EPTBut that doesn't mean the new skillshot necessarily helps mobile champs. Everything in League has tradeoffs. Here, the tradeoff is that Taric's Dazzle range now has a far longer reach with his W, and the channel time can be nullified by accurately predicting how the mobile champ uses his mobility. In your example, with new Taric, maybe Zed starts the dive but then is stunned right as he comes out of his R. By contrast, an immobile champion either should not be getting in range of Dazzle or has other ways of dealing with close-range cc.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
But that doesn't mean the new skillshot necessarily helps mobile champs. Everything in League has tradeoffs. Here, the tradeoff is that Taric's Dazzle range now has a far longer reach with his W, and the channel time can be nullified by accurately predicting how the mobile champ uses his mobility. In your example, with new Taric, maybe Zed starts the dive but then is stunned right as he comes out of his R. By contrast, an immobile champion either should not be getting in range of Dazzle or has other ways of dealing with close-range cc. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On April 23 2016 03:29 cLutZ wrote: No its not. Hitting skillshots is only partially mechanics. Its also about mindgames, and more importantly, the mobility of the champion you are trying to hit. Basically here is a scenario that best exemplifies the difference: You midlane Ori is having a bit of a tough time against her Zed opponent. He initiates a dive on her with deathmark right as you are pathing between mid towers 1 & 2. Zed, seeing his mistake, re-pressers R going back to his shadow. Point and click Taric's stun follows him (and actually gets stronger if I recall) and your Ori and you can now punish this ill advised dive. Skillshot Taric misses the stun almost every time. Now why is that important? Because both those stuns are going to work really well against Talon doing that to your Ori, or an Udyr, or a Xin. So the point and click skill is more "mobility neutral" which means it takes away some of the advantages of mobility, which is so undervalued by Riot that most of the strongest characters have dashes or blinks in their kits and basically everyone takes flash. ... Are you actually going to get off a flash/stun in that kind of scenario on old Taric's kit, though? This seems like an incredible edge case at best. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On April 23 2016 03:59 GrandInquisitor wrote: Yeah, no kidding, a point-and-click skill shot will follow a Zed dash and a skillshot will miss. I think we all could figure that one out on our own. But that doesn't mean the new skillshot necessarily helps mobile champs. Everything in League has tradeoffs. Here, the tradeoff is that Taric's Dazzle range now has a far longer reach with his W, and the channel time can be nullified by accurately predicting how the mobile champ uses his mobility. In your example, with new Taric, maybe Zed starts the dive but then is stunned right as he comes out of his R. By contrast, an immobile champion either should not be getting in range of Dazzle or has other ways of dealing with close-range cc. The point clutz is trying to make, is having a point and click skillshot in the game is a countermeasure to shit like Leblanc and Zed flying all over the place. Removing all cc in the game that is good at tracking down these champions just broadens their advantage over the Brands of the world. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
its possible to have op champs who have skillshots but theres more obvious counterplay | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On April 23 2016 04:26 Slayer91 wrote: most champs with point blank skills are weak because its easy to make them op because everything is undodgeable its possible to have op champs who have skillshots but theres more obvious counterplay Thing is point and click skills can have counterplay in how their used or the ability of the opponents to force them out so they tend to be more punishing than skillshot abilities that are generally more spammy. Issue is when Riot makes point and click abilities that are just as spammy as skillshot ones. On April 23 2016 04:35 Slusher wrote: I like that Riot is addressing this in a way, adding stuff like new poppy w and Cassio w, they also added a new status effect for cassio's w so it could be used in the future. I mean in the end stuff like this might be more elegant than the old "they got AM, grab some point and click" but in the short term it does feel like the tools are limited. I like the Cassio stuff but I do wonder if it's trying to fix a problem they created by trying to fix another problem which may just spiral into them now trying to deal with the new problem they created. Man that sentence kind of flopped while I was writing. Hope you get the gist of it. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On April 23 2016 03:29 cLutZ wrote: No its not. Hitting skillshots is only partially mechanics. Its also about mindgames, and more importantly, the mobility of the champion you are trying to hit. Basically here is a scenario that best exemplifies the difference: You midlane Ori is having a bit of a tough time against her Zed opponent. He initiates a dive on her with deathmark right as you are pathing between mid towers 1 & 2. Zed, seeing his mistake, re-pressers R going back to his shadow. Point and click Taric's stun follows him (and actually gets stronger if I recall) and your Ori and you can now punish this ill advised dive. Skillshot Taric misses the stun almost every time. Now why is that important? Because both those stuns are going to work really well against Talon doing that to your Ori, or an Udyr, or a Xin. So the point and click skill is more "mobility neutral" which means it takes away some of the advantages of mobility, which is so undervalued by Riot that most of the strongest characters have dashes or blinks in their kits and basically everyone takes flash. Having played quite a bit of Taric, you can W your Ori, then attempt to cut him off and aim your E so that you have his deathmark location and where he currently is. It is like Pix with a delay. That being said, that depends on him not having W available and your laner paying attention to Dazzle. I think your example is kind of loaded, no way anyone is ganking a Zed for their Ori and getting a successful kill unless Zed is full retard. You're right, you lose some things in the switch. But you also gain a lot. In fights before Taric was good for one stun, then fuck all. I have had teamfights where due to people being worried about other shit, I just straight up stunned 4 players on the other team with Dazzle. Taric is a team-fighting god right now, in almost every comp. Doesn't matter if you want to dive or if other team wants to dive, or who you want to protect. You have a cute as fuck Sona ult you get to use 3 times in a fight. You also get Kindred ult that doesn't keep your opponents alive, and that the teammate your wish to save can't derp and walk out of. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On April 23 2016 04:35 Slusher wrote: I like that Riot is addressing this in a way, adding stuff like new poppy w and Cassio w, they also added a new status effect for cassio's w so it could be used in the future. I mean in the end stuff like this might be more elegant than the old "they got AM, grab some point and click" but in the short term it does feel like the tools are limited. That is actually a terrible sign, because it means the counter to mobility is going to be picking certain champs, which is exactly what you dont want, besides for LCS I guess. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 23 2016 03:59 GrandInquisitor wrote: Yeah, no kidding, a point-and-click skill shot will follow a Zed dash and a skillshot will miss. I think we all could figure that one out on our own. But that doesn't mean the new skillshot necessarily helps mobile champs. Everything in League has tradeoffs. Here, the tradeoff is that Taric's Dazzle range now has a far longer reach with his W, and the channel time can be nullified by accurately predicting how the mobile champ uses his mobility. In your example, with new Taric, maybe Zed starts the dive but then is stunned right as he comes out of his R. By contrast, an immobile champion either should not be getting in range of Dazzle or has other ways of dealing with close-range cc. I'm not saying that new Dazzle is worse or better than old dazzle. I will say that comparatively its usefulness vs. Immobile/Mobile champs is now weighted more towards usefulness against Immobile. I mean, in your example the Taric somehow anticipated the dive, prepped Dazzle, Flash>W'd his ally. That is an amazing play, well deserving of the reward of a Zed under tower. But it is also a play that makes Madlife Thresh-Hook-Party-Lantern look like a drunk Bronze 3 player. On April 23 2016 04:00 iamcaustic wrote: ... Are you actually going to get off a flash/stun in that kind of scenario on old Taric's kit, though? This seems like an incredible edge case at best. Its not really an edge case at all. You can see it all the time with Lissandra ult (which doesn't even have a travel time!) and Maokai root in pro games where the guy hilariously appears half a screen away with a big ice crystal or angry tree on top of them. It remains one of Ryze's great strengths that he can just root and bop any assassin that tries to sneak around on him (he used to be many moons ago the #1 Ahri counter because of this). | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On April 23 2016 04:55 cLutZ wrote: I'm not saying that new Dazzle is worse or better than old dazzle. I will say that comparatively its usefulness vs. Immobile/Mobile champs is now weighted more towards usefulness against Immobile. I mean, in your example the Taric somehow anticipated the dive, prepped Dazzle, Flash>W'd his ally. That is an amazing play, well deserving of the reward of a Zed under tower. But it is also a play that makes Madlife Thresh-Hook-Party-Lantern look like a drunk Bronze 3 player. Its not really an edge case at all. You can see it all the time with Lissandra ult (which doesn't even have a travel time!) and Maokai root in pro games where the guy hilariously appears half a screen away with a big ice crystal or angry tree on top of them. It remains one of Ryze's great strengths that he can just root and bop any assassin that tries to sneak around on him (he used to be many moons ago the #1 Ahri counter because of this). I wouldn't say his usefulness is scaled towards immoble champions. There are just edge cases where in a gank you can't CC them, pretty much just Zed, LB, and Ahri. You could add Fizz as well, but a good Fizz could Fizzle a Dazzle easily before. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On April 23 2016 04:55 cLutZ wrote: Its not really an edge case at all. You can see it all the time with Lissandra ult (which doesn't even have a travel time!) and Maokai root in pro games where the guy hilariously appears half a screen away with a big ice crystal or angry tree on top of them. It remains one of Ryze's great strengths that he can just root and bop any assassin that tries to sneak around on him (he used to be many moons ago the #1 Ahri counter because of this). Your argument against your "taric flash/stun on a diving/ulting Zed that wants to bail after seeing taric" example being an incredible (and highly unlikely, IMO) edge case is... describing entirely different champions and scenarios? Okay then. Nobody is debating whether point/click root is, conceptually, good at shutting down assassins or not. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 23 2016 05:09 iamcaustic wrote: Your argument against your "taric flash/stun on a diving/ulting Zed that wants to bail after seeing taric" example being an incredible (and highly unlikely, IMO) edge case is... describing entirely different champions and scenarios? Okay then. Nobody is debating whether point/click root is, conceptually, good at shutting down assassins or not. You understand the concept of an example right? That "edge case" is actually just the best example that came to mind at the time. For picks its equally important. Hitting a Lucian with old dazzle is a matter of getting in range, with new dazzle you will miss against competent Lucians unless they facecheck or are otherwise restricted by terrain/other skillshots. Teamfights are more complicated and messy, so its hard to say what exactly. IMO new dazzle is stronger in teamfights because of the potential to stun multiple people. But those people are more likely to be tanks or immobile carries than mobile carries. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On April 23 2016 05:40 cLutZ wrote: You understand the concept of an example right? That "edge case" is actually just the best example that came to mind at the time. For picks its equally important. Hitting a Lucian with old dazzle is a matter of getting in range, with new dazzle you will miss against competent Lucians unless they facecheck or are otherwise restricted by terrain/other skillshots. Teamfights are more complicated and messy, so its hard to say what exactly. IMO new dazzle is stronger in teamfights because of the potential to stun multiple people. But those people are more likely to be tanks or immobile carries than mobile carries. You can restrict Lucian with terrain and teammates Dazzle. Dazzle is likely one of the easiest skillshots to land in the game right now. You use it from two different angles, its quick, its goes through minions. It is awkward as hell to dodge. Its easier and faster to land than Glitter Lance, and it has basically the same mechanics. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On April 23 2016 04:22 Slusher wrote: The point clutz is trying to make, is having a point and click skillshot in the game is a countermeasure to shit like Leblanc and Zed flying all over the place. Removing all cc in the game that is good at tracking down these champions just broadens their advantage over the Brands of the world. I think the answer is more point and click zone cc effects. Sorakas silence is the strongest counter to LB and zed that I know of at the moment. Oh you ulted my carry? My carry is now standing in a silence zone. Coincidentally you are now standing in a silence zone! | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Ya'll are like the kids who would say their wheat bread PB&J is just as good. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On April 23 2016 07:13 KissBlade wrote: Maybe it's because I have my spell effects toned down but I'm having a really hard time seeing Taric's new particles and spell animations. Last night, I had a game where he ulted and I had no idea what his ult was looking like until I noticed they were taking no damage. They're even worse with spell effects turned up everything is just fucking shiny sparkles. I'm pretty sure most pros play on low graphics for this reason, so you see more of the base ability and less random shiny shit On April 23 2016 04:51 VayneAuthority wrote: That is actually a terrible sign, because it means the counter to mobility is going to be picking certain champs, which is exactly what you dont want, besides for LCS I guess. Yea, I think with the focus of the game shifting away from a solo q warrior being able to just shitstomp his opponent and completely conquer the game to more being forced to play with your team and around objectives, the fact that if you draft poorly in matchmade games you're extra punished really goes against the whole "the pick/ban phase shouldn't matter" bullshit Riot was spewing the last few years. In S2/S3, picking appropriate champs was still beneficial, but you could make up for it with just sheer individual influence on the game, and that's really toned down so now if your team doesn't really have a cohesive draft you gotta just play the montecristo "pick comp" strats. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
you can still snowball the game alone and you still won't be able to 1v5 or even 1v2 in many cases if you're 10-0 you dont care who has mobility because at best case they just dont die to you, if anything point and click spells are more dangerous because they can more easily force focus you if you're fed a solo q warrior is basically just a regular warrior whens the last time someone garbage at solo q was good at anything in competitive play | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On April 23 2016 05:40 cLutZ wrote: You understand the concept of an example right? That "edge case" is actually just the best example that came to mind at the time. Your "concept" is well outside the scope of discussing Taric's kit and his personal ability to lock down mobile champions, which was the original conversation you jumped into. This is why I said, and I'll quote myself here: On April 23 2016 05:09 iamcaustic wrote: Nobody is debating whether point/click root is, conceptually, good at shutting down assassins or not. If you're going to join a conversation, try to keep on topic. On April 23 2016 05:40 cLutZ wrote: Hitting a Lucian with old dazzle is a matter of getting in range, with new dazzle you will miss against competent Lucians unless they facecheck or are otherwise restricted by terrain/other skillshots. Teamfights are more complicated and messy, so its hard to say what exactly. IMO new dazzle is stronger in teamfights because of the potential to stun multiple people. But those people are more likely to be tanks or immobile carries than mobile carries. Good, back to Taric's Dazzle. Your absolute declaration that "you will miss against competent Lucians" makes it woefully apparent that you haven't played Taric against Lucian. Between the mechanical difference in how flash/stun is now executed (which was already covered) and the fact that a Lucian will oftentimes dash forward to burst trade against your ADC (which means he won't have it to dash away from your reactive Dazzle), you already have a couple of examples where Lucian's dash won't save him from being stunned. There's a lot of other details at play (like your Bastion buddy's ability to help zone a Lucian with his Dazzle to the point it's a guaranteed stun for one of you) that provide a new dynamic in landing the ability against more mobile champs that simply didn't exist in the old kit. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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