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On April 22 2016 06:06 VayneAuthority wrote:
Ruined reworks for me -
fiora, gangplank, mordekaiser, poppy, skarner, skarner, skarner, skarner, taric, veigar, and soon to be new vlad (sooo clunky to play unless they make drastic changes)
 Poppy rework is one of my favourites. If I'm banished to the top lane, I always try to grab her. I'm also liking the Taric rework, but I'll agree that Morde and Skarner were disasters IMO, because they feel so gimmicky now.
On April 22 2016 06:14 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 05:36 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 05:21 VayneAuthority wrote:On April 22 2016 04:39 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play. More emphasis on "was", less on "is". The whole point of the rework was to make him less basic point/click and more healthy in the greater scope of League's road map. Riot made mention of that numerous times during Taric's development. On April 22 2016 04:39 nafta wrote:
Annie and soraka I'd add Nami into that list. She might not be as great in high Elo where the mechanical, playmaking supports shine, but her kit is pretty straightforward. Only hard part about her is actually landing her Q, but it's pretty simple to understand and use and the rest of her kit (poke/heal/buff/cc) is very easy to execute. Could you link to where you saw that? I saw multiple riot posts on their forum saying they intended to keep him as one of the "simpler" to play supports Here's one example from 2013. Small excerpt from the post: Scarizard said:
What this means, is in his current state he won't get worse - but he ain't gettin' better. We'd need to do some deeper refactoring on Taric to find ways to add more actual counterplay/gameplay in his kit, and hopefully get him feeling like that playmaking/hero support (Even Alistar/Soraka, lesser played supports have these epic moments of feeling like you're moving mountains for your teammates) In short, more playmaking/counterplay, less "basic point/click" in his kit. That doesn't mean he couldn't have been one of the "more basic" champs, but that's not the final result nor one of the core goals they were reiterating throughout Taric's development. On April 22 2016 05:28 nafta wrote:
Well it depends on what skills you consider harder overall. I honestly haven't played normals or ranked below a mid gold level in >2 years so maybe my thoughts on bad players don't align with today's reality. Yeah, at that Elo or higher I'd agree: Braum over Nami every time. Braum support's lane presence, skillshot competency, and playmaking are all a step above once you reach that level. That said, we were talking about "entry level" supports, and mid-Gold certainly isn't "entry level". Tbh reaching mid gold for any player who has played another game competitively should be relatively easy if you put in effort in your first season or at worst start of second season. League skill level is by far the lowest I have seen of any game I have ever played. Obviously has to do with how popular it is.
I don't see how that has any relevancy to anything. The type of person you're describing (like me, who switched over from being a Masters SC2 player) isn't really "entry level". The fact that we migrated from being competitive in another RTS game pretty much precludes us from being considered "entry". I started off playing supports like Thresh, because "entry level" supports were too simplistic and easy to execute for my liking.
On April 22 2016 06:16 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 05:48 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 05:43 VayneAuthority wrote:
A worrying trend for players like me that only enjoy point and click champs, which happens to be really only most really old champs. I feel like my champ pool shrinks every year as opposed to getting bigger even with all the new champ releases.
If i make the right choice I want to 100% be able to calculate my damage, playing minigames and skillshot games or whatever is pretty lame if thats what they fully want to turn the game into I don't think they're going to get rid of point/click as a concept, just on things where it should be harder to succeed (like a stun or other form of hard CC, etc.). When they re-did Tristana, she remained 100% point/click for example, because it made sense for her kit; her damage on E is dependent on subsequent auto stacking (also point/click). Taric is also remaining generally point/click with exception of Dazzle -- which is, coincidentally, a stun. Ahh. But hard CC is the part where having point and click is arguably the most important. Its basically the counter to "mobility" If you wanted to take point and click off something it should be a huge damage spell like Brand ult or a simplistic, mindless, harass like Elise Q. I disagree, and clearly so does Riot. Hard CC can basically be a death sentence if you're caught against a competent opposing team. Something like Brand ult... you just run away from things that would bounce it back to you. Key thing there is that regardless of the ability, you as a player should be able to do something to play around it beyond simply saying "never go anywhere near them". I think the only class that should be allowed to break this rule currently is assassins, since their whole purpose is to delete a target if they can get in range. Taric isn't an assassin.
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On April 22 2016 05:00 nafta wrote:
If you can't combo as alistar after the last change you probably don't have a functioning hand
You haven't seen lee kick away bruisers cuz you play with trash players
I'm, not saying its not good, I'm saying Alistar is a good champ even if you just dont do it. You should do it, I'm just saying you can win games and play very well without it.
No really, since Insec became a thing, people just stopped doing it. But you're right, it could be because I've went from an ~1850 ELO player back then to a gold player now, so I do play with trash players. However, I can't even recall a memorable kick in pro-play though since Insec.
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On April 22 2016 07:49 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 05:00 nafta wrote:
If you can't combo as alistar after the last change you probably don't have a functioning hand
You haven't seen lee kick away bruisers cuz you play with trash players I'm, not saying its not good, I'm saying Alistar is a good champ even if you just dont do it. You should do it, I'm just saying you can win games and play very well without it. No really, since Insec became a thing, people just stopped doing it. But you're right, it could be because I've went from an ~1850 ELO player back then to a gold player now, so I do play with trash players. However, I can't even recall a memorable kick in pro-play though since Insec.
there was one in nalcs i want to say it was rush or dardoch had a nice kick in midlane or smething
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On April 22 2016 08:00 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 07:49 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2016 05:00 nafta wrote:
If you can't combo as alistar after the last change you probably don't have a functioning hand
You haven't seen lee kick away bruisers cuz you play with trash players I'm, not saying its not good, I'm saying Alistar is a good champ even if you just dont do it. You should do it, I'm just saying you can win games and play very well without it. No really, since Insec became a thing, people just stopped doing it. But you're right, it could be because I've went from an ~1850 ELO player back then to a gold player now, so I do play with trash players. However, I can't even recall a memorable kick in pro-play though since Insec. there was one in nalcs i want to say it was rush or dardoch had a nice kick in midlane or smething
Rush setup up some pretty dirty kills with kick for/with Jensen a couple of times. 
Skill floor for supports in my opinion:
Thresh/Bard
<random ordering of the rest depending on comps>
Blitz/Soraka
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On April 22 2016 06:48 nafta wrote:
I don't get this bloodthirsty meme for low elo. Every time I have played on gold or lower(very rare but still) unless I engage everybody is just afk.
The biggest shitfests I have played at is easily d1/low master. It is incredibly rare to not have 2 kills per minute.
Its not necessarily bloodthirsty its just directionless. No one has any clue of what objectives are up and when they can be taken. People fight over 30 minute second dragons like its the fifth. People chase when they could take towers.
Not that this doesn't happen in high MMR, but it happens less. Its one of the reasons it can be so hard to climb as a support. You cannot support a team that will not go to the objectives when they're up.
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On April 22 2016 10:20 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 06:48 nafta wrote:
I don't get this bloodthirsty meme for low elo. Every time I have played on gold or lower(very rare but still) unless I engage everybody is just afk.
The biggest shitfests I have played at is easily d1/low master. It is incredibly rare to not have 2 kills per minute. Its not necessarily bloodthirsty its just directionless. No one has any clue of what objectives are up and when they can be taken. People fight over 30 minute second dragons like its the fifth. People chase when they could take towers. Not that this doesn't happen in high MMR, but it happens less. Its one of the reasons it can be so hard to climb as a support. You cannot support a team that will not go to the objectives when they're up.
The worst is when you get sucked into it. There's a big stalemate in mid and you find yourself as support in bot lane taking the wave of 20 minions because, by golly, somebody should take these and if nobody wants to then it might as well be me.
Then your team dies because the support wasn't there and you took too long to clear the wave.
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On April 22 2016 10:31 JimmiC wrote:
The reason its hard to climb under any roll is you are not good enough. There is plenty of every roll high in ladder. And those people can constantly get there.
That is not what i mean by "hard". I should have said 'takes longer'. Because much of your impact relies on your teammates doing what they should if your team is not then you cannot have as much of an impact.
Not necessarily in terms of "getting farm" but things like running away from the shields in team fights or not being with the team for an important fight. If you're Janna and you have no ADC to peel for in a fight because they're running down bot lane to farm a wave at the river then it doesn't matter how good a Janna you are. This makes play at low levels a lot more random if you're a support, because force multipliers don't do anything when there is no force to multiply.
Good at vision? May not really matter because in bronze probably the biggest problem people have is that they don't look at the map.
That doesn't mean you won't climb, it just means it might not happen as fast.
This is anecdotal, but i have made the climb from Silver to Plat twice so far as a support main[OK, so not at plat yet this season but i will be]. And each time getting over the gold hump took a lot of games but getting to plat from gold was a breeze. Gold 5 to gold 2? 30 games. Silver 2 50lp to Gold 5? 117
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I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support.
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On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support.
Did you que dodge a lot? If not, how much sanity did you lose having to lane with terrible adcs?
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played a game as vayne recently against a taric+kayle lineup
that shit is fking cancer
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Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 07:44 iamcaustic wrote:
Taric is also remaining generally point/click with exception of Dazzle -- which is, coincidentally, a stun. Ahh. But hard CC is the part where having point and click is arguably the most important. Its basically the counter to "mobility" If you wanted to take point and click off something it should be a huge damage spell like Brand ult or a simplistic, mindless, harass like Elise Q. I disagree, and clearly so does Riot. Hard CC can basically be a death sentence if you're caught against a competent opposing team. Something like Brand ult... you just run away from things that would bounce it back to you. Key thing there is that regardless of the ability, you as a player should be able to do something to play around it beyond simply saying "never go anywhere near them". I think the only class that should be allowed to break this rule currently is assassins, since their whole purpose is to delete a target if they can get in range. Taric isn't an assassin.
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog.
As an aside to the Easiest to play supports topic as a Nami player I disagree with her being so low. Ok so I know that it was very clear that skill ceiling is irrelevant and Floor is the only thing to be considered but I simply put out the argument that if you are just spamming W as Nami you are just playing a less mana efficient Sona, and you aren't a whole lot less squishy. I also think the skill floor for when and who to use E on is not as low as implied, the skill is actually quite useless and often forgotten in the hands of bad Nami players.
to me all ranged supports with heals or shields come first on the list just because where to stand as a melee support seems to be confusing to new/bad support players, but I would put Karma/Sona/Soraka/Janna before Nami just because they provide at least 2 retard proof non ultimate spells instead of 1.
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On April 22 2016 14:53 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support. Did you que dodge a lot? If not, how much sanity did you lose having to lane with terrible adcs?
You can't carry them all, but if they suck don't die for them. Just get them to level 6 or 7, ward his lane and then go roam. You need somebody to carry the game, and if that someone isn't the ADC, then you help jungler or mid or even top if you can.
Nami you have to be aggressive and trade because her healing is a lot better than sona's. You can E after autos go out and have it proc, so no point in precasting the E because it gives the enemy a window to respond to trades. I think she's really strong in soloq atm simply because winning lane hard gets you so much.
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On April 22 2016 14:53 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support. Did you que dodge a lot? If not, how much sanity did you lose having to lane with terrible adcs?
I'd say "pick Fiddle" but it doesn't work since they nerfed Terrify's range (and the crows' potential got nerfed twice too). Zoning people with crows then baiting them into a bad trade once you had a couple points into Terrify, then zoning them from the bushes post-6 with a pink... or just buying boots and roaming mid for kills.
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On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support.
You definitely can and I wasn't trying to imply you cannot. But at lower mmrs it's "harder" in that fewer games are within your control unless you're so mechanically superior that you can just kill the enemy lane over and over again(and ideally you're on a Mage so it's kind of like playing mid). If you're not then you still go up because games that aren't in your control you win 50% of and games that are you win greater than 50% on. But if fewer games are in your control then you go up slower.
Fewer games are in the supports control at low mmr (especially peel based supports)
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On April 22 2016 16:32 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support. You definitely can and I wasn't trying to imply you cannot. But at lower mmrs it's "harder" in that fewer games are within your control unless you're so mechanically superior that you can just kill the enemy lane over and over again(and ideally you're on a Mage so it's kind of like playing mid). If you're not then you still go up because games that aren't in your control you win 50% of and games that are you win greater than 50% on. But if fewer games are in your control then you go up slower. Fewer games are in the supports control at low mmr (especially peel based supports)
At lower elo, I'd definitely put a lot less faith in my adc and probably pick damage supports.
The best supports to carry yourself up change as you get better at the game and your teammates deal more and more damage with what they're given.
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On April 22 2016 16:32 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support. You definitely can and I wasn't trying to imply you cannot. But at lower mmrs it's "harder" in that fewer games are within your control unless you're so mechanically superior that you can just kill the enemy lane over and over again(and ideally you're on a Mage so it's kind of like playing mid). If you're not then you still go up because games that aren't in your control you win 50% of and games that are you win greater than 50% on. But if fewer games are in your control then you go up slower. Fewer games are in the supports control at low mmr (especially peel based supports)
People elo boost from all roles but support for a reason. Mata will have to play differently if you put him in low elo. Thats why they all play stuff like blitzcrank so you can hard carry easiest if your just better
edit: also yeah, even build paths for support change. At higher elo you get less gold and its not worth you building full ap or something
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I pretty much went to Plat off of Braum and Maokai (post-nerf, last season, so full tank Maokai with only double dring and AP quints as damage)...
Sometimes it's not about carrying yourself when you can identify somebody that'll do it for you and just keep him alive no matter what.
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anyone here plays poppy after the nerfs? i want to main her now that shes open every game but im clueless vs most ranged matchups, E range seems super low and even when i do decent in lane my winrate on her isnt as good as on other champions, how am i supposed to lane vs something like kayle assuming hes not stupid to get charged into a wall.
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EPT
