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United States37500 Posts
Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
Taric, the Shield of Valoran, will be updated with the launch of patch 6.8.
Patch 6.8: Live on Apr. 19th, 2015
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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100% dmg to minions lol..... Here we go with the rumble
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Jesus Christ riot, just fucking make changes in preseason because this shit is wacky and you have 100% no clue what its going to do to the game.
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United States15536 Posts
I love chaos. And boy oh boy are we chaos now boys.
As a shit-tier casual, BRING ON THE WEIRD.
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Yea really not understanding Riots design team. At least their new heroes have been pretty fun, just get those guys doing the game. Nothing can be worse than this last split of LCS though so whatever goofy shit they do at least it should be an improvement. Hopefully come end of year they absolutely destroy the trinket system and gut the vision completely.
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I can't tell what is changed about brand
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You land your skills like you're supposed to, you start a forest fire. Smokey is crying somewhere.
Seems identical to old Brand, just a massive buff on his passive if you hit everything.
I'm just shaking my head. Let's just mega buff everything until fights end in a tenth of a second.
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United States15536 Posts
Honestly, this seems a lot like a DotA patch drop: huge, seemingly random, and filled with tons of weird buffs and edge things.
I love DotA patches. And I don't even play DotA.
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That's the way it seems with a few of them, the champion just seems like a better version than the previous one.
Also, wtf was that about Cass passive? No boots on her? Was it saying boots won't work? This really only seems valuable in ~40 min games.
Malzahar will be a FP/B in my opinion, just seems like a stronger version of current malz. They took out his W but put it on his ult which is the only time you would ever really use it and gave him that stronger passive. I think the only change will be his jungle clear level 1 will be worse. On second thought, I'm looking forward to witch doctor malzahar with 45% CDR.
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Riot with the changes to try and make MSI intriguing!
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
We should probably clarify whether we're talking about 6.8 changes (which seem pretty small, and honestly, lane Rumble needs a giant kick in the buff department to become viable again) or the midseason update (which is fucking bonkers). I also assume - though it's not clear - that the midseason update is hitting live after MSI?
Most of the midseason update is probably buffs in terms of "cool stuff you can do", but I assume it will be accompanied by across-the-board numbers nerfs (e.g., I'm very confident that the Brand passive burn % is going to be lowered).
As for 6.8 I'm glad that Iceborn and Grasp finally got nerfed because it was pretty damn clear that both were a little too popular. It wasn't out of the question to see a team building four Iceborn Gauntlet's.
That being said I think that the Grasp change in some sense doesn't go far enough - as a melee top laner, why would you ever take Strength of the Ages or Bond of Stone? Grasp would have to be completely non-viable for you to ever consider the other two. So in that sense I think top lane keystone diversity has a little bit of work necessary.
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On April 20 2016 05:05 cLutZ wrote:
Riot with the changes to try and make MSI intriguing!
Msi won't be on that patch, itll be on live for like 3 days when the tournament starts
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boot enchantments being removed because it conditionally makes certain champs weaker when champ move speeds are higher with alacrity.
The irony is palpable.
(removing enchants like distortion also makes certain champs weaker and so on)
That's one of the top guys (Meddler) making that statement too, hilarious.
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dunno rumbles gonna be even easier to not lose cs vs if he pushes harder
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These changes put him in mid to me, just a hunch
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On April 20 2016 05:07 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Most of the midseason update is probably buffs in terms of "cool stuff you can do", but I assume it will be accompanied by across-the-board numbers nerfs (e.g., I'm very confident that the Brand passive burn % is going to be lowered).
Some might be but looking at the video's it doesn't look like it (given that they generally use zero offensive item builds to show things). The final pop on the third hit looks huge and also looks to do about 10 to 15% max health.
And then there are the items. They went ahead with the "Dash on 30 second cooldown" item. Zhonya and Abyssal now grant CDR because that seems like a good idea
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"Zed no longer gains 20 extra attack damage when activating W - Living Shadow"
The unseen bugfix is the deadliest.
On April 20 2016 05:03 Juddas wrote:
Also, wtf was that about Cass passive? No boots on her? Was it saying boots won't work? This really only seems valuable in ~40 min games.
As I read it, it basically means you dont have to spend gold on boots, so you have extra gold early. Lategame it's a full item slot at no cost (besides whatever enchant you lost from no boots). Seems like an in-direct early and superlate game buff IMO.
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The dragon thing seems pretty interesting. For exnap you play lux as support and if your first early dragon is blue and you get the mana regen you just spam lockdown and shield, but if the first dragon is red you get extra damage so you build damage and are an extra kill source. If your first dragon is air you maybe use te move speed plus swifties to play a roaming game. And if the other side gets the dragon you cry.
Seems like it gives a lot of directions to take your gameplay and build.
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So is ice born a dead item on tanks now? That's a pretty big nerf
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I agree, early water dragon can win lanes hard if the numbers aren't terrible. And if they are terrible it won't accomplish the goal of making early dragons matter.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On April 20 2016 05:26 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 05:07 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Most of the midseason update is probably buffs in terms of "cool stuff you can do", but I assume it will be accompanied by across-the-board numbers nerfs (e.g., I'm very confident that the Brand passive burn % is going to be lowered).
Some might be but looking at the video's it doesn't look like it (given that they generally use zero offensive item builds to show things). The final pop on the third hit looks huge and also looks to do about 10 to 15% max health. And then there are the items. They went ahead with the "Dash on 30 second cooldown" item. Zhonya and Abyssal now grant CDR because that seems like a good idea
Are we ready for another episode of "LL knows balance"? These items are going to break the game just like Duskblade, did, right?
It's a 30-second cooldown Vayne tumble-length dash. How many AP champs are really going to be buying this, given that it's got a Kindlegem in the buildpath and only 60 AP?
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On April 20 2016 05:57 IamPryda wrote:
So is ice born a dead item on tanks now? That's a pretty big nerf
Still gives you damage you wouldn't have otherwise, plus Armor, CDR, and a big slowing zone.
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My 3 most played champs are Syndra, Zyra and Vel'koz. I haven't played a ranked game this season. This might be my glorious return. In Silver.
Also Brand and Malzahar look gooooooooooood. Love that Brand passive explosion.
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yo zyra looks actually pretty cool and non-fucked-up
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Yay, now we get endless AP Ekko pick/ban instead of tank Ekko.
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Malzahar's W was crazy strong, but it was about setting up a proper location to cast it and have people stand 2-3 seconds in it.
If it does 15% of a champion's HP then it's on par with most nukes. They didn't nerf it for nothing.
On April 20 2016 05:00 zer0das wrote:
You land your skills like you're supposed to, you start a forest fire. Smokey is crying somewhere.
Seems identical to old Brand, just a massive buff on his passive if you hit everything.
I'm just shaking my head. Let's just mega buff everything until fights end in a tenth of a second.
It probably comes with damage nerfs (as in, elsewhere than on his passive, which is nerfed for sure before the explosion).
His ult is a place where they'd likely reduce the damage because of the randomness.
Also they said RNG is frustrating when talking about Brand double-killing whoever tries to dive him in lane... then they put these dragons. What?
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Please, for the love of God, let 6.8 be the patch that MSI is played on and not have it be played on 6.9, which is the big Mage update.
If teams play MSI on 6.9 it's going to be a pure clusterfuck and mid lane's going to boil down to who the strongest 2-3 Mages are and building a team around the mid laner again.
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On April 20 2016 05:59 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 05:57 IamPryda wrote:
So is ice born a dead item on tanks now? That's a pretty big nerf Still gives you damage you wouldn't have otherwise, plus Armor, CDR, and a big slowing zone.
iceborn is still stupid strong until they get FH back from trash tier
losing 25 damage isn't that big a deal considering the stats it gives
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On April 20 2016 06:48 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 05:59 Requizen wrote:On April 20 2016 05:57 IamPryda wrote:
So is ice born a dead item on tanks now? That's a pretty big nerf Still gives you damage you wouldn't have otherwise, plus Armor, CDR, and a big slowing zone. iceborn is still stupid strong until they get FH back from trash tier losing 25 damage isn't that big a deal considering the stats it gives
Lowering grasp+ibg proc is a good start though. Tanks did wayyyy too much damage.
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Im predicting a 46% winrate for nasus next patch, where's his ahri compensation buffs?
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On April 20 2016 06:43 Kinie wrote:
Please, for the love of God, let 6.8 be the patch that MSI is played on and not have it be played on 6.9, which is the big Mage update.
If teams play MSI on 6.9 it's going to be a pure clusterfuck and mid lane's going to boil down to who the strongest 2-3 Mages are and building a team around the mid laner again.
Assuming the normal 2 week patch schedule it's basically confirmed msi is NOT on 6.9
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I'd rather not see a version of this game with Bloodrazor and that Rageblade in it.
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On April 20 2016 05:58 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 05:26 Goumindong wrote:On April 20 2016 05:07 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Most of the midseason update is probably buffs in terms of "cool stuff you can do", but I assume it will be accompanied by across-the-board numbers nerfs (e.g., I'm very confident that the Brand passive burn % is going to be lowered).
Some might be but looking at the video's it doesn't look like it (given that they generally use zero offensive item builds to show things). The final pop on the third hit looks huge and also looks to do about 10 to 15% max health. And then there are the items. They went ahead with the "Dash on 30 second cooldown" item. Zhonya and Abyssal now grant CDR because that seems like a good idea Are we ready for another episode of "LL knows balance"? These items are going to break the game just like Duskblade, did, right? It's a 30-second cooldown Vayne tumble-length dash. How many AP champs are really going to be buying this, given that it's got a Kindlegem in the buildpath and only 60 AP?
When we first saw duskblade we didn't see the cooldown on its passive and frankly its still a competent item in the right situation.
We are right about these things far more often than riot is, to be honest.
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I believe you mean disruptors, burst mages, and battle mages.
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Veigar gets 1 AP for every enemy champion he hits with any spell. This is gonna be cray
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are they gonna let that hextech belt go through? annie can buy it? fuck me
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Australia18228 Posts
Olaf buffs. Thought they learnt their lesson with Ekko
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On April 20 2016 09:02 Inflicted wrote:
Olaf buffs. Thought they learnt their lesson with Ekko
not sure how that is related other than both heros got buffed.
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Australia18228 Posts
On April 20 2016 09:11 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 09:02 Inflicted wrote:
Olaf buffs. Thought they learnt their lesson with Ekko not sure how that is related other than both heros got buffed.
Random "small" buffs that will make them broken
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that isn't what happened with Ekko at all on top of the fact that you are suggesting never buffing any heros ever.
Ekko was intentionally overbuffed because he sucks as an assassin and Riot wanted him to be played as one.
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On April 20 2016 09:12 Inflicted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 09:11 Slusher wrote:On April 20 2016 09:02 Inflicted wrote:
Olaf buffs. Thought they learnt their lesson with Ekko not sure how that is related other than both heros got buffed. Random "small" buffs that will make them broken
Olaf is one of those champions (now) that is always going to need small tweaks to numbers. His kit just isn't that stable at the moment because he loses his major defensive steroid to do damage and has no hard CC. I don't see him liking most of the meta items so probably not OP anyways.
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On April 20 2016 09:02 Inflicted wrote:
Olaf buffs. Thought they learnt their lesson with Ekko
Yet Riven isn't being touched because they want to see how she works out in the mage rework environment.
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On April 20 2016 08:45 Gahlo wrote:
Hahahahahaha fuck that.
He is probably losing his minion farming +AP i bet.
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Lol wtf.
Fire drake and Water drake seems OP as shit. Get those and hard snowball game. If it Air / Earth drake, cool, but meh. Well... Earth drake is nice in pro play I guess.
Air drake is good just... meh.
I guess it depends on numbers though.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On April 20 2016 07:53 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 05:58 GrandInquisitor wrote:On April 20 2016 05:26 Goumindong wrote:On April 20 2016 05:07 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Most of the midseason update is probably buffs in terms of "cool stuff you can do", but I assume it will be accompanied by across-the-board numbers nerfs (e.g., I'm very confident that the Brand passive burn % is going to be lowered).
Some might be but looking at the video's it doesn't look like it (given that they generally use zero offensive item builds to show things). The final pop on the third hit looks huge and also looks to do about 10 to 15% max health. And then there are the items. They went ahead with the "Dash on 30 second cooldown" item. Zhonya and Abyssal now grant CDR because that seems like a good idea Are we ready for another episode of "LL knows balance"? These items are going to break the game just like Duskblade, did, right? It's a 30-second cooldown Vayne tumble-length dash. How many AP champs are really going to be buying this, given that it's got a Kindlegem in the buildpath and only 60 AP? When we first saw duskblade we didn't see the cooldown on its passive and frankly its still a competent item in the right situation. We are right about these things far more often than riot is, to be honest.
Here's a list of quotes from after Duskblade was fully revealed (indeed, some after the item went live), with names redacted. You're telling me that the game would be better if these guys were in charge of balance?
it doesn't *really* matter that this item is "ad" themed. you can build it on ap champs as well, because it's still 90 + 25% missing hp. less efficient since you the stats don't add to your combo buuuuuuut if you're a champ that autos with some frequency or has an aa reset maybe? Duskblade on EZ will be hilarious. now he just pokes harder.
regardless of how good or bad this item is (hint its really good)
This will be one of those troll patches like league of cleavers or 420 weedwick that you look back at later and shake your head. its going to be a shitty 2 weeks of league with everything I have read about this item it's gonna be like a hotfix type of issue. Got to say I'm pretty interested I'm probably gonna skip to much work for league tomorrow =-( You guys looking forward to lux Viktor 45 mins 0 action crapfests every pro game for the next month with a sum total of 4 ADCs? I know I am. How could I not be after 4 weeks of it already? You'd think Rito learns from their mistakes, and release brand new items a bit underpowered, rather than overpowered. At least it's been a while that they released a new champion in such a broken state as Diana was.
So is the overall consensus that Duskblade is OPieOP and if you aren't playing an AD melee assassin, you're doing it wrong?
an item that encourages poke even more in a defensive meta, and in its intended use makes champs even more binary? k. hahah.
i can't believe they went live with duskblade
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On April 20 2016 10:10 Goumindong wrote:He is probably losing his minion farming +AP i bet.
Nope.
From S@20:
![[image loading]](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CzgjKvQ-uUI/Vxa7SzHFh8I/AAAAAAAA5_E/_J-6q1Uh0PkdFS5JO2T3r8bOwgLetma8gCLcB/s640/veq.jpg)
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is velkoz a hard counter to azir?
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I dunno, but I remember seeing Velkoz dumping on Azir on Bjerg's stream last night.
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On April 20 2016 12:44 IamPryda wrote:
is velkoz a hard counter to azir?
It is considered a counterpick at the pro level. As mentioned bjerg used it, it's also been used a handful of times in lck.
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United States11390 Posts
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On April 20 2016 12:03 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 07:53 Goumindong wrote:On April 20 2016 05:58 GrandInquisitor wrote:On April 20 2016 05:26 Goumindong wrote:On April 20 2016 05:07 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Most of the midseason update is probably buffs in terms of "cool stuff you can do", but I assume it will be accompanied by across-the-board numbers nerfs (e.g., I'm very confident that the Brand passive burn % is going to be lowered).
Some might be but looking at the video's it doesn't look like it (given that they generally use zero offensive item builds to show things). The final pop on the third hit looks huge and also looks to do about 10 to 15% max health. And then there are the items. They went ahead with the "Dash on 30 second cooldown" item. Zhonya and Abyssal now grant CDR because that seems like a good idea Are we ready for another episode of "LL knows balance"? These items are going to break the game just like Duskblade, did, right? It's a 30-second cooldown Vayne tumble-length dash. How many AP champs are really going to be buying this, given that it's got a Kindlegem in the buildpath and only 60 AP? When we first saw duskblade we didn't see the cooldown on its passive and frankly its still a competent item in the right situation. We are right about these things far more often than riot is, to be honest. Here's a list of quotes from after Duskblade was fully revealed (indeed, some after the item went live), with names redacted. You're telling me that the game would be better if these guys were in charge of balance? Show nested quote +it doesn't *really* matter that this item is "ad" themed. you can build it on ap champs as well, because it's still 90 + 25% missing hp. less efficient since you the stats don't add to your combo buuuuuuut if you're a champ that autos with some frequency or has an aa reset maybe? Show nested quote +regardless of how good or bad this item is (hint its really good)
This will be one of those troll patches like league of cleavers or 420 weedwick that you look back at later and shake your head. its going to be a shitty 2 weeks of league Show nested quote +with everything I have read about this item it's gonna be like a hotfix type of issue. Got to say I'm pretty interested I'm probably gonna skip to much work for league tomorrow =-( Show nested quote +You guys looking forward to lux Viktor 45 mins 0 action crapfests every pro game for the next month with a sum total of 4 ADCs? I know I am. How could I not be after 4 weeks of it already? Show nested quote +You'd think Rito learns from their mistakes, and release brand new items a bit underpowered, rather than overpowered. At least it's been a while that they released a new champion in such a broken state as Diana was.
Show nested quote +So is the overall consensus that Duskblade is OPieOP and if you aren't playing an AD melee assassin, you're doing it wrong?
Show nested quote +an item that encourages poke even more in a defensive meta, and in its intended use makes champs even more binary? k. hahah.
u don't want me in charge of balance? I'd build a giant wall to keep the tank meta out and make the devourer jungers pay for it
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Ekko nerfs are pretty light. Will prob see more offtank AP ekko builds RoA->IBG->abyssal/zhonya types
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....Velkoz has been a known counterpick for several weeks now...
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On April 20 2016 14:24 MooMooMugi wrote:
Ekko nerfs are pretty light. Will prob see more offtank AP ekko builds RoA->IBG->abyssal/zhonya types
Yea I think Ekko might still be ridiculously strong since he's gotten a ton of incremental buffs to push AP Ekko over Tank Ekko.
But all of the incremental nerfs are pretty big when put together, for example Nautilus is down ~15-20% of his overall dps with the Grasp, IBG, and his earlier E nerf. In terms of flat burst it's also ~350 dmg before resists which means now as an ADC instead of getting destroyed while CC-locked you live with a little more and can start lifestealing and kiting out of the fight.
I think this is a lot better than last season when they would just gut any champion that was dominant, but all of the attempts to nudge things into balance might go out the window in the new patch (or we might just see a million bruiser APs in top and mid again).
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They really want AP Ekko to be a thing, but people play it already...
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After the nerfs to corrupting potion will rammus still be op in top lane?
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Decided to start up the solo grind after finishing my finals, and how do you play bot in this meta?
Back in S5 I remember if I was better than their duo I could pound them, and deny farm or even kill them.. But in this meta I take two steps passed my minion lane and there's their jungler, and a double TP. Is there really nothing you can do as ADC to impact the game? Feels like every game is over in 15 minute because one of your solo laners have 5 kills, or their solo laner has 5 kills.
I've only played 10 games, and I might just be bad because I took a 4 month break, but does anyone have any tips on how to play bot lane now? It can't just be passive farm and hope that your team breaks even or wins..
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On April 21 2016 05:04 RagequitBM wrote:
Decided to start up the solo grind after finishing my finals, and how do you play bot in this meta?
Back in S5 I remember if I was better than their duo I could pound them, and deny farm or even kill them.. But in this meta I take two steps passed my minion lane and there's their jungler, and a double TP. Is there really nothing you can do as ADC to impact the game? Feels like every game is over in 15 minute because one of your solo laners have 5 kills, or their solo laner has 5 kills.
I've only played 10 games, and I might just be bad because I took a 4 month break, but does anyone have any tips on how to play bot lane now? It can't just be passive farm and hope that your team breaks even or wins..
Pretty much, the more successful ADC in solo q atm are hyper carries. Kog, twitch, jhin all good examples. If passively farming in lane isnt really your style, utility ADCs are also good right now ( i see sivir as your pic)
Sivir, ashe, ezreal (I put him more in this category because his waveclear/poke/kiting are all basically annoying utility)
What champions have you been trying to play? Lucian is an okay choice for aggro adc because of his low cd dash to escape those TP situations but you better be damn good at him.
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I miss the old Taric already. The new one isn't bad, but it's not Taric anymore. I wish there was at least some armor scaling on the spells that protect my teammates so I'd have a reason to get armor.
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How to ADC in season 6: If your support isn't Alistar, Braum, Janna or Soraka you dodge. :^)
You need to be suuuuper mindful of TP timers now. If theirs is up, or they got more you have to play extremely defensive there's not really a lot you can do about besides playing something slippery and trust in your support. Always pink away the teleport ward on your side of the lane and try to keep one on their side.
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On April 21 2016 05:47 Prog wrote:
I miss the old Taric already. The new one isn't bad, but it's not Taric anymore. I wish there was at least some armor scaling on the spells that protect my teammates so I'd have a reason to get armor.
yeah but its not like the armour scaling was even good
like old taric gave +30 armour at level 9
new taric you built like 200 armour get one shot by mages do no damage and have no range and slow attacks
was pure garbage LOL
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On April 21 2016 05:04 RagequitBM wrote:
Decided to start up the solo grind after finishing my finals, and how do you play bot in this meta?
Back in S5 I remember if I was better than their duo I could pound them, and deny farm or even kill them.. But in this meta I take two steps passed my minion lane and there's their jungler, and a double TP. Is there really nothing you can do as ADC to impact the game? Feels like every game is over in 15 minute because one of your solo laners have 5 kills, or their solo laner has 5 kills.
I've only played 10 games, and I might just be bad because I took a 4 month break, but does anyone have any tips on how to play bot lane now? It can't just be passive farm and hope that your team breaks even or wins..
Well, you can but it takes coordination with your support. You've got to prevent deep wards for the port plays and get your own deep wards to prevent ganks. This seems like bot lane 101 but it's hard to do well. You need a sweeper and pinks and green wards. Pinks plural. They're cheap, always leave base with a pink.
It's been off and on this way since ADs stopped taking ignite since the AD meta is almost always a response to the top/mid meta. When the top/mid meta is assassins then mobile/safe/early ADs tend to be powerful. When top/mid is tank/Mage then late scalers tend to be powerful.
Now it's generally stronger to push and rotate rather than force a play. It's hard to engage under tower against a hard peel support and a late scaling/utility carry unless you're diving with the jungler or top. Which means they have to be ahead/you're relying on them.
Sometimes this relies on your support to roam while the AD farms, sometimes you can go together, but in general it's best to think of a tank focused meta as a team fight focused meta. If you're not the one ready for a team fight the other team is probably ready to make a team fight out of you.
Additionally it's worth noting that dynamic queue has increased the general level of play because fewer people get off roles and because the increased number of groups has upped coordination.
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Taric stun is so much shorter range than I thought it was going to be...
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On April 21 2016 06:00 Jek wrote:
How to ADC in season 6: If your support isn't Alistar, Braum, Janna or Soraka you dodge. :^)
You need to be suuuuper mindful of TP timers now. If theirs is up, or they got more you have to play extremely defensive there's not really a lot you can do about besides playing something slippery and trust in your support. Always pink away the teleport ward on your side of the lane and try to keep one on their side.
I mean, you could just do better in the vision battle. Like you mentioned, it's good to be clearing out their wards and setting up your own -- which you really should be doing anyway to avoid standard jg ganks, let alone TP plays. I'm also encouraged by the removal of Distortion enchantment (but that's 6.9 I suppose).
As an ADC main, what I'm thankful for is the following:
- Iceborn/Grasp nerfs
- Mercurial Scimitar cost reduction
Sure, Scimitar gets a 10 AD nerf, but really it's built for QSS slot efficiency. Being able to complete that item even just a bit faster should feel better overall IMO. Iceborn/Grasp should be pretty obvious; the amount of dmg and sustain tanks currently have is crazy. It got a lot better with the Marksman update, but changes since then have creeped up the power level of tanks once again. I don't think these changes necessarily go far enough for the tank class as a whole, but it's a good stepping stone to execute and evaluate.
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On April 21 2016 07:51 JimmiC wrote:
I'm not sure that Taric will see much play. The ult sounds op but in practice the 2.5 sec wind up time is super hard to predict.
rest of his stuff is pretty strong regardless of his ult. stun range is a bit small but I am gonna say he will get played eventually even if it takes a small buff to push him into a contested pick.
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I am not sure how to level his skills. They all seem very 1 pt wonder. His E gets .125 second stun and 45 damage. His W gets 2.5% bonus armor/1% max health. His Q gets 10-30 HP[10 HP per 15 seconds0
His E looks the strongest on paper, but Q has the lowest CD if he is proccing his passive and its AoE.
E>Q>W? E=Q>W?
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Probably E>Q>W.
W and E have a static 60 mana cost while his heal goes from 60 to 140. Sounds like a good way to destroy your mana pool.
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On April 21 2016 10:18 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 10:05 IamPryda wrote:On April 21 2016 07:51 JimmiC wrote:
I'm not sure that Taric will see much play. The ult sounds op but in practice the 2.5 sec wind up time is super hard to predict.
rest of his stuff is pretty strong regardless of his ult. stun range is a bit small but I am gonna say he will get played eventually even if it takes a small buff to push him into a contested pick. With a buff that's possible but most anyone will with a buff so I mean as of now. It is an interesting kit, so there's win. I do hope they find the right balance.
I am just saying from past history new or reworked champs seem to always get a nudge if they are not being picked up
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I'd say E>Q>W is the best to skill for Taric.
I only played 3-4 games with him yesterday BUT he seems okay. I thought he's gonna be way stronger, judging by trailers and stuff but his heal on Q seems pretty damn weak.
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In his current state he seems like one of those champs who will be much better in competitive than solo Q (whether he makes it to pro play or not is another matter).
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taric felt pretty broken to me from what I saw/played so far
will definitely see pro play without any more buffs and such.
his W witih ult and stun has just too much utility to pass up. tower dives are so free.
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I like the new Taric. You can pretty much keep his passive up 100% of the time by spamming Q during a fight and as long your hitting people the CD on Q is nullified. IBG and rageblade on him are pretty good.
Don't judge me
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On April 21 2016 05:37 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 05:04 RagequitBM wrote:
Decided to start up the solo grind after finishing my finals, and how do you play bot in this meta?
Back in S5 I remember if I was better than their duo I could pound them, and deny farm or even kill them.. But in this meta I take two steps passed my minion lane and there's their jungler, and a double TP. Is there really nothing you can do as ADC to impact the game? Feels like every game is over in 15 minute because one of your solo laners have 5 kills, or their solo laner has 5 kills.
I've only played 10 games, and I might just be bad because I took a 4 month break, but does anyone have any tips on how to play bot lane now? It can't just be passive farm and hope that your team breaks even or wins.. Pretty much, the more successful ADC in solo q atm are hyper carries. Kog, twitch, jhin all good examples. If passively farming in lane isnt really your style, utility ADCs are also good right now ( i see sivir as your pic) Sivir, ashe, ezreal (I put him more in this category because his waveclear/poke/kiting are all basically annoying utility) What champions have you been trying to play? Lucian is an okay choice for aggro adc because of his low cd dash to escape those TP situations but you better be damn good at him.
Been playing a lot of Lucian, some Sivir, and resorted to Ezreal a couple of games.
Lucian is super good during lane, but I suck late game with his short range. Sivir has been working pretty well because ult, and late game richochet. Ezreal is nice because its very hard to die, but I feel like it's a lot harder to get kills during the lane phase with him; also his damage is bonkers once you get your core
I might pick up Jhin, or Kog, I'm seeing those two having a lot of success. Might even try dusting off the Twitch.. It's not that I hate passive farm, I just think 2v2 fights are really fun
Thanks a lot for all of your answers! Very helpful
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I saw on probuilds all kindreds switching to Fervor when a few weeks ago Sota was still common across the board. Any reason for that?
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On April 21 2016 21:23 AsnSensation wrote:
I saw on probuilds all kindreds switching to Fervor when a few weeks ago Sota was still common across the board. Any reason for that?
Runaans became a big thing on her and that + Fervor = a brazillion damage.
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On April 21 2016 15:18 RagequitBM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 05:37 VayneAuthority wrote:On April 21 2016 05:04 RagequitBM wrote:
Decided to start up the solo grind after finishing my finals, and how do you play bot in this meta?
Back in S5 I remember if I was better than their duo I could pound them, and deny farm or even kill them.. But in this meta I take two steps passed my minion lane and there's their jungler, and a double TP. Is there really nothing you can do as ADC to impact the game? Feels like every game is over in 15 minute because one of your solo laners have 5 kills, or their solo laner has 5 kills.
I've only played 10 games, and I might just be bad because I took a 4 month break, but does anyone have any tips on how to play bot lane now? It can't just be passive farm and hope that your team breaks even or wins.. Pretty much, the more successful ADC in solo q atm are hyper carries. Kog, twitch, jhin all good examples. If passively farming in lane isnt really your style, utility ADCs are also good right now ( i see sivir as your pic) Sivir, ashe, ezreal (I put him more in this category because his waveclear/poke/kiting are all basically annoying utility) What champions have you been trying to play? Lucian is an okay choice for aggro adc because of his low cd dash to escape those TP situations but you better be damn good at him. Been playing a lot of Lucian, some Sivir, and resorted to Ezreal a couple of games. Lucian is super good during lane, but I suck late game with his short range. Sivir has been working pretty well because ult, and late game richochet. Ezreal is nice because its very hard to die, but I feel like it's a lot harder to get kills during the lane phase with him; also his damage is bonkers once you get your core I might pick up Jhin, or Kog, I'm seeing those two having a lot of success. Might even try dusting off the Twitch.. It's not that I hate passive farm, I just think 2v2 fights are really fun Thanks a lot for all of your answers! Very helpful
Have you tried giving Kalista a shot? Cait might be another option. Both have to be played very interactive with the opponents, so while you might no be getting kills and outright fighting a lot it's probably much more to your liking than the boring farmfest. 
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Ezreal is nice because its very hard to die, but I feel like it's a lot harder to get kills during the lane phase with him; also his damage is bonkers once you get your core
Wouldn't quite agree with that, if you play a good Ezreal you can harass the enemy player out of lane. Also snowballs nicely I would say, not super hard, but if you come back with an early Sheen, up to lv 6 or so the enemy ADC can get zoned pretty hard.
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Been playing a lot of jungle Taric.
I think its pretty legit. His first clear is hella mana-gated, but once you finish that he his real strong, actually. I've been running full Flat Mana Regen Blues. I think these are required. Not sure about the other runes, been using AS Quints and AD reds, but i want to do some benchmark testing. Might be able to get away with Runspeed quints and AS reds.
QEWEER, R>E>W>Q
I like Q as a skill better than W, but you want to keep the mana-cost at 60 instead of having it increase with levels as in the jungle you basically spam it to keep your passive up.
He farms fast, and safe. Between the passive (AS & onhit), the shield, and the heal, you are basically golden. In the jungle you just use Q to proc your passive all day. You just manage skills so you have near 100% uptime on your Passive, similar to Lee-Sin: W-auto-auto E-auto-auto Q-auto-auto etc. I think EWQing camps is most effective, but at the end of the day I think it doesn't make too much of a difference. You will kill the camp quickly and at full health.
Ganks are strong. You basically are guaranteed a kill if you land the stun. Easy to land the stun if your laner is paying any attention. You basically can dive any tower you want. Feels good.
From what I can tell, you can play Taric as a carry, or as a support style jungle. I've had success with both. Taric Likes Iceborn a lot, might be greedy to buy it though. Not sure. Farmed with items you kind of feel like Warwick or Shyvana in a back line when / if you get there, with Iceborn you stick hard, easy to land E after an auto, and you dont die because you basically get 400 HP per 2 seconds from Q, and you have R. Its kind of nice, if you are getting fed you are a huge threat, but you can also just play a control style game where you apply map pressure and dont get any gold for yourself. Feels viable either way. I'm sure rageblade would be sweet too. Maybe even devourer.... :O Havn't tried it though.
Obviously you can also just babysit your carries. You might be able to do both, to be honest. W your carry, then you keeping yourself alive and diving their carry. Probably depends on the fight. I only have like 10 games under my belt, but it feels good.
Could be just me, but I think he is a top tier jungle pick right now. Try it out. That being said, I have only played like 30 games this season, and am climbing hard, so it might be less Taric and more I'm a league or so lower than I should be. Not sure.
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Australia18228 Posts
On April 21 2016 21:23 AsnSensation wrote:
I saw on probuilds all kindreds switching to Fervor when a few weeks ago Sota was still common across the board. Any reason for that?
I looked her up one or two patches ago and Fervor was already popular on her. Just works well with the Devourer/Hurricane build
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Does Taric win the award for most half assed remakes
this is like his fourth iteration>?
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Skarner and Ryze are also pretty high on that list.
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well the one previous to this one didn't really change anything but his passive, and made all his skills scale really poorly with points but well with gold. Not sure if I'd call that a rework but Riot might have.
it would really tickle me if he ended up being a beast in a role other than support.
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On April 22 2016 01:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
Does Taric win the award for most half assed remakes
this is like his fourth iteration>?
Wtf.
New Taric is awesome.
<_<
You guys are just not jungling him. Theres you problem.
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On April 22 2016 01:17 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 01:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
Does Taric win the award for most half assed remakes
this is like his fourth iteration>? Wtf. New Taric is awesome. <_< You guys are just not jungling him. Theres you problem.
Seems to be a general trend with Rito reworks: if it doesn't work in lane anymore, jungle it.
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On April 21 2016 21:23 AsnSensation wrote:
I saw on probuilds all kindreds switching to Fervor when a few weeks ago Sota was still common across the board. Any reason for that?
Fervor in general is just superior to what sota gives u right now. Fervor jax, ww and yi jung is very common atm.
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Just pulled a Spirit Guard Udyr on yesterday's 5 hextech pack (975 RP). Also came with Nightmare Tyrndamere (cool skin) and Lollypoppy. Last week's pack, I pulled Project Yi, and Omega Squad Teemo.
Pretty damn happy so far.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On April 22 2016 01:52 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 01:17 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2016 01:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
Does Taric win the award for most half assed remakes
this is like his fourth iteration>? Wtf. New Taric is awesome. <_< You guys are just not jungling him. Theres you problem. Seems to be a general trend with Rito reworks: if it doesn't work in lane anymore, jungle it.
Here are the last 20 gameplay reworks. Which one are you thinking of when you say that the "general trend" of Rito reworks make them junglers?
Taric - jury's still out on that
Shen - mostly top
Poppy - mostly top
Skarner - jungler before and after
Mordekaiser - nowhere
Garen - top
Darius - top
Fiora - top
Miss Fortune - ADC
Gangplank - top
Ashe - ADC
Ryze - mid/top
Veigar - mid
Zilean - mid
Tristana - ADC
Sion - mostly top
Viktor - mid
Soraka - support
Cassiopeia - mid
Sona - support
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Who is supposed to win Irelia vs Darius?
I feel like Irelia should win, but i just watched an Irelia die 5 times to Darius.
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On April 22 2016 02:55 iCanada wrote:
Who is supposed to win Irelia vs Darius?
I feel like Irelia should win, but i just watched an Irelia die 5 times to Darius.
The higher the skill level the better irelia is at it
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At the same time and Darius matchup into a melee will end up super binary.
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On April 22 2016 01:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
Does Taric win the award for most half assed remakes
this is like his fourth iteration>?
oh I beg to differ he brings the whole package
I don't know what you're talking about this is the first taric remake
everything else was just changing his numbers and how his ult works
On April 22 2016 02:55 iCanada wrote:
Who is supposed to win Irelia vs Darius?
I feel like Irelia should win, but i just watched an Irelia die 5 times to Darius.
pretty tough if it snowballs you get fucked but you can also snowball on him.
If you push early you're fucked. He can literally just kill you at level 5 because of how strong his passive at 5 stacks is. If you're close to tower you can trade by hopping on a creep especially if he uses q.
Once you have your serrated dirk and level 6 you can basically try to one shot him, or engage smartly and q out to a creep. The issue is you can't fuck up an all-in because he can hook you back in and also be wary of him kiting you with his Q to avoid damage, and deal q enhanced damage+insane heal
you basically need to kill him before he hits 5 stacks unless you get QSS. (which wont work when they change it)
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He's had his passive remade, his ult remade, his E drastically changed and I think his W changed before. And they weren't just changing numbers, they changed scalings and stat scalings. I distinctly remember Riot calling them reworks as well.
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he was still always press R at some point, E W some random guy heal someone and auto when everythings on cd
changing that he scales more off armour instead of base stats doesn't change too much
his old passive was garbage LOL you gained mana based on your auto damgae
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Right, I'm not saying they were revolutionary or anything. On the contrary, we were discussing how half-assed the reworks were. But this was not his first rework, that was the whole topic of discussion.
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On April 22 2016 03:40 Slayer91 wrote:
he was still always press R at some point, E W some random guy
This describes like 90% of the champions in the game. Maybe they can throw a Q in there too? ..
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i mean stun and w for the armour debuff then have auras and a heal
its pretty unique to taric and hasnt changed really at all
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On April 22 2016 04:19 Slayer91 wrote:
i mean stun and w for the armour debuff then have auras and a heal
its pretty unique to taric and hasnt changed really at all
Being able to use other people to increase stun range is a pretty big fucking deal. Champ is definitely very different. Don't see how is the remake half assed at all tbh.
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no i agree the remake isn't half assed pretty close to a new champ
the other ones weren't remakes is what im saying
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regardless of whatever he is, we weren't given what they promised. He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play. This new taric is without a doubt top 10 hardest kits in game to properly play. How they missed the mark so far is beyond me
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On April 22 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
regardless of whatever he is, we weren't given what they promised. He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play. This new taric is without a doubt top 10 hardest kits in game to properly play. How they missed the mark so far is beyond me
Top 3 hardest to realize his full potential tbh at worst
I never got the impression he was supposed to stay faceroll though.
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That's actually a really good point, now there is no real "starter support" champion that I can think of. Maybe Alistar but that still takes some general knowledge of the game. New taric is definitely not noob friendly like the old one.
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On April 22 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play.
More emphasis on "was", less on "is". The whole point of the rework was to make him less basic point/click and more healthy in the greater scope of League's road map. Riot made mention of that numerous times during Taric's development.
On April 22 2016 04:39 nafta wrote:
Annie and soraka I'd add Nami into that list. She might not be as great in high Elo where the mechanical, playmaking supports shine, but her kit is pretty straightforward. Only hard part about her is actually landing her Q, but it's pretty simple to understand and use and the rest of her kit (poke/heal/buff/cc) is very easy to execute.
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But annie is a lot closer to the quintessential mid/mage pick, and soraka is way too squishy and actually requires a decent amount of awareness and skill. Again, old soraka would be a much better suit. No skillshots, a larger heal, free mana or free damage.
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On April 22 2016 04:39 nafta wrote:
Annie and soraka
I think they mean melee supports.
That said, I don't care; Love that new jungle Taric. My new main for sure.
Always dive, never not dive.
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On April 22 2016 04:39 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play. More emphasis on "was", less on "is". The whole point of the rework was to make him less basic point/click and more healthy in the greater scope of League's road map. Riot made mention of that numerous times during Taric's development. I'd add Nami into that list. She might not be as great in high Elo where the mechanical, playmaking supports shine, but her kit is pretty straightforward. Only hard part about her is actually landing her Q, but it's pretty simple to understand and use and the rest of her kit (poke/heal/buff/cc) is very easy to execute.
Nami is garbage if you don't land bubble. Soraka is pure faceroll pls. Annie isn't complete but is decent if you are a bonobo.
braum/alistar/trundle all have pretty low skill floors
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On April 22 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
regardless of whatever he is, we weren't given what they promised. He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play. This new taric is without a doubt top 10 hardest kits in game to properly play. How they missed the mark so far is beyond me
since when do rito care about difficulty wat
if you want a beginner support pick janna or soraka
taric was garbage as a beginner support because he was basically just garbage LOL
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On April 22 2016 04:52 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 04:39 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play. More emphasis on "was", less on "is". The whole point of the rework was to make him less basic point/click and more healthy in the greater scope of League's road map. Riot made mention of that numerous times during Taric's development. On April 22 2016 04:39 nafta wrote:
Annie and soraka I'd add Nami into that list. She might not be as great in high Elo where the mechanical, playmaking supports shine, but her kit is pretty straightforward. Only hard part about her is actually landing her Q, but it's pretty simple to understand and use and the rest of her kit (poke/heal/buff/cc) is very easy to execute. Nami is garbage if you don't land bubble. Soraka is pure faceroll pls. Annie isn't complete but is decent if you are a bonobo. braum/alistar/trundle all have pretty low skill floors
Some people are convinced you need to be able to WQ combo to play Ali properly.
I quite frankly disagree. I think a top tier Ali player can do it, but the champion itself is awesome without it. Lots of times its better to just not WQ combo. Same with Lee Sin and insec kicks; To be frank, i think people have always uderestimated how good it is to kick a diving bruiser off of your carry.
Quite frankly, all I play is bruisers, and since season 1, I can barely recall being kicked off an ADC by a Lee. That can win fights all on its own. Forget the extra damage and the knockup, it was hella good before they added either. LOL. People get so tunneled on insecing or WQ'ing. Dont need to do that shit.
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just because sometimes you don't want to WQ/lee insec doesn't mean you get like 2x more kills if you can pull it off
not doing wq on alistar is like just having a short range malph ult and never using it
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If you can't combo as alistar after the last change you probably don't have a functioning hand
You haven't seen lee kick away bruisers cuz you play with trash players
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
This is an interesting discussion - how would you rank the 25 supports in the game on difficulty. I'm talking skill floor here, not ceiling; i.e., how much practice do you need to have on the champ before you're not a liability to the team, not how much practice do you need to hard carry your teams.
Here's a quick rough guesstimate:
Thresh
Vel'Koz
Zyra
Bard
Taric
Nami
Annie
Blitzcrank
Zilean
Lulu
Leona
Karma
Nautilus
Lux
Brand
Trundle
Braum
Alistar
Poppy
Soraka
Shen
Tahm Kench
Morgana
Janna
Sona
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sona hardest support if you play like me and try to assassinate adcs in teamfights
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Depends on the meta and skill level of players in game. Because a lot of champs are very easy to play in some teamcomps vs others but hard otherwise.
Say thresh really is pretty fucking easy if enemy doesn't have good engage and you just have to protect your carry but actually making aggro plays can be difficult.
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You forgot aurelion sol. He is top 3 for supports where he can either make your lane 1v3 if he has no idea what hes doing or be a pretty solid support on an experienced player
im going to go with blitz/bard/aurelion sol.
If you can't hit hook, you're literally useless.
bad bard players are cancer and can 1v9 lose the game by themselves. Roaming at wrong times, cant hit Qs, bad ults, often overextend in lane and die since hes super squishy, etc
aurelion sol because he passively pushes if you arent careful, have to know his 2 sphere ranges by heart to be effective, have to hit your stun, etc.
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On April 22 2016 04:39 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play. More emphasis on "was", less on "is". The whole point of the rework was to make him less basic point/click and more healthy in the greater scope of League's road map. Riot made mention of that numerous times during Taric's development. I'd add Nami into that list. She might not be as great in high Elo where the mechanical, playmaking supports shine, but her kit is pretty straightforward. Only hard part about her is actually landing her Q, but it's pretty simple to understand and use and the rest of her kit (poke/heal/buff/cc) is very easy to execute.
Could you link to where you saw that? I saw multiple riot posts on their forum saying they intended to keep him as one of the "simpler" to play supports
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On April 22 2016 04:52 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 04:39 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play. More emphasis on "was", less on "is". The whole point of the rework was to make him less basic point/click and more healthy in the greater scope of League's road map. Riot made mention of that numerous times during Taric's development. On April 22 2016 04:39 nafta wrote:
Annie and soraka I'd add Nami into that list. She might not be as great in high Elo where the mechanical, playmaking supports shine, but her kit is pretty straightforward. Only hard part about her is actually landing her Q, but it's pretty simple to understand and use and the rest of her kit (poke/heal/buff/cc) is very easy to execute. Nami is garbage if you don't land bubble. Soraka is pure faceroll pls. Annie isn't complete but is decent if you are a bonobo. braum/alistar/trundle all have pretty low skill floors
Interesting, I'd consider Braum/Ali having a higher skill floor than Nami. Braum especially; he's in the category I described as "mechanical, playmaking support". His Q is a skillshot, his W is a dash that requires some thought on good positioning, his E gets misdirected all the time by low mechanical players, and his ult is another skillshot on top of being a zoning tool (which requires some knowledge on positioning to utilize particularly well beyond a point-blank knockup scenario).
Nami, in comparison, is point/click for her W and E, and her ult is just a huge ass wave -- choose your general direction and fire, it'll cover a good portion of the lane. I agree her power drops considerably if you don't land Q, but that's mostly applicable as you rise in Elo (I did mention she's not as great there). I've seen bad Braums and bad Namis (I'm talking playing with Bronze V friends, here), and I'd take the bad Nami pretty much every time.
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Well it depends on what skills you consider harder overall. I honestly haven't played normals or ranked below a mid gold level in >2 years so maybe my thoughts on bad players don't align with today's reality.
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On April 22 2016 05:28 nafta wrote:
Well it depends on what skills you consider harder overall. I honestly haven't played normals or ranked below a mid gold level in >2 years so maybe my thoughts on bad players don't align with today's reality.
I did a recent silver to diamond, basically they learned how to lane.
Full retard after that
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On April 22 2016 05:21 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 04:39 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play. More emphasis on "was", less on "is". The whole point of the rework was to make him less basic point/click and more healthy in the greater scope of League's road map. Riot made mention of that numerous times during Taric's development. On April 22 2016 04:39 nafta wrote:
Annie and soraka I'd add Nami into that list. She might not be as great in high Elo where the mechanical, playmaking supports shine, but her kit is pretty straightforward. Only hard part about her is actually landing her Q, but it's pretty simple to understand and use and the rest of her kit (poke/heal/buff/cc) is very easy to execute. Could you link to where you saw that? I saw multiple riot posts on their forum saying they intended to keep him as one of the "simpler" to play supports
Here's one example from 2013. Small excerpt from the post:
Scarizard said:
What this means, is in his current state he won't get worse - but he ain't gettin' better. We'd need to do some deeper refactoring on Taric to find ways to add more actual counterplay/gameplay in his kit, and hopefully get him feeling like that playmaking/hero support (Even Alistar/Soraka, lesser played supports have these epic moments of feeling like you're moving mountains for your teammates)
In short, more playmaking/counterplay, less "basic point/click" in his kit. That doesn't mean he couldn't have been one of the "more basic" champs, but that's not the final result nor one of the core goals they were reiterating throughout Taric's development.
On April 22 2016 05:28 nafta wrote:
Well it depends on what skills you consider harder overall. I honestly haven't played normals or ranked below a mid gold level in >2 years so maybe my thoughts on bad players don't align with today's reality.
Yeah, at that Elo or higher I'd agree: Braum over Nami every time. Braum support's lane presence, skillshot competency, and playmaking are all a step above once you reach that level. That said, we were talking about "entry level" supports, and mid-Gold certainly isn't "entry level".
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A worrying trend for players like me that only enjoy point and click champs, which happens to be really only most really old champs. I feel like my champ pool shrinks every year as opposed to getting bigger even with all the new champ releases.
If i make the right choice I want to 100% be able to calculate my damage, playing minigames and skillshot games or whatever is pretty lame if thats what they fully want to turn the game into
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On April 22 2016 05:43 VayneAuthority wrote:
A worrying trend for players like me that only enjoy point and click champs, which happens to be really only most really old champs. I feel like my champ pool shrinks every year as opposed to getting bigger even with all the new champ releases.
If i make the right choice I want to 100% be able to calculate my damage, playing minigames and skillshot games or whatever is pretty lame if thats what they fully want to turn the game into
I don't think they're going to get rid of point/click as a concept, just on things where it should be harder to succeed (like a stun or other form of hard CC, etc.). When they re-did Tristana, she remained 100% point/click for example, because it made sense for her kit; her damage on E is dependent on subsequent auto stacking (also point/click).
Taric is also remaining generally point/click with exception of Dazzle -- which is, coincidentally, a stun.
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On April 22 2016 05:48 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 05:43 VayneAuthority wrote:
A worrying trend for players like me that only enjoy point and click champs, which happens to be really only most really old champs. I feel like my champ pool shrinks every year as opposed to getting bigger even with all the new champ releases.
If i make the right choice I want to 100% be able to calculate my damage, playing minigames and skillshot games or whatever is pretty lame if thats what they fully want to turn the game into I don't think they're going to get rid of point/click as a concept, just on things where it should be harder to succeed (like a stun or other form of hard CC, etc.). When they re-did Tristana, she remained 100% point/click for example, because it made sense for her kit; her damage on E is dependent on subsequent auto stacking (also point/click). Taric is also remaining generally point/click with exception of Dazzle -- which is, coincidentally, a stun.
Well there is a pretty long list of champs they have ruined for me with their reworks so I don't really trust them. Here is my list
Ruined reworks for me -
fiora, gangplank, mordekaiser, poppy, skarner, skarner, skarner, skarner, taric, veigar, and soon to be new vlad (sooo clunky to play unless they make drastic changes)
reworks that made the champ I play more enjoyable
Ashe, sivir, nasus (somewhat), master yi, trundle.
So yea not everything they touch turns to shit but a lot of it does. And obviously I dont see power as being better, new gangplank, fiora, poppy, morde are all extreme cancer and worse then their originals design wise imo.
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On April 22 2016 05:36 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 05:21 VayneAuthority wrote:On April 22 2016 04:39 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play. More emphasis on "was", less on "is". The whole point of the rework was to make him less basic point/click and more healthy in the greater scope of League's road map. Riot made mention of that numerous times during Taric's development. On April 22 2016 04:39 nafta wrote:
Annie and soraka I'd add Nami into that list. She might not be as great in high Elo where the mechanical, playmaking supports shine, but her kit is pretty straightforward. Only hard part about her is actually landing her Q, but it's pretty simple to understand and use and the rest of her kit (poke/heal/buff/cc) is very easy to execute. Could you link to where you saw that? I saw multiple riot posts on their forum saying they intended to keep him as one of the "simpler" to play supports Here's one example from 2013. Small excerpt from the post: Show nested quote +Scarizard said:
What this means, is in his current state he won't get worse - but he ain't gettin' better. We'd need to do some deeper refactoring on Taric to find ways to add more actual counterplay/gameplay in his kit, and hopefully get him feeling like that playmaking/hero support (Even Alistar/Soraka, lesser played supports have these epic moments of feeling like you're moving mountains for your teammates) In short, more playmaking/counterplay, less "basic point/click" in his kit. That doesn't mean he couldn't have been one of the "more basic" champs, but that's not the final result nor one of the core goals they were reiterating throughout Taric's development. Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 05:28 nafta wrote:
Well it depends on what skills you consider harder overall. I honestly haven't played normals or ranked below a mid gold level in >2 years so maybe my thoughts on bad players don't align with today's reality. Yeah, at that Elo or higher I'd agree: Braum over Nami every time. Braum support's lane presence, skillshot competency, and playmaking are all a step above once you reach that level. That said, we were talking about "entry level" supports, and mid-Gold certainly isn't "entry level".
Tbh reaching mid gold for any player who has played another game competitively should be relatively easy if you put in effort in your first season or at worst start of second season.
League skill level is by far the lowest I have seen of any game I have ever played. Obviously has to do with how popular it is.
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On April 22 2016 05:48 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 05:43 VayneAuthority wrote:
A worrying trend for players like me that only enjoy point and click champs, which happens to be really only most really old champs. I feel like my champ pool shrinks every year as opposed to getting bigger even with all the new champ releases.
If i make the right choice I want to 100% be able to calculate my damage, playing minigames and skillshot games or whatever is pretty lame if thats what they fully want to turn the game into I don't think they're going to get rid of point/click as a concept, just on things where it should be harder to succeed (like a stun or other form of hard CC, etc.). When they re-did Tristana, she remained 100% point/click for example, because it made sense for her kit; her damage on E is dependent on subsequent auto stacking (also point/click). Taric is also remaining generally point/click with exception of Dazzle -- which is, coincidentally, a stun.
Ahh. But hard CC is the part where having point and click is arguably the most important. Its basically the counter to "mobility" If you wanted to take point and click off something it should be a huge damage spell like Brand ult or a simplistic, mindless, harass like Elise Q.
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Not sure the new ones or worse or you just notice it because they get played.
As it stands taric seems about as mechanically simple as he was. And definitely as simple as Sona. He has one ability you set on an ally and forget (the first w) and then three that you self cast (q,w,r) and one linear skillshot that you can move while channeling so if you do press not quite the right direction you can still walk to land it.
You no longer have/need the more complicated ability weaves of the old champion because q resets so fast and because the timing is easier with two autos as a visual/auditory aid and the bonus AS makes it harder to accidentally cancel them. (E-2AA-Q-2AA-W-2AA-Q-2AA -> e should be close to ready)
What taric can be is structurally complicated to play (as opposed to say Karma where you just mantra E someone and w the closest target) because you're melee and have to know movement angles. Like Janna where timing the ult is what is hard rather than mechanical proficiency. (Can you press q twice?! Congrats you can Janna)
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I don't get this bloodthirsty meme for low elo. Every time I have played on gold or lower(very rare but still) unless I engage everybody is just afk.
The biggest shitfests I have played at is easily d1/low master. It is incredibly rare to not have 2 kills per minute.
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Yup. Still remember boosting in silver/gold in s4 and me having to engage as syndra while we have malph/leona almost every game.
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On April 22 2016 06:06 VayneAuthority wrote:
Ruined reworks for me -
fiora, gangplank, mordekaiser, poppy, skarner, skarner, skarner, skarner, taric, veigar, and soon to be new vlad (sooo clunky to play unless they make drastic changes)
Poppy rework is one of my favourites. If I'm banished to the top lane, I always try to grab her. I'm also liking the Taric rework, but I'll agree that Morde and Skarner were disasters IMO, because they feel so gimmicky now.
On April 22 2016 06:14 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 05:36 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 05:21 VayneAuthority wrote:On April 22 2016 04:39 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
He was/is supposed to be the quintessential beginner melee support and very simple to play. More emphasis on "was", less on "is". The whole point of the rework was to make him less basic point/click and more healthy in the greater scope of League's road map. Riot made mention of that numerous times during Taric's development. On April 22 2016 04:39 nafta wrote:
Annie and soraka I'd add Nami into that list. She might not be as great in high Elo where the mechanical, playmaking supports shine, but her kit is pretty straightforward. Only hard part about her is actually landing her Q, but it's pretty simple to understand and use and the rest of her kit (poke/heal/buff/cc) is very easy to execute. Could you link to where you saw that? I saw multiple riot posts on their forum saying they intended to keep him as one of the "simpler" to play supports Here's one example from 2013. Small excerpt from the post: Scarizard said:
What this means, is in his current state he won't get worse - but he ain't gettin' better. We'd need to do some deeper refactoring on Taric to find ways to add more actual counterplay/gameplay in his kit, and hopefully get him feeling like that playmaking/hero support (Even Alistar/Soraka, lesser played supports have these epic moments of feeling like you're moving mountains for your teammates) In short, more playmaking/counterplay, less "basic point/click" in his kit. That doesn't mean he couldn't have been one of the "more basic" champs, but that's not the final result nor one of the core goals they were reiterating throughout Taric's development. On April 22 2016 05:28 nafta wrote:
Well it depends on what skills you consider harder overall. I honestly haven't played normals or ranked below a mid gold level in >2 years so maybe my thoughts on bad players don't align with today's reality. Yeah, at that Elo or higher I'd agree: Braum over Nami every time. Braum support's lane presence, skillshot competency, and playmaking are all a step above once you reach that level. That said, we were talking about "entry level" supports, and mid-Gold certainly isn't "entry level". Tbh reaching mid gold for any player who has played another game competitively should be relatively easy if you put in effort in your first season or at worst start of second season. League skill level is by far the lowest I have seen of any game I have ever played. Obviously has to do with how popular it is.
I don't see how that has any relevancy to anything. The type of person you're describing (like me, who switched over from being a Masters SC2 player) isn't really "entry level". The fact that we migrated from being competitive in another RTS game pretty much precludes us from being considered "entry". I started off playing supports like Thresh, because "entry level" supports were too simplistic and easy to execute for my liking.
On April 22 2016 06:16 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 05:48 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 05:43 VayneAuthority wrote:
A worrying trend for players like me that only enjoy point and click champs, which happens to be really only most really old champs. I feel like my champ pool shrinks every year as opposed to getting bigger even with all the new champ releases.
If i make the right choice I want to 100% be able to calculate my damage, playing minigames and skillshot games or whatever is pretty lame if thats what they fully want to turn the game into I don't think they're going to get rid of point/click as a concept, just on things where it should be harder to succeed (like a stun or other form of hard CC, etc.). When they re-did Tristana, she remained 100% point/click for example, because it made sense for her kit; her damage on E is dependent on subsequent auto stacking (also point/click). Taric is also remaining generally point/click with exception of Dazzle -- which is, coincidentally, a stun. Ahh. But hard CC is the part where having point and click is arguably the most important. Its basically the counter to "mobility" If you wanted to take point and click off something it should be a huge damage spell like Brand ult or a simplistic, mindless, harass like Elise Q. I disagree, and clearly so does Riot. Hard CC can basically be a death sentence if you're caught against a competent opposing team. Something like Brand ult... you just run away from things that would bounce it back to you. Key thing there is that regardless of the ability, you as a player should be able to do something to play around it beyond simply saying "never go anywhere near them". I think the only class that should be allowed to break this rule currently is assassins, since their whole purpose is to delete a target if they can get in range. Taric isn't an assassin.
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On April 22 2016 05:00 nafta wrote:
If you can't combo as alistar after the last change you probably don't have a functioning hand
You haven't seen lee kick away bruisers cuz you play with trash players
I'm, not saying its not good, I'm saying Alistar is a good champ even if you just dont do it. You should do it, I'm just saying you can win games and play very well without it.
No really, since Insec became a thing, people just stopped doing it. But you're right, it could be because I've went from an ~1850 ELO player back then to a gold player now, so I do play with trash players. However, I can't even recall a memorable kick in pro-play though since Insec.
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On April 22 2016 07:49 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 05:00 nafta wrote:
If you can't combo as alistar after the last change you probably don't have a functioning hand
You haven't seen lee kick away bruisers cuz you play with trash players I'm, not saying its not good, I'm saying Alistar is a good champ even if you just dont do it. You should do it, I'm just saying you can win games and play very well without it. No really, since Insec became a thing, people just stopped doing it. But you're right, it could be because I've went from an ~1850 ELO player back then to a gold player now, so I do play with trash players. However, I can't even recall a memorable kick in pro-play though since Insec.
there was one in nalcs i want to say it was rush or dardoch had a nice kick in midlane or smething
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On April 22 2016 08:00 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 07:49 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2016 05:00 nafta wrote:
If you can't combo as alistar after the last change you probably don't have a functioning hand
You haven't seen lee kick away bruisers cuz you play with trash players I'm, not saying its not good, I'm saying Alistar is a good champ even if you just dont do it. You should do it, I'm just saying you can win games and play very well without it. No really, since Insec became a thing, people just stopped doing it. But you're right, it could be because I've went from an ~1850 ELO player back then to a gold player now, so I do play with trash players. However, I can't even recall a memorable kick in pro-play though since Insec. there was one in nalcs i want to say it was rush or dardoch had a nice kick in midlane or smething
Rush setup up some pretty dirty kills with kick for/with Jensen a couple of times.
Skill floor for supports in my opinion:
Thresh/Bard
<random ordering of the rest depending on comps>
Blitz/Soraka
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On April 22 2016 06:48 nafta wrote:
I don't get this bloodthirsty meme for low elo. Every time I have played on gold or lower(very rare but still) unless I engage everybody is just afk.
The biggest shitfests I have played at is easily d1/low master. It is incredibly rare to not have 2 kills per minute.
Its not necessarily bloodthirsty its just directionless. No one has any clue of what objectives are up and when they can be taken. People fight over 30 minute second dragons like its the fifth. People chase when they could take towers.
Not that this doesn't happen in high MMR, but it happens less. Its one of the reasons it can be so hard to climb as a support. You cannot support a team that will not go to the objectives when they're up.
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On April 22 2016 10:20 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 06:48 nafta wrote:
I don't get this bloodthirsty meme for low elo. Every time I have played on gold or lower(very rare but still) unless I engage everybody is just afk.
The biggest shitfests I have played at is easily d1/low master. It is incredibly rare to not have 2 kills per minute. Its not necessarily bloodthirsty its just directionless. No one has any clue of what objectives are up and when they can be taken. People fight over 30 minute second dragons like its the fifth. People chase when they could take towers. Not that this doesn't happen in high MMR, but it happens less. Its one of the reasons it can be so hard to climb as a support. You cannot support a team that will not go to the objectives when they're up.
The worst is when you get sucked into it. There's a big stalemate in mid and you find yourself as support in bot lane taking the wave of 20 minions because, by golly, somebody should take these and if nobody wants to then it might as well be me.
Then your team dies because the support wasn't there and you took too long to clear the wave.
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On April 22 2016 10:31 JimmiC wrote:
The reason its hard to climb under any roll is you are not good enough. There is plenty of every roll high in ladder. And those people can constantly get there.
That is not what i mean by "hard". I should have said 'takes longer'. Because much of your impact relies on your teammates doing what they should if your team is not then you cannot have as much of an impact.
Not necessarily in terms of "getting farm" but things like running away from the shields in team fights or not being with the team for an important fight. If you're Janna and you have no ADC to peel for in a fight because they're running down bot lane to farm a wave at the river then it doesn't matter how good a Janna you are. This makes play at low levels a lot more random if you're a support, because force multipliers don't do anything when there is no force to multiply.
Good at vision? May not really matter because in bronze probably the biggest problem people have is that they don't look at the map.
That doesn't mean you won't climb, it just means it might not happen as fast.
This is anecdotal, but i have made the climb from Silver to Plat twice so far as a support main[OK, so not at plat yet this season but i will be]. And each time getting over the gold hump took a lot of games but getting to plat from gold was a breeze. Gold 5 to gold 2? 30 games. Silver 2 50lp to Gold 5? 117
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I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support.
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On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support.
Did you que dodge a lot? If not, how much sanity did you lose having to lane with terrible adcs?
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played a game as vayne recently against a taric+kayle lineup
that shit is fking cancer
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Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 07:44 iamcaustic wrote:
Taric is also remaining generally point/click with exception of Dazzle -- which is, coincidentally, a stun. Ahh. But hard CC is the part where having point and click is arguably the most important. Its basically the counter to "mobility" If you wanted to take point and click off something it should be a huge damage spell like Brand ult or a simplistic, mindless, harass like Elise Q. I disagree, and clearly so does Riot. Hard CC can basically be a death sentence if you're caught against a competent opposing team. Something like Brand ult... you just run away from things that would bounce it back to you. Key thing there is that regardless of the ability, you as a player should be able to do something to play around it beyond simply saying "never go anywhere near them". I think the only class that should be allowed to break this rule currently is assassins, since their whole purpose is to delete a target if they can get in range. Taric isn't an assassin.
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog.
As an aside to the Easiest to play supports topic as a Nami player I disagree with her being so low. Ok so I know that it was very clear that skill ceiling is irrelevant and Floor is the only thing to be considered but I simply put out the argument that if you are just spamming W as Nami you are just playing a less mana efficient Sona, and you aren't a whole lot less squishy. I also think the skill floor for when and who to use E on is not as low as implied, the skill is actually quite useless and often forgotten in the hands of bad Nami players.
to me all ranged supports with heals or shields come first on the list just because where to stand as a melee support seems to be confusing to new/bad support players, but I would put Karma/Sona/Soraka/Janna before Nami just because they provide at least 2 retard proof non ultimate spells instead of 1.
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On April 22 2016 14:53 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support. Did you que dodge a lot? If not, how much sanity did you lose having to lane with terrible adcs?
You can't carry them all, but if they suck don't die for them. Just get them to level 6 or 7, ward his lane and then go roam. You need somebody to carry the game, and if that someone isn't the ADC, then you help jungler or mid or even top if you can.
Nami you have to be aggressive and trade because her healing is a lot better than sona's. You can E after autos go out and have it proc, so no point in precasting the E because it gives the enemy a window to respond to trades. I think she's really strong in soloq atm simply because winning lane hard gets you so much.
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On April 22 2016 14:53 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support. Did you que dodge a lot? If not, how much sanity did you lose having to lane with terrible adcs?
I'd say "pick Fiddle" but it doesn't work since they nerfed Terrify's range (and the crows' potential got nerfed twice too). Zoning people with crows then baiting them into a bad trade once you had a couple points into Terrify, then zoning them from the bushes post-6 with a pink... or just buying boots and roaming mid for kills.
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On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support.
You definitely can and I wasn't trying to imply you cannot. But at lower mmrs it's "harder" in that fewer games are within your control unless you're so mechanically superior that you can just kill the enemy lane over and over again(and ideally you're on a Mage so it's kind of like playing mid). If you're not then you still go up because games that aren't in your control you win 50% of and games that are you win greater than 50% on. But if fewer games are in your control then you go up slower.
Fewer games are in the supports control at low mmr (especially peel based supports)
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On April 22 2016 16:32 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support. You definitely can and I wasn't trying to imply you cannot. But at lower mmrs it's "harder" in that fewer games are within your control unless you're so mechanically superior that you can just kill the enemy lane over and over again(and ideally you're on a Mage so it's kind of like playing mid). If you're not then you still go up because games that aren't in your control you win 50% of and games that are you win greater than 50% on. But if fewer games are in your control then you go up slower. Fewer games are in the supports control at low mmr (especially peel based supports)
At lower elo, I'd definitely put a lot less faith in my adc and probably pick damage supports.
The best supports to carry yourself up change as you get better at the game and your teammates deal more and more damage with what they're given.
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On April 22 2016 16:32 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 14:19 Amui wrote:
I got to diamond playing almost exclusively support so it's not like you can't carry from support. You definitely can and I wasn't trying to imply you cannot. But at lower mmrs it's "harder" in that fewer games are within your control unless you're so mechanically superior that you can just kill the enemy lane over and over again(and ideally you're on a Mage so it's kind of like playing mid). If you're not then you still go up because games that aren't in your control you win 50% of and games that are you win greater than 50% on. But if fewer games are in your control then you go up slower. Fewer games are in the supports control at low mmr (especially peel based supports)
People elo boost from all roles but support for a reason. Mata will have to play differently if you put him in low elo. Thats why they all play stuff like blitzcrank so you can hard carry easiest if your just better
edit: also yeah, even build paths for support change. At higher elo you get less gold and its not worth you building full ap or something
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I pretty much went to Plat off of Braum and Maokai (post-nerf, last season, so full tank Maokai with only double dring and AP quints as damage)...
Sometimes it's not about carrying yourself when you can identify somebody that'll do it for you and just keep him alive no matter what.
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anyone here plays poppy after the nerfs? i want to main her now that shes open every game but im clueless vs most ranged matchups, E range seems super low and even when i do decent in lane my winrate on her isnt as good as on other champions, how am i supposed to lane vs something like kayle assuming hes not stupid to get charged into a wall.
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I played support for most of my LoL tryhard days. I dodged any game where my AD wasn't an AD main or didn't have a pretty good record for the role.
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On April 22 2016 22:50 ticklishmusic wrote:
I played support for most of my LoL tryhard days. I dodged any game where my AD wasn't an AD main or didn't have a pretty good record for the role.
what a tryhard
Although not gonna lie the only reason I started playing ad in s3 was because playing support in low elo was rather annoying lol
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Well I was also mostly a scumbag duoQ. We ran Draven + Morgana and a bunch of other stuff that was insanely strong with even minimal coordination. I jungled a lot too.
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On April 22 2016 22:18 JimmiC wrote:
People who think they constantly get caught with bad whatevers are probably just missing what they are doing wrong. There are bad whatevers on the other team, it's a odd psycology that almost everyone hold and lower, he'll, might just be almost everyone thinks they are the best on their team and need to carry. Most of the successful people Esspecially from the support role realize that they need to do what ever it takes to make their teammates successful and through that they will win.
Your taking a mentality statement too literally. Support is unique in that it is far more sensitive to bad team-mates also for example excellent warding matter less because your team can't take advantage. You can't consistently carry from support, it has nothing to mentality, its caked into the role. Obviously you can climb.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
It's not a binary thing, like you "can" or "cannot" carry as a support.
It's just a gradient. Faker could get out of Bronze playing nothing but AP Nunu mid, but it'd be a lot harder for an average player to do that compared to playing Annie or Fizz. Similarly, a genuinely good player can climb low elo as a support, it'll just take longer on average than if he played other roles.
Besides, by definition, one of the five roles has to be the hardest to climb with overall. And overall, that role is probably going to be support for most players. It's not a bad thing, just a reflection that the most team-oriented role is going to be subject to more variance than less team-oriented roles.
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On April 23 2016 00:35 JimmiC wrote:
If by carry you mean you can't win every game, but that is same as most rolls. I mean you can climb fast. Basically you just need to outperform the other support consistently.
And you could just pick another role and climb even faster if you are truly better than everyone else.
Which role is hardest to carry with does change as you get higher but in lower leagues support is garbage compared to the others.
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that assumes you're pretty good at other roles as well. i'm diamond-level for jungle and support, but pretty as a midlaner i'm basically bronze except for on a couple champs
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On April 23 2016 00:50 ticklishmusic wrote:
that assumes you're pretty good at other roles as well. i'm diamond-level for jungle and support, but pretty as a midlaner i'm basically bronze except for on a couple champs
Well ye depends how lower than your elo you go.
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On April 23 2016 00:37 GrandInquisitor wrote:
It's not a binary thing, like you "can" or "cannot" carry as a support.
It's just a gradient. Faker could get out of Bronze playing nothing but AP Nunu mid, but it'd be a lot harder for an average player to do that compared to playing Annie or Fizz. Similarly, a genuinely good player can climb low elo as a support, it'll just take longer on average than if he played other roles.
Besides, by definition, one of the five roles has to be the hardest to climb with overall. And overall, that role is probably going to be support for most players. It's not a bad thing, just a reflection that the most team-oriented role is going to be subject to more variance than less team-oriented roles.
Read what people are saying. Nobody is claiming a binary carry or can't. Claims of the later would give nonsense. Faker could get to high/mid diamond (definitely on NA, low diamond on KR) playing ap mid nunu, pretty sure random players have gotten diamond with ap zed. Again nobody is claiming you can't claim elo as a support.
Finally, you use a false analogy. A finite set one must have a the lower bound but is is not true they can't all have the same qualities. Support plays very differently at top level vs low level. People elo boost/smurf with high win-rates 80+% with every other role but never with support.
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Generally most people don't play support while boosting until plat as far as I know. Only then if they are a group the annie/zyra/w.e spam begins.
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On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog.
Any reason you flash before starting to cast Dazzle on the new kit? You can move while Dazzle is playing out its delay, just time flash so you land the stun before Trist can react. If she jumps pre-emptively, then you still keep your flash and successfully bullied the enemy ADC, on top of being able to do the same thing again once Dazzle is off CD.
TBH I think this is more of a case of personal mechanics than a supposed loss of Taric's ability to lock down mobile champs with a flash/stun.
On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
As an aside to the Easiest to play supports topic as a Nami player I disagree with her being so low. Ok so I know that it was very clear that skill ceiling is irrelevant and Floor is the only thing to be considered but I simply put out the argument that if you are just spamming W as Nami you are just playing a less mana efficient Sona, and you aren't a whole lot less squishy. I also think the skill floor for when and who to use E on is not as low as implied, the skill is actually quite useless and often forgotten in the hands of bad Nami players.
to me all ranged supports with heals or shields come first on the list just because where to stand as a melee support seems to be confusing to new/bad support players, but I would put Karma/Sona/Soraka/Janna before Nami just because they provide at least 2 retard proof non ultimate spells instead of 1.
You're speaking about personal preference, which is fine, but it's not an argument for/against general ease of use. Sona brings a number of different things to the table than Nami does.
Nami's heal is stronger and not much more mana expensive than Sona's (what you get for the cost is much more efficient overall), plus the heal doubles as poke, which Sona has to do separately. That said, if only poking (no sustain needed), Sona is indeed much more mana efficient when it comes to raw damage. Then there's Nami's E, which has a much different use case than Sona's. Finally, their ults are worlds apart in terms of what they bring to a team comp. Yasuo on your team? I'd take Nami over Sona, for example.
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this is one of those topics that has been beaten to death. If you're good, you'll climb as any role. if you aren't you, you won't.
not much else to it. a lot of people pick troll supports in low elo so its actually really easy to climb as support.
id say unless you are playing an assassin, the hardest role to climb is mid since a lot of smurfs pick that role and its pretty hard to punish there. (aka why roamers are good low elo)
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On April 23 2016 02:23 VayneAuthority wrote:
this is one of those topics that has been beaten to death. If you're good, you'll climb as any role. if you aren't you, you won't.
not much else to it. a lot of people pick troll supports in low elo so its actually really easy to climb as support.
id say unless you are playing an assassin, the hardest role to climb is mid since a lot of smurfs pick that role and its pretty hard to punish there. (aka why roamers are good low elo)
i think mid and jungle are the easiest to climb on
for mid if you are stronger you kill them and deep ward then roam.
if you are weaker you defensively ward and roam.
if you are good you can punish people regardless of if they are a smurf or not
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On April 23 2016 02:41 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 02:23 VayneAuthority wrote:
this is one of those topics that has been beaten to death. If you're good, you'll climb as any role. if you aren't you, you won't.
not much else to it. a lot of people pick troll supports in low elo so its actually really easy to climb as support.
id say unless you are playing an assassin, the hardest role to climb is mid since a lot of smurfs pick that role and its pretty hard to punish there. (aka why roamers are good low elo)
i think mid and jungle are the easiest to climb on
Case and point Apdo used to main mid/jungle because these were the roles that had the most influence to hard cary. And he ended up maining middle. Like best elo boosting champion in the game is TF who is both a mid laner and is not an assassin.
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Support is the worst role to carry with in low elo because
1: ADCs are bad and will get caught so they aren't that strong
2: Intentionally playing a non-snowballing and don't farm any gold in an elo where most people are doing that anyway isn't good LOL
you'll climb but slightly lo
the higher you get the more winning your lane and other lanes will snowball the game and you can trust your adc a bit more
you shouldn't get mad laning with adc you just play the hand you're dealt and if going 0/0/0 is the best possible way to play with a terrible adc you should be proud to get 0/0/0
expecting your adc to be good as as bad as expecting your jungler to gank a lot
its just going to make you mad and play worse and it will make you play like they are doing something they are not
for carrying low elo it should be pretty obvious that jungle>mid>top>adc>support
but adc might be better than top sometimes it depends
that said most people blaming this tier list for not winning a lot aren't really good enough to be carrying low elos LOL
higher elos top might be the worst and mid/adc are a lot better depending on what champs are good mid
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On April 23 2016 02:41 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 02:23 VayneAuthority wrote:
this is one of those topics that has been beaten to death. If you're good, you'll climb as any role. if you aren't you, you won't.
not much else to it. a lot of people pick troll supports in low elo so its actually really easy to climb as support.
id say unless you are playing an assassin, the hardest role to climb is mid since a lot of smurfs pick that role and its pretty hard to punish there. (aka why roamers are good low elo)
i think mid and jungle are the easiest to climb on for mid if you are stronger you kill them and deep ward then roam. if you are weaker you defensively ward and roam. if you are good you can punish people regardless of if they are a smurf or not
I think you might be biased since you main mid though.
I agree completely that jungle is by far the easiest to climb low elo though its not even close. its all about decsion making which is what they lack the most. TF is basically a jungler in his own right and obvs i count him as an assassin when he roams like crazy and can 100-0 people easily if ahead.
I play all 5 roles pretty equally and ive done plenty of accounts thanks to lyte so these are just my observations. mid never felt that impactful to me unless you are of course playing the tf, fizz, kats of the world
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On April 23 2016 03:12 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 02:41 Frolossus wrote:On April 23 2016 02:23 VayneAuthority wrote:
this is one of those topics that has been beaten to death. If you're good, you'll climb as any role. if you aren't you, you won't.
not much else to it. a lot of people pick troll supports in low elo so its actually really easy to climb as support.
id say unless you are playing an assassin, the hardest role to climb is mid since a lot of smurfs pick that role and its pretty hard to punish there. (aka why roamers are good low elo)
i think mid and jungle are the easiest to climb on for mid if you are stronger you kill them and deep ward then roam. if you are weaker you defensively ward and roam. if you are good you can punish people regardless of if they are a smurf or not I think you might be biased since you main mid though. I agree completely that jungle is by far the easiest to climb low elo though its not even close. its all about decsion making which is what they lack the most. TF is basically a jungler in his own right and obvs i count him as an assassin when he roams like crazy and can 100-0 people easily if ahead. I play all 5 roles pretty equally and ive done plenty of accounts thanks to lyte so these are just my observations. mid never felt that impactful to me unless you are of course playing the tf, fizz, kats of the world
It is a very common opinion. Jungle is probably better this season because of meta but mid has historically been the best.
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On April 23 2016 01:32 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog. Any reason you flash before starting to cast Dazzle on the new kit? You can move while Dazzle is playing out its delay, just time flash so you land the stun before Trist can react. If she jumps pre-emptively, then you still keep your flash and successfully bullied the enemy ADC, on top of being able to do the same thing again once Dazzle is off CD. TBH I think this is more of a case of personal mechanics than a supposed loss of Taric's ability to lock down mobile champs with a flash/stun.
No its not. Hitting skillshots is only partially mechanics. Its also about mindgames, and more importantly, the mobility of the champion you are trying to hit. Basically here is a scenario that best exemplifies the difference:
You midlane Ori is having a bit of a tough time against her Zed opponent. He initiates a dive on her with deathmark right as you are pathing between mid towers 1 & 2. Zed, seeing his mistake, re-pressers R going back to his shadow. Point and click Taric's stun follows him (and actually gets stronger if I recall) and your Ori and you can now punish this ill advised dive. Skillshot Taric misses the stun almost every time.
Now why is that important? Because both those stuns are going to work really well against Talon doing that to your Ori, or an Udyr, or a Xin. So the point and click skill is more "mobility neutral" which means it takes away some of the advantages of mobility, which is so undervalued by Riot that most of the strongest characters have dashes or blinks in their kits and basically everyone takes flash.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Yeah, no kidding, a point-and-click skill shot will follow a Zed dash and a skillshot will miss. I think we all could figure that one out on our own.
But that doesn't mean the new skillshot necessarily helps mobile champs. Everything in League has tradeoffs. Here, the tradeoff is that Taric's Dazzle range now has a far longer reach with his W, and the channel time can be nullified by accurately predicting how the mobile champ uses his mobility. In your example, with new Taric, maybe Zed starts the dive but then is stunned right as he comes out of his R. By contrast, an immobile champion either should not be getting in range of Dazzle or has other ways of dealing with close-range cc.
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On April 23 2016 03:29 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 01:32 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog. Any reason you flash before starting to cast Dazzle on the new kit? You can move while Dazzle is playing out its delay, just time flash so you land the stun before Trist can react. If she jumps pre-emptively, then you still keep your flash and successfully bullied the enemy ADC, on top of being able to do the same thing again once Dazzle is off CD. TBH I think this is more of a case of personal mechanics than a supposed loss of Taric's ability to lock down mobile champs with a flash/stun. No its not. Hitting skillshots is only partially mechanics. Its also about mindgames, and more importantly, the mobility of the champion you are trying to hit. Basically here is a scenario that best exemplifies the difference: You midlane Ori is having a bit of a tough time against her Zed opponent. He initiates a dive on her with deathmark right as you are pathing between mid towers 1 & 2. Zed, seeing his mistake, re-pressers R going back to his shadow. Point and click Taric's stun follows him (and actually gets stronger if I recall) and your Ori and you can now punish this ill advised dive. Skillshot Taric misses the stun almost every time. Now why is that important? Because both those stuns are going to work really well against Talon doing that to your Ori, or an Udyr, or a Xin. So the point and click skill is more "mobility neutral" which means it takes away some of the advantages of mobility, which is so undervalued by Riot that most of the strongest characters have dashes or blinks in their kits and basically everyone takes flash.
... Are you actually going to get off a flash/stun in that kind of scenario on old Taric's kit, though? This seems like an incredible edge case at best.
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On April 23 2016 03:59 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Yeah, no kidding, a point-and-click skill shot will follow a Zed dash and a skillshot will miss. I think we all could figure that one out on our own.
But that doesn't mean the new skillshot necessarily helps mobile champs. Everything in League has tradeoffs. Here, the tradeoff is that Taric's Dazzle range now has a far longer reach with his W, and the channel time can be nullified by accurately predicting how the mobile champ uses his mobility. In your example, with new Taric, maybe Zed starts the dive but then is stunned right as he comes out of his R. By contrast, an immobile champion either should not be getting in range of Dazzle or has other ways of dealing with close-range cc.
The point clutz is trying to make, is having a point and click skillshot in the game is a countermeasure to shit like Leblanc and Zed flying all over the place. Removing all cc in the game that is good at tracking down these champions just broadens their advantage over the Brands of the world.
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most champs with point blank skills are weak because its easy to make them op because everything is undodgeable
its possible to have op champs who have skillshots but theres more obvious counterplay
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I like that Riot is addressing this in a way, adding stuff like new poppy w and Cassio w, they also added a new status effect for cassio's w so it could be used in the future. I mean in the end stuff like this might be more elegant than the old "they got AM, grab some point and click" but in the short term it does feel like the tools are limited.
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On April 23 2016 04:26 Slayer91 wrote:
most champs with point blank skills are weak because its easy to make them op because everything is undodgeable
its possible to have op champs who have skillshots but theres more obvious counterplay
Thing is point and click skills can have counterplay in how their used or the ability of the opponents to force them out so they tend to be more punishing than skillshot abilities that are generally more spammy. Issue is when Riot makes point and click abilities that are just as spammy as skillshot ones.
On April 23 2016 04:35 Slusher wrote:
I like that Riot is addressing this in a way, adding stuff like new poppy w and Cassio w, they also added a new status effect for cassio's w so it could be used in the future. I mean in the end stuff like this might be more elegant than the old "they got AM, grab some point and click" but in the short term it does feel like the tools are limited.
I like the Cassio stuff but I do wonder if it's trying to fix a problem they created by trying to fix another problem which may just spiral into them now trying to deal with the new problem they created. Man that sentence kind of flopped while I was writing. Hope you get the gist of it.
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On April 23 2016 03:29 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 01:32 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog. Any reason you flash before starting to cast Dazzle on the new kit? You can move while Dazzle is playing out its delay, just time flash so you land the stun before Trist can react. If she jumps pre-emptively, then you still keep your flash and successfully bullied the enemy ADC, on top of being able to do the same thing again once Dazzle is off CD. TBH I think this is more of a case of personal mechanics than a supposed loss of Taric's ability to lock down mobile champs with a flash/stun. No its not. Hitting skillshots is only partially mechanics. Its also about mindgames, and more importantly, the mobility of the champion you are trying to hit. Basically here is a scenario that best exemplifies the difference: You midlane Ori is having a bit of a tough time against her Zed opponent. He initiates a dive on her with deathmark right as you are pathing between mid towers 1 & 2. Zed, seeing his mistake, re-pressers R going back to his shadow. Point and click Taric's stun follows him (and actually gets stronger if I recall) and your Ori and you can now punish this ill advised dive. Skillshot Taric misses the stun almost every time. Now why is that important? Because both those stuns are going to work really well against Talon doing that to your Ori, or an Udyr, or a Xin. So the point and click skill is more "mobility neutral" which means it takes away some of the advantages of mobility, which is so undervalued by Riot that most of the strongest characters have dashes or blinks in their kits and basically everyone takes flash.
Having played quite a bit of Taric, you can W your Ori, then attempt to cut him off and aim your E so that you have his deathmark location and where he currently is. It is like Pix with a delay. That being said, that depends on him not having W available and your laner paying attention to Dazzle. I think your example is kind of loaded, no way anyone is ganking a Zed for their Ori and getting a successful kill unless Zed is full retard.
You're right, you lose some things in the switch. But you also gain a lot. In fights before Taric was good for one stun, then fuck all. I have had teamfights where due to people being worried about other shit, I just straight up stunned 4 players on the other team with Dazzle. Taric is a team-fighting god right now, in almost every comp. Doesn't matter if you want to dive or if other team wants to dive, or who you want to protect. You have a cute as fuck Sona ult you get to use 3 times in a fight. You also get Kindred ult that doesn't keep your opponents alive, and that the teammate your wish to save can't derp and walk out of.
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On April 23 2016 04:35 Slusher wrote:
I like that Riot is addressing this in a way, adding stuff like new poppy w and Cassio w, they also added a new status effect for cassio's w so it could be used in the future. I mean in the end stuff like this might be more elegant than the old "they got AM, grab some point and click" but in the short term it does feel like the tools are limited.
That is actually a terrible sign, because it means the counter to mobility is going to be picking certain champs, which is exactly what you dont want, besides for LCS I guess.
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On April 23 2016 03:59 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Yeah, no kidding, a point-and-click skill shot will follow a Zed dash and a skillshot will miss. I think we all could figure that one out on our own.
But that doesn't mean the new skillshot necessarily helps mobile champs. Everything in League has tradeoffs. Here, the tradeoff is that Taric's Dazzle range now has a far longer reach with his W, and the channel time can be nullified by accurately predicting how the mobile champ uses his mobility. In your example, with new Taric, maybe Zed starts the dive but then is stunned right as he comes out of his R. By contrast, an immobile champion either should not be getting in range of Dazzle or has other ways of dealing with close-range cc.
I'm not saying that new Dazzle is worse or better than old dazzle. I will say that comparatively its usefulness vs. Immobile/Mobile champs is now weighted more towards usefulness against Immobile. I mean, in your example the Taric somehow anticipated the dive, prepped Dazzle, Flash>W'd his ally. That is an amazing play, well deserving of the reward of a Zed under tower. But it is also a play that makes Madlife Thresh-Hook-Party-Lantern look like a drunk Bronze 3 player.
On April 23 2016 04:00 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 03:29 cLutZ wrote:On April 23 2016 01:32 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog. Any reason you flash before starting to cast Dazzle on the new kit? You can move while Dazzle is playing out its delay, just time flash so you land the stun before Trist can react. If she jumps pre-emptively, then you still keep your flash and successfully bullied the enemy ADC, on top of being able to do the same thing again once Dazzle is off CD. TBH I think this is more of a case of personal mechanics than a supposed loss of Taric's ability to lock down mobile champs with a flash/stun. No its not. Hitting skillshots is only partially mechanics. Its also about mindgames, and more importantly, the mobility of the champion you are trying to hit. Basically here is a scenario that best exemplifies the difference: You midlane Ori is having a bit of a tough time against her Zed opponent. He initiates a dive on her with deathmark right as you are pathing between mid towers 1 & 2. Zed, seeing his mistake, re-pressers R going back to his shadow. Point and click Taric's stun follows him (and actually gets stronger if I recall) and your Ori and you can now punish this ill advised dive. Skillshot Taric misses the stun almost every time. Now why is that important? Because both those stuns are going to work really well against Talon doing that to your Ori, or an Udyr, or a Xin. So the point and click skill is more "mobility neutral" which means it takes away some of the advantages of mobility, which is so undervalued by Riot that most of the strongest characters have dashes or blinks in their kits and basically everyone takes flash. ... Are you actually going to get off a flash/stun in that kind of scenario on old Taric's kit, though? This seems like an incredible edge case at best.
Its not really an edge case at all. You can see it all the time with Lissandra ult (which doesn't even have a travel time!) and Maokai root in pro games where the guy hilariously appears half a screen away with a big ice crystal or angry tree on top of them. It remains one of Ryze's great strengths that he can just root and bop any assassin that tries to sneak around on him (he used to be many moons ago the #1 Ahri counter because of this).
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On April 23 2016 04:55 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 03:59 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Yeah, no kidding, a point-and-click skill shot will follow a Zed dash and a skillshot will miss. I think we all could figure that one out on our own.
But that doesn't mean the new skillshot necessarily helps mobile champs. Everything in League has tradeoffs. Here, the tradeoff is that Taric's Dazzle range now has a far longer reach with his W, and the channel time can be nullified by accurately predicting how the mobile champ uses his mobility. In your example, with new Taric, maybe Zed starts the dive but then is stunned right as he comes out of his R. By contrast, an immobile champion either should not be getting in range of Dazzle or has other ways of dealing with close-range cc. I'm not saying that new Dazzle is worse or better than old dazzle. I will say that comparatively its usefulness vs. Immobile/Mobile champs is now weighted more towards usefulness against Immobile. I mean, in your example the Taric somehow anticipated the dive, prepped Dazzle, Flash>W'd his ally. That is an amazing play, well deserving of the reward of a Zed under tower. But it is also a play that makes Madlife Thresh-Hook-Party-Lantern look like a drunk Bronze 3 player. Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 04:00 iamcaustic wrote:On April 23 2016 03:29 cLutZ wrote:On April 23 2016 01:32 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog. Any reason you flash before starting to cast Dazzle on the new kit? You can move while Dazzle is playing out its delay, just time flash so you land the stun before Trist can react. If she jumps pre-emptively, then you still keep your flash and successfully bullied the enemy ADC, on top of being able to do the same thing again once Dazzle is off CD. TBH I think this is more of a case of personal mechanics than a supposed loss of Taric's ability to lock down mobile champs with a flash/stun. No its not. Hitting skillshots is only partially mechanics. Its also about mindgames, and more importantly, the mobility of the champion you are trying to hit. Basically here is a scenario that best exemplifies the difference: You midlane Ori is having a bit of a tough time against her Zed opponent. He initiates a dive on her with deathmark right as you are pathing between mid towers 1 & 2. Zed, seeing his mistake, re-pressers R going back to his shadow. Point and click Taric's stun follows him (and actually gets stronger if I recall) and your Ori and you can now punish this ill advised dive. Skillshot Taric misses the stun almost every time. Now why is that important? Because both those stuns are going to work really well against Talon doing that to your Ori, or an Udyr, or a Xin. So the point and click skill is more "mobility neutral" which means it takes away some of the advantages of mobility, which is so undervalued by Riot that most of the strongest characters have dashes or blinks in their kits and basically everyone takes flash. ... Are you actually going to get off a flash/stun in that kind of scenario on old Taric's kit, though? This seems like an incredible edge case at best. Its not really an edge case at all. You can see it all the time with Lissandra ult (which doesn't even have a travel time!) and Maokai root in pro games where the guy hilariously appears half a screen away with a big ice crystal or angry tree on top of them. It remains one of Ryze's great strengths that he can just root and bop any assassin that tries to sneak around on him (he used to be many moons ago the #1 Ahri counter because of this).
I wouldn't say his usefulness is scaled towards immoble champions. There are just edge cases where in a gank you can't CC them, pretty much just Zed, LB, and Ahri. You could add Fizz as well, but a good Fizz could Fizzle a Dazzle easily before.
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On April 23 2016 04:55 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 04:00 iamcaustic wrote:On April 23 2016 03:29 cLutZ wrote:On April 23 2016 01:32 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog. Any reason you flash before starting to cast Dazzle on the new kit? You can move while Dazzle is playing out its delay, just time flash so you land the stun before Trist can react. If she jumps pre-emptively, then you still keep your flash and successfully bullied the enemy ADC, on top of being able to do the same thing again once Dazzle is off CD. TBH I think this is more of a case of personal mechanics than a supposed loss of Taric's ability to lock down mobile champs with a flash/stun. No its not. Hitting skillshots is only partially mechanics. Its also about mindgames, and more importantly, the mobility of the champion you are trying to hit. Basically here is a scenario that best exemplifies the difference: You midlane Ori is having a bit of a tough time against her Zed opponent. He initiates a dive on her with deathmark right as you are pathing between mid towers 1 & 2. Zed, seeing his mistake, re-pressers R going back to his shadow. Point and click Taric's stun follows him (and actually gets stronger if I recall) and your Ori and you can now punish this ill advised dive. Skillshot Taric misses the stun almost every time. Now why is that important? Because both those stuns are going to work really well against Talon doing that to your Ori, or an Udyr, or a Xin. So the point and click skill is more "mobility neutral" which means it takes away some of the advantages of mobility, which is so undervalued by Riot that most of the strongest characters have dashes or blinks in their kits and basically everyone takes flash. ... Are you actually going to get off a flash/stun in that kind of scenario on old Taric's kit, though? This seems like an incredible edge case at best. Its not really an edge case at all. You can see it all the time with Lissandra ult (which doesn't even have a travel time!) and Maokai root in pro games where the guy hilariously appears half a screen away with a big ice crystal or angry tree on top of them. It remains one of Ryze's great strengths that he can just root and bop any assassin that tries to sneak around on him (he used to be many moons ago the #1 Ahri counter because of this).
Your argument against your "taric flash/stun on a diving/ulting Zed that wants to bail after seeing taric" example being an incredible (and highly unlikely, IMO) edge case is... describing entirely different champions and scenarios? Okay then. Nobody is debating whether point/click root is, conceptually, good at shutting down assassins or not.
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On April 23 2016 05:09 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 04:55 cLutZ wrote:On April 23 2016 04:00 iamcaustic wrote:On April 23 2016 03:29 cLutZ wrote:On April 23 2016 01:32 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog. Any reason you flash before starting to cast Dazzle on the new kit? You can move while Dazzle is playing out its delay, just time flash so you land the stun before Trist can react. If she jumps pre-emptively, then you still keep your flash and successfully bullied the enemy ADC, on top of being able to do the same thing again once Dazzle is off CD. TBH I think this is more of a case of personal mechanics than a supposed loss of Taric's ability to lock down mobile champs with a flash/stun. No its not. Hitting skillshots is only partially mechanics. Its also about mindgames, and more importantly, the mobility of the champion you are trying to hit. Basically here is a scenario that best exemplifies the difference: You midlane Ori is having a bit of a tough time against her Zed opponent. He initiates a dive on her with deathmark right as you are pathing between mid towers 1 & 2. Zed, seeing his mistake, re-pressers R going back to his shadow. Point and click Taric's stun follows him (and actually gets stronger if I recall) and your Ori and you can now punish this ill advised dive. Skillshot Taric misses the stun almost every time. Now why is that important? Because both those stuns are going to work really well against Talon doing that to your Ori, or an Udyr, or a Xin. So the point and click skill is more "mobility neutral" which means it takes away some of the advantages of mobility, which is so undervalued by Riot that most of the strongest characters have dashes or blinks in their kits and basically everyone takes flash. ... Are you actually going to get off a flash/stun in that kind of scenario on old Taric's kit, though? This seems like an incredible edge case at best. Its not really an edge case at all. You can see it all the time with Lissandra ult (which doesn't even have a travel time!) and Maokai root in pro games where the guy hilariously appears half a screen away with a big ice crystal or angry tree on top of them. It remains one of Ryze's great strengths that he can just root and bop any assassin that tries to sneak around on him (he used to be many moons ago the #1 Ahri counter because of this). Your argument against your "taric flash/stun on a diving/ulting Zed that wants to bail after seeing taric" example being an incredible (and highly unlikely, IMO) edge case is... describing entirely different champions and scenarios? Okay then. Nobody is debating whether point/click root is, conceptually, good at shutting down assassins or not.
You understand the concept of an example right? That "edge case" is actually just the best example that came to mind at the time. For picks its equally important. Hitting a Lucian with old dazzle is a matter of getting in range, with new dazzle you will miss against competent Lucians unless they facecheck or are otherwise restricted by terrain/other skillshots. Teamfights are more complicated and messy, so its hard to say what exactly. IMO new dazzle is stronger in teamfights because of the potential to stun multiple people. But those people are more likely to be tanks or immobile carries than mobile carries.
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On April 23 2016 05:40 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 05:09 iamcaustic wrote:On April 23 2016 04:55 cLutZ wrote:On April 23 2016 04:00 iamcaustic wrote:On April 23 2016 03:29 cLutZ wrote:On April 23 2016 01:32 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 15:07 Slusher wrote:
Not as opposition to your point but for clarity you are missing what he is saying. an example, I'm playing old taric in two games back to back. In game 1 the enemy adc is kog'maw in game 2 it's Tristana. in both games I catch the enemy adc away from their team with a flash Dazzle while their flash is down. With old Taric both die (trist still gets her jump distance before the stun lands but lets say she was really out of position for the example.). With new Taric Kog still dies 9 times out of 10 but Trist has a very real chance at getting away. By removing point and click you give heros with mobility even greater chance to survive without much of an improvement for slow heros like Kog. Any reason you flash before starting to cast Dazzle on the new kit? You can move while Dazzle is playing out its delay, just time flash so you land the stun before Trist can react. If she jumps pre-emptively, then you still keep your flash and successfully bullied the enemy ADC, on top of being able to do the same thing again once Dazzle is off CD. TBH I think this is more of a case of personal mechanics than a supposed loss of Taric's ability to lock down mobile champs with a flash/stun. No its not. Hitting skillshots is only partially mechanics. Its also about mindgames, and more importantly, the mobility of the champion you are trying to hit. Basically here is a scenario that best exemplifies the difference: You midlane Ori is having a bit of a tough time against her Zed opponent. He initiates a dive on her with deathmark right as you are pathing between mid towers 1 & 2. Zed, seeing his mistake, re-pressers R going back to his shadow. Point and click Taric's stun follows him (and actually gets stronger if I recall) and your Ori and you can now punish this ill advised dive. Skillshot Taric misses the stun almost every time. Now why is that important? Because both those stuns are going to work really well against Talon doing that to your Ori, or an Udyr, or a Xin. So the point and click skill is more "mobility neutral" which means it takes away some of the advantages of mobility, which is so undervalued by Riot that most of the strongest characters have dashes or blinks in their kits and basically everyone takes flash. ... Are you actually going to get off a flash/stun in that kind of scenario on old Taric's kit, though? This seems like an incredible edge case at best. Its not really an edge case at all. You can see it all the time with Lissandra ult (which doesn't even have a travel time!) and Maokai root in pro games where the guy hilariously appears half a screen away with a big ice crystal or angry tree on top of them. It remains one of Ryze's great strengths that he can just root and bop any assassin that tries to sneak around on him (he used to be many moons ago the #1 Ahri counter because of this). Your argument against your "taric flash/stun on a diving/ulting Zed that wants to bail after seeing taric" example being an incredible (and highly unlikely, IMO) edge case is... describing entirely different champions and scenarios? Okay then. Nobody is debating whether point/click root is, conceptually, good at shutting down assassins or not. You understand the concept of an example right? That "edge case" is actually just the best example that came to mind at the time. For picks its equally important. Hitting a Lucian with old dazzle is a matter of getting in range, with new dazzle you will miss against competent Lucians unless they facecheck or are otherwise restricted by terrain/other skillshots. Teamfights are more complicated and messy, so its hard to say what exactly. IMO new dazzle is stronger in teamfights because of the potential to stun multiple people. But those people are more likely to be tanks or immobile carries than mobile carries.
You can restrict Lucian with terrain and teammates Dazzle.
Dazzle is likely one of the easiest skillshots to land in the game right now. You use it from two different angles, its quick, its goes through minions. It is awkward as hell to dodge.
Its easier and faster to land than Glitter Lance, and it has basically the same mechanics.
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On April 23 2016 04:22 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 03:59 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Yeah, no kidding, a point-and-click skill shot will follow a Zed dash and a skillshot will miss. I think we all could figure that one out on our own.
But that doesn't mean the new skillshot necessarily helps mobile champs. Everything in League has tradeoffs. Here, the tradeoff is that Taric's Dazzle range now has a far longer reach with his W, and the channel time can be nullified by accurately predicting how the mobile champ uses his mobility. In your example, with new Taric, maybe Zed starts the dive but then is stunned right as he comes out of his R. By contrast, an immobile champion either should not be getting in range of Dazzle or has other ways of dealing with close-range cc. The point clutz is trying to make, is having a point and click skillshot in the game is a countermeasure to shit like Leblanc and Zed flying all over the place. Removing all cc in the game that is good at tracking down these champions just broadens their advantage over the Brands of the world.
I think the answer is more point and click zone cc effects. Sorakas silence is the strongest counter to LB and zed that I know of at the moment. Oh you ulted my carry? My carry is now standing in a silence zone. Coincidentally you are now standing in a silence zone!
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I actually think it is a beast move. That its amazing and easy to hit (for a skillshot CC) is really not the point. Its about how targeted CC "chases" better against dashes.
Ya'll are like the kids who would say their wheat bread PB&J is just as good.
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Maybe it's because I have my spell effects toned down but I'm having a really hard time seeing Taric's new particles and spell animations. Last night, I had a game where he ulted and I had no idea what his ult was looking like until I noticed they were taking no damage.
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On April 23 2016 07:13 KissBlade wrote:
Maybe it's because I have my spell effects toned down but I'm having a really hard time seeing Taric's new particles and spell animations. Last night, I had a game where he ulted and I had no idea what his ult was looking like until I noticed they were taking no damage.
They're even worse with spell effects turned up everything is just fucking shiny sparkles. I'm pretty sure most pros play on low graphics for this reason, so you see more of the base ability and less random shiny shit
On April 23 2016 04:51 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 04:35 Slusher wrote:
I like that Riot is addressing this in a way, adding stuff like new poppy w and Cassio w, they also added a new status effect for cassio's w so it could be used in the future. I mean in the end stuff like this might be more elegant than the old "they got AM, grab some point and click" but in the short term it does feel like the tools are limited. That is actually a terrible sign, because it means the counter to mobility is going to be picking certain champs, which is exactly what you dont want, besides for LCS I guess.
Yea, I think with the focus of the game shifting away from a solo q warrior being able to just shitstomp his opponent and completely conquer the game to more being forced to play with your team and around objectives, the fact that if you draft poorly in matchmade games you're extra punished really goes against the whole "the pick/ban phase shouldn't matter" bullshit Riot was spewing the last few years. In S2/S3, picking appropriate champs was still beneficial, but you could make up for it with just sheer individual influence on the game, and that's really toned down so now if your team doesn't really have a cohesive draft you gotta just play the montecristo "pick comp" strats.
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im really not sure the game has shifted much from "solo play" (whatever that means) at all
you can still snowball the game alone and you still won't be able to 1v5 or even 1v2 in many cases
if you're 10-0 you dont care who has mobility because at best case they just dont die to you, if anything point and click spells are more dangerous because they can more easily force focus you if you're fed
a solo q warrior is basically just a regular warrior whens the last time someone garbage at solo q was good at anything in competitive play
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On April 23 2016 05:40 cLutZ wrote:
You understand the concept of an example right? That "edge case" is actually just the best example that came to mind at the time.
Your "concept" is well outside the scope of discussing Taric's kit and his personal ability to lock down mobile champions, which was the original conversation you jumped into. This is why I said, and I'll quote myself here:
On April 23 2016 05:09 iamcaustic wrote:
Nobody is debating whether point/click root is, conceptually, good at shutting down assassins or not.
If you're going to join a conversation, try to keep on topic.
On April 23 2016 05:40 cLutZ wrote:
Hitting a Lucian with old dazzle is a matter of getting in range, with new dazzle you will miss against competent Lucians unless they facecheck or are otherwise restricted by terrain/other skillshots. Teamfights are more complicated and messy, so its hard to say what exactly. IMO new dazzle is stronger in teamfights because of the potential to stun multiple people. But those people are more likely to be tanks or immobile carries than mobile carries.
Good, back to Taric's Dazzle. Your absolute declaration that "you will miss against competent Lucians" makes it woefully apparent that you haven't played Taric against Lucian. Between the mechanical difference in how flash/stun is now executed (which was already covered) and the fact that a Lucian will oftentimes dash forward to burst trade against your ADC (which means he won't have it to dash away from your reactive Dazzle), you already have a couple of examples where Lucian's dash won't save him from being stunned. There's a lot of other details at play (like your Bastion buddy's ability to help zone a Lucian with his Dazzle to the point it's a guaranteed stun for one of you) that provide a new dynamic in landing the ability against more mobile champs that simply didn't exist in the old kit.
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If you start casting Dazzle and then bond to a target before it goes off, will it cast from them as well?
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On April 23 2016 09:04 Requizen wrote:
If you start casting Dazzle and then bond to a target before it goes off, will it cast from them as well?
No.
Its like glitterlance. You need your target bonded first.
That being said, the bond lats forever. You could W your ADC, then clear your whole jungle, gank top, then gank bot again and it will still be on your ADC. Assuming when you gank top you dont W your Laner. (which you wouldn't, but thats not the point.)
When you Jungle Taric, cute trick is to W someone when they in base, then you can gank for them later more epiditiously with less required setup before you can corner someone with double dazzle.
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On April 23 2016 11:08 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 09:04 Requizen wrote:
If you start casting Dazzle and then bond to a target before it goes off, will it cast from them as well? No. Its like glitterlance. You need your target bonded first. That being said, the bond lats forever. You could W your ADC, then clear your whole jungle, gank top, then gank bot again and it will still be on your ADC. Assuming when you gank top you dont W your Laner. (which you wouldn't, but thats not the point.) When you Jungle Taric, cute trick is to W someone when they in base, then you can gank for them later more epiditiously with less required setup before you can corner someone with double razzle dazzle.
FTFY
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whats enjoyable about urf
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On April 23 2016 09:04 Requizen wrote:
If you start casting Dazzle and then bond to a target before it goes off, will it cast from them as well?
I'm actually going to test this out... I'm very curious as well. Haven't ever tried it in reverse order. My gut hypothesis would be "no", though.
EDIT: Oh there were new posts while I was idle... apparently iCanada answers this for us.
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On April 23 2016 11:41 suicideyear wrote:
whats enjoyable about urf
nothing unless you're bronze/silver. Its literally just mashing buttons like a chimpanzee.
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Depends. If you play something obnoxious like jayce+ez and start a camp you can steamroll multiple turrets before they figure out you can end the game by doing that.
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Urf is very fun for role playing certain champions as they should be. Like infinite tears Amumu.
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the only thing fun for me in it is making the noobs that play it for kill fests miserable. I usually go xin or something and backdoor tank turrets the entire game while they rage.
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On April 23 2016 11:41 suicideyear wrote:
whats enjoyable about urf
I agree, I find it the least enjoyable of the game modes Riot has come out with.
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On April 23 2016 13:24 VayneAuthority wrote:nothing unless you're bronze/silver. Its literally just mashing buttons like a chimpanzee.
its closest thing we have to sandbox mode
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On April 23 2016 11:41 suicideyear wrote:
whats enjoyable about urf
you can learn how to flash over walls and you can learn how to do combos
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On April 23 2016 23:52 nafta wrote:you can learn how to flash over walls and you can learn how to do combos
Where is our +1 button?
Besides flash and combo practice it's pretty fun if you're tipsy.
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20 ranked games no key fragments
3 urf games 2 key fragments...
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It also is learning mechanics on steroids. It can be a very good learning experience
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http://champion.gg/
galio 55% highest winrate in game, but playrate is super low so probably doesnt mean much
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On April 24 2016 01:00 Uldridge wrote:
It also is learning mechanics on steroids. It can be a very good learning experience
I dunno... I played a Kat game and literally did nothing but spam mash QWER.  challenjour mechonix.
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On April 24 2016 01:54 kongoline wrote:http://champion.gg/galio 55% highest winrate in game, but playrate is super low so probably doesnt mean much
I was about to say, I definitely don't have a 55% winrate. This happens every damn time to me.
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Australia18228 Posts
On April 24 2016 00:54 Miefer wrote:
20 ranked games no key fragments
3 urf games 2 key fragments...
Drop rate resets after 30 days, I think it's been around that much time since it first came out
I like playing URF cause you can try whatever you want and not feel bad. Tower dive and go 0-4 trade? laugh it off and do it again. It's fun when you play with people who keep making plays and you end up with crazy duels or lv1 invades that last 5mins
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On April 24 2016 03:00 Inflicted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 00:54 Miefer wrote:
20 ranked games no key fragments
3 urf games 2 key fragments... Drop rate resets after 30 days, I think it's been around that much time since it first came out I like playing URF cause you can try whatever you want and not feel bad. Tower dive and go 0-4 trade? laugh it off and do it again. It's fun when you play with people who keep making plays and you end up with crazy duels or lv1 invades that last 5mins
Are you sure? I've gotten three key fragments from URF in two days, I got one fragment in a whole week of ranked games. Granted, I play soloQ and I'm just one case, but URF just seems to drop more fragments. Maybe it has to do with how many ppl get S ranks in URF (someone always seems to get it with a stupid OP pick), although I've had a lot of stomp rank games as well.
URF gets kind of boring after 10 games or so, happy it's just on a rotation.
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Australia18228 Posts
On April 24 2016 03:19 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 03:00 Inflicted wrote:On April 24 2016 00:54 Miefer wrote:
20 ranked games no key fragments
3 urf games 2 key fragments... Drop rate resets after 30 days, I think it's been around that much time since it first came out I like playing URF cause you can try whatever you want and not feel bad. Tower dive and go 0-4 trade? laugh it off and do it again. It's fun when you play with people who keep making plays and you end up with crazy duels or lv1 invades that last 5mins Are you sure? I've gotten three key fragments from URF in two days, I got one fragment in a whole week of ranked games. Granted, I play soloQ and I'm just one case, but URF just seems to drop more fragments. Maybe it has to do with how many ppl get S ranks in URF (someone always seems to get it with a stupid OP pick), although I've had a lot of stomp rank games as well. URF gets kind of boring after 10 games or so, happy it's just on a rotation.
https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/207884233-Hextech-Crafting-Guide
"The drop rate for key fragments is a curve, not a line. With each fragment you earn, the chance to earn your next one goes down slightly. This number resets roughly every thirty days after you earn your first key fragment."
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These tencent splasharts are really messing with me. All the old splashes look computer generated, and then these look like they're hand drawn..
edit: I don't know the term to use for the regular splash arts..
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Alright. Taric+Hyper Tanks is insane. 400-500 damage shield spam on tanks is legit broken, to hell with your mid and adc carries and everything else in his kit just bastion up with your frontline top and jungle tanks and pummel your opponent down 3v5.
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yes that is why soraka and taric are permbans atm. Soraka is the best way to deal with him since he counters his whole never die thing by being a better never die bot. So if soraka is banned and you arent fp good idea to ban taric.
and thats why we have janna/braum/morg as the supports in every game right now, exciting
if they don't give us 10 bans with the mage update/mid season thing the game is gonna be fucked.
Theres too many permbans in the game again
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On April 25 2016 18:45 Jek wrote:
Alright. Taric+Hyper Tanks is insane. 400-500 damage shield spam on tanks is legit broken, to hell with your mid and adc carries and everything else in his kit just bastion up with your frontline top and jungle tanks and pummel your opponent down 3v5.
LOL yea i was watching the spotlight phreak did
"you're going to be spending most of the time using W on your adc but.."
yeah no
put it on garen or some shit and he can just jump on whoever and they won't be able to do anything because if you try to focus taric can ult and hit both jungle and top
you can stand next to adc and just R yourself and it'll hit adc anyway
I have no real idea how strong taric is because he's banned every game
seen him like once and we lost that game he seemed op
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My winrate on jungle Taric is 13 wins 5 losses.
I felt I was busting out a lot of wins just from "drafting better comps" then i realized when you have jungle Taric it doesn't matter what retarded shit your team picks, Taric makes it good.
"Aww fuck yeah! Top Tryndamere! Such synergy!"
I think the last time I was excited my tear picked tryn was when they derp buffed his ap ratios a few seasons ago. Dat split push. I cringed internally upon thinking the thought.
I know he probably needs a nerf, but I'd rather they didn't.
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hes not bad at all in solo queue right now. Even malphite struggles to lane vs him for a while,
one tricks usually do well consistently on trynd, but besides that i would not want to play with one unless they main him
like the only two champs that can stand up to tryn in lane are trundle/panth
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why is it that when u have 90 some league points and win a game but then lose your series you end up at the same amount if I had 80 points and won a game to get into series. had 98 league points went -02 in series at fucking 65 now sucha joke.
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On April 26 2016 06:51 IamPryda wrote:
why is it that when u have 90 some league points and win a game but then lose your series you end up at the same amount if I had 80 points and won a game to get into series. had 98 league points went -02 in series at fucking 65 now sucha joke.
Shit don't matter. It's just window dressing on your mmr.
Your mmr increases the same. Just ignore it.
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On April 26 2016 06:51 IamPryda wrote:
why is it that when u have 90 some league points and win a game but then lose your series you end up at the same amount if I had 80 points and won a game to get into series. had 98 league points went -02 in series at fucking 65 now sucha joke.
You end up with as much LP as you would get if you played out those games without being in a series and able to go over 100.
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On April 26 2016 08:39 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 06:51 IamPryda wrote:
why is it that when u have 90 some league points and win a game but then lose your series you end up at the same amount if I had 80 points and won a game to get into series. had 98 league points went -02 in series at fucking 65 now sucha joke. You end up with as much LP as you would get if you played out those games without being in a series and able to go over 100.
clearly not if I was at 98 lp (with gains being 20-22 per win) and win a game I would be at 118-120. my lp losses are 18-19. I then lose 2 games in a row even if I took -20 for each loss I should be at 80 lp not 65. I know in the long run its meaningless but the grind between division tiers 5-1 can be so tedious if u lose too many series.
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You go to 100, then you lost 35 going 0-2. Simple.
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On April 26 2016 10:31 IamPryda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 08:39 Gahlo wrote:On April 26 2016 06:51 IamPryda wrote:
why is it that when u have 90 some league points and win a game but then lose your series you end up at the same amount if I had 80 points and won a game to get into series. had 98 league points went -02 in series at fucking 65 now sucha joke. You end up with as much LP as you would get if you played out those games without being in a series and able to go over 100. clearly not if I was at 98 lp (with gains being 20-22 per win) and win a game I would be at 118-120. my lp losses are 18-19. I then lose 2 games in a row even if I took -20 for each loss I should be at 80 lp not 65. I know in the long run its meaningless but the grind between division tiers 5-1 can be so tedious if u lose too many series.
You can gain lp for winning games after you are in a series but the game that gets you in the series only gets you to 100.
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So, I was playing ARAM today and was pretty surprised to find out if you QSS Galio ult, it pulls you back into it if you can't exit it before the next tick of his taunt. Does anyone know when they changed that? 4.21 maybe? I swear I saw people walking out of it within the past 20 patches or so (in fact, I know I played a game where a Sivir was spell shielding out of it), without having to be on the edge. Am I crazy?
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On April 26 2016 15:13 zer0das wrote:
So, I was playing ARAM today and was pretty surprised to find out if you QSS Galio ult, it pulls you back into it if you can't exit it before the next tick of his taunt. Does anyone know when they changed that? 4.21 maybe? I swear I saw people walking out of it within the past 20 patches or so (in fact, I know I played a game where a Sivir was spell shielding out of it), without having to be on the edge. Am I crazy?
It's always been a refreshing taunt AFAIK as long as you're in the zone. Prob like every 0.25s, not sure.
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Pretty sure it wasn't, because the big complain was that anyone with tenacity wrecked him
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It didn't refresh fast, and iirc the damage occurred after the last tick (so a bit of fluttering) and the damage AoE was smaller than the cc AoE.
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On April 26 2016 15:13 zer0das wrote:
So, I was playing ARAM today and was pretty surprised to find out if you QSS Galio ult, it pulls you back into it if you can't exit it before the next tick of his taunt. Does anyone know when they changed that? 4.21 maybe? I swear I saw people walking out of it within the past 20 patches or so (in fact, I know I played a game where a Sivir was spell shielding out of it), without having to be on the edge. Am I crazy?
It's tick rate was changed quite some time ago since with Mercs you could just spam move out of it unless he blew it super early and Irelia with mercs was literally immune to the CC part. Before the change you had enough time between ticks to easily get away or issue commands with QSS.
Assuming zero packet losses you should in theory still be able to QSS/Flash out if your ping is sub 20 since they have no animations.
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On April 26 2016 15:13 zer0das wrote:
So, I was playing ARAM today and was pretty surprised to find out if you QSS Galio ult, it pulls you back into it if you can't exit it before the next tick of his taunt. Does anyone know when they changed that? 4.21 maybe? I swear I saw people walking out of it within the past 20 patches or so (in fact, I know I played a game where a Sivir was spell shielding out of it), without having to be on the edge. Am I crazy?
Yup.
V4.21:
Idol of Durand
* Taunt duration is no longer reduced by crowd control reduction.
As for spellshield interaction, it's working as intended.:
V1.0.0.105(Irelia):
Idol Of Durand
* Fixed a bug where casting would break an enemy's spell shield and then taunt them again.
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in related news I won a d2 game playing galio adc the other day. I think thats a testament to just how broken janna is as thats who i laned with and kept up in cs with the lucian.
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On April 26 2016 18:39 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 15:13 zer0das wrote:
So, I was playing ARAM today and was pretty surprised to find out if you QSS Galio ult, it pulls you back into it if you can't exit it before the next tick of his taunt. Does anyone know when they changed that? 4.21 maybe? I swear I saw people walking out of it within the past 20 patches or so (in fact, I know I played a game where a Sivir was spell shielding out of it), without having to be on the edge. Am I crazy? It's tick rate was changed quite some time ago since with Mercs you could just spam move out of it unless he blew it super early and Irelia with mercs was literally immune to the CC part. Before the change you had enough time between ticks to easily get away or issue commands with QSS. Assuming zero packet losses you should in theory still be able to QSS/Flash out if your ping is sub 20 since they have no animations.
Seems like a really weird way to code it if all they cared about was tenacity. It is one of the offseason patches too, so there's no video patch notes talking about their intention. A rather large omission to not specifically mention this interaction in the patch notes considering how much it alters what you have to do against Galio.
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On April 27 2016 04:12 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 18:39 Jek wrote:On April 26 2016 15:13 zer0das wrote:
So, I was playing ARAM today and was pretty surprised to find out if you QSS Galio ult, it pulls you back into it if you can't exit it before the next tick of his taunt. Does anyone know when they changed that? 4.21 maybe? I swear I saw people walking out of it within the past 20 patches or so (in fact, I know I played a game where a Sivir was spell shielding out of it), without having to be on the edge. Am I crazy? It's tick rate was changed quite some time ago since with Mercs you could just spam move out of it unless he blew it super early and Irelia with mercs was literally immune to the CC part. Before the change you had enough time between ticks to easily get away or issue commands with QSS. Assuming zero packet losses you should in theory still be able to QSS/Flash out if your ping is sub 20 since they have no animations. Seems like a really weird way to code it if all they cared about was tenacity. It is one of the offseason patches too, so there's no video patch notes talking about their intention. A rather large omission to not specifically mention this interaction in the patch notes considering how much it alters what you have to do against Galio.
that has always been the incentive to play weak champs in this game, surprise factor/players dont know their mechanics. Is it stupid? yea but that's how its always been in league. There are so many nuances in champs that you only know if you play against them a lot or play them a lot yourself
that has always been the incentive to play weak champs in this game, surprise factor/players dont know their mechanics. Is it stupid? yea but that's how its always been in league. There are so many nuances in champs that you only know if you play against them a lot or play them a lot yourself
and I didn't build galio adc no, i simply meant i was laning him bot with janna. The point was more that janna is ridiculous if she can get galio through lucian/braum lane np.
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[QUOTE]On April 27 2016 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 27 2016 04:12 zer0das wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 26 2016 18:39 Jek wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 26 2016 15:13 zer0das wrote:
So, I was playing ARAM today and was pretty surprised to find out if you QSS Galio ult, it pulls you back into it if you can't exit it before the next tick of his taunt. Does anyone know when they changed that? 4.21 maybe? I swear I saw people walking out of it within the past 20 patches or so (in fact, I know I played a game where a Sivir was spell shielding out of it), without having to be on the edge. Am I crazy?[/QUOTE]
It's tick rate was changed quite some time ago since with Mercs you could just spam move out of it unless he blew it super early and Irelia with mercs was literally immune to the CC part. Before the change you had enough time between ticks to easily get away or issue commands with QSS.
Assuming zero packet losses you should in theory still be able to QSS/Flash out if your ping is sub 20 since they have no animations.[/QUOTE]
double post
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i tried playing rengar because of that reignover video in the client.
has any riot person acknowledged all the fucking bugs on this guy
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You learn to accept bugs as a part of the life of playing certain champs.
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On April 27 2016 16:01 JazzVortical wrote:
You learn to accept bugs as a part of the life of playing certain champs.
like malzahar, whats up with that
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wow playing in houses last night was fun. it really highlights the difference between bronze solo queue and organized team play. I was constantly surprised when the whole team showed up at the same time. I wish i was in a better warmed up and sober mentality but i think i kept up okay or at least I wasn't solely responsible for our loss. please invite me again next time!
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On April 27 2016 05:30 suicideyear wrote:
i tried playing rengar because of that reignover video in the client.
has any riot person acknowledged all the fucking bugs on this guy
to be fair rengar has had bugs since he came out some of them made him broken as shit others leave you thinking why didn't I do any damage?
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Or remember that HUGE bug that got released around september in season 2?
its still fucking around..
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uurrgh can riot plz force jungle slot to have smite. Happening way too often that my jungle forgets to take it. Like i know im a low Elo gold player but come on.
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It's because if you get a dodge summoners reset to last completed game. So you fix it, someone dodges, then the memory of fixing it tricks your brain.
At least thats how it gets me.
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^
And you get 3 dodges per Game I find.
Getting in a game is so hard now a days.
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it's probably somewhere in the middle, 1 dodge every 5 games sounds just as exaggerated to me.
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So, what's with the Xin hype I've seen recently on the ladder?
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probably they played him in urf and was like, dam he is good. 
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On April 28 2016 08:25 iCanada wrote:
^
And you get 3 dodges per Game I find.
Getting in a game is so hard now a days.
I've been getting a lot of dodges lately too. It might be due to people just having champions they want to play banned away or champions they really hate on either their own or opponents team, thanks to dynamic queue they'll get their preferred roll next time anyway so dodging a game isn't really that big of a deal.
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i find with dodging its either an epidemic or nonexistant at my mmr. The player pool is considerably small to the point where one troll in the queue can cause 5+ dodges in a row.
Besides that though, not that many. Had one yesterday where i had a yi one trick on my team and other team banned yi so he dodged but thats pretty rare
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On April 28 2016 12:09 Gahlo wrote:
So, what's with the Xin hype I've seen recently on the ladder?
who cares he's gonna be garbage pretty soon lol
they nerfed him a lot because sated xin was so strong and they are removing sated
like look at his abilities none of them scale past first rank
W only gives 5% attack speed and like 7.5% every third hit which is like 2.5% of your AD bonus.
Q like 1s cd and 40 damage but used to be good with spamming it with E.
E now flat cd and doesn't give that much damage. This used to be your max for clearing
Jax is gonna be terrible too post patch by the time you get 6 stack guinsoo you won't get many more autos to abuse the sated proc. Trinity barely gives any attack speed and his passive is too short to be reliable.
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i was under the impression he's going to be stronger after the changes.
a mini botrk for your jungle item when xin passively reduces armor and sated simply being shifted to the new guinsoo.
I have no idea but seems great on paper since you didnt want to farm stacks on xin anyway, hes a ganking jungler
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you need 6 stacks of guinsoo to get sated AND it costs 1k more
thats pretty huge thats like 3 potential 2 hit knockups you missed.
the mini botrk is worse than devourer was until lategame and even then most tanks have more armour than mr by a large amount so it being physical damage wont help that much
dont know about xin being a ganking jungler he's fairly strong but nothing special and needs farm to be useful
he has a super slow first clear and his other clears are bad too without items so that hits you had if you dont snowball with the ganks you make
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i wish they reverted trinity changes so its back being used on bruisers, why the hell riot thinks adc need 5th zeal item i will never know
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I'm worried about Shyvana too. No sated is a huge.
With sated she could do like 40% of someone's max hp with E auto Q. Big nerfs.
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So on the riot website it says the server is on, but for me it says "Did not receive a response from the server; retrying." and just won't connect. It was working perfectly fine always until this moment. o.o;
Is the authentication server actually down or what?
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On April 29 2016 08:30 BlackPaladin wrote:
So on the riot website it says the server is on, but for me it says "Did not receive a response from the server; retrying." and just won't connect. It was working perfectly fine always until this moment. o.o;
Is the authentication server actually down or what?
bunch of server issues right now.
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Rip NA servers. I'm in Chicago too, so you'd think it'd be fine for me, but if I can't connect I'm guessing it's routing issues located right in Chicago proper (which is not an uncommon occurrence).
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i wonder how long till riot realizes that dmg reduction passive on PD/death's dance is OP and reason why some champions like graves or yasuo feel twice as tanky as they should
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is it pretty normal to be getting diamonds when play playing on a pre 30 account? Seems every game atm is just one side getting stomped
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On April 30 2016 06:09 MuddyJam wrote:
is it pretty normal to be getting diamonds when play playing on a pre 30 account? Seems every game atm is just one side getting stomped
if its smurf and your a high elo player then yes. I leveled up a third account with a friend and by level 15 we were in games with plat/diamond groups who were qued up with friends on pre level 30 accounts.
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I am attempting to start playing League again.
250 ping sucks but I think I can get used to it?
Somebody give me a run down of what important things I should know that I do not know.
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On April 30 2016 07:59 Ketara wrote:
I am attempting to start playing League again.
250 ping sucks but I think I can get used to it?
Somebody give me a run down of what important things I should know that I do not know.
what did you know before? your role? what champions did you play? When did you last play?
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On April 29 2016 23:46 kongoline wrote:
i wonder how long till riot realizes that dmg reduction passive on PD/death's dance is OP and reason why some champions like graves or yasuo feel twice as tanky as they should
Graves E and Yasuo Passive op
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On April 30 2016 07:59 Ketara wrote:
I am attempting to start playing League again.
250 ping sucks but I think I can get used to it?
Somebody give me a run down of what important things I should know that I do not know.
In my opinion, For 6.8 ban Maokai, Graves, Ekko, Nidalee, Kindred, Karma. Other than that it's just knowing your role/lane matchups like normal.
6.9 is when things are going to get thrown out the fucking window, which shouldn't happen until after MSI.
Also, how are you on 250 ping? I thought the move of NA servers made most people (other than those in the Midwest) have 60-90 ping. Or are you playing from overseas to NA?
Edit: Nevermind, says you're posting from Malaysia. Hmm... Dunno what I can recommend to you in terms of roles or champs to play with that high ping.
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karma is garbage why would you ban
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On April 30 2016 07:59 Ketara wrote:
I am attempting to start playing League again.
250 ping sucks but I think I can get used to it?
Somebody give me a run down of what important things I should know that I do not know.
If your ping's stable you can get used to it. It's shit but workable.
You played mostly mages right? Lux is still fine mid, janna/raka support work well. Patch6.9 is a mage patch so until then all the same champs you played are fine and not much different.
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I don't think I like League anymore.
I keep trying to jungle the way that I used to, and it's like the jungle feels so much stronger, I have to clear perfectly to not get executed by jungle camps, one tiny little thing fucks it up and destroys my entire game.
I don't like how they split Machete into two items. And I don't like how one of them is clearly better than the other.
I've played like 10 Sejuani games now and gotten executed by jungle mobs in my first clear in I think three of them.
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you need to optimise ur clear nikka
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On May 02 2016 08:53 Ketara wrote:
I don't think I like League anymore.
I keep trying to jungle the way that I used to, and it's like the jungle feels so much stronger, I have to clear perfectly to not get executed by jungle camps, one tiny little thing fucks it up and destroys my entire game.
I don't like how they split Machete into two items. And I don't like how one of them is clearly better than the other.
I've played like 10 Sejuani games now and gotten executed by jungle mobs in my first clear in I think three of them.
are you doing refillable pot?
if you can't clear with it then use regular pots
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On May 02 2016 08:53 Ketara wrote:
I don't think I like League anymore.
I keep trying to jungle the way that I used to, and it's like the jungle feels so much stronger, I have to clear perfectly to not get executed by jungle camps, one tiny little thing fucks it up and destroys my entire game.
I don't like how they split Machete into two items. And I don't like how one of them is clearly better than the other.
I've played like 10 Sejuani games now and gotten executed by jungle mobs in my first clear in I think three of them.
If you're going Machete on Sejuani, you're doing it wrong.
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well I just got through a no leash 6 camp clear fine so you probably just have the wrong set up
with a leash you definitely should be finishing the clear with refillable and at least half hp with minimal micro
post your setup if you really can't do a full clear, there is something wrong for sure
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Yeah, I just did a gromp start full clear of the jungle, ended with like 200 HP. If you were to do a Golem start you'd likely finish with probably 200 more HP again.
I think you could Gromp>Blue>Wolves>Gank very easily on Sej. Feels like a very flexible clear to me.
Do you mind letting us know what your Runes/Masteries are? I was running AS Reds, AS Quints, Flat Armor Yellows, 6x Flat CDR Blues, and then Scaling Blues. Gives you like 30% AS, 9 armor, and 5% CDR.
For Masteries you should be fine as long as you have Savagery and Tough Skin. Not sure what you're doing wrong, but it should be much less painful. You want Strength of Ages for sure.
I started Talisman + 3 Pot.
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On April 30 2016 21:33 Slayer91 wrote:
karma is garbage why would you ban
Lolwut, Karma is super good support right now, although not ban worthy. Frustrating to lane against, good peel, and a reliable stun for certain situations (also good single player disengage). Tons of people just don't know how to play her.
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found the karma player
low winrate, (18/26 on champ.gg, thresh 19th but he's hard to play+highly played) insistence everyone else is wrong, exaggeration of strengths with no comparison to other supports. compare peel/stun/frustrating to lane against with thresh who's an "average" support, he's better at all those things.
karma is low played which means mostly played by enthusiasts with the same winrate as thresh which is played by anyone who gets stuck with support and is the most played
her winrate is significantly worse than sona who nobody thinks is good
its interesting to investigate the "people don't know how to play her"
seems theres reasonable evidence. People who go QWQE have 54% winrate and people who spec thunderlords+offensive tree have a 61% winrate. People who go full ap runes with hp yellows have a higher winrate, but locket ardent censer after sightstone is highest winrate build with only 51%
Someone like jax has a bigger disparity, people going grasp and flat resist runes like 44% winrate up to 57% if they get scaling resists and fervour
winrate analysis seems flaky though, Q first amumu with E>W>Q max (E>Q>W is better) is the highest maxing winrate too
maybe too much low elo analysis from champ.gg
op.gg seems more reliable, actually sees full as reds/quints on irelia as the highest winrate
highest winrates for karma seem to be involve full AP builds from support
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Idk about ban worthy but karma mid is pretty good right now
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karma mid might be good seems like you can waveclear with RQ and roam or somtehing
i think faker plays it
interestingly in kr and euw karma has a 44/48% winrate on support and much worse on solos, and in na its 52% on support. But in all cases winrate is 60%+ on people maxing Q>E>W (30-40% of players)
which is odd because IIRC the guy saying people don't know how to play karma advocates E max which oddly seems to be more popular since I can't imagine anyone maxes anything but W last.
that said build and skill analysis is so weird looking at amumu all the listed skill orders which covered just about everything were all 60% wirnate but his winrate was 52%
unless 40% of people max Q first and lose every game or something
dont understand
I'd take any winrate analysis from builds/skill order with a grain of salt just because I don't know where all the bad skill orders with low winrates are coming from.
it might be that anyone who gets level 15 on X champ automatically has a 60% winrate lol
similarly if you get a bunch of items you probably have a high winrate since you didnt ff before you could buy anything
On May 02 2016 22:21 JimmiC wrote:
I think sona is good! Goto love playing her getting lichbain and than people all "wtf is that damage" You have to play her ap with thunderlords for the real Lol's though. One shoting adcs and squishy mages is great and unlike vel/brand you also provide utility with heal speed up and wicked ult.
She has a 59% winrate 175 games with the damage set up on champion.gg
you could do that with old sona with tank items though
was real beastly i abused in season 2
they made her more of an aura bot when she doesn't have the peel to do it effectively, pretty much should be played as an engaging burst support
old sona was so sick you bullied lane so hard and had good burst and teamfighting later and could build tank anyway
only jungle camp kept her winrate down
that said free locket on W is pretty nice i guess
edit: dunno what im talking about champ.gg is just combining all the op.gg's they still only look at plat+ im retarded
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Why would you max E first on Karma support, though? She gets weaker at level 6 compared to others so you'd want to apply pressure in lane before that, and a shield when you're not Janna (and still have low aa range) isn't going to allow that.
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i dont know why you would play any support except janna, soraka, taric, braum, bard but thats just me.
They outclass everyone in what they do best.
Blitzcrank/brand honorable mentions that fill a different but shitty niche
(talking solo queue here)
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 02 2016 08:53 Ketara wrote:
I don't think I like League anymore.
I keep trying to jungle the way that I used to, and it's like the jungle feels so much stronger, I have to clear perfectly to not get executed by jungle camps, one tiny little thing fucks it up and destroys my entire game.
I don't like how they split Machete into two items. And I don't like how one of them is clearly better than the other.
I've played like 10 Sejuani games now and gotten executed by jungle mobs in my first clear in I think three of them.
I think that you are messing something up pretty huge. In fact one of my no-leash jungle paths is Red (smite) -> Wraiths -> Scuttler -> Gromp (smite) -> Blue -> Wolves and I can do that with refillable pot + Talisman without requiring too much concentration. With a leash a full clear with refillable is pretty easy.
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thats inefficient as fuck compared to gromp-->golem which you should be able to do without any help on any viable jungler
scip jungle challenge shoulda shown that
the only reasonable alternatives involve an early gank or avoiding strong counter junglers like nidalee and shaco maybe kindred and you're banking on them losing time trying to find you
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On May 02 2016 23:17 VayneAuthority wrote:
i dont know why you would play any support except janna, soraka, taric, braum, bard but thats just me.
They outclass everyone in what they do best.
Blitzcrank/brand honorable mentions that fill a different but shitty niche
(talking solo queue here)
cuz you play w/e you feel like in le solo and skill matters more than champion choice. Having fun does help with winrate over a long period of tme as well.
On May 02 2016 23:38 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2016 08:53 Ketara wrote:
I don't think I like League anymore.
I keep trying to jungle the way that I used to, and it's like the jungle feels so much stronger, I have to clear perfectly to not get executed by jungle camps, one tiny little thing fucks it up and destroys my entire game.
I don't like how they split Machete into two items. And I don't like how one of them is clearly better than the other.
I've played like 10 Sejuani games now and gotten executed by jungle mobs in my first clear in I think three of them. I think that you are messing something up pretty huge. In fact one of my no-leash jungle paths is Red (smite) -> Wraiths -> Scuttler -> Gromp (smite) -> Blue -> Wolves and I can do that with refillable pot + Talisman without requiring too much concentration. With a leash a full clear with refillable is pretty easy.
That path is absolute shit.
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I feel like blitz is scary as fuck if you win lane and have strong waveclear mid
just waveclear and hook pattern it's gonna hit eventually
blitz is general feels like you can carry hard at all points of the game if you're good with hooks but i rarely see it
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 03 2016 00:28 Slayer91 wrote:
thats inefficient as fuck compared to gromp-->golem which you should be able to do without any help on any viable jungler
scip jungle challenge shoulda shown that
the only reasonable alternatives involve an early gank or avoiding strong counter junglers like nidalee and shaco maybe kindred and you're banking on them losing time trying to find you
I should clarify. It's a counterjungle path for a blue jungler: enemy red, enemy wraiths, scuttle, gromp, blue, wolves. It's leashless and really kills a red jungler that's going Gromp -> Blue -> Red -> gank.
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On May 03 2016 00:37 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2016 00:28 Slayer91 wrote:
thats inefficient as fuck compared to gromp-->golem which you should be able to do without any help on any viable jungler
scip jungle challenge shoulda shown that
the only reasonable alternatives involve an early gank or avoiding strong counter junglers like nidalee and shaco maybe kindred and you're banking on them losing time trying to find you I should clarify. It's a counterjungle path from blue side - enemy red, enemy wraiths, scuttle, gromp, blue, wolves. It's leashless and really kills a Gromp -> Blue -> Red -> gank path.
Do people not cover/ward wtf?
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Half the time their top laner is at tribush or their tower, so that's just a free buff.
The other half of the time, if you leave base and rush immediately to their red, you'll either beat them there or get there around the same time. In either case, if they do show up, you can just disengage and walk away because you can't get surrounded and trapped like you can if you invade bot side blue jungle.
It's (almost) a no-risk play, simply because it's very rare for red team to send more than 2 people to top side red jungle.
EDIT: If you have a very slow jungler, you might not have time for wraiths if the other jungler is fast. That sucks because the point of doing wraiths is that you will be catching scuttler right as it spawns. Combine that with a ward around red, and now the enemy jungler is level 2, in vision, with only Krugs to take and has no feasible gank if your top laner isn't braindead.
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if they start red and do golems with a leash and catch you at red then what
if they start blue and mid covers wraiths entrance then what
i say start red but nobody starts red they start golems with a leash
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The chance that a) a red-side jungler starts Krugs b) I don't see them there and c) finishes Krugs with such a strong leash that he shows up at his red before I can finish it is basically non-existent. When was the last time you can remember a red-side jungler that started Krugs?
Also, I don't know what you mean by "if they start blue and mid covers wraiths entrance". If either mid or top actually spots me before the camps spawn, I just walk away and do my own camps. And after minions arrive, no mid laner is going to randomly leave lane to check their wraiths.
There's an extra benefit to this invade, which is that the enemy's buffs are both going to respawn at the same time. This means that if you have a little bit of vision on where the jungler is around 6:xx, you can make an educated guess as to where he'll be and either a) invade and kill him with your mid laner or b) take another free buff.
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i mean what elo are we talking here? The top laner usually leashes for your jungler at any respectable elo so we need some context here.
It would be very stupid to attempt that in my opinion. Bot lane not taking a camp lvl 1 is very rare/puts you at big disadvantage.
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Gotta care for the early wards tho. What i often do against strong clearing junglers (those most likely to steal opponent red) i drop a ward at entrance asap and sit in tri or w.e. if you walk by that it is extremely easy to collapse. If i dont ward it its usually vs someone that wouldnt benefit as much. Red start isnt the most optimal for early farming and big buffs dont give that great exp relative to their strength compared to other camps.
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On May 03 2016 02:53 GrandInquisitor wrote:
The chance that a) a red-side jungler starts Krugs b) I don't see them there and c) finishes Krugs with such a strong leash that he shows up at his red before I can finish it is basically non-existent. When was the last time you can remember a red-side jungler that started Krugs?
Also, I don't know what you mean by "if they start blue and mid covers wraiths entrance". If either mid or top actually spots me before the camps spawn, I just walk away and do my own camps. And after minions arrive, no mid laner is going to randomly leave lane to check their wraiths.
There's an extra benefit to this invade, which is that the enemy's buffs are both going to respawn at the same time. This means that if you have a little bit of vision on where the jungler is around 6:xx, you can make an educated guess as to where he'll be and either a) invade and kill him with your mid laner or b) take another free buff.
When you get to >d5 every single game
edit:I lied if scip is playing olaf he will want to start blue or gromp
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Gromp buff is so strong.
puts you like 20 seconds ahead of other jungle all things being even. And other jungler will probably expect you to start at Krugs. Its a pretty big advantage.
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On May 03 2016 02:53 GrandInquisitor wrote:
The chance that a) a red-side jungler starts Krugs b) I don't see them there and c) finishes Krugs with such a strong leash that he shows up at his red before I can finish it is basically non-existent. When was the last time you can remember a red-side jungler that started Krugs?
Also, I don't know what you mean by "if they start blue and mid covers wraiths entrance". If either mid or top actually spots me before the camps spawn, I just walk away and do my own camps. And after minions arrive, no mid laner is going to randomly leave lane to check their wraiths.
There's an extra benefit to this invade, which is that the enemy's buffs are both going to respawn at the same time. This means that if you have a little bit of vision on where the jungler is around 6:xx, you can make an educated guess as to where he'll be and either a) invade and kill him with your mid laner or b) take another free buff.
You're gonna feel really bad when/if you hit Diamond+. Junglers of both teams start top-side so the duo lanes can get the bot-side camps for fast level 2. Makes for a nice trick in low Elo, though.
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On May 02 2016 22:23 Slayer91 wrote:
karma mid might be good seems like you can waveclear with RQ and roam or somtehing
i think faker plays it
interestingly in kr and euw karma has a 44/48% winrate on support and much worse on solos, and in na its 52% on support. But in all cases winrate is 60%+ on people maxing Q>E>W (30-40% of players)
which is odd because IIRC the guy saying people don't know how to play karma advocates E max which oddly seems to be more popular since I can't imagine anyone maxes anything but W last.
Where are you getting this info? OP.gg doesn't seem to say that at all. Its got 8.3k karma games but less than 1k for all skill information. (E,Q,W, has a whopping 55 games of information). With an overall win rate of 48% for support Karma either OP.gg thinks everyone shield maxes or its missing games.
Champion.gg has Q>E>W at 48.5% win rate over 8400 games ostensibly using the same data set (OP.gg claims plat+ just as champion.gg does).
On May 02 2016 23:10 Alaric wrote:
Why would you max E first on Karma support, though? She gets weaker at level 6 compared to others so you'd want to apply pressure in lane before that, and a shield when you're not Janna (and still have low aa range) isn't going to allow that.
Three reasons
1) You are actually better than Janna because you have a much better AA animation and 50 range longer auto attack. Plus the speed up makes it even easier to auto harass safely.
2) You absolutely need the CD reduction and speedup amount by the mid game. Once you're outside of laning phase your Q damage is going to suck(and be had to land) and so if you do not have your shield being useful then you're not going to do much of anything.
Outside of laning phase you're almost exclusively going want to use mantra-E. E ranks will increase the shield on allies while Q or W ranks do nothing for the mantra addition. You get no additional utility on Q, no extra slow, nothing except 45 damage/rank and some CD. This is essential for mid karma to clear waves, but you don't need to do that as support Karma.
3) Shield max lets you get w up faster which increases your root duration by a full second. This means your peel and pick when you need to transfer to those is much stronger.
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if you want to play E max karma just play soraka
instead of shielding you just heal for the same amount every 2 seconds and instead of mantra E you just press R
you've got a silence and a slow without having to wait like karma leash
thing is janna has 2 forms of AoE CC an AoE heal and a slow to go with her shield
nobody ever goes "oh shit I can't dive this ADC there's a karma who's going to root me for 1.2 seconds any time now
also janna giving free pickaxes at 5 minutes with her shields and is pretty weak in lane
but with e max karma you can speed your adc faster into a 1v2 fight
or maybe root the enemies so they cant run from the 1v2 fight
I'm not saying mantra E isn't pretty good but you cant just wait till level 13 for it
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On May 03 2016 05:30 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2016 22:23 Slayer91 wrote:
karma mid might be good seems like you can waveclear with RQ and roam or somtehing
i think faker plays it
interestingly in kr and euw karma has a 44/48% winrate on support and much worse on solos, and in na its 52% on support. But in all cases winrate is 60%+ on people maxing Q>E>W (30-40% of players)
which is odd because IIRC the guy saying people don't know how to play karma advocates E max which oddly seems to be more popular since I can't imagine anyone maxes anything but W last.
Where are you getting this info? OP.gg doesn't seem to say that at all. Its got 8.3k karma games but less than 1k for all skill information. (E,Q,W, has a whopping 55 games of information). With an overall win rate of 48% for support Karma either OP.gg thinks everyone shield maxes or its missing games. Champion.gg has Q>E>W at 48.5% win rate over 8400 games ostensibly using the same data set (OP.gg claims plat+ just as champion.gg does).
zzz, the winrate stuff is weird on op.gg can't really trust it, doesn't add up at all
Champion.gg has Q>E>W at 48.5% winrate but if people going QWQ (i.e forgoing shield until lvl 4 for more harassing) as having a 55% winrate, but with a lower sample size (~500 games I think)
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At least max Q till level 5 or 7 if you want to get E early, because better aa animation and 50 range means jack shit when your range is still below average, and your shield won't let you win a trade like Janna's can. If I see you shield yourself and run to me as Braum, Lulu or even Sona, I'll gladly take the trade and fight you.
If you a champion that's useless in lane and doesn't do anything until later, then don't pick a champion who's best before 6 and whose utility doesn't make up for the otherwise inferior kit and all over the place benefits.
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You really can't just wait till level 13 for it. I mean, unless you just want to not fight anything between levels 6 through 13.
Soraka should max Q. Janna has neither an AoE Speedup or an AoE shield multiple times in a team fight, she is good in against assassins but not particularly anything else.
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janna actually does have an aoe speed up keke
but yea ill take janna over a walking RG+locket active nearly all the time
just because mantra E isn't completely maxed out doesn't mean its totally useless and also you get to use mantra Q's for poke which is nice for sieging early towers and dragon fights while their tanks don't have the items to just block and ignore the damage
I wouldn't say janna is only good against assassins, anyone who wants to dive a squishy line she's good against. Maybe not the best but always a strong support in all seasons.
Not sure what's you taking about with Q max soraka
it's like the champion with a 2 second heal that's as good as karma shield should be taking the shitty poke spell and the champion with the really good poke spell should be taking the shitty shield what?
then again the stats back you up it has a higher winrate by 5% if you max Q>W
EDIT: Oh they massively buffed her Q since I last played her, Q heals your allies now and gives you a speed boost what the fuck riot??
oh yeah i forgot soraka has a root as good as karmas if it hits but also silences damn riot nice job
I actually think the main thing karma has going for her is that she's fun to play. You can run around poking people in lane and then zoom zoom later on. I see her a lot more than a lot of way better supports but she's never scary to play against or anything.
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the only thing good about karma is that she is slightly better then lulu in the support role, which isnt saying much.
I don't mind having karma if im playing skarner, but i cant think of any other champions where I would want her
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On May 03 2016 06:19 Alaric wrote:
At least max Q till level 5 or 7 if you want to get E early, because better aa animation and 50 range means jack shit when your range is still below average, and your shield won't let you win a trade like Janna's can. If I see you shield yourself and run to me as Braum, Lulu or even Sona, I'll gladly take the trade and fight you.
If you a champion that's useless in lane and doesn't do anything until later, then don't pick a champion who's best before 6 and whose utility doesn't make up for the otherwise inferior kit and all over the place benefits.
And you will lose that trade if you try it*
I mean i just don't know what to tell you. Karma's laning is strong on an E max as well as a Q. (and its less binary). Her mid and lategame are better on an E max than a Q and her mid and lategame are not weak in the slightest on an E max. Karma has a goddamn 440+1.1 AP (220+.55 secondary) shield every goddamn 8 to 12 seconds in a team fight, with a 2 second targeted root on a 6.6 second CD (that can also heal her for 40% of her missing HP if she forgoes one of the shields). Against basically everyone but some assassins Karma has a stronger late-game than Janna.
*though to be fair, probably not on Sona. Lulu can't auto fast enough to not get picked apart. If she E's you she can probably land the Q, but won't do well on the trade and will run oom way too fast. Braum just gets shit on since you don't shield until he attempts to hit you with a Q at which point you dodge it with your shield speedup and ruin his day since he has no way to get near you or do damage to you.
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How many teamfights are going to be grouped up that 8-12 seconds time (I'm guessing you're assuming everything goes perfectly and you proc your passive a lot) that you can abuse this shield more than once?
Like I mean I'm just talking about karma in general at level 13 you're arguing about whether 0.6 seconds of root (against a mercs bruiser) is better than having poke damage.
You don't cast shield until braum attempts to fire Q.
And what if braum doesn't Q until you cast shield? bit of a standoff then
so yea you win lane is braum is dumb good job.
maybe you can try to auto harass your way to victory but you'll take a lot of creep damage might work but you'll push the lane enough that they won't lose many creeps even if braum never uses any abilities
depends on adc too braum can just W a creep and auto your adc and lucian procs the stun and you hit Q after but if adc is ezreal or something you can't do that at all.
Can you like record some games of you doing well with this E max karma so you can convince us with more than
"It's strong because I told you it's strong" or "List what E does and then say its better than alternatives with no context"
I mean the burden of proof is on you since karma is statisically bad, never really played in pro games and even then not as an E max.
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Mantra q is shit for poke. It's got shit range and no follow up because the slow isn't big enough to keep people in its damage. Additionally it prevents you from using mantra e. Which is your actual key skill.
E needs the cooldown bonus as well as the stronger shield. The CD makes the speed up a lot more effective and also brings the total shield strength/time up over Janna (without mantra)
Janna does not have an AoE sped up. It only works if allies are moving towards her
Proving the passive is easy. I assume about 2 autos and one full w channel in my cd assumptions. Plus the 50 games of doing this of course.
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shit poke?
what is a better poke spell from a support champion? Velkoz Q?
yea the slow isn't good enough to keep people in its damage assuming you never have any teammates casting any cc spells or preventing them from walking certain directions
if you never have teammates mantra E is pretty worthless too
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This is why I cant stand this forum sometimes, it just turns into people that have a relative idea vs completely clueless people when the skill ranges vary so widely.
This discussion is a joke but its gonna continue for like 5 more pages until a mod says to stfu.
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Sometimes people are convincing but I feel like Goumindong is just clinically listing every possible idealistic benefit of E max and completely disregarding alternatives as bad without analysis or based on bad case scenarios
also forget about karma everyone should be prepping their trundle for the un QSSable steal their tank ultimate.
also prepping zed bans lol.
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like karma being a better support "vs everybody but some assassins" then janna is the stupidest thing ive heard all year but if i said how i really felt id get banned instantly. So instead garbage discussion just permeates the board and it turns into an inactive reddit basically
and this is coming from some one that loves non meta, like I only play non meta champs. But damn.
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You can only cite experience and intuition to qualify it being so stupid though, so unless you wanna start waving your elo dick around it's hard be able to claim reasonably that it's retarded.
You can cite statistics as a strong case for its falsehood but not strong enough to disprove someone suggesting a different approach to the champ completely.
So you're mostly left with logic which is a difficult thing because there are so many dependent variables and a lot of general complexity so it's difficult to isolate key factors which is what makes this interesting.
Comparison seems like an important method because it allows us to view the deltas because arguing a shield is weak only makes sense if compared to something else.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 03 2016 07:03 VayneAuthority wrote:
like karma being a better support "vs everybody but some assassins" then janna is the stupidest thing ive heard all year but if i said how i really felt id get banned instantly. So instead garbage discussion just permeates the board and it turns into an inactive reddit basically
and this is coming from some one that loves non meta, like I only play non meta champs. But damn.
Eh, everyone says dumb shit on this forum, even yourself. That's kinda what an Internet forum is. But the point is that by putting competing dumb shit up against each other, you sometimes learn some useful stuff. Whereas when everyone just agrees with each other and circlejerks, nothing of value is gained.
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On May 03 2016 06:56 Slayer91 wrote:
Sometimes people are convincing but I feel like Goumindong is just clinically listing every possible idealistic benefit of E max and completely disregarding alternatives as bad without analysis or based on bad case scenarios
also forget about karma everyone should be prepping their trundle for the un QSSable steal their tank ultimate.
also prepping zed bans lol.
not like people even build it vs him
saw exactly 2x in 79 games. I actually kept track yes.
Also the whole "karma matrad poke is hard to land" thing needs to stop. No it isn't. Literally all you have to do is figure out where it explodes and aim it slightly in front of your target.
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On May 03 2016 06:23 Goumindong wrote:
You really can't just wait till level 13 for it. I mean, unless you just want to not fight anything between levels 6 through 13.
Soraka should max Q. Janna has neither an AoE Speedup or an AoE shield multiple times in a team fight, she is good in against assassins but not particularly anything else.
Janna is only good against assassins and have no AoE Speedup? What.... She's the goddess of disengage and her passive if you play her right is basically always going to be active on your backline - which is who you want to play around with her. Hell, Janna can easily get away with Captain enchantment futher boosting her passive AoE speed buff. You're even ignoring its only a 1.5s speed buff vs something that's nearly always active?
She can cancel so much BS it's not even funny with properly timed tornados and/or monsoon. Out of the popular champions pretty much only Maokai and Malphite can engage against her. Your comparison of their shields is so biased I dont even know what to say Janna will eventually be giving her adc a BF Sword which you for some reason or another seem to ignore.. The only time Karma's shield is larger than Janna's is when it's mantraed and an nearly equal amount of AP.
On May 03 2016 06:36 Goumindong wrote:
I mean i just don't know what to tell you. Karma's laning is strong on an E max as well as a Q. (and its less binary). Her mid and lategame are better on an E max than a Q and her mid and lategame are not weak in the slightest on an E max. Karma has a goddamn 440+1.1 AP (220+.55 secondary) shield every goddamn 8 to 12 seconds in a team fight, with a 2 second targeted root on a 6.6 second CD (that can also heal her for 40% of her missing HP if she forgoes one of the shields). Against basically everyone but some assassins Karma has a stronger late-game than Janna.
*though to be fair, probably not on Sona. Lulu can't auto fast enough to not get picked apart. If she E's you she can probably land the Q, but won't do well on the trade and will run oom way too fast. Braum just gets shit on since you don't shield until he attempts to hit you with a Q at which point you dodge it with your shield speedup and ruin his day since he has no way to get near you or do damage to you.
Sure Karma alone if fighting will be stronger than Janna, but you have to look at what their kit actually do and the fact this is a team game. Once you start grouping Janna is the epitome of a "controller" team based support, your comparison is like trying to compare Malphite and Yi.
You generally want to use attack speed reds on Lulu so she can attack fairly fast and abuse her long attack range (Cait and Ashe are the only frequently played opponents in botlane that outrange her) - Lulu is a fairly weak support at the moment that much I will concede. But seriously. You've tunneled way too hard on Karma's niche strengths. Karma just like Lulu is very fun to play, but to say Karma is superior to S-tier soloQ supports like Soraka/Janna when their playstyle is completely different is just ehhh.
Outside of a "fun factor" I cannot see why you'd play Karma instead of Sona.
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It also doesn't matter. Its a zoning tool as well. You shoot it, your team gets free autos on a tower or the last few hits on dragon then you back away because Karma is bad at fights even if she gets a 5 man mantra E.
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I don't really see the point in discussing a support's potential with rank 3 ultimate; in like 90% of my games I don't even hit level 16 as support. You're also not going to get your root on W past 1.5 seconds unless you only put 1 point into Q, which is pretty bad. Generally, it's ideal to put 3 points into Q, then max E. Mantra Q is only potentially hard to land at close distances; if you use it at the right distance, the AoE makes it nearly impossible to dodge without a dash/blink.
Sona is fun to play because you can just go ham in lane, but she's garbage.
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On May 03 2016 14:01 JimmiC wrote:
Does scip still read this thread just not post. I miss his definitive posts on jungling.
Me too. Scip pls we need your sexiness <3
The thing I hate about Dynamic queue is the player variance. I feel like every game one guy is at least league higher than his lane opponent.
I know LoL has always been real snowbally, but my last 3 games have ended before 20 minutes with a nexus kill.
o.O
Fastest 3 games of my LoL Career. Maybe its just cuz i'm bad.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
And I'm still waiting here for Riot to bring back solo queue ;-( Dynamic queue is a bad experience, damn.
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On May 03 2016 15:03 739 wrote:
And I'm still waiting here for Riot to bring back solo queue ;-( Dynamic queue is a bad experience, damn.
It's not happening though...
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I don't play that much these days(maybe 0-10 games a week) but honestly noticed zero difference in game quality. Is it just much more noticeable if you play a lot at higher levels? If I didn't read anything about dynamic queue I'd have no idea they changed anything.
edit: I mean people always vary between cancerous fucks and reasonable individuals. If anything feels like there are less cancerous fucks these days but maybe that's just because I'm playing so little.
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After playing against it a few times, I'm not sure what Taric brings to lane against ranged supports. I'm sure he's great against melee supports, but his early laning against ranged supports is probably best described as abysmal. Low kill pressure, obvious combo with horrific cooldowns. So long as you keep spacing he's unlikely to even get more than a single auto attack off after a stun, before his carry gets zoned off for the next dozen seconds or so.
I mean his ult is baller, but he has to hit 6 to use it.
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yeah, taric lane phase is actually bad, however, he really becomes very strong after that, so its basically a trade off
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with the right pairing taric is oppressive in lane.
Try playing against twitch stealth stuns on your ranged support or lucian dash stuns lol
with the wrong pairing his lane phase is very bad yes. You need some sort of reposition or stealth.
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Who cares though? Just keeping up really isn't very hard in this game at all. Laning doesn't matter much.
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First real workout in a long time. I can tell I'm going to be sore while running tomorrow.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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I'm real pumped about them removing catch up experience from the jungle.
Love it.
I missed that change when it was in the PBE.
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That kit seems decidedly meh.
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Riot managed to properly articulate why I hated lane swaps so much
"8/10 players playing PvE"
so dumb holy shit
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so I'm pretty sure there is a typo in case any of you are looking forward to playing Swain (not that this should deter you)
it lists his E as going UP to 1.0 ratio, while it is a 1.0 ratio on live so I think it got typed in backwards because it was nerfed on the pbe
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That's cool and all, but that's pretty much all the kit has going for it as far as getting me hype.
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United States37500 Posts
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EPT![[image loading]](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-B3PXxCgoNpo/Vxa6sczIXKI/AAAAAAAA5-8/qTh5_aVpCcwXX8UlgS4Dr8RGtGipZTtVACLcB/s640/veh.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tu-FDUOEWO8/VxaZ_6wPz7I/AAAAAAAANz4/PXtZWWZh3vca4Hs6MRNufGefkxjcQ9H8wCLcB/s400/lost%2Bchapter.jpg)
