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[Patch 6.8] Rumble Jungle General Discussion - Page 9

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Discuss upcoming 6.9 changes and other mid-season updates here: http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/507856-mid-season-updates
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
April 22 2016 13:50 GMT
#161
I played support for most of my LoL tryhard days. I dodged any game where my AD wasn't an AD main or didn't have a pretty good record for the role.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
April 22 2016 13:55 GMT
#162
On April 22 2016 22:50 ticklishmusic wrote:
I played support for most of my LoL tryhard days. I dodged any game where my AD wasn't an AD main or didn't have a pretty good record for the role.

what a tryhard

Although not gonna lie the only reason I started playing ad in s3 was because playing support in low elo was rather annoying lol
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-22 14:03:34
April 22 2016 14:03 GMT
#163
Well I was also mostly a scumbag duoQ. We ran Draven + Morgana and a bunch of other stuff that was insanely strong with even minimal coordination. I jungled a lot too.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
MuddyJam
Profile Joined September 2014
535 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-22 15:02:48
April 22 2016 15:01 GMT
#164
On April 22 2016 22:18 JimmiC wrote:
People who think they constantly get caught with bad whatevers are probably just missing what they are doing wrong. There are bad whatevers on the other team, it's a odd psycology that almost everyone hold and lower, he'll, might just be almost everyone thinks they are the best on their team and need to carry. Most of the successful people Esspecially from the support role realize that they need to do what ever it takes to make their teammates successful and through that they will win.


Your taking a mentality statement too literally. Support is unique in that it is far more sensitive to bad team-mates also for example excellent warding matter less because your team can't take advantage. You can't consistently carry from support, it has nothing to mentality, its caked into the role. Obviously you can climb.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 22 2016 15:35 GMT
#165
--- Nuked ---
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-22 15:38:04
April 22 2016 15:37 GMT
#166
It's not a binary thing, like you "can" or "cannot" carry as a support.

It's just a gradient. Faker could get out of Bronze playing nothing but AP Nunu mid, but it'd be a lot harder for an average player to do that compared to playing Annie or Fizz. Similarly, a genuinely good player can climb low elo as a support, it'll just take longer on average than if he played other roles.

Besides, by definition, one of the five roles has to be the hardest to climb with overall. And overall, that role is probably going to be support for most players. It's not a bad thing, just a reflection that the most team-oriented role is going to be subject to more variance than less team-oriented roles.
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-22 15:49:29
April 22 2016 15:48 GMT
#167
On April 23 2016 00:35 JimmiC wrote:
If by carry you mean you can't win every game, but that is same as most rolls. I mean you can climb fast. Basically you just need to outperform the other support consistently.

And you could just pick another role and climb even faster if you are truly better than everyone else.

Which role is hardest to carry with does change as you get higher but in lower leagues support is garbage compared to the others.

ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-22 15:50:29
April 22 2016 15:50 GMT
#168
that assumes you're pretty good at other roles as well. i'm diamond-level for jungle and support, but pretty as a midlaner i'm basically bronze except for on a couple champs
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
April 22 2016 15:54 GMT
#169
On April 23 2016 00:50 ticklishmusic wrote:
that assumes you're pretty good at other roles as well. i'm diamond-level for jungle and support, but pretty as a midlaner i'm basically bronze except for on a couple champs

Well ye depends how lower than your elo you go.
MuddyJam
Profile Joined September 2014
535 Posts
April 22 2016 16:05 GMT
#170
On April 23 2016 00:37 GrandInquisitor wrote:
It's not a binary thing, like you "can" or "cannot" carry as a support.

It's just a gradient. Faker could get out of Bronze playing nothing but AP Nunu mid, but it'd be a lot harder for an average player to do that compared to playing Annie or Fizz. Similarly, a genuinely good player can climb low elo as a support, it'll just take longer on average than if he played other roles.

Besides, by definition, one of the five roles has to be the hardest to climb with overall. And overall, that role is probably going to be support for most players. It's not a bad thing, just a reflection that the most team-oriented role is going to be subject to more variance than less team-oriented roles.



Read what people are saying. Nobody is claiming a binary carry or can't. Claims of the later would give nonsense. Faker could get to high/mid diamond (definitely on NA, low diamond on KR) playing ap mid nunu, pretty sure random players have gotten diamond with ap zed. Again nobody is claiming you can't claim elo as a support.

Finally, you use a false analogy. A finite set one must have a the lower bound but is is not true they can't all have the same qualities. Support plays very differently at top level vs low level. People elo boost/smurf with high win-rates 80+% with every other role but never with support.
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-22 16:11:52
April 22 2016 16:11 GMT
#171
Generally most people don't play support while boosting until plat as far as I know. Only then if they are a group the annie/zyra/w.e spam begins.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 22 2016 16:19 GMT
#172
--- Nuked ---
iamcaustic
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1509 Posts
April 22 2016 16:32 GMT
#173
On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog.

Any reason you flash before starting to cast Dazzle on the new kit? You can move while Dazzle is playing out its delay, just time flash so you land the stun before Trist can react. If she jumps pre-emptively, then you still keep your flash and successfully bullied the enemy ADC, on top of being able to do the same thing again once Dazzle is off CD.

TBH I think this is more of a case of personal mechanics than a supposed loss of Taric's ability to lock down mobile champs with a flash/stun.

On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
As an aside to the Easiest to play supports topic as a Nami player I disagree with her being so low. Ok so I know that it was very clear that skill ceiling is irrelevant and Floor is the only thing to be considered but I simply put out the argument that if you are just spamming W as Nami you are just playing a less mana efficient Sona, and you aren't a whole lot less squishy. I also think the skill floor for when and who to use E on is not as low as implied, the skill is actually quite useless and often forgotten in the hands of bad Nami players.

to me all ranged supports with heals or shields come first on the list just because where to stand as a melee support seems to be confusing to new/bad support players, but I would put Karma/Sona/Soraka/Janna before Nami just because they provide at least 2 retard proof non ultimate spells instead of 1.

You're speaking about personal preference, which is fine, but it's not an argument for/against general ease of use. Sona brings a number of different things to the table than Nami does.

Nami's heal is stronger and not much more mana expensive than Sona's (what you get for the cost is much more efficient overall), plus the heal doubles as poke, which Sona has to do separately. That said, if only poking (no sustain needed), Sona is indeed much more mana efficient when it comes to raw damage. Then there's Nami's E, which has a much different use case than Sona's. Finally, their ults are worlds apart in terms of what they bring to a team comp. Yasuo on your team? I'd take Nami over Sona, for example.
Twitter: @iamcaustic
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
April 22 2016 17:23 GMT
#174
this is one of those topics that has been beaten to death. If you're good, you'll climb as any role. if you aren't you, you won't.

not much else to it. a lot of people pick troll supports in low elo so its actually really easy to climb as support.

id say unless you are playing an assassin, the hardest role to climb is mid since a lot of smurfs pick that role and its pretty hard to punish there. (aka why roamers are good low elo)

I come in for the scraps
Frolossus
Profile Joined February 2010
United States4779 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-22 17:43:56
April 22 2016 17:41 GMT
#175
On April 23 2016 02:23 VayneAuthority wrote:
this is one of those topics that has been beaten to death. If you're good, you'll climb as any role. if you aren't you, you won't.

not much else to it. a lot of people pick troll supports in low elo so its actually really easy to climb as support.

id say unless you are playing an assassin, the hardest role to climb is mid since a lot of smurfs pick that role and its pretty hard to punish there. (aka why roamers are good low elo)


i think mid and jungle are the easiest to climb on


for mid if you are stronger you kill them and deep ward then roam.
if you are weaker you defensively ward and roam.
if you are good you can punish people regardless of if they are a smurf or not
MuddyJam
Profile Joined September 2014
535 Posts
April 22 2016 17:46 GMT
#176
On April 23 2016 02:41 Frolossus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2016 02:23 VayneAuthority wrote:
this is one of those topics that has been beaten to death. If you're good, you'll climb as any role. if you aren't you, you won't.

not much else to it. a lot of people pick troll supports in low elo so its actually really easy to climb as support.

id say unless you are playing an assassin, the hardest role to climb is mid since a lot of smurfs pick that role and its pretty hard to punish there. (aka why roamers are good low elo)


i think mid and jungle are the easiest to climb on



Case and point Apdo used to main mid/jungle because these were the roles that had the most influence to hard cary. And he ended up maining middle. Like best elo boosting champion in the game is TF who is both a mid laner and is not an assassin.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-22 17:56:16
April 22 2016 17:52 GMT
#177
Support is the worst role to carry with in low elo because
1: ADCs are bad and will get caught so they aren't that strong
2: Intentionally playing a non-snowballing and don't farm any gold in an elo where most people are doing that anyway isn't good LOL

you'll climb but slightly lo

the higher you get the more winning your lane and other lanes will snowball the game and you can trust your adc a bit more

you shouldn't get mad laning with adc you just play the hand you're dealt and if going 0/0/0 is the best possible way to play with a terrible adc you should be proud to get 0/0/0
expecting your adc to be good as as bad as expecting your jungler to gank a lot
its just going to make you mad and play worse and it will make you play like they are doing something they are not

for carrying low elo it should be pretty obvious that jungle>mid>top>adc>support

but adc might be better than top sometimes it depends

that said most people blaming this tier list for not winning a lot aren't really good enough to be carrying low elos LOL

higher elos top might be the worst and mid/adc are a lot better depending on what champs are good mid
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
April 22 2016 18:12 GMT
#178
On April 23 2016 02:41 Frolossus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2016 02:23 VayneAuthority wrote:
this is one of those topics that has been beaten to death. If you're good, you'll climb as any role. if you aren't you, you won't.

not much else to it. a lot of people pick troll supports in low elo so its actually really easy to climb as support.

id say unless you are playing an assassin, the hardest role to climb is mid since a lot of smurfs pick that role and its pretty hard to punish there. (aka why roamers are good low elo)


i think mid and jungle are the easiest to climb on


for mid if you are stronger you kill them and deep ward then roam.
if you are weaker you defensively ward and roam.
if you are good you can punish people regardless of if they are a smurf or not


I think you might be biased since you main mid though.

I agree completely that jungle is by far the easiest to climb low elo though its not even close. its all about decsion making which is what they lack the most. TF is basically a jungler in his own right and obvs i count him as an assassin when he roams like crazy and can 100-0 people easily if ahead.

I play all 5 roles pretty equally and ive done plenty of accounts thanks to lyte so these are just my observations. mid never felt that impactful to me unless you are of course playing the tf, fizz, kats of the world
I come in for the scraps
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
April 22 2016 18:17 GMT
#179
On April 23 2016 03:12 VayneAuthority wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2016 02:41 Frolossus wrote:
On April 23 2016 02:23 VayneAuthority wrote:
this is one of those topics that has been beaten to death. If you're good, you'll climb as any role. if you aren't you, you won't.

not much else to it. a lot of people pick troll supports in low elo so its actually really easy to climb as support.

id say unless you are playing an assassin, the hardest role to climb is mid since a lot of smurfs pick that role and its pretty hard to punish there. (aka why roamers are good low elo)


i think mid and jungle are the easiest to climb on


for mid if you are stronger you kill them and deep ward then roam.
if you are weaker you defensively ward and roam.
if you are good you can punish people regardless of if they are a smurf or not


I think you might be biased since you main mid though.

I agree completely that jungle is by far the easiest to climb low elo though its not even close. its all about decsion making which is what they lack the most. TF is basically a jungler in his own right and obvs i count him as an assassin when he roams like crazy and can 100-0 people easily if ahead.

I play all 5 roles pretty equally and ive done plenty of accounts thanks to lyte so these are just my observations. mid never felt that impactful to me unless you are of course playing the tf, fizz, kats of the world

It is a very common opinion. Jungle is probably better this season because of meta but mid has historically been the best.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19573 Posts
April 22 2016 18:29 GMT
#180
On April 23 2016 01:32 iamcaustic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog.

Any reason you flash before starting to cast Dazzle on the new kit? You can move while Dazzle is playing out its delay, just time flash so you land the stun before Trist can react. If she jumps pre-emptively, then you still keep your flash and successfully bullied the enemy ADC, on top of being able to do the same thing again once Dazzle is off CD.

TBH I think this is more of a case of personal mechanics than a supposed loss of Taric's ability to lock down mobile champs with a flash/stun.



No its not. Hitting skillshots is only partially mechanics. Its also about mindgames, and more importantly, the mobility of the champion you are trying to hit. Basically here is a scenario that best exemplifies the difference:

You midlane Ori is having a bit of a tough time against her Zed opponent. He initiates a dive on her with deathmark right as you are pathing between mid towers 1 & 2. Zed, seeing his mistake, re-pressers R going back to his shadow. Point and click Taric's stun follows him (and actually gets stronger if I recall) and your Ori and you can now punish this ill advised dive. Skillshot Taric misses the stun almost every time.

Now why is that important? Because both those stuns are going to work really well against Talon doing that to your Ori, or an Udyr, or a Xin. So the point and click skill is more "mobility neutral" which means it takes away some of the advantages of mobility, which is so undervalued by Riot that most of the strongest characters have dashes or blinks in their kits and basically everyone takes flash.
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