(3) Also where did you get the impression NA players are underpaid? All the talk is how massively inflated their worth is due to VC money coming into the scene like the ember guys pushing salaries through the roof.(4) They are supposedly losing money on league, that doesn't sound like underpaid to me.(5) I don't know man. The whole NA LCS scene just reeks of terrible business hoping for some magical payout from Riot to save themselves. Well guess they going to get the magical payout eventually at this rate. Wonder if they will actually start trying to run an efficient business once Riot does this.(6) 1. Again, going to bring up TL. A team who was consistently 4+ in league play and always made playoffs for the last 3 years. Then this year happened and it took DL to put on a superman cape and save TL from relegation at a slim 3-2 margin. 2. Some of these teams are only kept afloat by VC backing because of expected franchising down the line. Sure, TSM has a bunch of sponsors, but how many does teams not named TSM, C9, CLG, and TL have? VC are going to put in enough money for these teams to stay afloat and little else. If they think they can't get franchising, they're gone. In the case of Ember, they didn't want to wait through another split of Challenger and they all left. 3. The MLB deal is with Riot. There is no revenue sharing in the current ecosystem. Could Riot distribute that outside of a franchising system? Yes, but they have shown no desire to do so outside of the stipend before this deal, which includes franchising. They don't want to hand off loads of money to a crap team who can just then tank, get relegated, and walk off with a huge payday. 4. When Ember came about and had super high contracts, there was a discussion in one of Thorin's videos with Monte about how large they were for who they were. Monte said that even then they were still undervalued. The demographics that esports hits is one that is harder and harder to advertise to due to so many people not having TV anymore. Esports players also have massive social media followings which adds further outreach. He cited a conversation he had with investors that dealt with fucking surfing competitions that were baffled these guys got paid so little. 5. Then tell me why last year we had a big pushback from Riot against franchising but all of the sudden they're super on board with it? There's a reason why the "I love me some Regi" meme exists. Riot was under the impression that teams like TSM were taking money they got from League and shifting it off into other esports and instead of complaining they need franchising to keep that money in the League ecosystem. But, Regi said in a video with Rioters present, that he personally showed his books to Riot and showed him how crappy League was profit wise. In another video, Regi said he was making more off of CSGO than League. This was a time when he had at worst a top 2 NA League team and a CSGO team that couldn't even making it into a fucking major. 6. You can say that all you want, but everything we've heard is that the ecosystem in the current setup is in a really poor spot as far as expanding further. Until franchising, this is pretty much as good as it can get. This isn't Korea where most of the teams have chaebol(s?) behind them or China where some billionaire's son thinks it's a cool hobby to own a team. Team owners have laid out how the system currently is and why it's bad. I haven't seen Riot push back against that for a while now and are going along with this willingly. Montecristo, despite not even being in the League scene anymore, is still fully in favor of this while not even having anything to gain from it. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
The current system is bad partly because of all these VCs coming in with the promise of franchising. I do wonder if it would have gotten to this point if riot flat out said no franchising all those years ago and instead talked about other ways of sharing revenue without it. Just think this isn't necessarily the way to build a sustainable league of legends scene going into the future that will benefit both the players and me as a viewer. Would TL being relegated be so bad? Riot over the years had made it insanely favoured for LCS teams to the point where I think it's virtually impossible for the 2nd to last place team to get relegated and pretty hard for last place team. TL has kind of hovered at the just outside the top competition forever and slipped down over the years. Would it have been so bad if they took a season off? I know this is in the context of sponsorship money but still think it's worthwhile question to ask. Also don't really understand, do sponsors not want to have 1 year deals or multi year deals with clauses in? | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
If you want to get a look at a League scene without the prospect of franchising, look at EU. Players there are paid far less on average than NA from everything I've heard. Whether they could have implemented revenue sharing or not without franchising, I don't know, I just know they haven't made an effort to outside of the laughable team icon shares. If teams have more money, they can pay players better. They can make sister teams without having to develop new talent without the risk of losing it if they qualify or take a loss if they can't. As for TL, I don't have much care if they're in or not. The point was that they had decent, stable results for years and then suddenly took a nosedive this year. Nobody is immune to this. That is something that makes sponsors tentative at best and drives them away at worst. No team in NA has been relegated and came back. The closest thing was Dignitas getting relegated and bought out for their name by the Sixers. Otherwise the team would still be called Apex. Most teams that get relegated dissolve immediately because they no longer have funding in any form. I haven't seen or heard about how long sponsor deals are, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was on a per split basis. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 10 2017 05:44 Redox wrote: What official lie? Like yours and Numys posts read like you reveal something but I can not figure out what it actually is. It basically boils down to all of the people "in the know" all have the exact same incentives regarding franchising (its good for them). Here is the TLDR narrative: The current LCS model is unsustainable because expenses are greater than revenue. Franchising is the way to fix this. Reality: The current LCS model is unsustainable because there was an investment boom (that could have been a bubble, but has turned out not to be, probably) because investors anticipated there would be a media rights contract & that teams would get a cut of those media rights. Riot could have deflated the bubble at any time by announcing: 1) It was unlikely that there would be a broadcast rights contract anytime soon or revenue sharing in that contract; or 2) Signing a rights deal and announcing the rev sharing numbers. Once 1 or 2 happened we would no longer be in a speculative environment and salaries/valuations would stabilize at or around a level where teams can be rev neutral or profitable. Franchising is just scenario #2 + a windfall for teams that are selected. In other words, LCS was only ever unsustainable because Riot did not communicate their intentions clearly about rev sharing and franchising, so the teams seized the narrative to push franchising. This also happens to appeal to Riot's preference to micromanage the professional LOL scene, so they like the narrative as well. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On June 10 2017 11:42 cLutZ wrote: I mean, that sort of breakdown is an anti-franchiser's worst case. The difference between #1 and #10 is less than a million per year? That is 10 years at the top to recoup the franchise fee, more if your salaries ever exceed the 35% number. The 10m buy in is 5m upfront and the rest is over time. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
How much do you think TSM could make if they got a deal where everyone on thier team tweeted about a product. Literally point at the followers bjerg/doublelift have, check out thier age group and you're telling me no company will pay tens of thousands for some sellout tweets? Its like they're just as popular, if not more so, than most streamers, but can't monetize properly because they're not streaming? Someone needs to explain to me why they can't make good money of a dude with literally a million twitter followers. If bjerg tweeted out that he just beat doublelift in an *oreo* eating contest, how much do you think that would be worth? I dunno. maybe someone with more info or a better viewpoint sees something i don't, but I look at thier popularity, and the market segment they reach (insanely hard to reach otherwise) and I can see a lot of big companies that would want a piece of it. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
She really sounds like she gets what teaching is all about which is pretty awesome. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On June 09 2017 14:30 zer0das wrote: Of course they say he's a nice guy in an interview. If they don't, odds are they're going to get booted off the team in short order. If Link were ever on the starting lineup for TL, he would probably write a 10,000 page treatise on everything wrong with Piglet's attitude after leaving. I'm actually really sad he never got to start, because I was looking forward to the potential there. Been saying it for a long time, Piglet has been the problem for ages. And it is rooted in management bending over backwards for him, while simultaneously being really awful decision makers on top of that. Of course the two of those are intrinsically linked, because if they weren't awful decision makers they probably would have never picked up Piglet in the first place. The cynic in me says they knew what they were getting and they picked him up because of his "star power" to attract fandom, and not because of talent. Yeah, no. Covering your ass in front of the cameras sounds like this: "Yeah, I get along just fine with Piglet". What I actually hear his teammates saying is more along the lines of, "Oh yeah, I get along great with Piglet! People from the outside speculate that it's hard to get along with him, but that's not true at all, he's a really nice guy!" I'm not going to go looking for the video where I saw that, but the impression I got was not of someone being politically correct, but rather of someone genuinely getting along really well with Piglet. I also haven't heard of anyone in TL getting along poorly with Piglet. Ever. I've never been a fan of Piglet, myself. I historically thought he was an overrated player and not someone you should build your team around. That said, I also don't think it's fair to blame Piglet for all of TL's failures, and that it's wrong to accuse him of having serious attitude problems. To quote again the post that started this exchange: On June 09 2017 00:11 JimmiC wrote: Too me the issue is piglet doesn't have the carry potential to make it worth his import slot, and his attitude. They have moved a lot of other pieces around to try to accommodate him and its not working. I agree that TL trying to build a team around Piglet hasn't worked; that much is pretty evident. I just don't see any evidence whatsoever of Piglet being toxic. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Adrian and Altec to Dig | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On June 17 2017 06:26 Gahlo wrote: Xpecial to P1 Adrian and Altec to Dig Upgrades all around. At worst Altec might be a sidegrade | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
To achieve this, the event is being expanded to include a double-round robin Bo1 Group Stage with a Bo5 final between the top team from each region based on Group Stage results. This means that Rift Rivals will now be a 4 day event, with the Group Stage spanning 3 days and Finals on the last day. This means that there will no longer be a Last Man Standing final. Although Last Man Standing is an exciting elimination showdown between two regions, executing Bo3 in that format would have lead to a potentially long final day of games that would require us to start the broadcast at an inconvenient time for NA viewers. It is something that we’ll consider in the future, but we think that the current format offers a healthy mix of varied matchups as well as a conclusive final. Yay? | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On June 22 2017 06:03 JimmiC wrote: is any game in the NACS being streamed today? If so link pls. If I remember right on day 1 (which was really day 2) of Challenger coverage they said the first match day of the week receives zero coverage and day 2 will have a recap of day 1 and the match they're covering | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On June 22 2017 09:00 chipmonklord17 wrote: If I remember right on day 1 (which was really day 2) of Challenger coverage they said the first match day of the week receives zero coverage and day 2 will have a recap of day 1 and the match they're covering Yup this is correct. Only one series a week from the second day of games will be covered. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
Redbull dropping sponsorships with TSM and C9 to make their own EU CS team. This conflict of interest thing is so hilarious considering the EU CS team will never see play vs TSM or C9 until at least mid-2018. Currently unknown if Redbull will also drop player sponsorships with Bjerg. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On June 23 2017 01:27 ticklishmusic wrote: really comes across as riot trying to limit sponsorships and make teams more dependent on franchise system for $ The rule was in place before Riot was interested in doing franchising. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On June 23 2017 04:21 Slusher wrote: I don't know why they would think an Europe cs team is more exposure. I can kind of see some line of reasoning. Purely talking from my own experience, I'm having a hard time remembering sponsors of teams. I couldn't name a sponsor of even TL, the team with a forum I browse, or TSM, the most well known team. That said, for Korean teams it's easy to remember, as they all have their sponsors in the names. I think the worth of having a name as a sponsor is much more than being the sponsor of a big team. If Red Bull data agrees, this step in principle seems logical. That said, taking a EU CS team seems weird. EU doesn't have the franchising next season, right? So unless they want to fool around in EU CS while preparing for an entrance in NA LCS next season, it doesn't really make sense to me. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Even if they aren't actually a top 3 team having a garunteed split (minimum)with those 3 teams would make top 3 standings very likely | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On June 23 2017 10:04 GolemMadness wrote: So, no that everyone has realised that NV aren't a top 3 team just because they won some games against bottom teams, I guess IMT get to be the most overrated team in NA. I feel like this team seldom actually looks good in their wins, but instead, teams have just been playing terribly against them. Once the better teams get their shit together, I can't imagine IMT actually having a chance of finishing top 3 this split. maybe IMT goes for their third first round playoffs knockout | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
TL now sponsored, through the ownership group, by Disney. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
Team Liquid has successful teams and players in a multitude of competitive games including League of Legends, Overwatch, Super Smash Bros., and Counter-Strike Idk bout successful in LoL. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
It's not like they been successful in Overwatch or CSGO either. It's pretty much Smash and Dota squad that really pulling weight last few years, although hear there's some decent fighting game players on roster too. CSGO every now and then does deep tournament run but never really amounts to much. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Outside of this year, TL's done pretty well - memes aside. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On July 16 2017 00:13 Gahlo wrote: Outside of this year, TL's done pretty well - memes aside. Yeah. It may feel like TL's LoL team has been crashing and burning since forever, but TL finished 4th in Spring 2016, and 5th in Summer 2016. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
https://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2017/07/24/welcome-liquidmickey | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
we're going to need another playable midlaner anyways after franchising and this season is donezo anyways. might as well experiment with a mid laner who was LCK level also even if he is inconsistent he is one of the pickups that actually seem to fit with what TL needs. he's a midlaner who puts immense pressure both in lane and teamfights with (in the past) a high dmg share and kill participation. this is very different from most of the midlaners we've had (goldenglue, fenix, etc.) and more similar to midlet which fit the team stylistically but was an obvious downgrade in skill. it's basically a good midlet lol. so yeah we have 2 piglets live and die by the pig i guess | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
also his inting games will feel just right in NA | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On July 25 2017 16:29 cLutZ wrote: I am interested to watch. Im historically skeptical of TL, but that is no indictment of TL, I think all LOL franchises are incompetent until proven otherwise, and only TSM and C9 have passed my hurdle. Is this NA? I feel like there are a bunch in other regions that have been pretty good. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On July 25 2017 22:37 Sent. wrote: Why not just sign GBM? Would be less risky He's on a team tho. Mickey is free agent. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 25 2017 22:02 AdsMoFro wrote: Is this NA? I feel like there are a bunch in other regions that have been pretty good. Yes in na | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
More importantly does this mean clg Reinover (yes please) | ||
TheEmulator
28100 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
unless he really proves himself to be A) so damn good that he can't not be on a team or B) reformed I would not touch him with a 10 foot pole if I was an owner steve got the money, and 2(they keeping both RO and Inori?) lcs level junglers to have him fight for the spot so I guess he thought it was worth another shot. really not sure about this lol, but at least this time we aren't reliant on him and can just straight bench or kick him. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On July 26 2017 10:55 Slusher wrote: https://twitter.com/teamliquidlol/status/890024299641188352 More importantly does this mean clg Reinover (yes please) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Reignover costs $800,000 CLG isn't paying that. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
timing is so wierd on this.... but i mean, this makes sense if you wanna aim to become the top team, not just an okayish team like this roster's ceiling seems to be. just feels bad because liquid isn't a dead last meme team for once and you kinda want to hold onto that lol. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
When can he start playing? | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On July 26 2017 11:34 dsyxelic wrote: i wouldn't be surprised if this is his last chance unless he really proves himself to be A) so damn good that he can't not be on a team or B) reformed I would not touch him with a 10 foot pole if I was an owner steve got the money, and 2(they keeping both RO and Inori?) lcs level junglers to have him fight for the spot so I guess he thought it was worth another shot. really not sure about this lol, but at least this time we aren't reliant on him and can just straight bench or kick him. Why is TL going after him if he said what he said on that stream? It rubs me the wrong way that you would take someone that straight up says he doesn't respect your organization. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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TheEmulator
28100 Posts
On July 26 2017 14:41 zer0das wrote: I miss one week and this is what happens? I feel like this is one enormous troll that everyone on this website is colluding on to make me think is real, when it can't possibly be. This has to be satire? Right? Right????? There has to be a limit to how utterly incompetent Steve is. Hey hey hey, don't just blame Steve... Blame the entirety of the LoL staff from TLpro. It takes many minds to be this incompetent  | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
Steve has got to be planning to replace Piglet; I just don't see how they make it work with him and Dardoch especially with Mickey mid. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On July 26 2017 11:28 Gahlo wrote: Over/Under on how many split he'll stay on the same roster this time? I'm pretty sure the O/U is set at 1. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
On July 26 2017 14:35 lilwisper wrote: Why is TL going after him if he said what he said on that stream? It rubs me the wrong way that you would take someone that straight up says he doesn't respect your organization. because they probably had a nice talk about it, reasoned out to dardoch his options and what the pros of joining TL were, and dardoch probably knew that he didn't exactly have a great pool of options to choose from. TL gets a great NA jungler who is familiar with your system at best, a toxic guy you will just kick to keep inori or RO at worst. dardoch gets to prove himself as someone who is worth the pick up and either stick with TL or leverage a better offer elsewhere at best. he will be jobless like he was after the clg kick at worst. so both have only to gain, not much to lose. dardoch does not hold anything near the amount of leverage he had his first stint with liquid. of course this is under the assumption RO and/or inori staying. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On July 26 2017 14:52 TheEmulator wrote: Hey hey hey, don't just blame Steve... Blame the entirety of the LoL staff from TLpro. It takes many minds to be this incompetent Well I mean TL used to have integrity but after Steve came that seems to have been completely killed. This move is disgusting. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
- Over the course of the split, we found that Joshua “Dardoch” Hartnett did not align with our focus on teamwork and culture. We therefore brought in Omar “Omargod” Amin as part of a six-man roster in order to show Dardoch what a group of five people invested in teamwork can accomplish. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
Although I would like them to give Inori a chance. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Is Dardoch just super cheap or something? Really baffling how teams are still willing to throw money at him otherwise. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On July 26 2017 19:22 Numy wrote: Wish RO would go to CLG though. He's like the perfect player for that team. Pity there's no way CLG has the kind of money TL will demand. I don't really get the point of TL picking up Dardoch. They did a freaking hit piece on the guy and now they bringing him back? Feels like they just scrambling to not be relegated again then going to ditch him as soon as that's done. Of course relegation is what it is all about. And Dardoch simply has no other options, CLG basically kicked him and and I guess with his history of problems only a team as desperate as TL would take him now. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
TL have burnt though Adrian, Smoothie, Inori, Reignover in the last 1 and a half. That's just stupid. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
On July 26 2017 19:23 Redox wrote: Of course relegation is what it is all about. And Dardoch simply has no other options, CLG basically kicked him and and I guess with his history of problems only a team as desperate as TL would take him now. I think there are a number of teams who would want Dardoch. Think how often Randy Moss got bounced around the league. I think there aren't many teams who would want Dardoch *right now* if that makes sense. There is a interesting question of will teams refuse to put up with Dardoch's non-play issues before Dardoch changes to not non-play issues? | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
On July 27 2017 02:36 JimmiC wrote: Randy Moss was an undeniable generational Talent. He also lasted SEASONS with multiple franchises. As mentioned Dardoch has not looked heads above anyone. If you are going to be a pain in the ass you better be Faker or its not worth it in a team game. Not bashing the guy. I wish the best for him and TL. But he has to find a way to be a great teammate he has been on most teams at this point and is running out of options. Granted, this is my opinion. If a 0 is wood league and a 10 is faker, talent-wise I think Dardoch is a solid 8. I think there are only three or four other (native) NA players who I'd rate that high; and even some of those I'm not quite sure I don't have them too high. I don't think talent wise it's unreasonable to compare him to doublelift. The major difference between DL and Dardoch is that DL always tryhards; he doesn't get pissed and try to quit. I used the Randy Moss analogy for a reason. Moss used to quit routes if the ball wasn't coming his way. IIRC, after the expansion draft and he was on the raiders, his numbers were good at best. He caused trouble in the locker room and on the field. You wouldn't get his all if he wasn't invested. The kid can play, he just doesn't have someone who can kick his ass when he's being dumb. I think the best fit for him would be TSM, but there's no way they ever bring him in for a tryout right now. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Dardoch's value has always been 75% skill 25% nationally but he isn't even Akaadian in 2017 and by all counts Akaadian is a cool customer. No way I would give him an 8 in 2017 even with nationality value factored in. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On July 27 2017 04:18 Slusher wrote: The reasoning is similar but Dardoch is a pleb compared to Moss, Moss was an 11 in his rookie season. Players who were thought to be good were garbage compared to Moss. Go back and watch his mnf debut vs the packers they were literally helpless against him. Dardoch's value has always been 75% skill 25% nationally but he isn't even Akaadian in 2017 and by all counts Akaadian is a cool customer. No way I would give him an 8 in 2017 even with nationality value factored in. As a vikings fan growing up (just to spite my Dad who's a bears fan), I'm very familiar with just how good Randy Moss was. I'm well aware of just how good Moss was when he decided to be. But look at it in comparison. Most NA players are a 4 or 5. Most NFL players are a 7 or 8. I haven't seen enough of Akaadian to have an opinion on him; I haven't had time to watch a lot of NA. I'd be very surprised if Akaadian's ceiling is as high as Dardoch's. That said if I were an owner/GM, I'd value a player like Akaadian far more for a hire than Dardoch. You can do a lot on the NA scene with a consistent 6. A highly inconsistent 8 is worth a whole lot less in Bo3 formats; he might win you some matches but I think he costs more games than he wins because of his issues. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
No one cares like that about Dardoch. He's not good enough to justify his diva attitude and I'm stunned Steve would even consider it. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
I wasn't saying they were similar in any other way in fact the contrary | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
On July 27 2017 07:55 GrandInquisitor wrote: Dardoch as Randy Moss? Not a chance. The year after Moss's rookie season, the Green Bay Packers drafted defensive backs with their first, second, and third round picks. No one cares like that about Dardoch. He's not good enough to justify his diva attitude and I'm stunned Steve would even consider it. TL management seems to be fine with treating their players like divas as long as they consider them stars. Remember that part from Breaking Point where Piglet was laying on the bed and some coach came to motivate him? + Show Spoiler + (go to 59:30 if the link is broken) Treating star players like that might not even be a bad idea if they're worth it, but in Dardoch's case it's really dubious. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
Good going by the way CLG. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
even when he was playing well, he wasn't playing world class well. You're weren't seeing spring season Lira or S3 Meteos out of him. now that he's show that he's inconsistent on top of that, he is at best a solid starter, not a star. If he has ZERO problems with being a douchebag, you still wouldn't call his skill something you could build a team around. mind you, he's probably a straight upgrade over inori, who has been said to have similar team problems and is definately not as skilled. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On July 30 2017 01:42 geript wrote: I didn't catch the game and tbh TL isn't worth catching the vod. I'll take your word for Dardoch throwing. I could make an argument for Moss looking legit terrible for his weeks on the titans, but I really don't care because it's quite possible that the only reason that Dardoch is playing with a team right now is because he wants to milk as much lcs money as he can while he can. Other than a few games early this split, Dardoch hasn't looked good for the most part. I'm curious if he is just "difficult" or if he has an actual disorder. Maybe 10-15 years ago it'd be a disorder, but at this point it isn't really that abnormal for young men like Dardoch to be so poorly socially adjusted. There's entire subcultures built up around justifying or even glorifying such behavior. Pre-Internet they might have been forced into becoming better people. Nowadays they can just blame it on a SJW conspiracy. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
LMFAO | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
The Reddit reactions are hilarious in their stupidity. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
On August 02 2017 09:07 Ansibled wrote: I can't wait for the new wave of G2 hate. https://twitter.com/theScoreesports/status/892536202389327872 G2 hate should drown in Riot hate. Lots of people probably think it's all Riot's fault "because it keeps favoring NA in everything". | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On the other hand there is also a lot of criticism for the franchise model. So I dont mind if both things run parallel to each other for the sake of comparison. Only issue is Riot has not yet made clear what they want to do with EU LCS if not franchise. They should have done that the moment NA LCS franchising was announced. This shows again how disjointed and independently run the 2 LCS are. So of course EU teams will now make their case and try to improve their conditions in EU LCS going forward and put some pressure on Riot. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
It is clear that the teams in EU want franchising, or at least something that carries similar benefits and security to it. Ocelote said the teams were discussing things with Riot, though obviously the results of that haven't been made public and most likely weren't very productive considering this recent news. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
I mean it got leaked that they applied instantly | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Anyway it looks more like a publicity/negotiating stunt from G2/Fnatic. Force Riot EU to start bothering to grow the league or they'll just go cash out else where. Revenu sharing, better scheduling, better exposure, merchandising system through the league etc. All of this they can do without franchising yet haven't done yet. Franchising merely offers the most power to the companies themselves while shifting power away from fans and players. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On August 02 2017 12:14 Slusher wrote: It's also possible that these applications are part of that negotiation process I mean it got leaked that they applied instantly Yup that is pretty much what I am saying. It is a classic at this point when it comes to Riot / team negotiations. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On August 02 2017 16:49 Numy wrote: I find it interesting that "investors" and "franchising" are linked together. It's essentially saying that the only way to grow esports and for franchising to work is it outside money flows into it. Is this really sustainable or a desirable outcome? Revenue sharing was a big topic point earlier in the year which doesn't actually need franchising to happen. Business owners will always want franchising if their goal is to maximize profits as it allows them the biggest negotiating power to sell their business. We've seen that happen to every NA organization bar TSM. The question is if having esports sell out complete is a good thing in the long term? Again I'm a bit more wary of that, we've seen what outside investors do and think about esports before which has never been my vision of it. I really don't want everything to be trust fund babies operating in the red. I agree on a lot here. I am also very skeptical that at current spending things are sustainable or even profitable. Then again attracting investors and generating growth while ignoring profit seems to be totally normal these days in business, especially in the US with the whole VC culture. And you can not fault teams for wanting this. Pretty sure HSGG is a millionaire now no matter what. Btw the whole thing is a magnitude worse in Overwatch League imo. Money invested there seems completely disproportionate to current interest in OW esports. So might as well try to cash in now before OWL burns esports for investors. :D | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Also, although often blowhardy, Richard Lewis actually seems the most sober of the long term figures about the prospects of OWL and how its likely to turn off investors. Venture capital in esports, so far, has done little to increase sustainability or the exposure of the games, really all its done is drive up salaries and costs (living in LA and Berlin does not help the LCS teams either when it comes to costs). | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On August 03 2017 02:56 cLutZ wrote: I dont see how it works long term either. The BAM contract is nice, but the details released don't make me think its going to allow owners to make back that $10 mil quickly just from rights money and prize money. So far, the best way of making money has been selling LCS slots like Hai, who's gonna cash out another $2mil+ with Flyquest's slot. Also, although often blowhardy, Richard Lewis actually seems the most sober of the long term figures about the prospects of OWL and how its likely to turn off investors. Venture capital in esports, so far, has done little to increase sustainability or the exposure of the games, really all its done is drive up salaries and costs (living in LA and Berlin does not help the LCS teams either when it comes to costs). The 10m isn't a lump sum. It's 5m up front and the rest is prorated. The BAM deal is 50m/split iirc, and with a 1/3rd share going to the teams, that's an average of 1.6(r)m per team. OWL had the issue, last time I looked into it, of having a 20m buy in and having the teams being geolocated. That's a steep buy in for a league that has no track record, unlike the LCS, and gelocation is something untested in esports. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 03 2017 02:56 cLutZ wrote: I dont see how it works long term either. The BAM contract is nice, but the details released don't make me think its going to allow owners to make back that $10 mil quickly just from rights money and prize money. So far, the best way of making money has been selling LCS slots like Hai, who's gonna cash out another $2mil+ with Flyquest's slot. Also, although often blowhardy, Richard Lewis actually seems the most sober of the long term figures about the prospects of OWL and how its likely to turn off investors. Venture capital in esports, so far, has done little to increase sustainability or the exposure of the games, really all its done is drive up salaries and costs (living in LA and Berlin does not help the LCS teams either when it comes to costs). That's basically how I view things. Esports went through this before with people throwing outside money into the scene that drove up costs so much while not really generating any additional revenue. I remember when that bubble broke people were saying esports may never recover. Thankfully streaming came along when it did. Scarra casually spoke on stream about the CLG acquisition. The mentioned everyone in LCS operates in the red except for C9 to his knowledge. They just been hemorrhaging money waiting for this moment. We'll see how it goes. I don't see any improvement to the game or viewing experience resulting from this escalation so don't really get why it's a good thing. How is this any better than a game like CSGO which supposedly makes organizations lots of money while paying their players good sums and having way lower burnout? OWL is a whole other story. It's a textbook example of how bubbles are formed. Question will be if it bursts now or if they manage to make it work. If it does burst I just hope there won't be collateral harm in esports. Shouldn't suffer from insane stupidity. There's zero history to warrant what they asking but for blizzard it doesn't really matter if it fails since they get paid anyway I guess. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 03 2017 03:15 Gahlo wrote: The 10m isn't a lump sum. It's 5m up front and the rest is prorated. The BAM deal is 50m/split iirc, and with a 1/3rd share going to the teams, that's an average of 1.6(r)m per team. . That is still a horrible return. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
It's also just the BAM deal. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Yes, but what are the other deals? Teams get that, but they also have to use it to pay non-player expenses that seem to get higher every year. On a deal like this, I think you'd expect to get back your investment in 3 years, that is how standard VC works (and LCS isn't that different, in fact, it has lower upside than most VC). Is LCS, basically, still going to be a league where basically you break even and try to leverage it for sponsorship offers? I have a secret for all the teams out there that have been saying, "people won't sponsor us because they are afraid we will drop out," that's just an excuse and they aren't going to give you better deals because of franchising, they will just change their negotiating position. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On August 03 2017 05:23 cLutZ wrote: Yes, but what are the other deals? Teams get that, but they also have to use it to pay non-player expenses that seem to get higher every year. On a deal like this, I think you'd expect to get back your investment in 3 years, that is how standard VC works (and LCS isn't that different, in fact, it has lower upside than most VC). Is LCS, basically, still going to be a league where basically you break even and try to leverage it for sponsorship offers? I have a secret for all the teams out there that have been saying, "people won't sponsor us because they are afraid we will drop out," that's just an excuse and they aren't going to give you better deals because of franchising, they will just change their negotiating position. I'm more inclined to believe people that are actually in the scene. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Then there's the issue of again why was a circuit system we have in every other esport and in league fine for sponsors but now league structure is too risky? It's similar risks of irrelevance if you fail continually, league just makes it so much harder to fail so risk is less. Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if there's truth there but at the same time it's more part of a few compounding issues. Remember costs got inflated super high due to VC teams so sponsorship in term would have to inflate in order to cover the costs. It could just be a case of the money teams needed was too much for the returns to sponsors they were promising. edit: It's harder to believe league owners than most others due to the history of blatant lying around issues and attacking journalists for posting true information only to reveal later that exact same information. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 03 2017 18:59 Numy wrote: edit: It's harder to believe league owners than most others due to the history of blatant lying around issues and attacking journalists for posting true information only to reveal later that exact same information. I think this is particularly important. A consistent pattern in League has been: 1) Reporter reports story. 2) Team calls reporter a liar. 3) Reddit overwhelming sides with team. 4) Story happens. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On August 04 2017 06:54 cLutZ wrote: I think this is particularly important. A consistent pattern in League has been: 1) Reporter reports story. 2) Team calls reporter a liar. 3) Reddit overwhelming sides with team. 4) Story happens. This happens all the time in traditional sports. Hell, this happens all the time when stuff is leaked in journalism period. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On August 04 2017 08:31 cLutZ wrote: I agree, but the Esports community is probably the most anti-journalist despite arguably having the highest accuracy rates. Guys like Wolf and RLewis are way more accurate than Shefter, and all 3 are way more accurate than the average political journo. Surprise, people don't like stuff that isn't ready to be announced or isn't even finalized to be announced. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
I feel like the esports fanbase (particularly lol) is full of overly credulous optimists | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Korean esports everyone. No wonder their top players are so eager to peace out every year... | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On August 04 2017 21:42 Numy wrote: https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/2609/skt-t1-penalized-for-bangs-controversial-comment-made-on-stream Korean esports everyone. No wonder their top players are so eager to peace out every year... It's part of that Korean culture that people on the internet love to slobber on. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On August 05 2017 19:12 Numy wrote: I believe the incident happened at the start of the year and the only reason why this is happening is because fans on invern were coming up with reasons why Bang is an asshole causing SKT to suck. Bending to that kind of insane stupidity doesn't sit well with me. Literally everyone does it nowadays sadly. The worst part is the people who are complaining are very rarely the actual consumers. | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
On August 05 2017 14:23 cLutZ wrote: LCK is, at least, not suspending him from competition. Riot does that for online rudeness, despite knowing that the reporting mechanisms they implemented are super abusable. They do personally review these cases though. Hence, that the reporting mechanism are abusable does not lead to unjustified punishment. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 05 2017 22:05 Prog wrote: They do personally review these cases though. Hence, that the reporting mechanism are abusable does not lead to unjustified punishment. Except the problem isn't the process, its that selective reporting (or often Reddit threads) get people selectively placed into the process, and once you are under scrutiny, you are getting bonked because everyone commits violations. The player conduct code is like the 55MPH speed limits on interstates. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On August 06 2017 05:05 JimmiC wrote: Omargod seams pretty underwhelming. If chaser is still in NA would he make sense as a PO pick up? I get he didn't look amazing but I think he would be a upgrade. If they had the money they could pull off a trade with TL for RO since for some reason TL seems to be phasing him out. Chaser went back to Korea, last I heard. | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
On August 06 2017 04:58 cLutZ wrote: Except the problem isn't the process, its that selective reporting (or often Reddit threads) get people selectively placed into the process, and once you are under scrutiny, you are getting bonked because everyone commits violations. The player conduct code is like the 55MPH speed limits on interstates. I disagree here. I don't see why a normal, adult human being should not be able to not flame, not int, etc. If someone wants to be a professional league player satisfying the player conduct code should not be an issue. (Actually, I have no idea why any player would not want to satisfy riot's conduct norms. I think they are reasonable.) | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
Kinda boring topic though, has not been relevant for so long. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On August 06 2017 04:58 cLutZ wrote: Except the problem isn't the process, its that selective reporting (or often Reddit threads) get people selectively placed into the process, and once you are under scrutiny, you are getting bonked because everyone commits violations. The player conduct code is like the 55MPH speed limits on interstates. I'm always genuinely surprised to hear people unironically claim that everyone commits ban-worthy violations. Is it really so unthinkable that some people don't call their teammates fags or degenerates to be gunned down in the streets? On August 07 2017 02:29 cLutZ wrote: I was more thinking about the few times a guy was on stream and basically yelled to himself/his fans about how shit someone was. Then that went viral, then punishment. I challenge you to name me a single person that's ever been banned because of a stream-only violation and hasn't done anything in-game. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Obviously the severity incarnation ban was a result of onstream statements that, as far as I know, he maintains were always puffery. Going further back, this clearly happened to Nukeduck and Mithy as articles like this: http://www.esportsheaven.com/news/view/64271 hounded them for what, apparantly in EU, is considered fairly normal language. This riot post, while screwed up, http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4398236 confirms it was outside activity that put them onto the scent of ND and Mithy. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/273pob/league_of_legends_competition_ruling_suspension/chx3r4r/ There was no other indication from riot that behavior ingame, rather than being reported out of client was the problem. All that said, Riot has vastly improved its systems in this regard. They simply don't allow the average person (which I would argue most pros who ever got banned for toxicity were) to rage enough to get banned because you just get muted. Plus Lyte is gone and LOL teams are now all big money which would fight any meaningful suspension (aka they will all probably end up being 1-2 game suspensions, during regular season) in the future, | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On August 07 2017 15:57 cLutZ wrote: Plus Lyte is gone and LOL teams are now all big money which would fight any meaningful suspension (aka they will all probably end up being 1-2 game suspensions, during regular season) in the future, Lyte's hypocrisy still amazes me. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On August 07 2017 15:57 cLutZ wrote: I'm fairly sure the Stixxay ban was preceded by a Reddit thread that "called him out". Obviously the severity incarnation ban was a result of onstream statements that, as far as I know, he maintains were always puffery. Going further back, this clearly happened to Nukeduck and Mithy as articles like this: http://www.esportsheaven.com/news/view/64271 hounded them for what, apparantly in EU, is considered fairly normal language. This riot post, while screwed up, http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4398236 confirms it was outside activity that put them onto the scent of ND and Mithy. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/273pob/league_of_legends_competition_ruling_suspension/chx3r4r/ There was no other indication from riot that behavior ingame, rather than being reported out of client was the problem. So that we're very clear, what you think is "fairly normal language" is a guy typing, in-game: "so many fucking niggers in one lobby" "get cancer and die fucking trash jews i will gass your families" Yeah it must have been his on-stream behavior that got him banned. Because obviously him typing that stuff in-game had no connection to his ban. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On August 08 2017 12:37 GrandInquisitor wrote: So that we're very clear, what you think is "fairly normal language" is a guy typing, in-game: "so many fucking niggers in one lobby" "get cancer and die fucking trash jews i will gass your families" Yeah it must have been his on-stream behavior that got him banned. Because obviously him typing that stuff in-game had no connection to his ban. Except it was in a custom lobby. What's next? You get banned if you PM a friend of yours "go kill yourself you fucking nigger"? | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I mean I know EUW players are bad but dang, if that's your go to example of "behavior that shouldn't be punished" ... | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On August 10 2017 21:14 GrandInquisitor wrote: Um, yeah? Suppose I add my mid laner after a game and spam him with those messages - i should be immune to punishment because, what, it happened in a different chat window inside the game? I mean I know EUW players are bad but dang, if that's your go to example of "behavior that shouldn't be punished" ... I have to admit. Out of all the responses I could possibly think of this one didn't even pass my mind. 10/10 made me laugh | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
But here your X was "punishing people who tell people on their friends list 'go kill yourself you fucking nigger'", which is a really weird thing to be defending. Anyway it's all irrelevant - the point was that clutZ made some shit up and got called out for it. The funny thing is that I think I will eventually be wrong - at some point some pro will do something ghastly thing completely outside the game, and then Riot will have a tough choice as to how to deal with it. Kind of like a Donald Sterling or Aaron Hernandez sort of thing - imagine if some LCS pro starts making alt-right videos and sponsoring INFOWARS or whatever. They would be banned from LCS per their contractual agreements, but it'd get real controversial. But to my knowledge it's never happened, because there's always some terrible associated in-game behavior that Riot can rely on. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On August 11 2017 06:33 GrandInquisitor wrote: It's just funny to me because usually when people say "What's next? X?" X is some like strawmanned hyperbole that no one could possibly argue for. Like when people say "You are pro-choice? What's next? Murdering five-year-olds?" Or "You are pro-weed? What's next? Forcibly injecting everyone with heroin?" But here your X was "punishing people who tell people on their friends list 'go kill yourself you fucking nigger'", which is a really weird thing to be defending. Anyway it's all irrelevant - the point was that clutZ made some shit up and got called out for it. The funny thing is that I think I will eventually be wrong - at some point some pro will do something ghastly thing completely outside the game, and then Riot will have a tough choice as to how to deal with it. Kind of like a Donald Sterling or Aaron Hernandez sort of thing - imagine if some LCS pro starts making alt-right videos and sponsoring INFOWARS or whatever. They would be banned from LCS per their contractual agreements, but it'd get real controversial. But to my knowledge it's never happened, because there's always some terrible associated in-game behavior that Riot can rely on. How is it weird? The point is you aren't even attacking people. You are just talking to some friends and using ridiculous language because it is funny. The same thing they did in that lobby. Also your example of "making alt right videos or sponsoring infowars" cleared up everything. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
imagine if some LCS pro starts making alt-right videos and sponsoring INFOWARS or whatever Lol, that would be legit hilarious. Depressing, but definitely funny too. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On August 07 2017 14:26 GrandInquisitor wrote: le don't call their teammates fags or degenerates to be gunned down in the streets? I challenge you to name me a single person that's ever been banned because of a stream-only violation and hasn't done anything in-game. Destiny for using the N word. Deezer in League due to what he did in StarCraft. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/12vr9e/i_dont_play_lol_so_i_dont_understand_why_destiny/ On August 11 2017 07:07 cLutZ wrote: I didn't get called out, I generated demonstrable examples of behavior on steam that then let to riot to investigate him more closely ingame with greater scrutiny. It happens all the time in law enforcement and is called parallel construction. Which isn't what I asked - your OP said that streamers were unfairly targeted because everyone calls their teammates faggots apparently as often as driving over 55mph on the highway, and it's super unfair that streamers are "singled out" for this when "everyone does it". Which is why I asked if you had any example of a streamer that actually got unfairly singled out, i.e., he didn't flame in chat, but got banned solely because of something he did outside the game. To my knowledge that has never happened (though it might, if the streamer was famous enough and it was something really outrageous). | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On August 14 2017 23:40 Slusher wrote: Deezers lol ban was him continuing to be him, but destiny is a decent example Velocity had picked him up before he was banned. To be honest from what I saw on Scarra's stream back then he didn't really act worse in LoL than Silsol or Azingy. The ban more or less came instantly after it became public knowledge who 1G1D actually was. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
They have to account for photoshop and the like so people never get banned from PMs. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 15 2017 00:24 GrandInquisitor wrote: Yeah League would never tolerate a known former cheater in their community. They certainly wouldn't make him an LCK caster or anything. Riot doesn't control LCK/Champions casting as a league. Hell it was a big deal both when SpoTv got to cast games and when the Twitch stream moved from OGN to riot. There are at least 10 reasons not to have LS as a Caster before "he cheated in SC." | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On August 15 2017 00:44 VayneAuthority wrote: ironically PMing your mid laner and shouting obscenities at him isn't bannable, apparently they don't have trackers on private messages possibly because it would breach privacy or something. They have to account for photoshop and the like so people never get banned from PMs. In Denmark reading PMs of any kind is strictly illegal, I've worked for a company with a browser based game and the lawyer we contacted told us it was illegal the only time it would be legal was if the person in question could be a danger to themself or others in which case we'd have to pass it to the police and they could do it, granted they got a warrant. The Danish personal data information laws are really strict and I have no idea how it works in other countries. On August 15 2017 00:24 GrandInquisitor wrote: Yeah League would never tolerate a known former cheater in their community. They certainly wouldn't make him an LCK caster or anything. This was one of the few posts that have actually managed to make me lol irl. :D | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On August 15 2017 02:19 geript wrote: Riot doesn't control LCK/Champions casting as a league. Hell it was a big deal both when SpoTv got to cast games and when the Twitch stream moved from OGN to riot. There are at least 10 reasons not to have LS as a Caster before "he cheated in SC." This is true. I should have said Worlds caster instead. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On August 15 2017 02:56 Slusher wrote: Deezer was several temp bans deep by the time he joined velocity Oh. I wasn't aware. He was probably chat banned the times I saw him on Scarra or Voy's stream. Such a pity 1G1D turned out to be Deezer, from what I saw on the yoloQ games he looked pretty beastly. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 15 2017 02:19 geript wrote: Riot doesn't control LCK/Champions casting as a league. Hell it was a big deal both when SpoTv got to cast games and when the Twitch stream moved from OGN to riot. There are at least 10 reasons not to have LS as a Caster before "he cheated in SC." The best evidence we have was that Riot was part of the push to get SPOTV into LCK broadcasting. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On August 15 2017 04:55 Jek wrote: Oh. I wasn't aware. He was probably chat banned the times I saw him on Scarra or Voy's stream. Such a pity 1G1D turned out to be Deezer, from what I saw on the yoloQ games he looked pretty beastly. Iirc this was still the early days of riot so they let him play parallel to the player approval that takes place before the player can even be announced now. It was for this reason he only ever played one game, the review never passed. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
That is to say, if you perform poorly at Worlds, you will get penalized with loss of pool seeds. That in turn makes you more likely to perform poorly at Worlds, because you are up against better teams in group stage. Which means that next year you are more likely to again be penalized with loss of pool seeds. I know they also consider MSI, which isn't subject to the same rules, but Worlds performance is definitely part of it too. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
The Worlds format just is just really bad at sorting positioning/rankings of teams that don't win the event. That alone may be enough to say it's wrong to attach any kind of meaning to the results outside of the first place. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On August 23 2017 06:25 Numy wrote: The Worlds format just is just really bad at sorting positioning/rankings of teams that don't win the event. That alone may be enough to say it's wrong to attach any kind of meaning to the results outside of the first place. Agreed, but this is true of any bracket format. Even double-elimination only guarantees the "correct" 1st and 2nd place teams even if you assume perfect transitivity and no upsets. Barring a ten-week quadruple-round-robin between all contestants you'll never have truly accurate rankings outside of who is #1. So I really don't like the Worlds format. Baking in privileges for certain regions over others feels very wrong. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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docsforsale
United States3 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
Don't like how making shitty PR statements like this became the most effective way of getting Riot to cooperate with you. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Edit: Parenthesis. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
Like you heard a TON of stuff from the NA owners, and a ton of pressure/meetings were probably happening behind the scenes with how much pressure they were showing publicly. The public pushing came 2 years ago with things coming to a head last year, and then deals and talk coming this year. Meanwhile EU is fumbling along, the orgs don't seem to know what's gong on. They're just copying NA blindly. h2k's random threat isn't organized the way all the major NA orgs pushed together when regi stated LoL was losing them money. The reaction from the major NA owners was all along the same lines, and all together. Its the same situation when people found out G2 and fnatic applied to NALCS. No real statements, not real pushing from the orgs. As much as they want to blame Riot EU, its also the orgs/owners fault as well for having just as little organization. Take at least 2 sides to make a franchise, and if the owners are equally as clueless as the league, then wtf did they expect. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 02 2017 17:32 Kaneh wrote: it really feels like the NA owners were driving nalcs and really assisting with the franchsing while the EU owners didn't do as much and just kinda assumed. Like you heard a TON of stuff from the NA owners, and a ton of pressure/meetings were probably happening behind the scenes with how much pressure they were showing publicly. The public pushing came 2 years ago with things coming to a head last year, and then deals and talk coming this year. Meanwhile EU is fumbling along, the orgs don't seem to know what's gong on. They're just copying NA blindly. h2k's random threat isn't organized the way all the major NA orgs pushed together when regi stated LoL was losing them money. The reaction from the major NA owners was all along the same lines, and all together. Its the same situation when people found out G2 and fnatic applied to NALCS. No real statements, not real pushing from the orgs. As much as they want to blame Riot EU, its also the orgs/owners fault as well for having just as little organization. Take at least 2 sides to make a franchise, and if the owners are equally as clueless as the league, then wtf did they expect. NA has always been the easier market than EU. Simply, America has 320 million people, and any extra effort over that is gravy. California alone is basically the size of the largest countries in Europe. On top of that, Riot is based in California, thus they have a local bias. When it comes to EU LCS, Riot has a choice: They can either Franchise, or give EU more money than NA. If they franchise EU, they will be equals. If they do not franchise EU, they need to give EU extra money, because those teams will need to continue to bid higher for players to stay in the league. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 02 2017 18:04 cLutZ wrote: NA has always been the easier market than EU. Simply, America has 320 million people, and any extra effort over that is gravy. California alone is basically the size of the largest countries in Europe. On top of that, Riot is based in California, thus they have a local bias. When it comes to EU LCS, Riot has a choice: They can either Franchise, or give EU more money than NA. If they franchise EU, they will be equals. If they do not franchise EU, they need to give EU extra money, because those teams will need to continue to bid higher for players to stay in the league. EU fans, at least judging by reddit, have been adamant on not wanting franchising. NA is also a simpler market because it effectively caters to the US and Canada, which share a dominant language and can be advertised to relatively the same. Meanwhile EU is divided by tons of languages and distinct cultures. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
And again, they just whine the NA got thiers, without trying anything EU centric. I'm mostly just bitching out the orgs for being so passive and h2k throwing a fit when there's simply no evidence they tried to work with riotEU on anything. The letter reads to me "dear riot, we invested a ton of money with no plan, bail us out" like what did they expect? seems like amateur ownership. "Fully aware and discussed for many months" so you expected what, that they could get you a deal after NA announced thiers and you panicked? so you demanded shit without backing from other orgs and no real plan? You make public PR statements like this when you have some kind of plan/declaration to get what you want, and the other side is balking because they want different terms. NA used it to push riot towards better terms in franchising and league setup, which the orgs already had plans for. EU has no terms. There is no plans. This is just a childish tantrum. Its like thier throw a public facebook tantrum because your partner can't buy that house/car you always wanted, even tho you never really discussed it or had any real plans on how to afford it. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
The difference here is that it seems like H2K (and previously other teams like G2) tried to do something on their own, while North American PR stunts seemed coordinated. I'm only guessing, but I also think that for some reason Riot EU is much less willing (or able) to cooperate with the local owners. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Not to mention it's a catch 22 from EU fans(judging by reddit). You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
On September 03 2017 05:44 Slusher wrote: Except The open letter from the na orgs was anything but childish. It outlined the ways they had attempted to monetize, the roadblocks Riot was actively creating for them. There is a reason why Tryndamere looked like the idiot, it was because being unable to interpret the na orgs statement would require an idiot. I was trying to say that the letter was okay but didn't cause a strong reaction in the community. That strong reaction happened later, when Regi started playing the victim and Tryndamere responded like he did. I think the community didn't (and probably still doesn't) really care about the financial stuff, but started supporting NA owners "against" Riot because they managed to paint themselves as victims of some great injustice. H2K is trying to do the same now, without realizing their situation is different than TSM's. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 03 2017 05:58 Gahlo wrote: You can't force EU LCS isn't the same situation as NA LCS. The business culture there is entirely different. I'm sure something could be worked out, but you can't just copy it. Not to mention it's a catch 22 from EU fans(judging by reddit). You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. They should not franchise EU LCS culturally (practically imo it's also bad for na but that's done). But they need to compensate the teams. Most NA orgs seem to be valuing the stability at over $1 million per year. If riot wants EU LCS to exist, they need to pony up at least that much additional revenue to each EU LCS participant. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
Personally, I'd be far happier if EU and NA were merged. Both leagues are too top heavy to be interesting to watch; plus both leagues lack real depth. Take G2, UoL, Fanatic, H2K and one other EU team and add it to TSM, CLG, IMT, C9, and one NA team and make a league. Maybe have a 12 team league. Cut out the historically bad teams and the 1-season wonders. Keep the import rule if you really want. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
Both leagues are too top heavy to be interesting to watch Isn't this something that occurs in a lot of sports and games though. I mean look at LCK, this year there were 4 clearly superior teams. It tends to be the product of their superior management, but also because as big orgs, they can buy and pay good players. Doublelift didn't go to TSM just because they asked nicely. The league is not going to even out if you merge both regions, there are always going to be top teams. League was, quite frankly, a shit esport to get into for orgs. Even before the salary boom it was awful at generating income. Because Riot set a vision that a lot of people believe in. I wouldn't be surprised if most Rioters are on board with the idea of developing esports and creating a scene with infrastructure. But in the end they are a business, they're not going to throw away money and pay teams more unless they need to. In that regard, franchising might be a good thing, because it means teams are not entirely dependent on Riot. Stable league positions would attract more investors who view esports as a means to advertise their products, then they're no longer dependent on Riot charity. Not great for the small upcoming teams, but they don't really stand a chance against big teams who have coaches and funding. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 03 2017 21:22 DarkCore wrote: Isn't this something that occurs in a lot of sports and games though. I mean look at LCK, this year there were 4 clearly superior teams. It tends to be the product of their superior management, but also because as big orgs, they can buy and pay good players. Doublelift didn't go to TSM just because they asked nicely. The league is not going to even out if you merge both regions, there are always going to be top teams. Because Riot set a vision that a lot of people believe in. I wouldn't be surprised if most Rioters are on board with the idea of developing esports and creating a scene with infrastructure. But in the end they are a business, they're not going to throw away money and pay teams more unless they need to. In that regard, franchising might be a good thing, because it means teams are not entirely dependent on Riot. Stable league positions would attract more investors who view esports as a means to advertise their products, then they're no longer dependent on Riot charity. Not great for the small upcoming teams, but they don't really stand a chance against big teams who have coaches and funding. I mean, when TSM had their NA lineup in CS:GO and was still making more money off of CS:GO than League, there's clearly a problem. If anything, TSM and other big teams were doing charity for Riot by having a team play in their league. As for small up and coming teams, it was a non-issue in NA. Off the top of my head, there was nowhere near the turnover of teams in NA as even the best of challenger teams often got bopped by the worst of LCS, and no team outside of C9 had continued success and instead opted to sell of their spot shortly after. No team in NA has been relegated and came back(DIG is just Apex rebranded by ownership) because unlike EU where there is some interest in Challenger, and below that, country based leagues that can keep teams afloat while they get their stuff in order. Whatever small or up and coming org makes it in will be buoyed by revenue sharing. In this example of a split using 2017 Spring as a model with a 40m league income, despite poor viewership and the lowest standings, NV still would have made half as much as TSM, who were the clear highest in both. TL would have made more than IMT, EF, and DIG because of brand loyalty(5th) to offset their poor standings(9th). | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
I'm not expecting that if the leagues merged that things would be perfect. But the league would have more competitive teams and thus more competitive games. Part of the reason why I skip most NA and EU is that well over half the games aren't competitive and will never be competitive. In LCK this year you could easily skip BBQ's and Ever8's games and be missing nothing. It's not just a quality of play thing (I.e. LCK showing off the most interesting play/counterplay); it's also that you lack the higher percentage of Challenger vs gold games and the wood vs wood games that are prevalent in EU and NA. There will always be teams that have a bad split, teams that struggle, teams that do dumb shit, teams that lack requisite talent, etc. But if you take the top half of both leagues and mash them up, then the Top vs mid and mid vs mid games become more interesting to watch. Even if you expect TSM to win, there's far higher likelihood of IMT/C9/CLG to beat TSM than Evho fox, TL, or the various other consistent shitters/relegation teams. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Even then, the timing would be iffy. If we go by current NALCS timings, the league starts at noon local time. This means LCS would start at 9am on the West Coast, a poor time during weekends when a good chunk of the target demographic is sleeping/at church, and 6PM(going off of Berlin time) for EU, which means it will stretch well into the night on Sundays for them. Flexing games out to Friday doesn't do much good, since if you set the games at 3PM local (noon West Coast, 9PM EU) you lose most of the West coast, a lot of the East, and probably some of EU for significant portions of time. There might be some way to weight the schedule so game with EU teams or mixed games are earlier and ones with NA teams are later, but I'm not sure how clean that schedule would be. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
But if you take the top half of both leagues and mash them up, then the Top vs mid and mid vs mid games become more interesting to watch. This is why we have Worlds, and why Riot should really allow more international tournaments. Their draconian grip on the competitive scene has stifled growth in that regard. Also, I do see some merit in the argument 'If we had more contact between regions, overall the skill level would increase'. If mid tier teams were given the chance to prepare and play against other regions, they would gain valuable experience. Since season 3 or 4 there have been 4-5 teams that have been consider Worlds contenders from Korea. Sometimes as many as 6. Lol, Korea is definitely best region and dominate the game, but saying that they've been fielding 4-6 contenders since season 3 is a bit of a stretch. Last year I'd say it was 4, but S5, S4 and S3 they fielded 2, maybe you could argue 3, teams that could win it. Korea is going to win worlds every year, but even they're not perfect. This year they had 4 contenders again, only 3 can go, but 5/6 is just flat out wrong. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On September 03 2017 22:10 Gahlo wrote: The biggest issue with a mega LCS is the logistics would be terrible. To make it more acessible to everybody, you'd need to move LCS to the East Coast. This means all esports staff at Riot have to drop whatever non-esports duties they have and would need to be moved across country. All the teams would have to relocate. Riot would need to make a new studio to hold it is. Even then, the timing would be iffy. If we go by current NALCS timings, the league starts at noon local time. This means LCS would start at 9am on the West Coast, a poor time during weekends when a good chunk of the target demographic is sleeping/at church, and 6PM(going off of Berlin time) for EU, which means it will stretch well into the night on Sundays for them. Flexing games out to Friday doesn't do much good, since if you set the games at 3PM local (noon West Coast, 9PM EU) you lose most of the West coast, a lot of the East, and probably some of EU for significant portions of time. There might be some way to weight the schedule so game with EU teams or mixed games are earlier and ones with NA teams are later, but I'm not sure how clean that schedule would be. This. This doesn't even take into account the logistics of having around FIFTY (10 EULCS teams x 5 players per team) players that could, repercussion free join an NALCS team. Do you expand the league? Are there enough sponsors in NA willing to accommodate the change? How many teams would it take? Would teams just pick up the EU players and push NA players out? Would KR imports skyrocket because EU players no longer take up spots themselves? Honestly the idea with a mega LCS sounds kinda cool, and then you remember it would be a logistics nightmare and likely worse in the long run. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
There's also the issue of the teams not being good at generating fandom. Fnatic is around, but OG is gone. Gambit got screwed by visas. EG/Alliance left/disbanded. There aren't many buge fandoms left in EU outside of Fnatic and maybe UOL. You could also say that due to German laws making the times for EU bad for gaining viewers. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On September 04 2017 05:56 JimmiC wrote: All could be true. You are just not in a good negotiating position when now NA has 4x the viewers. It would be like the NHL complaining that the NFL has a better T.V. Deal. Dude come one I get where you are coming from but going from a nonsense number to an even more absurd one is not a way to discuss. The numbers on reddit from the bot that counts the overall viewers: EU final: 358k NA final: 408k That is 14% more for NA not 300%. Difference on 3rd place match was even smaller. Maybe it is sometimes different idk but never was twice as much for NA let alone 4 times lol. Should also be noted that it is a downward trend overall. Lastly, people are way overestimating the role of viewers since teams are not directly profiting from them. The money is coming from rather irrational investors who we can not really expect to ever see an adequate return. And in NA there are apparently way more investors ready to make a huge leap of faith and burn some money. It is the vc culture at work. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Torchise
Canada245 Posts
On September 04 2017 10:27 JimmiC wrote: From the viewer count on this site. You mean the numbers in the Live Streams section? It only shows how many viewers are on twitch.tv for the main english stream. To get the real number (which the Reddit bot gets right), you have to take into account all the separate language streams for EU (french, german, etc.) as well as the Youtube streams, which add up to the 350K+ figure for the EU LCS finals that was mentioned above. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 04 2017 08:44 Redox wrote: Dude come one I get where you are coming from but going from a nonsense number to an even more absurd one is not a way to discuss. The numbers on reddit from the bot that counts the overall viewers: EU final: 358k NA final: 408k That is 14% more for NA not 300%. Difference on 3rd place match was even smaller. Maybe it is sometimes different idk but never was twice as much for NA let alone 4 times lol. Should also be noted that it is a downward trend overall. Lastly, people are way overestimating the role of viewers since teams are not directly profiting from them. The money is coming from rather irrational investors who we can not really expect to ever see an adequate return. And in NA there are apparently way more investors ready to make a huge leap of faith and burn some money. It is the vc culture at work. Finals is a bad judge of league popularity though. There's more people willing to watch TL games than NiP games. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On September 04 2017 11:58 Gahlo wrote: Finals is a bad judge of league popularity though. There's more people willing to watch TL games than NiP games. Comparing TL and NiP isn't a fair fight. TL is one of the most popular Esports brand in existence and NiP is pretty much a CS org as far as I know. Also the fact that NiP was a bunch of literal whos being the punching bag of LCS for 10 weeks where TL has some established members and put up fights randomly. A much better comparison would be something like Mysterious Monkeys to P1 viewership wise | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 04 2017 12:24 chipmonklord17 wrote: Comparing TL and NiP isn't a fair fight. TL is one of the most popular Esports brand in existence and NiP is pretty much a CS org as far as I know. Also the fact that NiP was a bunch of literal whos being the punching bag of LCS for 10 weeks where TL has some established members and put up fights randomly. A much better comparison would be something like Mysterious Monkeys to P1 viewership wise But even then, there's some hype about P1 because people know Arrow is good and they want to see if Mike is gonna pop off or not. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
Edit: Okay, it was all a ruse. NEVERMIND. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On September 04 2017 12:33 Gahlo wrote: But even then, there's some hype about P1 because people know Arrow is good and they want to see if Mike is gonna pop off or not. That's probably the closest you're gonna get though because both orgs are on a roughly even level when it comes to notoriety. Although it does seem like EU is stuck in a catch 22 where half the brands no one cares about, and no one cares about them so they get no exposure. I legit forgot Vitality was a team until the EU retrospective after the finals and I follow League every day. This problem doesn't really exist in NA because even the orgs that are doing the worst (EF/P1/TL) have reasons to be interested in them, and the ones that are good get noticed just for being good. Does anyone on here have MM flair? | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On September 04 2017 15:36 chipmonklord17 wrote: That's probably the closest you're gonna get though because both orgs are on a roughly even level when it comes to notoriety. Although it does seem like EU is stuck in a catch 22 where half the brands no one cares about, and no one cares about them so they get no exposure. I legit forgot Vitality was a team until the EU retrospective after the finals and I follow League every day. This problem doesn't really exist in NA because even the orgs that are doing the worst (EF/P1/TL) have reasons to be interested in them, and the ones that are good get noticed just for being good. Does anyone on here have MM flair? I find it strange that the NA scene is so much bigger than the EU, despite the player base being heavily skewed to the combination of EUW and EUNE. I would not solely blame orgs not building up their fan bases in EU, but also because Riot has always seemed to invest more money and effort into NA, and over the years this has created a vastly inferior region infrastructure wise. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 04 2017 18:41 DarkCore wrote: I find it strange that the NA scene is so much bigger than the EU, despite the player base being heavily skewed to the combination of EUW and EUNE. I would not solely blame orgs not building up their fan bases in EU, but also because Riot has always seemed to invest more money and effort into NA, and over the years this has created a vastly inferior region infrastructure wise. Some of it is just the nature of the NA market. It's a homogeneous market that generally cares a lot more about personality then about results. NA having more money in League isn't an outlier. It happened in CSGO too where NA players were getting salaries higher than EU players even though NA does jack all in CSGO. You also tend to see a lot more angel investing going on in NA. It's no coincidence that you get a whole slew of basketball investors coming in. They follow fads in packs. Someone got into the circle and did a pitch to sell LCS which gained enough traction to get some guys interested and once you have a few the others dive in because they don't want to be left behind. If the opportunity doesn't work then they just move on. Lastly Riot pushed out the endemic orgs from league. When you look at CSGO/Dota etc. you get teams that have built up fandom for 10+ years throughout other titles as well as the primary title. EG is still has a huge fanbase while from yesteryear. The CIS scene that is a big backbone of European rivalry was completely ignored for most of league history. Even when you look at NA it's not like these new teams have that many fans, it's the old guard who built up their fandom that have the fans. EU lost most of those teams. Riot created an environment where it just made no sense to be in league if you wanted to build a sustainable brand. Can you imagine what EU LCS would look like if we still had the likes of Alliance, Fnatic, SK, G2, VP, Gambit, Navi, NiP etc. Tell me then that there wouldn't be fandom. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
I agree with fault where fault is, like kicking EG/Alliance out, but blaming Riot for VP/Gambit/Navi leaving EU LCS isn't fair. Especially when all 3 have teams in the LCL, hell Gambit will be at worlds. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Meanwhile UOL is the crazy wacky team, except they aren't any more. G2 is the boring win team. And that's about it. There's no character to EU teams. Nothing remotely interesting about them. They have no personality and no story. G2 being villains is the closest we have for now, but their continued faceplanting on the international stage makes it really hard to write a dominant villain storyline. On September 02 2017 14:21 Sent. wrote: http://www.h2k.gg/story/h2ks-letter-to-the-eu-lcs-community/ Don't like how making shitty PR statements like this became the most effective way of getting Riot to cooperate with you. So ... I'm surprised no one has said this, but h2k said they lost $2.5m total thus far, but said that this was not counting their brand value or sponsorship revenue. Am I missing something, or is that like 99% of the other side of the balance sheet? Like I don't doubt that you are having issues, but it is kind of bullshit to claim that your LCS team is sustaining massive losses while ignoring the most valuable parts of your LCS team. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/f05559b918077f3aecacc7fcb69b7bd0.jpg) | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Anyway we could discuss H2K stuff for days, end of the day it's them doing the same shady shit NA LCS guys did earlier. Trying to force public opinion on their side to cover up their business model and achieve their goals. Man when did I land up on Riots side. At least I still despise what they did the with scene regardless lol | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/20563464/sources-eu-lcs-split-four-regions | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Tying teams to locales, as antiquated as it sounds, is an effective way to build team loyalty and fandom. Look at how crazy the NA/EU rivalry is, for no real reason aside from nationalism. We are inherently loyal to certain things. It's why college football is so insanely popular. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
Also this offers the possibility for lower teams (former challenger teams) to gain experience by playing the top teams and gives them more exposure. So the former challenger scene actually profits the most from this. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
I don't know if having more teams would be better, I do hope they manage to get CIS more linked in to the rest of Europe. Those rivalries always boosted so much in other games. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On September 06 2017 06:43 Numy wrote: I always loved how esports transcended boundaries and wasn't locked to your little region. The way things are moving it seems my kind of thinking is outdated. Yeah both this and Overwatch League seem to want me to cheer for teams because they're based in London and it's just annoying, if anything I'm going to root against them. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
League probably needs this to make sponsors work well in Europe. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On September 06 2017 06:45 Gahlo wrote: The supposed structure of OWL is just shit for brains level stupidity in general. League probably needs this to make sponsors work well in Europe. Yeah I think part of the point is for example that a German sponsor wants their German team to be watched by a German audience. They dont care about those other viewers because they are not their customers. Basically, because sponsors are often region/country-specific they want the same for teams. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 06 2017 06:51 Ansibled wrote: There not being a Nordic mini league seems kind of odd to me given how many LCS players are from there. Reading through responses on Reddit, somebody said the placements make sense. Berlin is where they already are. Paris and Barcelona have been places they've gone to recently. London is a shit ton of money. Would Nodric countries have the financial backing to support a league?(honestly, I've got no clue) 24 teams is stretching it pretty far as it is, who wants to go to 30? | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On September 06 2017 06:51 Ansibled wrote: There not being a Nordic mini league seems kind of odd to me given how many LCS players are from there. Another indicator that this is about sponsors / purchasing power. I agree it sucks for the nordics and the east. Though I can imagine if you put for example a Polish team in the German region that would get the Polish to watch for rivalry reasons. :D Although the chat might become even more retarded than it already is with the EU vs NA thing, as hard as that is to imagine. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On September 06 2017 07:01 Gahlo wrote: Reading through responses on Reddit, somebody said the placements make sense. Berlin is where they already are. Paris and Barcelona have been places they've gone to recently. London is a shit ton of money. Would Nodric countries have the financial backing to support a league?(honestly, I've got no clue) 24 teams is stretching it pretty far as it is, who wants to go to 30? Well you have a decent amount of Nordic teams in CounterStrike. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 06 2017 07:07 Ansibled wrote: Well you have a decent amount of Nordic teams in CounterStrike. CS:GO is also incredibly team friendly to monetisation through stickers. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Champions league works because the regional leagues came first, otherwise there would be no regional league. | ||
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ruypture
United States367 Posts
someone should point out to me the good in these potential changes because i can't see them from my perspective. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
Its easier to find someone to sponsor a french thing, an english thing, a german thing, and a spanish thing for 1000$ each than it is to find someone willing to throw down 2000$ for the whole package. I think the overall money coming in is going to be better, the same reason NA makes so much more money is the reason separate regions with separate marketing is going to be better for sponsorship. This also creates more natural interest in the 'champions league' as you want to root for your region. I think this is a great move to generate interest and money for EU. The biggest problem is the initial formation is going to require a ton of new teams. I hope more football teams buy in like PSG and Schalke did cause getting this off the ground i think is the hard part. Also its a fee to buy a license to join the league for X years. Give the guarantee return on investment and solves the problem of the cheapo rosters not getting removed. Also gives more control to riot which can be a good/bad thing. Overall i dont' really see a downside. It's essentially franchising but split into regions to make it easier to invest. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
Might work with franchising, but only if enough good teams join up at the start. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 06 2017 14:04 Kaneh wrote: I think regions is good. Its easier to find someone to sponsor a french thing, an english thing, a german thing, and a spanish thing for 1000$ each than it is to find someone willing to throw down 2000$ for the whole package. I think the overall money coming in is going to be better, the same reason NA makes so much more money is the reason separate regions with separate marketing is going to be better for sponsorship. This also creates more natural interest in the 'champions league' as you want to root for your region. I think this is a great move to generate interest and money for EU. The biggest problem is the initial formation is going to require a ton of new teams. I hope more football teams buy in like PSG and Schalke did cause getting this off the ground i think is the hard part. Also its a fee to buy a license to join the league for X years. Give the guarantee return on investment and solves the problem of the cheapo rosters not getting removed. Also gives more control to riot which can be a good/bad thing. Overall i dont' really see a downside. It's essentially franchising but split into regions to make it easier to invest. I don't see how it makes it easier to invest. The problem is too little money per team, more than doubling the#of NA teams in EU means they need to more than double the money of NA.Unless they are selling out Wembley.or Camp Nou every week at the mini LCS its not gonna happen. This is, of course, a fundamental problem with the LCS model itself. Regular season games so not generate nearly the viewership or attendence #s that tournaments do per broadcast, but still require just as many resources per broadcast. In many ways it requires more resources because it means you have to maintain all these low level teams, but they need to be decent for league play to be compelling at all. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 06 2017 15:52 DarkCore wrote: They need to find enough good teams to fill this many leagues first, otherwise it would be a disaster. I don't want to watch G2 own their region, gain no real form of practice, and then go to worlds to get slaughtered (even worse than before). The overall quality of teams would have to increase for this to work, and H2K told us that most EU LCS teams are struggling with money. Might work with franchising, but only if enough good teams join up at the start. The problem with this leak is that not enough details are given about the upper league, which sounds very similar to EULCS as we know it. On September 06 2017 16:17 cLutZ wrote: I don't see how it makes it easier to invest. The problem is too little money per team, more than doubling the#of NA teams in EU means they need to more than double the money of NA.Unless they are selling out Wembley.or Camp Nou every week at the mini LCS its not gonna happen. This is, of course, a fundamental problem with the LCS model itself. Regular season games so not generate nearly the viewership or attendence #s that tournaments do per broadcast, but still require just as many resources per broadcast. In many ways it requires more resources because it means you have to maintain all these low level teams, but they need to be decent for league play to be compelling at all. Let's use Coke as an example. If an NA team wanted to go after a Coke sponsorship, it would be pretty easy. I'm not sure if there's a Coke Canada division, but if there is they could just negotiate with Coke USA and be done with it. Because EU is as fragmented a market as it is due to cultures and language, there is no Coke EU. There's a Coke France, Coke UK, Coke Germany, and all the money Coke invests into EU is split, so each of those subdivisions has less money to spend on advertising - in this case sponsorships. So there's less incentive for these subdivisions to sponsor teams because those sponsorships don't target their specific area and get as much exposure where it matters for their bottom line. A team won't be able to pick up sponsorships from multiple subdivisions because the Coke name is already slapped on stuff, namedropped, and having their products placed, so once one group sponsors a team, that well has dried up for them. These smaller, regional league will make the impact of sponsoring a team better for the individual sponsors. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 06 2017 15:52 DarkCore wrote: They need to find enough good teams to fill this many leagues first, otherwise it would be a disaster. I don't want to watch G2 own their region, gain no real form of practice, and then go to worlds to get slaughtered (even worse than before). The overall quality of teams would have to increase for this to work, and H2K told us that most EU LCS teams are struggling with money. Might work with franchising, but only if enough good teams join up at the start. On the contrary, I think this is extremely promising for talent development. You can't break into the scene if there's an exclusive clique at the top that keeps re-hiring the same old awful players because they're buddy-buddy. We live in a world where the third-best EU rookie last split was the fucking MM support - how many of you even remember who he is without looking him up? Are there really that few talented players in EU? Now there's actually opportunity for promising players to get meaningful experience, instead of spending their entire careers wallowing in CS playing against other shitty teams, getting shitstomped by an LCS team twice a year. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 06 2017 16:17 cLutZ wrote: I don't see how it makes it easier to invest. The problem is too little money per team, more than doubling the#of NA teams in EU means they need to more than double the money of NA.Unless they are selling out Wembley.or Camp Nou every week at the mini LCS its not gonna happen. This is, of course, a fundamental problem with the LCS model itself. Regular season games so not generate nearly the viewership or attendence #s that tournaments do per broadcast, but still require just as many resources per broadcast. In many ways it requires more resources because it means you have to maintain all these low level teams, but they need to be decent for league play to be compelling at all. You are fundamentally misunderstanding the business model of LCS. LCS will never, ever be profitable from viewership or attendance. Not at 24 teams, not at 10 teams, not even if it was two teams playing in Phreak's basement once a month. LCS is a loss leader for Riot. That's the reason it exists - to get people to play League. Riot is willing to lose $X on LCS in order to make $Y on RP. Riot literally pays for TSM, CLG, etc.'s very existence, because that's chump change compared to the amount they make back in RP. So all of this drama stems from the fact that it's kind of awkward for the teams participating in LCS. Are they supposed to be making money like billionaires in the NFL/EPL? Or are they supposed to be losing money like Riot? They want revenue sharing, but the LCS revenue doesn't exist. The money is all in the RP - but how much of that do you attribute that to the teams? How much should they get and how much should Riot get? And whatever percentage you set, the teams will always, always demand more. It's why Riot is very eager to get sponsors and "outside" money to come in. Making the pie bigger is the easiest way to avoid fights over how to divide the pie. And the best way to get sponsorships in EU is to localize the teams, because Coke Germany sure as hell isn't advertising in Barcelona. With localization comes national pride and a stronger fanbase as well. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 07 2017 00:43 Sent. wrote: So who's paying for all those Pepsi or Nike ads in Champion's League final? Pepsi Spain or Nike Germany? Does that mean Pepsi France gets exposure for FREE??? That's big enough that the different subdivisions can advertise for it properly and not be a big waste of time. League isn't Soccer/Football. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
It's why Riot is very eager to get sponsors and "outside" money to come in. Making the pie bigger is the easiest way to avoid fights over how to divide the pie. And the best way to get sponsorships in EU is to localize the teams, because Coke Germany sure as hell isn't advertising in Barcelona. With localization comes national pride and a stronger fanbase as well. That I can agree with. Entertainment like esports doesn't generate its own money, it's what's around it, aka the viewership and advertising, where the real money is. Teams probably make some money off merchandise and events maybe, but not much. On the contrary, I think this is extremely promising for talent development. You can't break into the scene if there's an exclusive clique at the top that keeps re-hiring the same old awful players because they're buddy-buddy. We live in a world where the third-best EU rookie last split was the fucking MM support - how many of you even remember who he is without looking him up? Are there really that few talented players in EU? Now there's actually opportunity for promising players to get meaningful experience, instead of spending their entire careers wallowing in CS playing against other shitty teams, getting shitstomped by an LCS team twice a year. Teams aren't rehiring awful players like Kikis because they're buddies, but because bottom LCS is so volatile and teams get shredded when they leave/enter LCS, and those players are the ones who keep coming back, while other talent leaves. Look at the two teams that promoted in the Summer split, MFA and FNA. MFA became MM and took half the FNA roster, who disbanded because NIP bought the spot and negotiations failed. Both teams ended up dead last, they have less combined wins than every other team in the league. Both teams have failed the promos, they're getting replaced by Schalke and Giants, who have a mix of new and old players. From what I've seen, both those teams are retaining their rosters. CS isn't exactly noncompetitive compared to bottom EU LCS, the last two splits both CS teams made it into LCS, and the split before one of the two made it in. But the best talent we've seen has almost always been players who were nurtured in the environment of some big team. Examples would be Caps, Broxah, Contractz, Cody Sun. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 06 2017 19:09 Gahlo wrote: Let's use Coke as an example. If an NA team wanted to go after a Coke sponsorship, it would be pretty easy. I'm not sure if there's a Coke Canada division, but if there is they could just negotiate with Coke USA and be done with it. Because EU is as fragmented a market as it is due to cultures and language, there is no Coke EU. There's a Coke France, Coke UK, Coke Germany, and all the money Coke invests into EU is split, so each of those subdivisions has less money to spend on advertising - in this case sponsorships. So there's less incentive for these subdivisions to sponsor teams because those sponsorships don't target their specific area and get as much exposure where it matters for their bottom line. A team won't be able to pick up sponsorships from multiple subdivisions because the Coke name is already slapped on stuff, namedropped, and having their products placed, so once one group sponsors a team, that well has dried up for them. These smaller, regional league will make the impact of sponsoring a team better for the individual sponsors. I understand the idea, I just don't think it will work nearly that well in practice. Lets say I am G2, and I become G2-London. Right now I go to Coke-UK and they ask me for the viewership #s and ad impressions in the UK and I give them a number, then I say, "look, you also get these incidental impressions in the rest of the EU + America." Then we make a deal. If I become G2-London, the process does not change when I am negotiating with Coke-UK, except the overall (and probably even UK-only) viewership numbers are much lower for my regular play, and I also have this Champions league impressions that I want to monetize (which is probably what sponsors will actually be interested in sponsoring, the teams that make Champions), but its hard to promise that I, G2 will be in it (at least as hard as staying in EU LCS itself, which is one thing that teams have always pointed to as a problem in sponsorship negotiations). No. Team sponsorships are kind of irrelevant to the entire model (and are a red herring). The issue is monetizing the viewers of the entire league with ads (and a league sponsorship is not a bad place to start). Frankly, despite people poo-pooing it, gate/ticket revenues should still be a significant portion of league revenue when esports are this small. For most us pro leagues gate revenue was higher than TV revenue up into the 90s. On September 06 2017 23:45 GrandInquisitor wrote: You are fundamentally misunderstanding the business model of LCS. LCS will never, ever be profitable from viewership or attendance. Not at 24 teams, not at 10 teams, not even if it was two teams playing in Phreak's basement once a month. LCS is a loss leader for Riot. That's the reason it exists - to get people to play League. Riot is willing to lose $X on LCS in order to make $Y on RP. Riot literally pays for TSM, CLG, etc.'s very existence, because that's chump change compared to the amount they make back in RP. So all of this drama stems from the fact that it's kind of awkward for the teams participating in LCS. Are they supposed to be making money like billionaires in the NFL/EPL? Or are they supposed to be losing money like Riot? They want revenue sharing, but the LCS revenue doesn't exist. The money is all in the RP - but how much of that do you attribute that to the teams? How much should they get and how much should Riot get? And whatever percentage you set, the teams will always, always demand more. It's why Riot is very eager to get sponsors and "outside" money to come in. Making the pie bigger is the easiest way to avoid fights over how to divide the pie. And the best way to get sponsorships in EU is to localize the teams, because Coke Germany sure as hell isn't advertising in Barcelona. With localization comes national pride and a stronger fanbase as well. Actually no, I get the model from Riot's perspective, but the Riot loss-leader model has been a problem since at latest 2014 (when your statement "Riot literally pays for TSM, CLG, etc.'s very existence" became financially untrue) when the stipends were quickly outpaced by salaries and other LCS-related costs. So, yes, your statement that "its kind of awkward for teams participating in the LCS" is totally true, and it is where the conflict comes from. There are basically 3 types of teams in the LCS right now: 1. Teams founded on League. TSM, CLG, Origen. These teams have owners that are deeply invested in LOL, and need the LOL team to be the face of the franchise. They are loss-leaders for sponsorship networks and websites, and other branded things, kind of like Riot. They would simply be happy breaking even with the team because the rest of the brand would make up for it. 2. Teams that have tons of VC. IMT, new Dig, etc. These teams are in the leagues based on pure speculation that eventually Riot would figure out/be forced to do what they re doing with NA LCS + get additional sponsors (aka calling it the NA LCS brought to you by Coke, run in-stream ads instead of the terrible twitch/youtube ads, etc). If the sponsorship money (not team sponsors, league-wide and viewership sponsors) doesn't come through, these guys leave, and the LCS bubble pops. 3. Teams that are waiting to sell to VC. This is the Flyquests of the world. These guys see all this VC money, and are simply getting their slice before they retire. The fact is that all the teams needed Riot to franchise, or not, and be clear on the amount of money they would be getting from league-wide ads. IMO the valuations are still very high, but the good thing for NA teams is they can cut back on salary once they get their franchise approved and become a "talent seeking" team that looks for gems, then once they hit on a few can sign a few big names and compete for championships for a few years. The real killer right now is being a team like TL who has big money and no results. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 07 2017 05:12 Numy wrote: Is TSM VC? I thought they were still independent? C9 as well? Last I heard everybody was VC backed and TSM was looking at options, trying to maintain a controlling majority. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
More teams in EU need VC or a private investor. Maybe that's what Riot hopes to achieve with splitting the scene, but they should have confirmed interested entities before doing it. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 07 2017 05:51 DarkCore wrote: Honestly I can understand if Regi did that. Having a 25% stake in a well funded esports brand that continues to expand into new games and has room to try things out seems much better than trying to slowly grow your own brand, where any mistake can cost you heavily. More teams in EU need VC or a private investor. Maybe that's what Riot hopes to achieve with splitting the scene, but they should have confirmed interested entities before doing it. If Regi was risk adverse he would never have done what he did. Having 25% Stake is far worse than having 50+ stake and growing it himself for someone with drive. The guy has built an amazingly successful brand and is in a position to expand that brand even further. If he gives up that much control over it I'd be really surprised. Maybe I just have the complete wrong impression but he seemed to have the drive to be at the top in charge not sitting back with some a fat cheque. Could have cashed out long ago if that was his motivation. Unless forced to I think he'll go with the best compromise that leaves him in the most control while offering enough funding to do what he wants. He's in the unique position of having enough bargaining power to achieve that | ||
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Torchise
Canada245 Posts
On September 07 2017 05:38 Gahlo wrote: Last I heard everybody was VC backed and TSM was looking at options, trying to maintain a controlling majority. Yup, that's pretty much it, all endemic NA LCS teams except TSM (this means C9, CLG, TL) have received VC funding this year, presumably since it was their only option to pay the 10M$ franchising fee: - C9: https://pvplive.com/c/cloud9-announces-funding-by-elite-group-of-sports- - CLG: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/6qolfc/official_msg_co_acquires_controlling_stake_in/ - TL: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/6nfhhm/disney_invests_in_team_liquid/ All other teams in the NA LCS were VC-backed from the get-go, including Flyquest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FlyQuest | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
The fact is that all the teams needed Riot to franchise, or not, and be clear on the amount of money they would be getting from league-wide ads. IMO the valuations are still very high, but the good thing for NA teams is they can cut back on salary once they get their franchise approved and become a "talent seeking" team that looks for gems, then once they hit on a few can sign a few big names and compete for championships for a few years. The real killer right now is being a team like TL who has big money and no results. nope. The money they get from riot is a tiny consideration compared to the stability franchising brings to a brand. Its not some bubble. The value is in the brand. Its why the houston rockets were sold for 2.2 billion. Do you think the players, staff, and all that are worth 2.2 billion? hell no. its the brand that's worth that much. Its why they pay ridiculous salaries. Its the exact same shit in league. The brands are going to grow, which is why VCs are all getting into this. Its the next sports league and they want in. EU teams missed the memo tho, they thought winning prize money and getting paltry handouts from riot was how you made profit. Instead of building a brand to sell to advertisers. Now riot EU has to forcibly help these terrible orgs make money. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 07 2017 12:29 Kaneh wrote: nope. The money they get from riot is a tiny consideration compared to the stability franchising brings to a brand. Its not some bubble. The value is in the brand. Its why the houston rockets were sold for 2.2 billion. Do you think the players, staff, and all that are worth 2.2 billion? hell no. its the brand that's worth that much. Its why they pay ridiculous salaries. Its the exact same shit in league. The brands are going to grow, which is why VCs are all getting into this. Its the next sports league and they want in. EU teams missed the memo tho, they thought winning prize money and getting paltry handouts from riot was how you made profit. Instead of building a brand to sell to advertisers. Now riot EU has to forcibly help these terrible orgs make money. I'm glad you brought up the NBA, because it makes your point more laughable than otherwise. The Rockets sold for that much for a few reasons: 1. 4th Biggest Market in the NBA; 2. NBA has national TV deals that ensure significant league-wide revenues for years to come, and live sports is seen as a bulletproof industry atm (whether this is true is up for smarter people than the smartest VC investors); 3. The NBA CBA ensures no team can lose money unless they are realllllllllllllly stupid; and 4. Sports franchises are basically pieces of art for billionaires. The Houston Rockets are basically a Picasso that also gives off a dividend. These features do not apply to most Esports franchises. #4 is probably the biggest part of the Houston valuation, and its not applicable. The "brand value" in a traditional Coke or Chevy sense is only a tiny portion of an NBA teams valuation (merch and team ads are almost negligible). Saying, "the value is the brand" is silly, NBA/NFL/MLB teams went decades being valued as standard investments where people would buy them for 10x multiples of yearly earnings. Its only very recently that sports franchise valuations have exploded and it is because of TV revenues (both national and local tv deals went way up 2000-Present) and because the # of billionaires who want to buy an expensive toy has gone up. Don't think the "billionaires toy" theory is correct? Look at Manchester City and Paris Saint-Germain. Those teams lose money, but the owners just want to win titles. They are literally buying trophies. The Manchester United owners (same as the Tampa Bay Buccaneers owners) are losing ground in the EPL/Champions league because they insist on breaking even/turning a profit ala their US sports franchises, but its nearly impossible to win titles while turning a profit in the modern era (Good work Leicester, you truly amaze me). | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 07 2017 12:29 Kaneh wrote: nope. The money they get from riot is a tiny consideration compared to the stability franchising brings to a brand. Its not some bubble. The value is in the brand. Its why the houston rockets were sold for 2.2 billion. Do you think the players, staff, and all that are worth 2.2 billion? hell no. its the brand that's worth that much. Its why they pay ridiculous salaries. Its the exact same shit in league. The brands are going to grow, which is why VCs are all getting into this. Its the next sports league and they want in. EU teams missed the memo tho, they thought winning prize money and getting paltry handouts from riot was how you made profit. Instead of building a brand to sell to advertisers. Now riot EU has to forcibly help these terrible orgs make money. My thoughts exactly. I legitimately 100% cannot get over the fact that h2k's big announcement about their losses ignores its brand value and sponsorships. It is just as ridiculous as the Rockets claiming their players and staff and equipment are worth $2.2 billion. h2k is either being intentionally and extremely misleading, or they have a Redditor as CFO who truly thought prize money + stipend was going to pay for the cost of owning an LCS team. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
I'd consider bottom NA teams better than bottom EU teams, at least in comparison to their Challenger scenes. The last three promotions, only one Challenger team has made it through, and that was FlyQuest lol. Yeah, the teams that make it to promos seem to also have money, but they're at a disadvantage because their opponents have been playing and scrimming in the more competitive LCS. It's sad for them, but for the viewer, I think franchising is the better deal. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
London: Fnatic, G2, Misfits, Splyce Berlin: UoL, S04, Roccat Barcelona: H2K, Giants Paris: Vitality | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Interesting to see Ocelote not pick Barcelona and have his team in his home country. Last I checked, H2K was a UK based org too. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Idk this whole thing is so weird it's hard to judge anything. | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 08 2017 04:55 cLutZ wrote: TLDR: Riot needs to monetize the streams better. They have that big MLB project that we haven't heard anything about lately. I wonder how that's going. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On September 08 2017 04:40 Gahlo wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swy8YDxqS7Y Well done video, which really dumbs it down. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
On September 07 2017 13:03 cLutZ wrote: I'm glad you brought up the NBA, because it makes your point more laughable than otherwise. The Rockets sold for that much for a few reasons: 1. 4th Biggest Market in the NBA; 2. NBA has national TV deals that ensure significant league-wide revenues for years to come, and live sports is seen as a bulletproof industry atm (whether this is true is up for smarter people than the smartest VC investors); 3. The NBA CBA ensures no team can lose money unless they are realllllllllllllly stupid; and 4. Sports franchises are basically pieces of art for billionaires. The Houston Rockets are basically a Picasso that also gives off a dividend. These features do not apply to most Esports franchises. #4 is probably the biggest part of the Houston valuation, and its not applicable. The "brand value" in a traditional Coke or Chevy sense is only a tiny portion of an NBA teams valuation (merch and team ads are almost negligible). Saying, "the value is the brand" is silly, NBA/NFL/MLB teams went decades being valued as standard investments where people would buy them for 10x multiples of yearly earnings. Its only very recently that sports franchise valuations have exploded and it is because of TV revenues (both national and local tv deals went way up 2000-Present) and because the # of billionaires who want to buy an expensive toy has gone up. Don't think the "billionaires toy" theory is correct? Look at Manchester City and Paris Saint-Germain. Those teams lose money, but the owners just want to win titles. They are literally buying trophies. The Manchester United owners (same as the Tampa Bay Buccaneers owners) are losing ground in the EPL/Champions league because they insist on breaking even/turning a profit ala their US sports franchises, but its nearly impossible to win titles while turning a profit in the modern era (Good work Leicester, you truly amaze me). Valuation is not directly tied to revenue. That's 80s finacial thinking. Reading up on your man city and PSG examples. PSG was bought for 80 million in 2012. Its now worth almost 500mil. Same with manchester city, 200mil in 2008 is now 2 billion. They spent money yes, but they got way more in terms of brand value and worth. Forbes doesn't just value things randomly or treat it like a rich man's toy. These things have actual value to advertisers and other revenue streams. so no, its not billionaire's toys. Its billionaire's investments, and they are making a ton of money off these investments by turning low value brands into worldwide brands. The paradigm shift is essentially: Popularity is an actual product. This is what they are buying and investing in. It seems ridiculous, but there is actual demonstrable value to being popular and well-known. If people had to buy a tshirt, and one had the TSM logo and one had some random other logo they didn't recognise, guess which one is getting bought, even if you didn't directly advertise the tshirt? Put another way, how much money would pepsi pay to switch names with coke. literally nothing else changes but the names. That's the invisible value of branding. And these esports teams, they're very, very, popular with some very hard to reach demographics. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
sports franchise valuations going up is likely a vanity thing. what better way to flaunt your wealth than owing a team who's name is on TV and seen by tens of millions weekly? the influx of foreign dollars has further inflated value. LCS needs more scale for individual, non-top teams to be profitable. personally, i don't think the market has hit it's peak. without outside money and influence it's probably not going to grow much more; but with it it can. the investor's idea isn't to put a chunk of money in a business that won't grow, it's to put it in a business, so the business can grow and then their slice of it becomes bigger. It's no guarantee that League will succeed, but the influx of money and influence is definitely a critical factor to the possibility of it doing so. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 10 2017 02:00 ticklishmusic wrote: due to the low-interest rate environment you do see a lot of investors going into more risky things in order to enhance their returns. however, there are plenty of great places for billionaires to park their money and watch it grow. a random scrub like me can buy into indexes and get a pretty reliable high single digit return year after year. a billionaire can put his money into all sorts of things like a VC/PE fund or something and get like 20-30% a year. This thread is full of misconceptions about finance, and the claim that billionaires can safely earn 20-30% per year, so investing in sports teams must therefore be just a pet project, probably tops the list. 30% rate of growth would quadruple a billionaire's money in five years. By your logic people should be borrowing on margin at 5x prevailing interest rates to invest into these VC/PE funds. Look, I don't doubt that vanity is part of why people own sports teams. But there are major tax reasons to own sports teams. This is a decent overview of a few such tricks. Indeed, there are some sports teams that are specifically valuable because they generate certain kinds of paper losses, to be used to offset other income. Most of those reasons apply (obviously to a much lower degree) to esports teams, but I doubt that that's the main reason teams are getting into esports. The numbers just aren't big enough. For now esports is almost certainly more just a cheap investment that has high upside in the long run. If you're getting into esports as a short-term income-generating asset you are missing the point. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
The fact VC funds have 2% fees straight up and then have additional fees on top of that makes me believe it is more about filling the pockets of the investment managers and less about maintaining high returns. Then you throw in the risk of legitimate scammers on top of the "legitimate" VC funds, and I would stay far away if I were rich. You'd probably be better off throwing your money in the market at random than a VC fund. Private equity doesn't seem any better, except they used to get better returns in the past. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On September 10 2017 07:21 GrandInquisitor wrote: This thread is full of misconceptions about finance, and the claim that billionaires can safely earn 20-30% per year, so investing in sports teams must therefore be just a pet project, probably tops the list. 30% rate of growth would quadruple a billionaire's money in five years. By your logic people should be borrowing on margin at 5x prevailing interest rates to invest into these VC/PE funds. Look, I don't doubt that vanity is part of why people own sports teams. But there are major tax reasons to own sports teams. This is a decent overview of a few such tricks. Indeed, there are some sports teams that are specifically valuable because they generate certain kinds of paper losses, to be used to offset other income. Most of those reasons apply (obviously to a much lower degree) to esports teams, but I doubt that that's the main reason teams are getting into esports. The numbers just aren't big enough. For now esports is almost certainly more just a cheap investment that has high upside in the long run. If you're getting into esports as a short-term income-generating asset you are missing the point. I work in VC and made an oversimplification. The IRR of the top quartile of funds is easily that high. Of course you have the firm taking its cut and if it's a fund of funds then the other managers are taking cuts too. While PE/VC are more risky due to illiquidity, the quality of information and other factors however, from a risk/return perspective it is far better than what a retail investor can get. However like anyone else a rich guy is going to diversify his portfolio, the same way (most) people don't dump their retirement fund into Facebook. An esports team is a VC investment. Throw a few million at a team. If it gets big, then it covers the investment and perhaps a dozen like it. If it doesn't then oh well it's just a few million and they'll make it up and ten some somewhere else. For most people it's a tiny, tiny investment among many. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On September 12 2017 06:14 Gahlo wrote: Where's the thread for Worlds? Group drawings are tomorrow morning at 5AM PST! Will be coming out today! | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 13 2017 05:52 geript wrote: I don't think TSM could've gotten a more favorable groups draw. Group A should give SKT a tough time too with EDG and AHQ. Immortals kinda lucked out too with drawing Longzhu and Gigabyte Marines. G2 got kinda fucked by getting Samsung and RNG. TSM got FW and Misfits; if they don't get out of groups I will laugh my ass off because they should be able to get first (though I'd still favor FW). You know unless there's an upset in the play-in stage that WE is guaranteed to be in group D too, right? | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On September 13 2017 05:58 Gahlo wrote: You know unless there's an upset in the play-in stage that WE is guaranteed to be in group D too, right? There's still no reason for TSM to not be able to beat those two. They can beat WE too. Immortals got a favorable draw as well, but I'd still rather have TSM's draw where they should be able to beat any of the three other teams. I'm not a TSM fan; I actually lean closer to Thoorin's and Monte's view of them, but there's still no reason for them to not get out of groups with this favorable a draw. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 13 2017 07:39 geript wrote: There's still no reason for TSM to not be able to beat those two. They can beat WE too. Immortals got a favorable draw as well, but I'd still rather have TSM's draw where they should be able to beat any of the three other teams. I'm not a TSM fan; I actually lean closer to Thoorin's and Monte's view of them, but there's still no reason for them to not get out of groups with this favorable a draw. Definitely agree with you there. There's no excuse unless something drastic happens. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On September 13 2017 05:58 Gahlo wrote: You know unless there's an upset in the play-in stage that WE is guaranteed to be in group D too, right? The only way WE is guaranteed to go into group D is if WE, C9, Fnatic AND Hong Kong Attitude all make it into the group stage: + Show Spoiler [explanation] + WE can go into groups B or D, C9 can go into groups A or C, Fnatic can go into groups A or B, and HKA can go into groups B or C If WE goes into group B, HKA then has to go into group C, C9 then has to go into group A, Fnatic has nowhere to go -> invalid draw, WE must go into group D Considering how regions like Brazil and SEA have been playing spoiler in Worlds lately, I think the scenario where at least one of these teams fails to advance to the group stage is far more likely than the scenario where all 4 of them advance. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 17 2017 13:04 Zato-1 wrote: The only way WE is guaranteed to go into group D is if WE, C9, Fnatic AND Hong Kong Attitude all make it into the group stage: + Show Spoiler [explanation] + WE can go into groups B or D, C9 can go into groups A or C, Fnatic can go into groups A or B, and HKA can go into groups B or C If WE goes into group B, HKA then has to go into group C, C9 then has to go into group A, Fnatic has nowhere to go -> invalid draw, WE must go into group D Considering how regions like Brazil and SEA have been playing spoiler in Worlds lately, I think the scenario where at least one of these teams fails to advance to the group stage is far more likely than the scenario where all 4 of them advance. That's why I said "unless there's an upset". | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
This may be one of the most absurd esports ultimatums you will ever see. Even Monte would have been ashamed to be so brazenly entitled and demanding. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 29 2017 06:59 cLutZ wrote: Lol. On one hand, they are correct about everything they said. On the other, H2K sucks, and 6.5 mil is a lot. I believe that 6.5 is supposed to be split between teams. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
I'm kind of sad they don't use Bo2 for the regular season, but I prefer Bo1 to Bo3 since it definitely drags on too much. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Riot going back to the old format. Guess they embracing the fact that NA will always be shitlords and just meme potential edit: Freak missed your post. .Bo1 is just garbage fire honestly. They should use the old OGN format. The double round robin Bo3 was too much but double round robin Bo1 is practically zero actual league experience for teams while taking forever to finish. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The cynic in me would also point out that this is perfectly timed. Massive increase in viewership right as all the new investors come in. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 30 2017 06:42 geript wrote: Far and away I prefer Bo2. You don't have 3 hour matches plus teams don't have side advantage by getting blue/red twice. Bo2 is where it's at, I agree. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
I also think bo1 is crap, if you watch one team then it means you could potentially see them as short as 20 minutes. Cheese is also rewarded very well, but punished just as extreme. But at the same time because there are so many games, you end up with teams being quite spread out in the table, and it becomes quite hard to catch up. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 30 2017 06:09 GrandInquisitor wrote: The pros apparently want Bo1. If they don't think Bo3 is worth it, then what's the point of Bo3? League pros are so weird. They supposedly practice 24/7 yet play so few actual games a year it's insane. Team Liquid played roughly 29 games at TI7 while EF played 36 the whole year. It's freaking insane how little league pros actually play unless they in teams like TSM who reach finals in playoffs constantly. So they practicing so much for what payoff? Why they want even fewer games is beyond me. edit: I miscounted! Actually had 41 games this split and 43 previous split so 84 games in the year. New schedule would have them playing 36 the year. Definitely think Bo2 is the way and just having more stuff outside of the league. More stuff for teams that aren't the every top too. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 30 2017 07:04 Numy wrote: League pros are so weird. They supposedly practice 24/7 yet play so few actual games a year it's insane. Team Liquid played roughly 29 games at TI7 while EF played 36 the whole year. It's freaking insane how little league pros actually play unless they in teams like TSM who reach finals in playoffs constantly. So they practicing so much for what payoff? Why they want even fewer games is beyond me. edit: I miscounted! Actually had 41 games this split and 43 previous split so 84 games in the year. New schedule would have them playing 36 the year. Definitely think Bo2 is the way and just having more stuff outside of the league. More stuff for teams that aren't the every top too. They, at the very least, want to get rid of multiple streams. With viewership affecting the teams' individual cut of the pie, teams not having to play opposite stream of TSM or the like is pretty big for smaller orgs. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On September 30 2017 07:04 Numy wrote: League pros are so weird. They supposedly practice 24/7 yet play so few actual games a year it's insane. Team Liquid played roughly 29 games at TI7 while EF played 36 the whole year. It's freaking insane how little league pros actually play unless they in teams like TSM who reach finals in playoffs constantly. So they practicing so much for what payoff? Why they want even fewer games is beyond me. edit: I miscounted! Actually had 41 games this split and 43 previous split so 84 games in the year. New schedule would have them playing 36 the year. Definitely think Bo2 is the way and just having more stuff outside of the league. More stuff for teams that aren't the every top too. well there is a reason Korea completely dominates League | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
Did playing a million Bo3s and training like Koreans help TSM last year? Nope, they still didn't make it out of groups. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
IMO, if they want more people watching regular season games, make it a 4 person playoff (or go to the Korea format), that way it means something. I mean, I think if you swapped SKT and LZ's regular season rankings the final result might have been different, but TSM still would have won from the 6 slot. Its kinda like the NBA where everyone good makes it, but also, not like the NBA because midseason games are kinda irrelevant because they have a different ruleset. How much hype would Cavs-Warriors on Christmas lose if we knew the 3-Pt line and hancheck rules would be changed twice before the playoffs? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 30 2017 15:29 cLutZ wrote: I don't think the format is the reason for the ratings drop, aside from it just being too long to sustain good ratings for that long. Really, I just don't think there is much appointment TV in the LCS because almost no good teams miss the playoffs, and also no team that "barely" makes the playoffs really ever has competed for the title. IMO, if they want more people watching regular season games, make it a 4 person playoff (or go to the Korea format), that way it means something. I mean, I think if you swapped SKT and LZ's regular season rankings the final result might have been different, but TSM still would have won from the 6 slot. Its kinda like the NBA where everyone good makes it, but also, not like the NBA because midseason games are kinda irrelevant because they have a different ruleset. How much hype would Cavs-Warriors on Christmas lose if we knew the 3-Pt line and hancheck rules would be changed twice before the playoffs? Apparently Riot was tracking it, and tons of people that watch LCS were only watching around 1.5 games of a bo3, making them untennable for the audience. Not to mention people that wanted to watch everything had up to double the amount of games from a certain day suddenly couldn't unless they made a significant effort due to teh increased time in doing so. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 30 2017 14:39 AdsMoFro wrote: Bo1 is a great idea. Want a league format? Bo1 is the best way to have a league format. Only way Bo3s could be feasible is if you played it the way OGN had it. TOurnament format. Even Bo3 in Korea isn't all that great, but at least there's a culture developed behind it, and teams, in general, are better. Did playing a million Bo3s and training like Koreans help TSM last year? Nope, they still didn't make it out of groups. The best performances for Western teams - 2nd at MSI, 2x semifinalists at Worlds - were from the Bo1 LCS. This massive circlejerk over Bo3 being the One True Path to Being Good is way overblown. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On September 30 2017 14:39 AdsMoFro wrote: Bo1 is a great idea. Want a league format? Bo1 is the best way to have a league format. Only way Bo3s could be feasible is if you played it the way OGN had it. TOurnament format. Even Bo3 in Korea isn't all that great, but at least there's a culture developed behind it, and teams, in general, are better. Did playing a million Bo3s and training like Koreans help TSM last year? Nope, they still didn't make it out of groups. No Bo2 is the best way to have a league format, it more accurately represents the strength of teams and eliminates side difference/patch inconsistencies. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
It feels like reddit circlejerking with no basis. and the people who are actually qualified to make this assesment (players and teams) have indicated the opposite. like what do you gain from bo3? this fabled "experience"? IMO players have said you get more from scrim blocks and adjustments that way - they play bo5 or more during blocks. The biggest thing is stage experience, but honestly its not that big a thing and waaaay less impactful than losing an entire day to a fiesta bo3 taking 3-4 hours. Like a league system will get you the top teams every time. will a team maybe edge into the playoffs when they might be weaker? maybe but we're talking about the 6-7 place teams and the playoffs will ultimately determine who's the best that season and going to msi/worlds anyways. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
like what do you gain from bo3? this fabled "experience"? IMO players have said you get more from scrim blocks and adjustments that way - they play bo5 or more during blocks. Why would the viewers care about what happens during the scrims? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On October 01 2017 04:33 Kaneh wrote: I dont' understand why everyone is jerking themselves over "bo3 is more competitive" when the players and teams through the association have stated that the advantages of bo1 outwiegh the advantages of bo3. It feels like reddit circlejerking with no basis. and the people who are actually qualified to make this assesment (players and teams) have indicated the opposite. like what do you gain from bo3? this fabled "experience"? IMO players have said you get more from scrim blocks and adjustments that way - they play bo5 or more during blocks. The biggest thing is stage experience, but honestly its not that big a thing and waaaay less impactful than losing an entire day to a fiesta bo3 taking 3-4 hours. Like a league system will get you the top teams every time. will a team maybe edge into the playoffs when they might be weaker? maybe but we're talking about the 6-7 place teams and the playoffs will ultimately determine who's the best that season and going to msi/worlds anyways. Its probably the sitting around and uncertain start times that they don't like most of all. That is one of the things I hated most about wrestling meets, you would be in a loud stadium/gym for hours waiting for your match to be called. I think you could fix that with set start times + multiple stream + studio shows for filler just like they do for worlds (and every other esports tournament does), but that is kind of against the LCS model which is about slashing costs and creating an illusion of equality between teams. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 01 2017 04:33 Kaneh wrote: I dont' understand why everyone is jerking themselves over "bo3 is more competitive" when the players and teams through the association have stated that the advantages of bo1 outwiegh the advantages of bo3. It feels like reddit circlejerking with no basis. and the people who are actually qualified to make this assesment (players and teams) have indicated the opposite. like what do you gain from bo3? this fabled "experience"? IMO players have said you get more from scrim blocks and adjustments that way - they play bo5 or more during blocks. The biggest thing is stage experience, but honestly its not that big a thing and waaaay less impactful than losing an entire day to a fiesta bo3 taking 3-4 hours. Like a league system will get you the top teams every time. will a team maybe edge into the playoffs when they might be weaker? maybe but we're talking about the 6-7 place teams and the playoffs will ultimately determine who's the best that season and going to msi/worlds anyways. The best part are the people talking about how western teams got so much better thanks to Bo3 meanwhile the best western performances ever internationally (CLG 2nd at MSI, EU 2x semifinalists) all came from Bo1 LCS | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
League pro teams lack a lot in the terms of BMT and in series adjustments. They have for years and now after barely having a year of functional series they all crawling back to that bo1? Kind of hilarious. Now they claiming they get so much out of scrims even though in the past they claimed how the games in scrims are so different from the games on stage. Maybe they just claim whatever they want to justify their current position with the truth being somewhere in-between? edit: The whole "working with players union to make scrims better". Such incredible marketing speak. The issue with scrims has never been tools outside of replays. It's always been player culture and efficient use of time instead of mindless grinding. How you going to change that overnight with a few words is pretty remarkable. If Bo1 is the saviour for broadcasting then so be it but let's not try pretend playing barely a TIs worth of games a whole year is really going to make people better. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On October 01 2017 03:52 cLutZ wrote: One other thing to consider is how riot can increase its sample size for balance purposes outside of LCS. If they go back to BO1, the data becomes almost entirely anecdotal, so they will need another tool. If Riot balances for competitive play, they should only balance for Korea anyway. I'm not sure how much of a focus it is for them really, but I don't think the lack of LCS games will be an issue. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 01 2017 05:26 Numy wrote: I thought we already agreed that worlds placements are a terrible judge of skill outside of who wins since it's mostly bracket luck. Are we just pretending it's good now again? League pro teams lack a lot in the terms of BMT and in series adjustments. They have for years and now after barely having a year of functional series they all crawling back to that bo1? Kind of hilarious. Now they claiming they get so much out of scrims even though in the past they claimed how the games in scrims are so different from the games on stage. Maybe they just claim whatever they want to justify their current position with the truth being somewhere in-between? edit: The whole "working with players union to make scrims better". Such incredible marketing speak. The issue with scrims has never been tools outside of replays. It's always been player culture and efficient use of time instead of mindless grinding. How you going to change that overnight with a few words is pretty remarkable. If Bo1 is the saviour for broadcasting then so be it but let's not try pretend playing barely a TIs worth of games a whole year is really going to make people better. You're right, it is. But there isn't any other evidence suggesting that Bo3 actually improved NA/EU in any meaningful way. At the end of the day the players said they preferred Bo1, and that any improvements over the past few years was not attributable to Bo3. That's really the end of the discussion, except for people who like seeing Bo3 and will put words in players' mouths and try to speak for them to disingenuously prove their own point. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
On October 01 2017 04:42 Sent. wrote: Why would the viewers care about what happens during the scrims? Because you never actually read my post. It seems you just want to cherry pick a sentence to suit some argument you have in your head. Try reading my post again and find where I'm talking about viewers. I do believe the entire post was about if bo3 was competitive . At the end of the day the players said they preferred Bo1, and that any improvements over the past few years was not attributable to Bo3. That's really the end of the discussion, except for people who like seeing Bo3 and will put words in players' mouths and try to speak for them to disingenuously prove their own point. And xpecial just posted a video favoring bo1 over bo3 so even more evidence that the players think its better. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
I don't care about that aspect as a viewer and don't understand why this is even discussed in relation to the league's format. The league exists mainly as a source of entertainment for the viewers, so if they prefer bo3s over bo1s, bo3s should stay. Bolded the "if" because Riot can be right and the viewers can actually prefer the bo1s. In that case there would be nothing wrong with switching back to bo1s. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On October 01 2017 05:49 DarkCore wrote: Nah, Koreans haven't been ahead of the meta for ages, it's everything else they're better at, like macro and team fighting. Other regions find and exploit the OP picks as well, maybe not as well but they are capable of executing it. I've heard people say similar things about European Zergs too. | ||
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Torchise
Canada245 Posts
Speculation: might be that the lower ranked teams voted in favor of Bo1s and that was enough to outnumber those who wanted to keep Bo3s in the Player's Association. Either way, as a viewer, I'm sort of ok with Bo1s since the double concurrent streams was a pain to watch live if you wanted to see 1 match on a stream and 1 match on the other. And they would always spoil the results of matches or send you to the other stream if games finished too quickly. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 01 2017 10:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: To me the problem always seemed like a 'multiple streams' issue and not a 'best of 3' issue. Like I would tune out of games as a viewer because I wanted to watch the other streams match way more often than any other reason I'd stop watching. I think that, especially now that we've moved to a franchise league, now is the time to mirror LCK and do games 4-5 days a week. Teams would know the schedule ahead of time so they can plan for scrims during days they aren't playing, and we wouldn't have any of this multiple stream nonsense. Probably not the best time to risk a schedule change like that right after entering a structure change. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
On October 01 2017 08:41 Ansibled wrote: I've heard people say similar things about European Zergs too. Will a TL mod show up at your door if you whisper 'patchzerg' three times? | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On October 01 2017 12:42 Gahlo wrote: Probably not the best time to risk a schedule change like that right after entering a structure change. While you're right about the timing, I'd be all for the change to a 4-5 day schedule. It would mirror many of the sports leagues that exist save for NFL. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On October 01 2017 13:28 lilwisper wrote: While you're right about the timing, I'd be all for the change to a 4-5 day schedule. It would mirror many of the sports leagues that exist save for NFL. That's exactly why I think they should switch now. I think that a best of 3, 4-5 day schedule with a franchised league is shown to work in most sports and there's no reason to assume it wouldn't work here. Although I definitely see your point that changing too much might mask whatever problems come up and make it hard to make the league better overall | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
http://www.h2k.gg/story/h2ks-position-on-the-debate-of-franchising-in-the-lcs/ die already h2k | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
On October 02 2017 05:22 Numy wrote: I do love how they threating to leave LCS while not being involved in anything else and not exactly having a massive fanbase. Worst leveraging ever. Did they learn how to negotiate from Trump University?! Well, they claim they're going bankrupt so it's a strong possibility. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
On October 02 2017 06:17 Gahlo wrote: Come on H2K, bring Prolly home. If he gets dropped, I have a hard time imagining a team that doesn't want him as a coach. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
Amazing is doing an AMA on Reddit which is pretty entertaining. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/fd452ac6ab501298d7675f27ec24839f.png) | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
Except he can make it as a coach somehow, though I doubt it. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On October 02 2017 17:53 Redox wrote: It is depressing because it is the farewell notes of a player that realizes he has declined and his career is over. Competition in esports is super tough and once you are not close to the top anymore there is not much left. Except he can make it as a coach somehow, though I doubt it. Agreed. Sucks for Amazing that he feels betrayed, but losing your job is hard no matter where you are, and you're probably going out the door with a sour taste in your mouth regardless. Doesn't help that, unlike most jobs, the skills he's been training all this time are mostly inapplicable in other fields. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
Amazing isn't very good compared to other LCS talent, that alone is reason for him to get replaced. The other stuff probably has some truth in it, but we don't know how much it actually took part in leading to his release. | ||
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Torchise
Canada245 Posts
More teams, no more fun modes to promote competitiveness, a 5v5 tournament bracket that mirrors the World championship, 1v1s with only 2 members from each region... Not sure why Riot wants "competition" between regions when it will be done in the off-season with hastily assembled teams, a likely broken pre-season patch and seemingly no monetary incentive to perform well. That was not what viewers meant when they said they wanted more international tournaments... | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 04 2017 00:31 Torchise wrote: Format change for All-Stars 2017: http://www.lolesports.com/en_US/articles/dream-teams-assemble-2017-all-star-event-update More teams, no more fun modes to promote competitiveness, a 5v5 tournament bracket that mirrors the World championship, 1v1s with only 2 members from each region... Not sure why Riot wants "competition" between regions when it will be done in the off-season with hastily assembled teams, a likely broken pre-season patch and seemingly no monetary incentive to perform well. That was not what viewers meant when they said they wanted more international tournaments... Yeah, it's a pretty useless event unless they move it to the IEM Kato slot which is now open. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Riot is pulling back on the 24 team EU plan, turning towards a double round robin best of 1 format like NA will have. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On October 07 2017 11:36 Gahlo wrote: ESPN Riot is pulling back on the 24 team EU plan, turning towards a double round robin best of 1 format like NA will have. I think equally as important is that G2 is one of the many teams that advanced beyond the initial round of teams for NA Franchising. But really thank god they aren't doing the 24 team plan. It sounded terrible, EU can barely field an LCS full of competitive teams, and then they wanted to double it? No thanks | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
First of all, if neither G2 or Fnatic had made it through, the process would have been revealed as kinda a sham. They are easily top 5 Western teams. Second, the 24 team plan never made sense. People would only have watched "champions league" and maybe london league. Third, EU still is probably screwed unless more changes come. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On October 07 2017 22:39 JimmiC wrote: Well considering all the teams came out and said they hated it. They are all probably happier with the extra 40% from rito then the format they hated. The teams whine because they suck at being businesses, they're still going to suck after Riot gives them slightly more money. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
My bets are on P1 and Flyquest also not making in. Possibly NV as well. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
IMT, TSM, C9, TL, and CLG are guaranteed spots. GSW and Optic are probably in too. That leaves 3 spots. I am very doubtful that P1, EF, or FLY would make it, but EF might because of the Fox connection and how good they are to their players. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 15 2017 14:11 GrandInquisitor wrote: Did everyone forget how shitty an organization DIG was? Literally their only qualification was that they were there early on. Since then they've changed players and owners, keeping no tie to their roots, while having accomplished nothing, getting relegated and buying their way back in, had no fans, and are basically only known for baron throws. IMT, TSM, C9, TL, and CLG are guaranteed spots. GSW and Optic are probably in too. That leaves 3 spots. I am very doubtful that P1, EF, or FLY would make it, but EF might because of the Fox connection and how good they are to their players. You know that current DIG wasn't old DIG, right? Literally an entirely different org that kept the name because of branding. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On October 15 2017 13:27 Gahlo wrote: If shit orgs like FQ and EF make it in over DIG, I'm not watching NA anymore. It is not like we have much background info about who manages what how and we have even less about plans they submitted. So idk how we should be able to judge either way. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Dig is the old Coast basically. They bought both Coasts slot and Digs brand name but went with Dig since it was more established. I don't know how good this new Dig organisation is but it is surprising they'd be declined after a pretty good year. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
EDIT: Optimus leaves the Marines, which is a huge blow to the squad. Had really hoped they'd stay together and take on 2018. Best of luck to Optimus wherever he goes | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/21045074/sources-phoenix1-team-envy-league-championship-series-franchise-applications-denied | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
I'll be flabbergasted as well if FQ makes the cut. | ||
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Skitter
United States899 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 17 2017 08:20 JimmiC wrote: So do teams buy those slots and everyone is a FA that was on the old orgs or do the winnings bid buy a team and get all their player s and contracts? Teams that weren't part of the LCS before pay 13m to get in instead of 10m. The extra 3m is pooled together and divied out to the teams that were in the LCS and didn't make the cut. Teams with contract beyond this year have a period of time that they have to sell those contracts to be able to collect form the pool. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
For example if only 2 teams were leaving 1 was new summer split and one had been around for 3 splits. They would split the pool 25/75 So far all 3 known relegated teams are 3 split teams | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
In the ecosystem, 10 mil Not in the ecosystem, 13mil | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/21054508/team-solomid-cloud9-team-liquid-counter-logic-gaming-rejoin-na-lcs | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
On October 18 2017 11:44 Sent. wrote: Feels a bit weird that TL is in but DIG is not. unfortunately for DIG one brings in a lot of money and fans while the other doesn't :/ and that's basically what's most important to get selected | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On October 18 2017 16:44 dsyxelic wrote: unfortunately for DIG one brings in a lot of money and fans while the other doesn't :/ and that's basically what's most important to get selected There are dozens of us! Dozens! | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 18 2017 11:44 Sent. wrote: Feels a bit weird that TL is in but DIG is not. I dont see why. TL is a storied team with results across games and a long history. They have finanicial backing, success and history in league. The old dignitas could have claimed the same things but since this new one is merely the Dignitas name on the Coast team it really can't claim that at all. I think a lot of people don't realize that this team isn't the same as the old Dignitas. TL has shit the bed when it comes to performance but Coast has never performed. They had one season with Apex doing alright and now an alright Dignitas team. If you judging based on that I don't see how they are in a better position than TL. ps: I must admit I'm kind of happy teams that just cashed in last minute with all this VC money are being booted for other new teams with VC money. Got some karma going lol. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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ruypture
United States367 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 19 2017 00:30 ruypture wrote: How the actual fuck did IMT not make it into franchising? They've always been middle to top tier and obviously have funding to back their players????? The article says that their massive investment in OWL was a tipping point. They most likely scaling back League operations pretty hard to fund it. That or Riot is petty and booting them for spending so much in OWL and not LCS. | ||
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ruypture
United States367 Posts
On October 19 2017 00:32 Numy wrote: The article says that their massive investment in OWL was a tipping point. They most likely scaling back League operations pretty hard to fund it. That or Riot is petty and booting them for spending so much in OWL and not LCS. I wonder why they would invest so much into OWL? LCS is definitely bigger than OWL and I don't see OWL growing that much from a viewer's perspective. Overwatch is really messy spectator wise imo. I think the esports scene is really saturated and making more leagues is a struggle. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 19 2017 00:32 Numy wrote: The article says that their massive investment in OWL was a tipping point. They most likely scaling back League operations pretty hard to fund it. That or Riot is petty and booting them for spending so much in OWL and not LCS. C9 and Optic are also in OWL, and aren't the other LCS teams all involved in other esports anyway? Other people are talking about it having to do with Los Angeles which is even more confusing. I guess we'll have to see the full announcement. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
I believe the issue was that Immortals was the LA Overwatch team specifically. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
We don't know how much C9 or Optic are investing in OWL compared to IMT. We don't know their plans for LCS either. I could see it as IMT going heavy into OWL especially in LA while the other two aren't doing as much. Then Riot sees this and compares it to what those two bring to LCS along with their plans for LCS and it becomes an excuse of "why should we bother with IMT" rather than "why we need IMT in". Franchising is all about making yourselves indispensable for Riot. Clearly IMT didn't if they aren't in(need official announcement first). It's very hard to feel any sympathy with any of these guys though. They helped force a rat race to happen. If they don't succeed that's all on them. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
That seems like a textbook kind of team you want, minus, you know, the actual winning, but surely you didn't think that franchise applications were going to be based off of W/L record. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Are you referring to the Adrian poaching stuff, or not announcing your roster on time? Or they pay less salary to players/staff, or invest less in infastructure? I'm not really informed on NA organizations at all, I'm genuinely interested why (the consensus here seems to be that) EF has/is a bad organization. GI is faster than me. bummer. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
That makes no sense. They are successful, have fan support, a strong brand from being competitive for so long and financial backing. But EF makes the cut? IMT record last four splits: 55-17 FOX record last four splits: 18-54 What pettiness from riot. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Again Franchising has nothing to do with performance what so ever. Why hate on EF for being in and not Optic a team that literally didn't exist in LCS beforehand thus has even worse performance in LCS. Or the new golden warriors team. Again performance did not matter there at all and branding didn't either as they have zero history in esports. It's all about other intangibles people bring and their plans for further development. edit: Franchising as a system is inherently anti-competitive. IMT was one of the teams at the front of pushing for it. Hard to blame Riot for disliking competition when IMT didn't want competition either. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Seems dumb to me; that 20 million OWL investment from IMT just turned into a 40 million dollar investment I imagine. You can have competition with franchising. But you have to foster it. Riot apparently doesn't care, and it's the fans that suffer. Excited for some 60 minute clown fiestas all LCS followed by 18 minute trouncing at world's. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
On October 19 2017 01:53 iCanada wrote: It seems like the problem wasnt IMTs plan for League their plan for OW. Seems dumb to me; that 20 million OWL investment from IMT just turned into a 40 million dollar investment I imagine. You can have competition with franchising. But you have to foster it. Riot apparently doesn't care, and it's the fans that suffer. Excited for some 60 minute clown fiestas all LCS followed by 18 minute trouncing at world's. More like 18 minute stomps by TSM/CLG/C9 followed by the usual stuff at Worlds. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
sSumday, Flame, and Impact coming to NA vastly improved the talent level of NA top lanes (looking at Hauntzer, in particular). Losing top tier teams will hurt every other team in the league. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 19 2017 01:38 iCanada wrote: Wait... Why would Immortals be declined wtf? That makes no sense. They are successful, have fan support, a strong brand from being competitive for so long and financial backing. But EF makes the cut? IMT record last four splits: 55-17 FOX record last four splits: 18-54 What pettiness from riot. Earlier I tried to be nice and pretend that no one could possibly be so ridiculous as to think that a team's record is relevant in whether or not they get a franchise spot. But your post makes this very awkward. On October 19 2017 01:53 iCanada wrote: It seems like the problem wasnt IMTs plan for League their plan for OW. Seems dumb to me; that 20 million OWL investment from IMT just turned into a 40 million dollar investment I imagine. You can have competition with franchising. But you have to foster it. Riot apparently doesn't care, and it's the fans that suffer. Excited for some 60 minute clown fiestas all LCS followed by 18 minute trouncing at world's. I genuinely struggle to see your point here - you think that NA skill level will drop because there is no longer a team named IMT in it? Because, what, the IMT players just all say, "Ahh shucks let's pack it up and start downloading Overwatch"? On October 19 2017 02:07 iCanada wrote: I mean... will TSM and C9 even be as good with them weakening their opposition pool? sSumday, Flame, and Impact coming to NA vastly improved the talent level of NA top lanes (looking at Hauntzer, in particular). Losing top tier teams will hurt every other team in the league. Maybe you actually really think that all of IMT's players are now banned from ever playing NA LCS again. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On October 19 2017 02:10 GrandInquisitor wrote: Earlier I tried to be nice and pretend that no one could possibly be so ridiculous as to think that a team's record is relevant in whether or not they get a franchise spot. But your post makes this very awkward. I genuinely struggle to see your point here - you think that NA skill level will drop because there is no longer a team named IMT in it? Because, what, the IMT players just all say, "Ahh shucks let's pack it up and start downloading Overwatch"? Maybe you actually really think that all of IMT's players are now banned from ever playing NA LCS again. I never said the record was wht the decision was made. It should factor in though. I want to want IMT vs DIG not TL vs EF. Good players don't make a good team. Case in point, look at what website you're on... how much money has TL funneled into star players to circle the relegation drain? IMT, C9, and TSM have been successful through rebuilds multiple times. Its about environment, management and support staff. Losing that is a huge loss for the league's quality of product and the fan. And as a fan i am frankly quite disappointed with the decision. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 19 2017 02:23 Sent. wrote: I think NA skill level will drop because TL and EFX managements kept doing weird stuff and there is nothing indicating they'll stop after the franchising. Now that the threat of relegation is gone, they can continue to field big name shitters to keep their fans entertained. So perfectly in line with what NA has always done lol. Why wasn't NA a powerhouse the last two years with all these good teams coming in? Why has their skill level stayed practically the same? There are systemic reasons for NA being bad and having one or two different teams is not going to change that. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
But I guess NALCS is the Froggen vs Piglet show now. Yippee. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 19 2017 02:18 iCanada wrote: I never said the record was wht the decision was made. It should factor in though. I want to want IMT vs DIG not TL vs EF. Good players don't make a good team. Case in point, look at what website you're on... how much money has TL funneled into star players to circle the relegation drain? IMT, C9, and TSM have been successful through rebuilds multiple times. Its about environment, management and support staff. Losing that is a huge loss for the league's quality of product and the fan. And as a fan i am frankly quite disappointed with the decision. Yeah, your argument actually helps me, not you. Teams are not nearly as consistent as you imagine. IMT finished 7th earlier this year. C9 alternates between barely making gauntlet and placing second in the split. CLG almost got relegated, won the split, and then barely made gauntlet. TL went from top 3 to bottom 3 within a year. P1 went from 3rd to relegation. Literally only one team in the history of NA LCS has ever stayed at mostly the same position, and it's TSM. You even said it yourself. Ssumday/Flame/Impact coming to NA vastly improved the talent level. What, did they improve top lane talent because of their impact on "environment, management and support staff"? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On October 18 2017 23:18 Numy wrote: I dont see why. TL is a storied team with results across games and a long history. They have finanicial backing, success and history in league. But they're not. If Steve did the garbage he did the past year or two (not to mention before that) and he didn't have backing from an outside organization, the team would 100% be gone. It's a complete joke they're not willing to give Dig a shot with the new management, but TL gets a pass. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
On October 19 2017 02:25 Numy wrote: So perfectly in line with what NA has always done lol. Why wasn't NA a powerhouse the last two years with all these good teams coming in? Why has their skill level stayed practically the same? There are systemic reasons for NA being bad and having one or two different teams is not going to change that. Two years ago TSM's roster included Dyrus, Santorin, WildTurtle and Lustboy. Do you think that team had practically the same skill level as the current roster? Teams like CLG, C9 or IMT showed they're willing to get rid of big names in order to improve. Can you say the same about TL? | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 19 2017 03:00 zer0das wrote: But they're not. If Steve did the garbage he did the past year or two (not to mention before that) and he didn't have backing from an outside organization, the team would 100% be gone. It's a complete joke they're not willing to give Dig a shot with the new management, but TL gets a pass. DIG literally never succeeded in LCS. The TL 4th place joke was a meme because they were legit top 4 for years. It'd be like kicking out KT from LCK. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 19 2017 03:01 Sent. wrote: Two years ago TSM's roster included Dyrus, Santorin, WildTurtle and Lustboy. Do you think that team had practically the same skill level as the current roster? Teams like CLG, C9 or IMT showed they're willing to get rid of big names in order to improve. Can you say the same about TL? Relatively? I'm not sure I agree with that. That roster was pretty good. This roster is practically the same compared to everyone else. So while it may be stronger now it's not really improved any faster or better than rest of the competition. IMT started LCS by buying up the biggest western duo there was in RO/Huni along with known NA talent. Don't really see how that's not in line with picking up big names. I think NA was better whan we had LMQ and TL fighting it up with CLG,C9 and TSM. There are more big international names now with more money but is the relative competition any better? Not sure about that, maybe it is maybe it isn't. Tough to tell. As for Steve from TL being shady and doing shit the last 2 years. How can you even say that in comparison to Coast/Apex guys? They the ones managing Dignitas now with 76ers backing. If anything it makes perfect sense to axe them. If Dignitas completely changed management or was willing to completely revamp with a set plan then it's a bit strange. Depends who is coming instead I guess. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 19 2017 01:21 GrandInquisitor wrote: I am genuinely confused as to why you hate EF so much. As far as I know, it's a totally fine team. It doesn't do very well, but has a lot of fans, works a lot with them, puts out great content, and the owner is super invested in his players and spent a lot on them compared to other teams (e.g., gaming house, coaching, etc.). That seems like a textbook kind of team you want, minus, you know, the actual winning, but surely you didn't think that franchise applications were going to be based off of W/L record. Echo Fox is 3 things: Froggen nostalgia, stream meme drsem team(which doesn't exist anymore), and Rick Fox cult of personality. What does the team do to work with fans? What content do they put out? How is Rick Fox's investment in the players special? Every time I ask these things, people never respond. Lastly, they've been fucking trash. The big criticism I've seen against franchising is that teams won't try to win - and yet that's what EF has been doing basically since they entered the league. I think they're going to continue the MO of being a shit team that doesn't try. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On October 19 2017 03:05 Ansibled wrote: What happened to that Riot streaming partnership they announced anyway? Wasn't there supposed to be something by now? Only other person asking important questions... | ||
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Skitter
United States899 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 19 2017 03:22 cLutZ wrote: Only other person asking important questions... It's called google. https://dotesports.com/business/riot-late-implement-bamtech-16590 | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
On October 19 2017 03:12 Numy wrote: Relatively? I'm not sure I agree with that. That roster was pretty good. This roster is practically the same compared to everyone else. So while it may be stronger now it's not really improved any faster or better than rest of the competition. IMT started LCS by buying up the biggest western duo there was in RO/Huni along with known NA talent. Don't really see how that's not in line with picking up big names. I think NA was better whan we had LMQ and TL fighting it up with CLG,C9 and TSM. There are more big international names now with more money but is the relative competition any better? Not sure about that, maybe it is maybe it isn't. Tough to tell. As for Steve from TL being shady and doing shit the last 2 years. How can you even say that in comparison to Coast/Apex guys? They the ones managing Dignitas now with 76ers backing. If anything it makes perfect sense to axe them. If Dignitas completely changed management or was willing to completely revamp with a set plan then it's a bit strange. Depends who is coming instead I guess. Was trying to say the good teams are willing to kick the big names if the names don't pull their weigh, not that buying big names is something bad or that you have to build a team from scratch. I guess I can agree with kicking Dignitas, it was surprising but justifiable. I can also understand keeping TL despite its self-destructive tendencies. But kicking IMT while keeping EFX is just mind-boggling. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On October 19 2017 03:26 Gahlo wrote: It's called google. https://dotesports.com/business/riot-late-implement-bamtech-16590 In other words, this is all probably just shuffling deckchairs atm. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
All the other moves have been rather self-explanatory. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On October 19 2017 04:33 GrandInquisitor wrote: Watching IMT fans get triggered on Reddit is honestly delightful. Totally worth it for that alone. This is why I'm hoping G2 makes it in. | ||
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Skitter
United States899 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On October 19 2017 01:21 GrandInquisitor wrote: I am genuinely confused as to why you hate EF so much. As far as I know, it's a totally fine team. It doesn't do very well, but has a lot of fans, works a lot with them, puts out great content, and the owner is super invested in his players and spent a lot on them compared to other teams (e.g., gaming house, coaching, etc.). That seems like a textbook kind of team you want, minus, you know, the actual winning, but surely you didn't think that franchise applications were going to be based off of W/L record. probably because they have consistently been bad since they joined NA LCS | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
G2 would never make it in, it would be suicide for EULCS and for G2 itself. 1) They'd be able to take at most two of their roster (Zven and Mithy lets be real) 2) They'd never be able to get an NA Mid as good as Perkz, let alone a good enough Top/JG/Mid trio to replace Expect/Trick/Perkz 3)If Zven and Mithy are open to joining NA we'd have to introduce salary caps, as 99% of the teams in the region are better off booting their bot lanes and writing blank checks to get them to their teams. TSM would kick Sven (their only import player) yesterday for a chance at importing Zven and Mithy and G2 can't be worth more than the NA VC machine 4) EU LCS no longer has its most dominant team Unrelated but I love how the IMT/EF article ends with "The status of Flyquest is currently unknown." So the league is TSM, TL, C9, CLG, EF, Optic, GSW + 3 | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On October 19 2017 06:35 Slusher wrote: Well the players have already said this was their last tournament with this roster so your first point is in favor of them in NA Wait what where? Also if anything I'd assume Trick or Expect are retiring before I'd assume they team shifted to NA. In fact because no team knew about their spot in the league until this week I in fact HIGHLY doubt that anything the players say is in favor of them being in NA | ||
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Skitter
United States899 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 19 2017 06:35 Slusher wrote: Well the players have already said this was their last tournament with this roster so your first point is in favor of them in NA They said it could be. That could mean anything from going to NA, 1 person changing and being in EU still, to G2 pulling out of League. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0712680449326977654-4 https://www.thescoreesports.com/lol/news/15280-sources-fly-quest-accepted-into-the-2018-na-lcs All of the news EFX partners with Yankees Cavs have an LCS team FQ made it. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0712711935354738376-4 | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
But after taking a step back to reassess why IMT got cut over EF, listening to Travis' vlog, and reading Lunar's musings, I think the overwhelming factor determining if an orga gets franchised is their finances. It should be no surprise that money is a driving force here, all the teams franchised for next year need to be pulling their own weight, more or less. If you can't generate revenue, it just creates added pressure on Riot and the other team owners. So from that perspective, it makes more sense. So in light of FQ making it in, one has to wonder: just how poorly run was IMT's books? Tin foil hat on, I probably do think IMT's decision to back OverWatch in LA was also a huge detriment in Riot's decision to reject them. IMT prob got cut for more than one reason. | ||
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Skitter
United States899 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 20 2017 03:30 NeoIllusions wrote: Initially I felt rather peeved that IMT got cut over EF because I looked at it through the lense of orga success. How could a team that placed top 3 in NA and just made it to Worlds get cut but a team that's consistently bottom 3 got in? But after taking a step back to reassess why IMT got cut over EF, listening to Travis' vlog, and reading Lunar's musings, I think the overwhelming factor determining if an orga gets franchised is their finances. It should be no surprise that money is a driving force here, all the teams franchised for next year need to be pulling their own weight, more or less. If you can't generate revenue, it just creates added pressure on Riot and the other team owners. So from that perspective, it makes more sense. So in light of FQ making it in, one has to wonder: just how poorly run was IMT's books? Tin foil hat on, I probably do think IMT's decision to back OverWatch in LA was also a huge detriment in Riot's decision to reject them. IMT prob got cut for more than one reason. At the same time, I'm concerned that Riot is putting more emphasis on financials than actual developement of the teams with this. Part of the reason people are against franchising in the first place is they don't want bad orgs getting in and then bottom feeding for the 2.5-4 years before getting the boot. Echo Fox has a history of doing just that either being in relegations of skimming just above it while never getting into playoffs. I'm concerned about EF being back along with groups getting in that have 0 experience actually running a esports or League team. IMT being LA for OWL being a negative to Riot's evaluation should be beyond even thought. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
It's baffling but in the context of big corporate it makes some kind of twisted sense. It's also why they see other esports as competitors. Instead of seeing it as other sports which could muster up interest in the whole field they see it as people stealing away their audience. Crazy stuff, short sighted but again if the goal is just to get as much money right now as possible it makes sense. Long term growth is irrelevant for majority of companies/people. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 20 2017 04:05 Gahlo wrote: At the same time, I'm concerned that Riot is putting more emphasis on financials than actual developement of the teams with this. Part of the reason people are against franchising in the first place is they don't want bad orgs getting in and then bottom feeding for the 2.5-4 years before getting the boot. Echo Fox has a history of doing just that either being in relegations of skimming just above it while never getting into playoffs. I'm concerned about EF being back along with groups getting in that have 0 experience actually running a esports or League team. IMT being LA for OWL being a negative to Riot's evaluation should be beyond even thought. And yet one of these 10 teams will inevitably finish last this year. That doesn't mean franchising them was a mistake. The whole point of a franchise was that you can have bad years and stay in LCS: that if you're a good team that provides well for their players with financial stability, you deserve to stay in, even if you happened to pick the wrong players this year. You seem to think that there will be teams that just say fuck it, join the league, and sit around with their dicks in their hands for 2.5-4 years. It's hard to imagine why that would be the case, though, assuming they aren't allergic to money and success. Everybody's gonna try, but only one will win. That's fine. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 20 2017 04:12 Numy wrote: I spoke to Neo about companies especially game companies seem to value control over profits. They'd rather lose money if it meant no one else had any control or gain in it. OWL in LA should be a boon for Riot if it works since it'll get more people locally interested in gaming which could have a cascade effect. However if you look at it from a control perspective they are losing some of that by not being the alpha dogs. Blizzard has shown the exact same mentality in the past and still do. They want all the money and all the control. Someone else making money off their product which is helping their product so tangentially helps them? Nope shut that shit down. It's baffling but in the context of big corporate it makes some kind of twisted sense. It's also why they see other esports as competitors. Instead of seeing it as other sports which could muster up interest in the whole field they see it as people stealing away their audience. Crazy stuff, short sighted but again if the goal is just to get as much money right now as possible it makes sense. Long term growth is irrelevant for majority of companies/people. I strongly disagree with this. Long term growth is exactly why you can't have conflicted teams. Go back in time to 2004. If you're starting Facebook, you cannot have one of your 10 key employees have massive stock options in MySpace and care way more about MySpace than Facebook. Is this about you "wanting all the money and all the control"? Or is this you saying, at the most important stage for my startup venture, I cannot have 10% of my workforce care more about a rival than about me? esports engagement is limited. Look at how dramatically PUBG has cost all the other games Twitch viewership. There are a limited number of gamers with limited amounts of time and money. No one is gonna watch IMT OWL and be like "OK now let's watch IMT LCS". How many games do you think the average Bjergsen fan has watched of Leffen? FlashX? GaleAdelaide? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 20 2017 04:29 GrandInquisitor wrote: I strongly disagree with this. Long term growth is exactly why you can't have conflicted teams. Go back in time to 2004. If you're starting Facebook, you cannot have one of your 10 key employees have massive stock options in MySpace and care way more about MySpace than Facebook. Is this about you "wanting all the money and all the control"? Or is this you saying, at the most important stage for my startup venture, I cannot have 10% of my workforce care more about a rival than about me? esports engagement is limited. Look at how dramatically PUBG has cost all the other games Twitch viewership. There are a limited number of gamers with limited amounts of time and money. No one is gonna watch IMT OWL and be like "OK now let's watch IMT LCS". How many games do you think the average Bjergsen fan has watched of Leffen? FlashX? GaleAdelaide? I think you misunderstood what I mean by one helping the other. Let me try use an analogy which I loathe but think it helps. Let's say I grow up in a place where no one plays or watches sport. It's unlikely that I'll grow up caring about sports because it's just not something that is a part of life. Now say instead the place I grow up in is super into only two sports, soccer and rugby. I try them out but neither really appeals to me. However I've started to enjoy the activity and competition while not exactly enjoying the sport. Knowing this information I may be more inclined to try find a sport I do enjoy say hockey and squash. It's just normal part of life to enjoy sports for me now as it's been a part of my culture/society growing up. That's how I view all these different esports. While in the short term they may be competing with the limited viewership, in the long term as they gain more traction and become more a normal in society they will attract more people to it. Some of those people may not enjoy the exact game their friends/family are into but enjoy the concept enough to find one they do enjoy. Likewise having local OWL or LCS events in the city may become a part of life for that city which could just interest more people in the area. It's not about "hey IMT has OWL team and LCS so let me go watch other", it's more about bringing more people into the whole concept of esports. Personally I never was a fan of Dota. I grew up on Half-life 1 and Quake. Those were the big titles we played at lans. Gaming and sporting was just a part of life. As for startup analogy. Blizzard isn't a startup and have a history of valuing control over anything else. Riot isn't one either and opted for control first. Companies just prefer having absolute control over their products in how they used. I also don't agree there's a finite viewerbase for esports and one getting popular makes another unpopular. That may be in the short term but in the long term they'll all find a place. We have a million different sports titles, why can't we have a million different game titles eventually? edit: I realise by nature there's a finite viewership at any given time. That was a silly statement lol. I meant more that the viewerbase is limited and stagnant to the point where multiple titles can't survive in the ecosystem. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 20 2017 04:30 cLutZ wrote: I mean, lets be clear why there is VC fronting the $10 million to be in the LCS at all: These people are under the impression that they will be able to suckle at the tits of Riot, TSM, & C9 while occasionally fielding a good team and still be able to more than recoup that money. That doesn't change the fact that performing well = more money. More money is always better than less money, particularly when it doesn't cost much more to have a good team than a bad team. On October 20 2017 04:41 Numy wrote: I think you misunderstood what I mean by one helping the other. Let me try use an analogy which I loathe but think it helps. Let's say I grow up in a place where no one plays or watches sport. It's unlikely that I'll grow up caring about sports because it's just not something that is a part of life. Now say instead the place I grow up in is super into only two sports, soccer and rugby. I try them out but neither really appeals to me. However I've started to enjoy the activity and competition while not exactly enjoying the sport. Knowing this information I may be more inclined to try find a sport I do enjoy say hockey and squash. It's just normal part of life to enjoy sports for me now as it's been a part of my culture/society growing up. That's how I view all these different esports. While in the short term they may be competing with the limited viewership, in the long term as they gain more traction and become more a normal in society they will attract more people to it. Some of those people may not enjoy the exact game their friends/family are into but enjoy the concept enough to find one they do enjoy. Likewise having local OWL or LCS events in the city may become a part of life for that city which could just interest more people in the area. It's not about "hey IMT has OWL team and LCS so let me go watch other", it's more about bringing more people into the whole concept of esports. Personally I never was a fan of Dota. I grew up on Half-life 1 and Quake. Those were the big titles we played at lans. Gaming and sporting was just a part of life. As for startup analogy. Blizzard isn't a startup and have a history of valuing control over anything else. Riot isn't one either and opted for control first. Companies just prefer having absolute control over their products in how they used. I also don't agree there's a finite viewerbase for esports and one getting popular makes another unpopular. That may be in the short term but in the long term they'll all find a place. We have a million different sports titles, why can't we have a million different game titles eventually? edit: I realise by nature there's a finite viewership at any given time. That was a silly statement lol. I meant more that the viewerbase is limited and stagnant to the point where multiple titles can't survive in the ecosystem. I guess you and I disagree on that front. I think esports is already fairly saturated, and now we're entering the winnowing phase. You and I grew up in a different era, where we'd stay up to 3AM to watch 240p untranslated OGN games and when ESPORTS was something Hot_Bid talked about ironically. It's now big business, and a bunch are going to start dying off. Do we really have a million different sports? We have fewer than 10 big sports around the world. There used to be a million different sports. Riot doesn't want to end up as one of the sports that people don't play any more. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On October 20 2017 05:02 GrandInquisitor wrote: That doesn't change the fact that performing well = more money. More money is always better than less money, particularly when it doesn't cost much more to have a good team than a bad team. That is the goal of franchising, that having a good team will not cost much more, however, I expect that not to be true at least short term. Its possible/probable that teams will ask for a salary cap soon because salaries will quickly eat up performance incentives. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 20 2017 04:24 GrandInquisitor wrote: And yet one of these 10 teams will inevitably finish last this year. That doesn't mean franchising them was a mistake. The whole point of a franchise was that you can have bad years and stay in LCS: that if you're a good team that provides well for their players with financial stability, you deserve to stay in, even if you happened to pick the wrong players this year. You seem to think that there will be teams that just say fuck it, join the league, and sit around with their dicks in their hands for 2.5-4 years. It's hard to imagine why that would be the case, though, assuming they aren't allergic to money and success. Everybody's gonna try, but only one will win. That's fine. Yes, I understand that. That's why I haven't been saying TL shouldn't get in. Steve has shown a track record of putting forth a competitive team that, at times, has been towards the head of the pack. EF on the other hand has a track record of doing nothing but skirting relegations/getting relegated their entire 2 year existence. Being 10th doesn't mean a team is poorly ran. Being 10th while having players like Keith as your starting bot laner, for example, a player that has proven time and again he a) doesn't deserve a starting spot and b) is only useful as a motivator to take spots from struggling ADs, yet never actually doing it, isn't. Coddling outright non-competitive players and treating them well isn't the sign of a well run team. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
I'm still pretty sure that no one will actually care about what teams made it in a couple months, the players they like will all find teams anyway. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 20 2017 05:02 GrandInquisitor wrote: That doesn't change the fact that performing well = more money. More money is always better than less money, particularly when it doesn't cost much more to have a good team than a bad team. I guess you and I disagree on that front. I think esports is already fairly saturated, and now we're entering the winnowing phase. You and I grew up in a different era, where we'd stay up to 3AM to watch 240p untranslated OGN games and when ESPORTS was something Hot_Bid talked about ironically. It's now big business, and a bunch are going to start dying off. Do we really have a million different sports? We have fewer than 10 big sports around the world. There used to be a million different sports. Riot doesn't want to end up as one of the sports that people don't play any more. Yea maybe we just have differing viewpoints. I know we grew up in a different period in esports. Back when you had to cart around your 15 inch CTR to lans to play hopping rides with buddies or trying to negotiate with parents before you had any buddies old enough to drive. There are a lot of sports. Off the top of my head you have Football, Cricket, Rugby Union, Rugby League, Aussie Rules rugby, American Football, Tennis, Ice Hockey, Hockey, Basketball, Baseball, Boxing, MMA, Wrestling, Squash, Golf, Motorbike Racing, Car racing, Cycling, Swimming, Track and Field, Other Athletics, Marathon/Triathlon stuff, etc. Even less physical stuff like Chess, GO etc. There are a loooooot of sports out there. They may differ wildly in size and geographic location but they are out there. Don't see reason gaming can't get there. Not every game has to be biggest in the world. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
It just seems bad even by normal investment standards. I kinda feel the same way about League, but at least there you have a big playerbase and viewerbase which you have a chance to monetize. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
In my opinion, it's super ambitious to a fault and is bound to fail. Blizzard is jumping the gun on this with an esport that isn't proven. This is something that, hypothetically, Riot should be attempting in 2 years after franchising and running leagues for 7 years, not Blizzard from the jump. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
And to keep this on-topic, this seems to be pretty much exactly what Riot has been trying to do, except they skip the first 6 years and go straight to current day (and beyond). | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
God I hate what this company has become. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
l0l, this is the kind of applicants Riot was getting for their franchises, so I guess IMT getting dropped isn't as surprising now? Still makes me wonder who's behind FQ again? Cause didn't DIG have the 76ers behind them? zz | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Skitter
United States899 Posts
On October 20 2017 10:44 NeoIllusions wrote: Houston Rockets accepted into the 2018 NA LCS l0l, this is the kind of applicants Riot was getting for their franchises, so I guess IMT getting dropped isn't as surprising now? Still makes me wonder who's behind FQ again? Cause didn't DIG have the 76ers behind them? zz apparently, it has wall street money, which would give it easily the biggest investor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_Investment_Group | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 20 2017 10:44 NeoIllusions wrote: Houston Rockets accepted into the 2018 NA LCS l0l, this is the kind of applicants Riot was getting for their franchises, so I guess IMT getting dropped isn't as surprising now? Still makes me wonder who's behind FQ again? Cause didn't DIG have the 76ers behind them? zz Yeah, it makes me curious as well. As a Philadelphian and Ssumday fan, it was a gut punch. On October 20 2017 10:52 chipmonklord17 wrote: I hope Riot never tries the OWL approach as it feels like there's too many logistical holes beyond the fact that its Overwatch and not some proven esport. Having a geolocation based esport sounds absurd when you consider that the nature of competitive video games is that they can be played anywhere with an internet connection What it does do is it solves the "Why should I care about any of these teams?" issue that esports has where fans hop from team to team due to success or their favorite player at a higher rate than traditional sports. It also gives more opportunities to be able to experience an esports event live. However, anything larger than the existing regions is stupid. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Cloud9: "individual" investors Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian, NFL hall of famer Joe Montana, Golden State Warrior owner Chamath Palihapitiya Counter Logic Gaming: Madison Square Garden Team Liquid: aXiomatic eSports (Magic Johnson, Peter Guber and Ted Leonsis) Echo Fox: New York Yankees OpTic: Chaney Sports Group New Team 1: Joe Lacob of the Golden State Warriors New Team 2: Cleveland Cavaliers FlyQuest: Wesley Edens of the Milwaukee Bucks and the Fortress Gaming Investment group So DIG couldn't compete with 76ers money and who knows if IMT had anyone backing them, but these are all serious levels of monies. OpTic's backers are least notable to me but even then, they have such a stronk eSports background for an orga not already in League. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
On October 20 2017 10:52 chipmonklord17 wrote: I hope Riot never tries the OWL approach as it feels like there's too many logistical holes beyond the fact that its Overwatch and not some proven esport. Having a geolocation based esport sounds absurd when you consider that the nature of competitive video games is that they can be played anywhere with an internet connection That's an approach very specific to games that were made in internet era and are designed with some ammount of input lag in mind. If you look at CS, that's a game that sprouted in an era where LAN Parties were extremely common, people played only on servers with very low ping (ie located in their own region) and what do you know, until recently teams were for the most part national. And a 100 times better example, fighting games which originated from arcades and maaaybe consoles (with no online play), and thus were very regional (Norcal vs Socal, East Coast vs West Coast, America vs Japan etc etc etc). Even nowadays when online play is standard, the genre is built on timing so strict that 16ms of lag changes everything. It's only games like League that force everyone to connect to the same server that made it seem like regions don't matter. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 20 2017 11:09 NeoIllusions wrote: Team SoloMid: looking for minority investors soon (tm) Cloud9: "individual" investors Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian, NFL hall of famer Joe Montana, Golden State Warrior owner Chamath Palihapitiya Counter Logic Gaming: Madison Square Garden Team Liquid: aXiomatic eSports (Magic Johnson, Peter Guber and Ted Leonsis) Echo Fox: New York Yankees OpTic: Chaney Sports Group New Team 1: Joe Lacob of the Golden State Warriors New Team 2: Cleveland Cavaliers FlyQuest: Wesley Edens of the Milwaukee Bucks and the Fortress Gaming Investment group So DIG couldn't compete with 76ers money and who knows if IMT had anyone backing them, but these are all serious levels of monies. OpTic's backers are least notable to me but even then, they have such a stronk eSports background for an orga not already in League. To be fair, they are owned by the owner of the Sixers, who also own the NJ Devils, and is the co-founder of the Apollo Management Group. The guy is worth $3b by himself. We're reaching the point where numbers don't really matter. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 20 2017 11:33 JimmiC wrote: They were scared of the 3 4 years where dig would tell their fans to "trust the process" But the League process got them back to semis in 1. =[ | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On October 20 2017 11:10 AlterKot wrote: That's an approach very specific to games that were made in internet era and are designed with some ammount of input lag in mind. If you look at CS, that's a game that sprouted in an era where LAN Parties were extremely common, people played only on servers with very low ping (ie located in their own region) and what do you know, until recently teams were for the most part national. And a 100 times better example, fighting games which originated from arcades and maaaybe consoles (with no online play), and thus were very regional (Norcal vs Socal, East Coast vs West Coast, America vs Japan etc etc etc). Even nowadays when online play is standard, the genre is built on timing so strict that 16ms of lag changes everything. It's only games like League that force everyone to connect to the same server that made it seem like regions don't matter. While I see where you're coming from I just disagree. Regions don't matter. At all. Maybe it helps those that aren't "in the know" in the esports world but it just doesn't matter. I guess IMT is a good example of what I mean. When you're not in the know, their OWL team being in LA might be appealing to someone who is in LA themselves, but anyone in the know knows IMT has a Brazilian CS:GO team, an NA LCS team, and a Korean DOTA team, once you found an org you like you're gonna support their team. I don't root for an NA CS:GO team, I root for a brand I like. Who I root for in Melee isn't influenced by who is east coast despite me being east coast myself. My favorite teams span regions, hell ,continents. I get that that's where esports was but there's no indication that its where it IS. Not to mention having a geolocation based league that spans continents has its own set of stupidity. What happens when the Shanghai Dragons can't get a visa to play in London? Why even risk that? The only thing its good for is being able to go see a game live like someone mentioned earlier. But I just don't see the OWL model working. I think what Riot's doing now is going to be far more successful than this iteration of the OWL ever could be | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
And yet people are insanely loyal to their college teams, even though there's theoretically little bond between a State U student and a State U football player, because they essentially go to different schools with different admissions processes, entrance requirements, living facilities, and classes. If I were Riot, I'd try to make things geographic, but I'd also invest a ton into collegiate League play. Huge marketing opportunity right there. Fund some small scholarships for some good schools, pay for some spruced up tournament finals, and use it to market to a whole bunch of potential players who aren't necessarily interested in League, but will be like "Hey our college team is doing well, let's check it out and see what it's all about." It's basically the perfect demographic for them anyway. | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On October 20 2017 13:37 lilwisper wrote: Isn't it a conflict of interest that 2 teams have backing from people involved with the Golden State Warriors? Only in terms of competitiveness within the league. And Riot doesn't give a rats about that. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On October 20 2017 12:31 cLutZ wrote: Gonna be honest, I don't think inter-esports teams carry over many fans. There are TSM-LOL fans, and they dont necessarily support TSM-CS-Hearthstone-Etc. The regional thing is kinda good because it actually means more revenue (theoretically) because of ticket sales. Unlike the NFL, adding another stadium of ticket sales would be a massive boost to revenue for the tiny pool that is LCS revenue. IDK why Riot doesn't do this already. Instead of only selling in LA all week, have have your games in LA, and half in NYC/Chicago/ATL/Dallas. For most sports, gate is how leagues made money for almost all of history, basically up until the late 80s. Some sports still have gate > broadcast. Because we don't know what the demographic is like that watches games live. How many people actually go to see the LCS in the studio? Is it worth splitting the venue, will they even fill the place up every week? Will the number of attendants recuperate the extra costs? Who is going to pay for transportation? What happens when there is a technical difficulty, do they have to hire twice as many technicians? My guess is that it's just not worth it to Riot to increase running costs. I'm pretty sure the attendance rate of sports fans is a lot higher than esports as well, we've all grown up watching this stuff being streamed, a lot of sports fans are people old enough to remember when TV quality was only decent, and watching a game was a real experience. If I were Riot, I'd try to make things geographic, but I'd also invest a ton into collegiate League play. Huge marketing opportunity right there. Fund some small scholarships for some good schools, pay for some spruced up tournament finals, and use it to market to a whole bunch of potential players who aren't necessarily interested in League, but will be like "Hey our college team is doing well, let's check it out and see what it's all about." It's basically the perfect demographic for them anyway. Esports isn't mainstream enough for an approach like that. That's an investment were Riot would almost certainly lose more money than they take back in with new player base, especially because from what I've understood, LoL player base is stagnating, the market is saturated. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 20 2017 13:25 GrandInquisitor wrote: Yeah people try so hard to strip geography out of esports and I don't know why. At the end of the day we are all tribal humans with weird petty allegiances and loyalties to things that shouldn't matter, but do. I mean, college sports is ostensibly the stupidest thing ever. You get to watch indisputably bad players make tons of money for their rich owners while seeing none of it in a horribly corrupt system. And yet people are insanely loyal to their college teams, even though there's theoretically little bond between a State U student and a State U football player, because they essentially go to different schools with different admissions processes, entrance requirements, living facilities, and classes. If I were Riot, I'd try to make things geographic, but I'd also invest a ton into collegiate League play. Huge marketing opportunity right there. Fund some small scholarships for some good schools, pay for some spruced up tournament finals, and use it to market to a whole bunch of potential players who aren't necessarily interested in League, but will be like "Hey our college team is doing well, let's check it out and see what it's all about." It's basically the perfect demographic for them anyway. I guess this is another big difference in mentalities. I've never had professional gaming here, it's never been relevant and we had basically no international success. Teams I support in esports have nothing to do with me and never have. So geography isn't important, in fact it's actually a negative in my view. I like that a team isn't fixed to a location but instead an entity within the game itself. Esports definitely helps bridge boundaries. I think any move that goes opposite to that is doing it a disservice. Isolationism does seem to be on the rise so though I can understand why it makes sense from a marketing perspective. edit: Also can people stop saying esports isn't "mainstream". I don't get it at all. I play Hockey(Field hockey for you guys) and that's barely a sport in most countries. It doesn't have a professional scene here and only has one in a few countries(Netherlands for example). I wouldn't be surprised if the people that play+watch it is 10 times less than League. The pro players in league most likely earn far far more money. How is something that is watched by so many, played by so many, with so much money not mainstream? Is "mainstream" just some arb metric people dream up to justify certain attitudes? The metric surely can't be if it's on TV since I've been at gym with one of the TVs showing Overwatch Apex live on supersport. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
On October 20 2017 18:41 JimmiC wrote: For people who dont think geography works in esports. What do you think the whole na vs eu rivarly is based on? An inability to beat Korea? @Numy, if hockey is on TV over here that's already a million viewers or so, add in Australia, India, Great-Britain and the viewership dwars League in every aspect. And that's for a small sport. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
The timing of this comment | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
I literally came home one minute ago, guess I should've checked results first :> | ||
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loSleb
Austria1389 Posts
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
On October 20 2017 11:54 chipmonklord17 wrote: While I see where you're coming from I just disagree. Regions don't matter. At all. Maybe it helps those that aren't "in the know" in the esports world but it just doesn't matter. I guess IMT is a good example of what I mean. When you're not in the know, their OWL team being in LA might be appealing to someone who is in LA themselves, but anyone in the know knows IMT has a Brazilian CS:GO team, an NA LCS team, and a Korean DOTA team, once you found an org you like you're gonna support their team. I don't root for an NA CS:GO team, I root for a brand I like. Who I root for in Melee isn't influenced by who is east coast despite me being east coast myself. My favorite teams span regions, hell ,continents. I get that that's where esports was but there's no indication that its where it IS. Not to mention having a geolocation based league that spans continents has its own set of stupidity. What happens when the Shanghai Dragons can't get a visa to play in London? Why even risk that? The only thing its good for is being able to go see a game live like someone mentioned earlier. But I just don't see the OWL model working. I think what Riot's doing now is going to be far more successful than this iteration of the OWL ever could be You say you "see where I'm coming from" but you just ignore what I said :D The regionalism is rooted in competitive gaming. Rushdown West Coast vs Zoning East Coast, Chinese Dota vs whatever other regions are playing, NA vs EU in League, Poland vs Sweden in CS and so forth and so forth and so forth and so forth and so forth. Saying that "geolocation makes no sense since games can be played anywhere with an internet connection" is like saying that gelocation makes no sense in football since it can be played anywhere with a ball. And that's just me talking about principles. As for OWL model in particular, there are two simple points - one is to have a touring show, and in this particular model it works better if every team has a "home stadium", and the other is to give people more reasons to care. No one says you have to root for your local team, plenty of football fans I know root for teams in other regions, but on top of them there's a lot who do in fact cheer for the home team. When IEM is in Poland, polish fans come to cheer for teams that have poles on them. When Worlds are in China, crowd cheers the loudest for Chinese teams. That to me is enough proof that it's worth to at least try the state-team model. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/77tyov/goodbye_romain/ | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/21125519/esports-cloud9-receives-25-million-series-funding-wwe-hunter-pence-others | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
On October 24 2017 06:25 AlterKot wrote: I'm looking forward to Sneaky memeing in a backstage segment during Raw. Idk, I'd keep him away from Pat Patterson. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On October 24 2017 06:25 AlterKot wrote: I'm looking forward to Sneaky memeing in a backstage segment during Raw. Southern WWE fans will love his schtick | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 24 2017 08:39 AlterKot wrote: Enzo cuts promo about video game players being nerds and virgins and sneaky goes "same". Nah, that'd be the Bullet Club, not Enzo. | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ko&ie=UTF-8&u=http://sports.news.naver.com/esports/news/read.nhn?oid=109&aid=0003645112&edit-text= | ||
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LightningStrike
United States14277 Posts
Krepo joins Schalke as Head Coach. | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
On October 25 2017 00:25 lilwisper wrote: I thought I heard about the WWE having massive attendance drops. Is that just for the weekly live shows? Their finances are a mystery, but by all accounts they are doing awful and have been cutting costs heavily. No idea how that plays into them investing like that. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
boring | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
But obviously the shitty thing is that they cut the number of games almost in half. Even less than half for NA. No idea why people on reddit seem to be happy about those changes. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
This is too much stupid for one tweet. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 30 2017 22:58 Redox wrote: Idk what you mean with obscuring strength. But obviously the shitty thing is that they cut the number of games almost in half. Even less than half for NA. No idea why people on reddit seem to be happy about those changes. Essentially Bo3 allow the group play to more closely match team strength going into playoffs. Where as Bo1 like this allows more upsets where teams that have no chance in playoffs look stronger going into playoffs. Same way the Worlds format makes teams look stronger or weaker than they are until you get into the bracket stage. I don't think it's a conincidence that every year you have the same narrative going into worlds and the first week of worlds. In fact worlds plays out exactly the same every single year. "This year Non-KR so strong! - > Week 1 look how strong they are! Maybe they have a chance -> Meme week 2 collapse but still have chance in bracket for gets that got out! -> Bracket loss , oh well they tried their hardest Gap closing!!". I think Reddit is happy because they don't actually want to witness League of legends games. What they want is the story and drama around the games. Having more games doesn't really give more to the story, it mainly just cements a few key stories. Having half the games allows more drama to unfold which is really what they there for. If they wanted to watch more league they'd be pushing for how LCK/OGN has done league. H2K really has tried their hardest to lose all respect possible. Such a crazy greedy company. Angel investors aren't the only way to do business. Have people just forgot how to create sustainable business or is he just an idiot? Just shut up already and pray you haven't killed off your brand entirely. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On October 30 2017 23:07 JimmiC wrote: I'm happy with the once a year relegation, twice did seem excessive. also in every article and so on they have said they moved to best of 1 because it gets more viewers. This makes sense to me I don't have time to watch a bunch of best of three's I can watch a bunch of games. It is also what people are used to from the sports world the regular season is always games and then many sports have series for playoffs, it ups the intensity. Sure it is better for concurrent viewer numbers, but why do random people always care so much about those? I get that Riot cares about them of course. But I dont get anything from more viewers. I only get less games that I could watch if I wanted to. Also while concurrent viewer numbers go up, viewer hours probably go down. Never understood why people rate concurrent viewers higher than viewer hours, in my mind the latter should be more important. Main overall benefit for Riot is probably that they save a lot of production costs. But again why would anyone that is not Riot care about that? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 30 2017 23:21 JimmiC wrote: Everyone who cares about LOL lasting long term should care. The more more profitable it is the more money that will go back into it. That's not how companies operate at all. Most just funnel profits upwards while not actually benefiting the environment they are in. Long term planning is not what corporate want or care about. It's about maximizing profits right now. If these people really cared about the long term success of the scene why were they so quick to create an unsustainable business model that required Riot to give them handouts or they throw their toys out the cot? On October 30 2017 23:09 Redox wrote: I would say if anything bo1 is more accurate than bo3 at measuring performance because the result of every single game is counted. Of course provided the overall number of games stays the same. If it is half the games as Riot decided now, obiously it is less accurate. So Korean teams aren't that good and SSG shouldn't be in finals since they lost first game? We've had this format before, the teams that floated to the top in the league often weren't at the top come playoffs. How is that better measure of performance then? I think if you want to do a large Bo1 round robin then there just shouldn't be a playoffs. The concept of league into playoffs is pretty weird anyway. It's two vastly different metrics with vastly different skillsets. Or they could award something for league placements that aren't just playoff positions. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The main part of the announcement that I don't like is the viewership bonus. That seems like just a free giveaway to G2/UOL/etc. How are smaller teams supposed to hit these bonuses and compete with teams that already had a lot more money than they did? And does this keep teams forever in the cycle of signing washed-up old veterans instead of developing promising new talent? On October 30 2017 23:04 Numy wrote: Essentially Bo3 allow the group play to more closely match team strength going into playoffs. Where as Bo1 like this allows more upsets where teams that have no chance in playoffs look stronger going into playoffs. Same way the Worlds format makes teams look stronger or weaker than they are until you get into the bracket stage. I don't think it's a conincidence that every year you have the same narrative going into worlds and the first week of worlds. In fact worlds plays out exactly the same every single year. "This year Non-KR so strong! - > Week 1 look how strong they are! Maybe they have a chance -> Meme week 2 collapse but still have chance in bracket for gets that got out! -> Bracket loss , oh well they tried their hardest Gap closing!!". I think you just took a completely unrelated phenomenon (western teams being complete ass at adapting) in arguing against Bo1, because if your theory is that Bo1 masks team strength until Bo3, well, why are there week 2 Bo1 collapses? If anything, Western teams definitely could use more work on their Bo1 game, since they have consistently shown trouble getting out of groups at Worlds (and no, the answer isn't more fucking Bo3 series in Worlds groups, agh). More generally, I have never really thought that the Bo1 standings were illegitimate. Did FNC just get "lucky" when they went 18-0? Has there been any Bo1 split champion that didn't deserve it? Sure, anybody can get unlucky on one day. But if you consistently get "lucky" throughout the season, you are probably just a better team than the team that is consistently "unlucky" throughout the season. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
My opinion is that the two systems are not comparable. The seedings into the playoffs for finishes in the league distorts the actual strength of the teams in the playoffs. So you have teams finishing higher than they would have if otherwise placed. That's why I argue that giving another kind of reward for league finishing outside of playoffs would be better. Or they just put more emphasis on it. Week 2 collapse is not a western thing. It's a NA thing. It's important to distinguish those two. edit: Also really dislike people claiming Bo3 was a disaster while not acknowledging the group format Riot EU forced. It's very hard to tell which had a greater impact on overall loss of interest. LCK has been running bo3 for years and yet there is lots of interest there. Why this big difference? Just the different audiences? Or is it their better scheduling and production? I'd have liked to try some kind of compromise instead of just defaulting to "this just can't work!!". | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 31 2017 01:29 Numy wrote: edit: Also really dislike people claiming Bo3 was a disaster while not acknowledging the group format Riot EU forced. It's very hard to tell which had a greater impact on overall loss of interest. LCK has been running bo3 for years and yet there is lots of interest there. Why this big difference? Just the different audiences? Or is it their better scheduling and production? I'd have liked to try some kind of compromise instead of just defaulting to "this just can't work!!". But we did have a control group - NA, which saw its viewership plummet. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 31 2017 02:56 Numy wrote: I didn't realize they were planning to franchise in 2019. Guess it's the US Net neutrality strategy. If you try enough times eventually people will be tired of fighting it. I don't think the teams really care what the fans think if it goes against their own interests. | ||
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On October 31 2017 01:29 Numy wrote: Also really dislike people claiming Bo3 was a disaster while not acknowledging the group format Riot EU forced. It's very hard to tell which had a greater impact on overall loss of interest. LCK has been running bo3 for years and yet there is lots of interest there. Why this big difference? Just the different audiences? Or is it their better scheduling and production? I'd have liked to try some kind of compromise instead of just defaulting to "this just can't work!!". LCK usually only has 2 Bo3 matches a day if I am not mistaken. LCS EU/NA tried to cram 2 more by working a second stream. When I would watch LCS sure I would watch my team but I would watch the other matches too. Trying to have 2 streams on is impossible to watch unless you watch without the commentary, which I know some folks do. What's worse is that a lot of the times the interesting matches were on at the same time so you had to choose. Yes vods exist but it isn't the same as live watching when your mood is set for watching games. I feel the LCK has a more digestible format. They spread it over 5 days instead of 3. They only have one stream so your attention isn't divided. Way more easier to invest into a Bo3 if you wanted to watch one. I think LCS can run Bo1's but like what was said before, have more of them so that the randomness is factored out. Spread it out over more days. Sure it will up your production costs, but it would be more digestible so people could watch more. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On October 31 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote: So, if I understand the changes correctly, there won't be any teams with more than one nationality beneath LCS level? If so, that seems pretty dumb. Unless I misread somewhere its just that the teams that competed in those leagues would now make up new challenger. So teams like Giants' and G2's sister teams. But I could be wrong, I mostly skimmed | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
I honestly did wish they played more games tho, should be possible to fit in 50% more games by playing some on fridays and extending it a week or 2? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 02 2017 08:46 Kaneh wrote: if you just doubled the amount of bo1 games in a season it would be the same competitively as bo3s really. The whole thing is literally just more games = better sample size. bo3 isn't inherently better at finding a 'good' team. It just causes more headaches scheduling I honestly did wish they played more games tho, should be possible to fit in 50% more games by playing some on fridays and extending it a week or 2? Especially since they don't need to break for Katowice now. Sadly a 50% increase makes side disadvantage, so you'd be going back to 4xrr to keep Bo1s or, in my opinion, 2xrr Bo2s. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On October 31 2017 03:13 GrandInquisitor wrote: But we did have a control group - NA, which saw its viewership plummet. yeah. i used to watch live, but most of the time i just watch the vods - usually skipping through laning phase unless a lot of stuff happens - the day after. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Big RIP for EU. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On November 06 2017 06:09 Gahlo wrote: OpTic Gaming Expected to Bring on Romain Bigeard, Vizicsacsi and Hylissang Big RIP for EU. Huge blow to UoL, torn between wanting it to be true so the players can benefit even more from their skill and wanting it to be not true for the sake of the org I'm a fan of | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
In regards to the Olympic committee announcement today | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
https://www.olympic.org/news/communique-of-the-olympic-summit The development of "eSports" The Summit discussed the rapid development of what are called "eSports", and the current involvement of various Olympic Movement stakeholders. The Summit agreed that:
The Summit asked the IOC together with GAISF in a dialogue with the gaming industry and players to explore this area further and to come back to the Olympic Movement stakeholders in due course. The addition of 'may' and 'could' suggests that no decision regarding ellegibility of e-sports as olympic games in this respect has been made. I did not see anything that implied gaming 'should' be seen as a sport according to the IOC. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 07 2017 14:52 Slusher wrote: https://twitter.com/coreagaming/status/927773881980526592 In regards to the Olympic committee announcement today Yeah, but what esports are in the Olympics? | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On November 07 2017 20:16 Gahlo wrote: Yeah, but what esports are in the Olympics? https://www.olympic.org/news/intel-brings-esports-to-pyeongchang-ahead-of-the-olympic-winter-games | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 07 2017 21:16 Ansibled wrote: https://www.olympic.org/news/intel-brings-esports-to-pyeongchang-ahead-of-the-olympic-winter-games So Steep and SC2. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
CJ Entus letting go its players and coaches. Netizens hopeful they are taking over Longzhu. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/21415701/league-legends-sources-rockets-cavs-choose-league-legends-franchise-brands | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 15 2017 13:22 Gahlo wrote: I think they're both gag inducing. This. On November 15 2017 13:26 JimmiC wrote: Whatever, every team name is pretty dumb, its results and longevity that make them cool. Objectively its not like "Team Solo Mid" or "Cloud 9" are good. Their branding and so on will make the difference not the name. Both those names are better, and even so both are referred to (respectively) as TSM and C9. CC and 100T are not really great acronyms (T-100 is like 50x better), and these people have the benefit of not being 18 year old amateurs when creating the name. Here are better (yet still stupid names) Cleveland Legendary Esports (CLE) Houston Oilsports University (HOU) | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On November 15 2017 14:47 cLutZ wrote: This. Both those names are better, and even so both are referred to (respectively) as TSM and C9. CC and 100T are not really great acronyms (T-100 is like 50x better), and these people have the benefit of not being 18 year old amateurs when creating the name. Here are better (yet still stupid names) Cleveland Legendary Esports (CLE) Houston Oilsports University (HOU) City affiliation does not make much sense though. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 15 2017 19:54 Redox wrote: City affiliation does not make much sense though. True, but the point is you are professionals not 18 year old Regi Plus, clutch city is already a Houston thing from the 90s, and they dropped it because its stupid. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 16 2017 03:05 zer0das wrote: Yes it does? It means you're a mid laner with no one else in your lane? Or perhaps 1v9ing as mid. It makes a lot more sense in context of the game, since it came from strategy site name, and you sure don't control the other 4 people on your team. What? Mid has always been a solo lane since the inception of this game. Solo Mid seems incredibly redundant at worst. If you wanted to stress the importance of the Mid player/role, Team Mid Carry is more apt. Solo Mid in general is just a silly phrase. You'd have to have zero experience with MOBA games to garner any sort of new knowledge from that. My main point is that Team Solo Mid is rather contradictory, if anything, if you look at the two parts. It's basically saying a team of one player (Mid)? Take that name and use it in any other new, competitive situation and you have to wonder how the other four players on the team feels that their Mid thinks he's going to 1v9 in a team game. Lastly, you got the timing a little reversed. Regi made TSM team brand long before he expanded over to League strategy on his website. Edit: I think Cloud 9 is a good name. It comes from actual English idiom and has positive ideology behind it. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Don't get me wrong, I loath the TSM brand and team. But their team name is the only thing I think they have going for them. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 16 2017 05:10 Slusher wrote: If you think TSM is a good name and these suck you are heavily undervaluing the effect of familiarity on you. I like the tsm brand I like how their simple white on black logo reminds me of the Yankees. But in a vacuum that name is equally terrible to the worst team name you can think of. That's why they prefer to be called TSM now over Team Solo Mid, game way G2 wants to be called G2 instead of Gamers2. But again, we're talking about Regi coming up with it over multi million(don't know if they hit billion) sports teams that pay people to come up with shit like this. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
I'd say it's the best so far from the NBA orgs, but still has plenty of room for memeage in the League vernacular. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
However, maybe their marketing team looked at teams like Team SoloMid and said look how stupid this team name is and how popular they are. If our name is EVEN MORE stupid we'll be even more popular? Right?! | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On November 16 2017 18:10 cLutZ wrote: Why not just "Warriors"? Is that not a perfectly good name? What about "Guardians"? Why must they persist in being memes. Golden Warriors would have been super simple and a good name. Guardians makes me think of those dumb skins in the LoL shop. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On November 16 2017 21:29 Gahlo wrote: Golden Warriors might have been too close to their NBA branding, which they aren't allowed to use for stuff outside of the NBA. I read on reddit that the only thing that is trademarked is the full name, not the individual parts. Golden State for example is not owned by anyone. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On November 16 2017 03:19 NeoIllusions wrote:My main point is that Team Solo Mid is rather contradictory, if anything, if you look at the two parts. It's basically saying a team of one player (Mid)? Take that name and use it in any other new, competitive situation and you have to wonder how the other four players on the team feels that their Mid thinks he's going to 1v9 in a team game. Lastly, you got the timing a little reversed. Regi made TSM team brand long before he expanded over to League strategy on his website. The game has largely consisted of Faker clapping the competition pretty much nonstop to world championships, and he almost carried this hulking corpse of SKT to a world championship. I'm finding it somewhat hilarious you're insisting the whole 1v9 thing doesn't make any sense at all. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 17 2017 00:40 zer0das wrote: The game has largely consisted of Faker clapping the competition pretty much nonstop to world championships, and he almost carried this hulking corpse of SKT to a world championship. I'm finding it somewhat hilarious you're insisting the whole 1v9 thing doesn't make any sense at all. How did you manage to read my post and come to this conclusion? zzz My post clearly states that 1v9 is a bad situation for a team to be in, much less naming your team after a scenario where 4 of the players on your team are dead weight and only 1 player doing everything so they can win. Why would you name your team after a situation where not all team members are on equal standing, or at the very least attempting to. Doesn't seem like it would foster a good team environment. I'm not even sure why you're bringing SKT into this. Majority of their World Championship victories were when the team was very dominate as a whole. The times where Faker is forced to 1v9, fans and detractors are all shitting on the team for how bad they're doing and obv this year, they didn't win. Much like the Bjergsen and 4 wards meme, it's definitely not a positive reference about the team. Much of this is fairly moot because TSM is largely a brand now and that's what fans see, not the actual name, Team Solo Mid. But since the original discussion is team names, I'm trying to judge on merely that, not the fandom behind it. Why would a Top player sign on a team when everything about the team, including the name, is expecting him to be shit? I'm not insisting the 1v9 doesn't make sense, I'm insisting why would anyone want to be a part of that 9. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
and why would a player not sign to a team just because of their name? thats literally irrelevant both to how much money he'll make and to how the team actually functions. "I signed with dignitas instead of cloud 9 because their name makes me think they want me to make sweet tender love with them." -nobody, ever | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
My commentary about the 1v9 was mainly about team imagery regarding the name. Ofc no one is going to avoid signing on a team based on team name alone. Just like how there's going to be a lot of NA talent wishing to sign on 100 Thieves/Clutch City because it's rolling in NBA money, not giving a fk about how retarded those team sounds. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On November 17 2017 03:45 NeoIllusions wrote: My original argument is that if one of the current entering teams had name their brand Team Solo Mid, instead of 100 Thieves or Clutch City, a lot of people would go wtf as well. So all the hubbub about the new names seems silly to me because a lot of the legacy team names are just as bad, so it's not like I'm going to hold the NBA teams to a higher standard in terms of names. My commentary about the 1v9 was mainly about team imagery regarding the name. Ofc no one is going to avoid signing on a team based on team name alone. Just like how there's going to be a lot of NA talent wishing to sign on 100 Thieves/Clutch City because it's rolling in NBA money, not giving a fk about how retarded those team sounds. 100 Thieves is almost as good as NiPples imo Clutch City would be a fine name if it wasn't an NA team xD | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 17 2017 03:45 NeoIllusions wrote: My original argument is that if one of the current entering teams had name their brand Team Solo Mid, instead of 100 Thieves or Clutch City, a lot of people would go wtf as well. So all the hubbub about the new names seems silly to me because a lot of the legacy team names are just as bad, so it's not like I'm going to hold the NBA teams to a higher standard in terms of names. My commentary about the 1v9 was mainly about team imagery regarding the name. Ofc no one is going to avoid signing on a team based on team name alone. Just like how there's going to be a lot of NA talent wishing to sign on 100 Thieves/Clutch City because it's rolling in NBA money, not giving a fk about how retarded those team sounds. Yea, but that's not a good argument at all. These teams are probably going to be bad (or if they are good it will be due to imports, which is a generally unpopular approach), so they won't be popular. TSM is only acceptable because it is already popular. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7dqsk7/when_this_post_is_12_hours_old_the_first_week_of/ A lot of "NA Talent" on offer. Wonder how Tarzan will explode this time?! | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On November 19 2017 18:37 DarkCore wrote: Lol, Liquid showing up with the money again. Looks like they're going to completely rebuild their team, so I guess Piglet is finally let go? I am personally very excited to see how they manage to lose while owning half the LCS. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On November 19 2017 21:57 Ansibled wrote: I am personally very excited to see how they manage to lose while owning half the LCS. the bigger the portion you own, the easier it is to get 4th place | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 19 2017 23:55 JimmiC wrote: As of right now they will have a decent option at each spot domestically, i wonder who will be the import slots? How close is piglet to becoming a american like berg? At the end of S8. He's currently at 3/4 years. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
At least a couple. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
If you want to import an ADC then you do someone like Zven. Zero communication issues while having skills to boot. I don't have much faith in liquids ability to build a team. They need to get Kuro to come over and short out their lol squad lolol. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 20 2017 02:43 JimmiC wrote: That was the point soon piglet wont be an import slot. If money is not an issue just have him on your bench till hes not an import. If you're using import slots, the best use for them is solo lanes. Maybe they have a roster set up for the season that uses imports in other positions and they need a native player now. Maybe Piglet wants to pull a Doublelift and sit for a split/year | ||
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 20 2017 03:16 St3MoR wrote: but that's pretty much what he did in 2017 :/ Ah, I wouldn't know. There was so many games last year that in trying to keep up with NA, EU, and KR that I ignored all games with teams that weren't in playoff spots unless they were against teams I root for. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
Would also mean Svenskeren is gone too. | ||
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
About importing solo lanes being the best Idk, I see Lyra in spring, and then I think about echo fox, probably different teams need different things | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On November 20 2017 03:20 Gahlo wrote: Per sources, TSM Sven and Mithy. Would also mean Svenskeren is gone too. It's possible they'll keep him as a sub if they want to rotate doublelift with Zven. Or put him in their academy team with Mr Rallez. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 20 2017 03:36 St3MoR wrote: No I was joking he didn't take the year off but he had a very bad year, he played in the midlane too so well, that was just an xD. About importing solo lanes being the best Idk, I see Lyra in spring, and then I think about echo fox, probably different teams need different things Yeah, Lira is pretty good, but there's also a bunch of decent NA junglers in the scene right now where you aren't hurting if you have the 4th best NA jungler. Meanwhile if you have the 4th best top laner, you're struggling, and if you had the 4th best mid you're probably a challenger team trying to sell the contract. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On November 20 2017 03:20 Gahlo wrote: Per sources, TSM Sven and Mithy. Would also mean Svenskeren is gone too. This news is exactly why I'm shocked TL picked up Xmithe and not TSM. Really curious which domestic jungler they got because it definitely seemed like a no brainer to grab Xmithe for themselves if they knew they were importing a bot lane. Glad to see TL picking up Pobelter and Cody Sun because they can use RO/Dardoch/Mickey/Pob/Piglet/Cody combinations where they see fit, I'm just mad I didn't post predicting it beforehand | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On November 20 2017 03:20 Gahlo wrote: Per sources, TSM Sven and Mithy. Would also mean Svenskeren is gone too. God damnit, that's the end of G2, such a tragedy. EU scene is seriously lacking in funds compared to NA, it's a travesty and just depressing seeing teams get torn apart after they perform. EU is like NA's Challenger scene, except NA never performs when it matters. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
On November 20 2017 05:01 DarkCore wrote: God damnit, that's the end of G2, such a tragedy. EU scene is seriously lacking in funds compared to NA, it's a travesty and just depressing seeing teams get torn apart after they perform. EU is like NA's Challenger scene, except NA never performs when it matters. Beating EU at joke events matters. To casual fans, at least. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Not quite PraY/Gorilla but at least this is a Bot lane with years of experience together, coming into TSM, and a decent use of import slots. I echo the ??? about not picking up Xmithie. I'm hard pressed to believe that Regi couldn't field Xmithie a better offer when Steve had to pay out bank (presumptuously) for 5+ players and w/e the TL roster is currently. So I guess Regi has a different NA Jungle in mind already (MikeYeung?)? | ||
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LightningStrike
United States14277 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
KRTop/Sven/Bjerg/Double/Biofrost | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Also, I don't think TSM can have a KR Top and Sven on the roster. afaik, it's two imports per roster, not two imports per lineup you field in a match. Hoarding talent only works if they're NA players. (see: TL) | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 20 2017 05:16 NeoIllusions wrote: Wonder if this means Double is retiring, taking a break or what. Not quite PraY/Gorilla but at least this is a Bot lane with years of experience together, coming into TSM, and a decent use of import slots. I echo the ??? about not picking up Xmithie. I'm hard pressed to believe that Regi couldn't field Xmithie a better offer when Steve had to pay out bank (presumptuously) for 5+ players and w/e the TL roster is currently. So I guess Regi has a different NA Jungle in mind already (MikeYeung?)? Bjerg and Mike have been duoing a lot for the last couple weeks. Though people say Bjerg will go around and duo with other junglers pretty often for short periods of time. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 20 2017 05:58 Gahlo wrote: Bjerg and Mike have been duoing a lot for the last couple weeks. Though people say Bjerg will go around and duo with other junglers pretty often for short periods of time. Counterpoint to that is that they're "prepping" for All-Star. But yeah, I get what you're saying. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On November 20 2017 05:34 NeoIllusions wrote: It's questionable that Double/Bio (Double esp) would want to play rotating Bot with Zven/Mithy. They can end up as starter on just about any other NA LCS team. Also, I don't think TSM can have a KR Top and Sven on the roster. afaik, it's two imports per roster, not two imports per lineup you field in a match. Hoarding talent only works if they're NA players. (see: TL) No you can have as many imports as you want. But the lineup has to be 3 residents 2 imports on game day. TL had Mickey/Reignover/Piglet at end of the year for e.g. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Why is that relevant? You either need native talent that can beat Koreans and Chinese, or imported talent that can do that. Having imports (even if they don't technically count as a slot) that can't beat them is as useless as having a random new challenger, without the potential upside. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 20 2017 07:58 cLutZ wrote: Why is that relevant? You either need native talent that can beat Koreans and Chinese, or imported talent that can do that. Having imports (even if they don't technically count as a slot) that can't beat them is as useless as having a random new challenger, without the potential upside. I'd say having bad imports is worse than having bad domestic talent. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 20 2017 08:09 Gahlo wrote: I'd say having bad imports is worse than having bad domestic talent. Disagree. Bad domestic players can be popular for personality. Also re:Jimmy it's not a worlds or bust model, it's just recognizing that having a veteran that isn't even a hard carry in na is dumb. Doubly so now that you can't be relegated. I mean, ffs Piglet isn't even some "rock" where you can give him no attention and he won't tilt. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 20 2017 08:15 cLutZ wrote: Disagree. Bad domestic players can be popular for personality. Also re:Jimmy it's not a worlds or bust model, it's just recognizing that having a veteran that isn't even a hard carry in na is dumb. Doubly so now that you can't be relegated. I mean, ffs Piglet isn't even some "rock" where you can give him no attention and he won't tilt. Bad imports can be popular for personality too. Import slots are a limited resources. Using them for little/no gain over other options is an ineffective use of that resource. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 20 2017 08:19 JimmiC wrote: But if hes better then your other option and not a import slot he makes you better, if you think codysun is a better player you keep him. But i think piglet is better, especially in certain metas Eh, its not worth it to keep low impact vets, even if they are slightly better. Smarter to just take flyers in rookies or players you think have potential but have had a bad team environment | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
On November 20 2017 05:16 NeoIllusions wrote: Wonder if this means Double is retiring, taking a break or what. Not quite PraY/Gorilla but at least this is a Bot lane with years of experience together, coming into TSM, and a decent use of import slots. I echo the ??? about not picking up Xmithie. I'm hard pressed to believe that Regi couldn't field Xmithie a better offer when Steve had to pay out bank (presumptuously) for 5+ players and w/e the TL roster is currently. So I guess Regi has a different NA Jungle in mind already (MikeYeung?)? Xmithie did seem like he would be a good fit for TSM. Though don't count out a trade/swap of some sorts with Reignover (and maybe +1 like Dardoch or Inori for academy/sub?) for DL/Bio. Or maybe TSM would ask for Xmithie in exchange for DL/Bio. I wouldn't put it past them since Steve/Regi are buddy buddy and these would be mutually beneficial trades. MikeYeung is a fine young player but I just don't see how he would be a good fit on TSM. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
Apparently Samsung managed to keep their team this time :D | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9298 Posts
On November 21 2017 00:47 JimmiC wrote: Anyone know whay that link says, my korean is a little umm rusty.(non existant) It says: + Show Spoiler + 롤드컵 우승을 차지한 삼성 갤럭시가 주전 대부분과 재계약을 완료했다. 20일 오후 삼성 갤럭시는 공식 페이스북을 통해 2018년 계약에 대해 알렸다. 이 게시물에서 삼성은 '큐베' 이성진, '앰비션' 강찬용, '크라운' 이민호, '룰러' 박재혁, '코어장전' 조용인, '하루' 강민승과 재계약을 완료했다고 말했다. 다만 '레이스' 권지민과 '스티치' 이승주 두 선수는 거취에 대해 아직 심사숙고 중인 것으로 알려졌다. 2014년 롤드컵 우승 이후 모든 선수가 팀을 떠나며 다시 팀을 재구성한 삼성 갤럭시는 3년 만에 다시 롤드컵 우승을 차지하는 성과를 거뒀다. 이어 이번 계약으로 내년 시즌에도 다시 롤드컵 우승권 전력을 보유한 팀으로 남게 됐다. Glad I could help | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
If you haven't found a translation yet, from reddit thread: + Show Spoiler + Hello fans, this is Samsung GALAXY Game team. Here we present the 2018 LoL team players. Samsung GALAXY team has concluded a contract with Sungjin Lee(Cuvee), Chanyong Kang(Ambition), Minho Lee(Crown), Jaehyuk Park(Ruler) and Yongin Cho(Corejj). Regarding the player Jimin Kwon(Wraith) and Seungjoo Lee(Stitch), we are still considering about their position. We will anounce the precise news soon. We hope to all our fans to cheer us and love us in 2018 too. Thank you. I am glad SSG will continue into the next year, they don't have any real glaring weaknesses so no need for changes. And it looks like the CN exodus is finally done, they seem to be happy with their own domestic pool plus improts that they nuture themselves. On the other hand, Pray and Gorilla are apparently free agents. RIP LZ, you were insane while you lasted. I was really hoping we'd get to see another season of the big 4 teams, but I guess it was not meant to be. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
I really wonder what SKT and KT will do this year. Nothing has been publishied about those teams, right? Or did I miss something? | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On November 21 2017 04:44 Yorbon wrote: It's pretty unreal for SSG to keep the team together after another year of making worlds finals. Compliments to their management I guess. I really wonder what SKT and KT will do this year. Nothing has been publishied about those teams, right? Or did I miss something? Nothing official as far as I know but the Kespa cup is going on right now so I imagine both teams are in it. Although SKT is notorious for not using their 'real' roster during Kespa cups | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On November 21 2017 05:02 chipmonklord17 wrote: Ah thanks, I certainly did miss the beginning of kespa cup. Nothing official as far as I know but the Kespa cup is going on right now so I imagine both teams are in it. Although SKT is notorious for not using their 'real' roster during Kespa cups | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On November 21 2017 05:40 Yorbon wrote: Ah thanks, I certainly did miss the beginning of kespa cup. The only reason I know it is because the MVP facebook page said they won their first round. I can't find any more information on it, although admittedly I didn't look too hard EDIT: lul its on liquipedia http://wiki.teamliquid.net/leagueoflegends/KeSPA_Cup/2017 | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On November 21 2017 05:45 chipmonklord17 wrote: I saw the same on the liquipedia page. Plus some unknown teams having some results. But judging from mvp's win, I don't think the earlier rounds are really worth watching, apart from potential upsets.The only reason I know it is because the MVP facebook page said they won their first round. I can't find any more information on it, although admittedly I didn't look too hard | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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lilwisper
United States2515 Posts
On November 21 2017 06:03 Ansibled wrote: http://www.espn.co.uk/esports/story/_/id/21492209/impact-sign-team-liquid-sources-say It really amazes me the amount of bank TL throws sometimes. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
Also Impact getting an offer to return to SKT is pretty spicy too. TLs final roster will be very interesting. I feel for Lourlo though, he was the only one without a sub throughout the mess of season 7 and you could tell the guy was trying his hardest. I also assume TL is going to start selling some of the contracts they have or players are gonna leave. There's a zero percent chance Inori gets to play in the LCS if he's behind RO, Dardoch, AND Xmithe. Hell there's really no reason to have all three of them either, unless a sub on the 'main team' can't play for the 'challenger' squad | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On November 21 2017 06:18 lilwisper wrote: It really amazes me the amount of bank TL throws sometimes. Wtfffff, that feel when SKT makes a bid for Impact but TL is the one who takes him home. This is hilarious... | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 21 2017 06:34 DarkCore wrote: Wtfffff, that feel when SKT makes a bid for Impact but TL is the one who takes him home. This is hilarious... Probably doesn't want to deal with Korean scene, being second fiddle to Faker, and makes more money in NA. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
But I also agree in that I would be pretty surprised if c9 doesn't find a way to use both import slots | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 21 2017 07:27 Gahlo wrote: Probably doesn't want to deal with Korean scene, being second fiddle to Faker, and makes more money in NA. Its not like SKT is known for lucrative deals, plus he almost 100% would have to split time with a sub, because SKT does not want to be trapped into a position where they have 2014 Impact with no replacement. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
1) pressure of SKT (kkoma belt and practice times) + korean fans 2) money hes already been there, done that so trophy chasing isnt very relevant for him unlike huni/peanut | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 21 2017 07:56 dsyxelic wrote: pretty sure the two most important factors to denying that offer was 1) pressure of SKT (kkoma belt and practice times) + korean fans 2) money hes already been there, done that so trophy chasing isnt very relevant for him unlike huni/peanut Yeah, pretty much this. I initially thought an orga like TL shouldn't be able to challenge an orga like SKT in pay but apparently KR player salary is still rather abysmal. That said, it says a lot about how Impact would rather stay in NA (TL in particularly) than go back home, back to his former team, which is still likely better than any NA team, in regards to winning. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
Next few days will be very interesting though and already tell us a lot more. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
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