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On September 03 2015 23:45 Numy wrote:Yes if he won 14 straight games his ELO would be higher than when he started but that doesn't mean he couldn't still have the same mmr as a person in a lower division. As I explained the disconnect comes from the promotion series. The only time the system adjusts itself is when someone skips divisions after promotions but someone winning more than losing but still failing promos has a different ELO than what his division is. The only other time this matters is when the system breaks due to too few players. If you play at odd hours with too few people then games may become lopsided due to the system prioritizing finding you a game over finding the best match. This can also happen if you at the very peak of the ladder as there are fewer people there. At diamond level during non-odd hours this shouldn't matter. Seriously we all being civil trying to have a discussion and explain how it works but all you want to do is insult everyone constantly. No one is "fanboying" riot. This is just how the system works. Stop being such an asshole. Ban system itself is a different story to complaining about random order vs non-random. Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 23:43 nafta wrote:
On euw it might not happen as much cuz there are a lot more players but for example in tr there are games with d5 at d5/4 mmr and challengers in the same game. If you play like late at night you can definitely get matched in super broken games dunno why do you guys say you can't. Also the higher you go the more you realize how important it is to ban the one trick ponies. No one is saying you can't. Just you won't be likely to unless you play odd hours, at the top of the ladder or on a tiny server. Diamond 5-3 on NA aren't the latter so it's only the former that can happen.
you want me to be civil when the first thing you say is that promo games, which at their most effective would be you losing 1-2 and being off one game, is the same as winning 14 games in a row and therefore these d5s are probably the same mmr as d3 because they failed 14 promos in a row hurrdurr?
How about you stop saying asinine shit to defend riot and we can get somewhere
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South Africa35471 Posts
It's only different in edge cases. I guess you could say the previous was superior as the edge cases got a better deal?
On September 03 2015 23:51 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 23:45 Numy wrote:Yes if he won 14 straight games his ELO would be higher than when he started but that doesn't mean he couldn't still have the same mmr as a person in a lower division. As I explained the disconnect comes from the promotion series. The only time the system adjusts itself is when someone skips divisions after promotions but someone winning more than losing but still failing promos has a different ELO than what his division is. The only other time this matters is when the system breaks due to too few players. If you play at odd hours with too few people then games may become lopsided due to the system prioritizing finding you a game over finding the best match. This can also happen if you at the very peak of the ladder as there are fewer people there. At diamond level during non-odd hours this shouldn't matter. Seriously we all being civil trying to have a discussion and explain how it works but all you want to do is insult everyone constantly. No one is "fanboying" riot. This is just how the system works. Stop being such an asshole. Ban system itself is a different story to complaining about random order vs non-random. On September 03 2015 23:43 nafta wrote:
On euw it might not happen as much cuz there are a lot more players but for example in tr there are games with d5 at d5/4 mmr and challengers in the same game. If you play like late at night you can definitely get matched in super broken games dunno why do you guys say you can't. Also the higher you go the more you realize how important it is to ban the one trick ponies. No one is saying you can't. Just you won't be likely to unless you play odd hours, at the top of the ladder or on a tiny server. Diamond 5-3 on NA aren't the latter so it's only the former that can happen. you want me to be civil when the first thing you say is that promo games, which at their most effective would be you losing 1-2 and being off one game, is the same as winning 14 games in a row and therefore these d5s are probably the same mmr as d3 because they failed 14 promos in a row hurrdurr? How about you stop saying asinine shit to defend riot and we can get somewhere
Better shut down the Lounge lol.
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do you honestly believe they failed 14 promos in a row? im just trying to see if you actually have a line of thought here or if you're just trolling.
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On September 03 2015 23:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
guess what, winning 14 straight times probably boosted your MMR quite a bit.
the riot fanboying and picking and choosing is pretty crazy here.
I hope you guys arent the type to complain when you get crit 4 times in a row by an IE only jinx, because you are promoting pointless randomness that shouldnt exist. For a company that says they want to cleanup inconsistency champion select is one of the most volatile parts of a game ive ever come across.
If you guys are so content to say that the MMR is so little difference that it doesnt matter then it brings me back to my original point: why the hell does one guy have all the power in the bans while everyone else gets jack shit?
On September 03 2015 23:25 Alaric wrote:
So a guy in Diamond III will always ban better than a guy in Diamond IV, and he will certainly not troll ban ever, nor rage, nor first pick something dumb.
The order of magnitude between these variations is tremendous and will decide most games alones, before the other 3-4 guys in each even pick a champion, nevermind the game being played.
For the same irrefutable logic you provide us with, the next game when the Diamond III player will be the lowest ranked amongst his team, he will be the liability that would do troll bans and ruin champ select and rage, while the Diamond II guy would be a paragon who would set the whole team on the path to victory.
Well, you show me how not to ignore that point then.
You're still arguing that someone in a higher division is so much better at banning, and that banning is so important that (even if all the obviously OP Azir or pre-hotfix Skarner) it can decide a game by itself, here and there.
And also implying that the "banning skill" gets up significantly as you gain Elo, moreso than stuff like mechanics or ingame decision-making. I'll allow myself some healthy measure of doubt.
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On September 03 2015 23:54 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 23:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
guess what, winning 14 straight times probably boosted your MMR quite a bit.
the riot fanboying and picking and choosing is pretty crazy here.
I hope you guys arent the type to complain when you get crit 4 times in a row by an IE only jinx, because you are promoting pointless randomness that shouldnt exist. For a company that says they want to cleanup inconsistency champion select is one of the most volatile parts of a game ive ever come across.
If you guys are so content to say that the MMR is so little difference that it doesnt matter then it brings me back to my original point: why the hell does one guy have all the power in the bans while everyone else gets jack shit? Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 23:25 Alaric wrote:
So a guy in Diamond III will always ban better than a guy in Diamond IV, and he will certainly not troll ban ever, nor rage, nor first pick something dumb.
The order of magnitude between these variations is tremendous and will decide most games alones, before the other 3-4 guys in each even pick a champion, nevermind the game being played.
For the same irrefutable logic you provide us with, the next game when the Diamond III player will be the lowest ranked amongst his team, he will be the liability that would do troll bans and ruin champ select and rage, while the Diamond II guy would be a paragon who would set the whole team on the path to victory. Well, you show me how not to ignore that point then. You're still arguing that someone in a higher division is so much better at banning, and that banning is so important that (even if all the obviously OP Azir or pre-hotfix Skarner) it can decide a game by itself, here and there. And also implying that the "banning skill" gets up significantly as you gain Elo, moreso than stuff like mechanics or ingame decision-making. I'll allow myself some healthy measure of doubt.
yup ive already stated pretty clearly that I would be annoyed if I was d1 (maybe even in my master promos) and the system let the D3 do the banning for my game and gave me last pick and I got stuck supporting people at a way worse MMR then me, that clearly isn't fair to me. ive said that at least 20 times.
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On September 03 2015 23:49 Caiada wrote:
It was still functionally random before. Now they're just saying it. It's basically just a semantic difference if you have any understanding at all how MMR and matchmaking work.
it wasnt though at all. In early seasons 1 and 2 it was really obvious when you were in a high MMR game because you would see hotshotGG as your captain and then a bunch of other "known people" and then you are 4th pick or last pick or whatever. And the number was right there to see for everybody so you could see actually how many wins apart you were from eachother and 5th and 1st pick were SUBSTANTIAL.
so I don't know why you are spouting nonsense when I've been around for every iteration riot has done.
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South Africa35471 Posts
On September 03 2015 23:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
do you honestly believe they failed 14 promos in a row? im just trying to see if you actually have a line of thought here or if you're just trolling.
Well let me put it this way. If that person that won 14 games in a row is in a game with someone that is in a lower division than the system believes the difference in MMR between the two is within the normal MMR variance. For the majority of cases this would be correct. Streaks are pretty normal and go both ways. It's entirely possible it's an edge case that once again I explained can happen due to certain circumstances but are rather rare for the average player on a large server.
As for your reply to Alaric. It's the exact same situation. If a diamond 1 is playing in a game with people lower than him than the difference between their MMRs is not statically meaningful unless it's an edge against again. So as people have said this system is the same as the previous system in all except edge cases. That alone may make the previous one a bit superior but then there's the issue of people not understanding how ELO works.
Anyway everyone here has done a pretty good job I feel of explaining how the system works. You see seem utterly confused by it all. I suggest reading up on ELO(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system) yourself and maybe that will help break through the wall in your mind.
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On September 03 2015 23:56 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 23:54 Alaric wrote:On September 03 2015 23:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
guess what, winning 14 straight times probably boosted your MMR quite a bit.
the riot fanboying and picking and choosing is pretty crazy here.
I hope you guys arent the type to complain when you get crit 4 times in a row by an IE only jinx, because you are promoting pointless randomness that shouldnt exist. For a company that says they want to cleanup inconsistency champion select is one of the most volatile parts of a game ive ever come across.
If you guys are so content to say that the MMR is so little difference that it doesnt matter then it brings me back to my original point: why the hell does one guy have all the power in the bans while everyone else gets jack shit? On September 03 2015 23:25 Alaric wrote:
So a guy in Diamond III will always ban better than a guy in Diamond IV, and he will certainly not troll ban ever, nor rage, nor first pick something dumb.
The order of magnitude between these variations is tremendous and will decide most games alones, before the other 3-4 guys in each even pick a champion, nevermind the game being played.
For the same irrefutable logic you provide us with, the next game when the Diamond III player will be the lowest ranked amongst his team, he will be the liability that would do troll bans and ruin champ select and rage, while the Diamond II guy would be a paragon who would set the whole team on the path to victory. Well, you show me how not to ignore that point then. You're still arguing that someone in a higher division is so much better at banning, and that banning is so important that (even if all the obviously OP Azir or pre-hotfix Skarner) it can decide a game by itself, here and there. And also implying that the "banning skill" gets up significantly as you gain Elo, moreso than stuff like mechanics or ingame decision-making. I'll allow myself some healthy measure of doubt. yup ive already stated pretty clearly that I would be annoyed if I was d1 (maybe even in my master promos) and the system let the D3 do the banning for my game and gave me last pick and I got stuck supporting people at a way worse MMR then me, that clearly isn't fair to me. ive said that at least 20 times.
Which totally misses the point.
Would you be less annoyed that a D II would get first pick rather than a D III?
If you were D III, what would you think of first pick being D II? And if he troll bans/troll picks/rages/whatever, will you take it in stride and say nothing because "he's higher than me so I would have banned/picked worse than he did"?
Would you answer "People don't rage or troll ban or make dubious ban decisions D II and higher" to the previous question?
If yes, do you believe than the gap in "banning skill" between even a single division is enough to decide the game here and there in the overwhelming majority of cases?
On September 03 2015 23:58 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 23:49 Caiada wrote:
It was still functionally random before. Now they're just saying it. It's basically just a semantic difference if you have any understanding at all how MMR and matchmaking work. it wasnt though at all. In early seasons 1 and 2 it was really obvious when you were in a high MMR game because you would see hotshotGG as your captain and then a bunch of other "known people" and then you are 4th pick or last pick or whatever. And the number was right there to see for everybody so you could see actually how many wins apart you were from eachother and 5th and 1st pick were SUBSTANTIAL. so I don't know why you are spouting nonsense when I've been around for every iteration riot has done.
And you don't perceive the fact that "known" people keep going up against each other is the sign of a shallow player pool, which in itself could easily explain wider than average gaps between players? Especially when talking about season 1 (or early in the seasons, not sure what you meant exactly)?
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On September 04 2015 00:01 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 23:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
do you honestly believe they failed 14 promos in a row? im just trying to see if you actually have a line of thought here or if you're just trolling. Well let me put it this way. If that person that won 14 games in a row is in a game with someone that is in a lower division than the system believes the difference in MMR between the two is within the normal MMR variance. For the majority of cases this would be correct. Streaks are pretty normal and go both ways. It's entirely possible it's an edge case that once again I explained can happen due to certain circumstances but are rather rare for the average player on a large server. As for your reply to Alaric. It's the exact same situation. If a diamond 1 is playing in a game with people lower than him than the difference between their MMRs is not statically meaningful unless it's an edge against again. So as people have said this system is the same as the previous system in all except edge cases. Anyway everyone here has done a pretty good job I feel of explaining how the system works. You see seem utterly confused by it all. I suggest reading up on ELO(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system) yourself and maybe that will help break through the wall in your mind.
lol you have the audacity to complain about civility and add that last paragarph? fuck you kiddo.
it's you that doesnt know shit about how the system works, it matches up MMRs, it doesnt give a shit about players on the same team maybe you should check out this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism to help yourself figure out your condition :^)
User was temp banned for this post.
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It would be cool if they would make yorick into a jungler,which revives the jungle camps he kills,each camp has a unique ability,so you go gank a lane with golems which can stun or something.
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On September 04 2015 00:07 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 00:01 Numy wrote:On September 03 2015 23:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
do you honestly believe they failed 14 promos in a row? im just trying to see if you actually have a line of thought here or if you're just trolling. Well let me put it this way. If that person that won 14 games in a row is in a game with someone that is in a lower division than the system believes the difference in MMR between the two is within the normal MMR variance. For the majority of cases this would be correct. Streaks are pretty normal and go both ways. It's entirely possible it's an edge case that once again I explained can happen due to certain circumstances but are rather rare for the average player on a large server. As for your reply to Alaric. It's the exact same situation. If a diamond 1 is playing in a game with people lower than him than the difference between their MMRs is not statically meaningful unless it's an edge against again. So as people have said this system is the same as the previous system in all except edge cases. Anyway everyone here has done a pretty good job I feel of explaining how the system works. You see seem utterly confused by it all. I suggest reading up on ELO(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system) yourself and maybe that will help break through the wall in your mind. lol you have the audacity to complain about civility and add that last paragarph? fuck you kiddo. it's you that doesnt know shit about how the system works, it matches up MMRs, it doesnt give a shit about players on the same team maybe you should check out this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism to help yourself figure out your condition :^)
Fascinating discussion strategy.
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On September 04 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 23:56 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 03 2015 23:54 Alaric wrote:On September 03 2015 23:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
guess what, winning 14 straight times probably boosted your MMR quite a bit.
the riot fanboying and picking and choosing is pretty crazy here.
I hope you guys arent the type to complain when you get crit 4 times in a row by an IE only jinx, because you are promoting pointless randomness that shouldnt exist. For a company that says they want to cleanup inconsistency champion select is one of the most volatile parts of a game ive ever come across.
If you guys are so content to say that the MMR is so little difference that it doesnt matter then it brings me back to my original point: why the hell does one guy have all the power in the bans while everyone else gets jack shit? On September 03 2015 23:25 Alaric wrote:
So a guy in Diamond III will always ban better than a guy in Diamond IV, and he will certainly not troll ban ever, nor rage, nor first pick something dumb.
The order of magnitude between these variations is tremendous and will decide most games alones, before the other 3-4 guys in each even pick a champion, nevermind the game being played.
For the same irrefutable logic you provide us with, the next game when the Diamond III player will be the lowest ranked amongst his team, he will be the liability that would do troll bans and ruin champ select and rage, while the Diamond II guy would be a paragon who would set the whole team on the path to victory. Well, you show me how not to ignore that point then. You're still arguing that someone in a higher division is so much better at banning, and that banning is so important that (even if all the obviously OP Azir or pre-hotfix Skarner) it can decide a game by itself, here and there. And also implying that the "banning skill" gets up significantly as you gain Elo, moreso than stuff like mechanics or ingame decision-making. I'll allow myself some healthy measure of doubt. yup ive already stated pretty clearly that I would be annoyed if I was d1 (maybe even in my master promos) and the system let the D3 do the banning for my game and gave me last pick and I got stuck supporting people at a way worse MMR then me, that clearly isn't fair to me. ive said that at least 20 times. Which totally misses the point. Would you be less annoyed that a D II would get first pick rather than a D III? If you were D III, what would you think of first pick being D II? And if he troll bans/troll picks/rages/whatever, will you take it in stride and say nothing because "he's higher than me so I would have banned/picked worse than he did"? Would you answer "People don't rage or troll ban or make dubious ban decisions D II and higher" to the previous question? If yes, do you believe than the gap in "banning skill" between even a single division is enough to decide the game here and there in the overwhelming majority of cases? Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 23:58 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 03 2015 23:49 Caiada wrote:
It was still functionally random before. Now they're just saying it. It's basically just a semantic difference if you have any understanding at all how MMR and matchmaking work. it wasnt though at all. In early seasons 1 and 2 it was really obvious when you were in a high MMR game because you would see hotshotGG as your captain and then a bunch of other "known people" and then you are 4th pick or last pick or whatever. And the number was right there to see for everybody so you could see actually how many wins apart you were from eachother and 5th and 1st pick were SUBSTANTIAL. so I don't know why you are spouting nonsense when I've been around for every iteration riot has done. And you don't perceive the fact that "known" people keep going up against each other is the sign of a shallow player pool, which in itself could easily explain wider than average gaps between players? Especially when talking about season 1 (or early in the seasons, not sure what you meant exactly)?
I agree with everything you said. you should be rewarded for having a higher MMR, its not my place to say there bans are bad if im lower MMR. but this is pointless because the original point is that all 5 people should get 1 ban, not be frontloaded on one person that gets all 3 bans AND gets first pick.
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It's always fun when somebody makes it *really clear* arguing with them is pointless.
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On September 04 2015 00:10 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 00:07 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 04 2015 00:01 Numy wrote:On September 03 2015 23:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
do you honestly believe they failed 14 promos in a row? im just trying to see if you actually have a line of thought here or if you're just trolling. Well let me put it this way. If that person that won 14 games in a row is in a game with someone that is in a lower division than the system believes the difference in MMR between the two is within the normal MMR variance. For the majority of cases this would be correct. Streaks are pretty normal and go both ways. It's entirely possible it's an edge case that once again I explained can happen due to certain circumstances but are rather rare for the average player on a large server. As for your reply to Alaric. It's the exact same situation. If a diamond 1 is playing in a game with people lower than him than the difference between their MMRs is not statically meaningful unless it's an edge against again. So as people have said this system is the same as the previous system in all except edge cases. Anyway everyone here has done a pretty good job I feel of explaining how the system works. You see seem utterly confused by it all. I suggest reading up on ELO(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system) yourself and maybe that will help break through the wall in your mind. lol you have the audacity to complain about civility and add that last paragarph? fuck you kiddo. it's you that doesnt know shit about how the system works, it matches up MMRs, it doesnt give a shit about players on the same team maybe you should check out this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism to help yourself figure out your condition :^) Fascinating discussion strategy.
I dont have time for people like numy that are just passively aggressively trolling. like telling me to look up ELO on wiki, the fuck? is this reddit?
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South Africa35471 Posts
I was attempting to find a different avenue to this discussion as the prior ones weren't yielding any results. Mental blocks happen. It's frustrating when you become so fixated on one solution that you can't see any other. I know that feeling all too well. Unfortunate you took it the way you did.
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On September 04 2015 00:16 Numy wrote:
I was attempting to find a different avenue to this discussion as the prior ones weren't yielding any results. Mental blocks happen. It's frustrating when you become so fixated on one solution that you can't see any other. I know that feeling all too well. Unfortunate you took it the way you did.
I wasnt aware anyone had provided a solution that was better then giving 5 bans and 1 to each player but I would be amazed if you quoted it!
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On September 04 2015 00:14 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 00:10 jcarlsoniv wrote:On September 04 2015 00:07 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 04 2015 00:01 Numy wrote:On September 03 2015 23:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
do you honestly believe they failed 14 promos in a row? im just trying to see if you actually have a line of thought here or if you're just trolling. Well let me put it this way. If that person that won 14 games in a row is in a game with someone that is in a lower division than the system believes the difference in MMR between the two is within the normal MMR variance. For the majority of cases this would be correct. Streaks are pretty normal and go both ways. It's entirely possible it's an edge case that once again I explained can happen due to certain circumstances but are rather rare for the average player on a large server. As for your reply to Alaric. It's the exact same situation. If a diamond 1 is playing in a game with people lower than him than the difference between their MMRs is not statically meaningful unless it's an edge against again. So as people have said this system is the same as the previous system in all except edge cases. Anyway everyone here has done a pretty good job I feel of explaining how the system works. You see seem utterly confused by it all. I suggest reading up on ELO(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system) yourself and maybe that will help break through the wall in your mind. lol you have the audacity to complain about civility and add that last paragarph? fuck you kiddo. it's you that doesnt know shit about how the system works, it matches up MMRs, it doesnt give a shit about players on the same team maybe you should check out this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism to help yourself figure out your condition :^) Fascinating discussion strategy. I dont have time for people like numy that are just passively aggressively trolling. like telling me to look up ELO on wiki, the fuck? is this reddit?
It is very clear that he (and other people here) are trying to have a discussion with you. You are being incredibly aggressive over something that, honestly, is a fairly minor issue.
I find your "1 ban per player" idea quite interesting, admittedly. But everything you say is joined with anger and, frankly, an unacceptable attitude.
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If you could explain how pick order determined by MMR was somehow better than random, that'd be cool, since that's what your argument was actually about.
I think, outside of obvious shit like Skarner/pre-nerf Elise and some others, people put way too much stock in bans outside of a competitive environment. I think there should be a proper competitive draft mode (and have no idea what it'd look like, probably not Dota's), but for soloq, it's honestly hard to give a shit.
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I'm gonna go back to this question then:
do you believe than the gap in "banning skill" between even a single division is enough to decide the game here and there in the overwhelming majority of cases?
Usually, higher Elo means someone wins more games on average (in the long term) or is on a win streak. What it doesn't say is how this person wins games.
I am higher Elo than most of the people I regularly play with (well not atm, tons of rust to remove and all that), by around a full league if I trained back up some. However some of them are clearly better than me in their roles, so in the old system just because I'm first pick wouldn't mean I'm the best marksman player.
Same goes with bans, just because someone is higher, doesn't mean that he gets significantly more wins through "superior banning skills". You could assume that on average, someone higher could be more knowledgeable (just like you can reasonably assume that on average, higher Elo means better mechanics, I'm just an outlier), however arguing that this alone is the deciding factor of a decent chunk of your games is the part where you get unreasonable.
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I've been quite enjoying Voli jungle, as his Health scaling on his passive + Bite makes Cinderhulk first quite good on him.
Has anyone seen/played him top lately? I seem to see top being still a pretty tanky slugfest. Voli was never the best top laner, but could do is passably depending on the opponent.
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EPT
