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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On September 03 2015 22:22 Caiada wrote: It was always functionally random because of matchmaking variance; that argument makes no sense. not even sure what you are referring to here | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
He's referring to 5 people being within less than 100 Elo from each other and the guys shown as higher feelig justified in harassing the others or acting superior despite the gap basically being one or two games apart for each of them, thus susceptible to switch around on any given day. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
Maybe that's not true for diamond and higher but MMR differences are very small at gold and below where most people play. edit: super ninja-ed. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 03 2015 23:01 VayneAuthority wrote: not even sure what you are referring to here All the people within the game are close enough ELO that normal variance alone means neither of them are higher or lower than the other. This is partly why they changed the ranked system to have this layer of confusion on it instead of just straight ELO. People don't understand that the actual ELO number doesn't mean that much as there's a degree with variance attached to it. So someone that is 1350 isn't really above someone that is 1320 etc. as you can expect that 1350 person to swing up and down a decent amount. You get higher when your up swings are bigger than your down swings. The only time you should have a big difference in ELO between players is when matchmaking system breaks. This shouldn't happen if there's enough players but I think the system prioritizes finding a game at the very top so you may find such things happen if you up there. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On September 03 2015 23:04 Caiada wrote: Unless the matchmaking system fucked up, which, since you're not in masters/challenger, I can practically guarantee it did not, there's not a statistically significant MMR gap between you and any other random person you may meet excepting duos. So it was random anyway; they just didn't tell you. All they did was remove a middleman. it didnt fuck up, im saying its inconsistent. for example what happens a lot is you get 1 d3 3 d4 1 d5, they get the same. your d5 does bans, there d3 does bans. the game has already started at a heavy and inconsistent imbalance, regardless of what you think. it is imbalance in the purest form. not to mention you are playing roulette to see who got the d5 rager thats gonna ruin the game for 1 team | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
The divisions are meant to show the "bracket of variance" you are in but they fucked it by introducing the promotion series. Now a person can get stuck at promotions but their ELO can still rise so there forms a disconnect between the graphical representation and reality. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On September 03 2015 23:09 Numy wrote: d3 vs d4 vs d5 etc. doesn't matter if they all in the same game it means they all within the same ELO. The division system is merely graphical and has no weight on the actual game. facepalm, this is so wrong. the only goal of matchmaking is to create a a median, hence why there are so many stomps, especially in diamond. you have to win so many games to get from d5 to d3 how the hell is that even remotely similar? D5 60 points to D3 would be, with 15 point averages as a highly decided account 14 STRAIGHT WINS thats not even remotely similar | ||
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JJMC
Portugal83 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
The order of magnitude between these variations is tremendous and will decide most games alones, before the other 3-4 guys in each even pick a champion, nevermind the game being played. For the same irrefutable logic you provide us with, the next game when the Diamond III player will be the lowest ranked amongst his team, he will be the liability that would do troll bans and ruin champ select and rage, while the Diamond II guy would be a paragon who would set the whole team on the path to victory. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
On September 03 2015 23:11 VayneAuthority wrote: facepalm, this is so wrong. the only goal of matchmaking is to create a a median, hence why there are so many stomps, especially in diamond. you have to win so many games to get from d5 to d3 how the hell is that even remotely similar? D5 60 points to D3 would be, with 15 point averages as a highly decided account 14 STRAIGHT WINS thats not even remotely similar Dude do you even know how the matchmaking works? It has this hidden thing called MMR or ELO or whichever name you prefer on which it bases it's matchmaking. This is basically the same system as chess, and your league/division has nothing to do with it. Also D3 and D5 having completely different metas is just not true, from firsthand experience. | ||
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SHr3DD3r
Pakistan2137 Posts
On September 03 2015 23:29 Fildun wrote: Dude do you even know how the matchmaking works? It has this hidden thing called MMR or ELO or whichever name you prefer on which it bases it's matchmaking. This is basically the same system as chess, and your league/division has nothing to do with it. Also D3 and D5 having completely different metas is just not true, from firsthand experience. Except that, before when LoL had the ELO system, the pick order was determined by your ELO/MMR. And even in the beginning of the League/Division system, the one with the highest MMR was doing ban/pick. They actually consciously removed it and randomized it. For some reason. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
On September 03 2015 23:32 SHr3DD3r wrote: Except that, before when LoL had the ELO system, the pick order was determined by your ELO/MMR. And even in the beginning of the League/Division system, the one with the highest MMR was doing ban/pick. They actually consciously removed it and randomized it. For some reason. I know, I played back then, but that was not the point I was arguing. The point I was arguing was that saying person A is d5 and person B is d3 means absolutely nothing, since matchmaking is still based on ELO/MMR. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
the riot fanboying and picking and choosing is pretty crazy here. I hope you guys arent the type to complain when you get crit 4 times in a row by an IE only jinx, because you are promoting pointless randomness that shouldnt exist. For a company that says they want to cleanup inconsistency champion select is one of the most volatile parts of a game ive ever come across. If you guys are so content to say that the MMR is so little difference that it doesnt matter then it brings me back to my original point: why the hell does one guy have all the power in the bans while everyone else gets jack shit? | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
On September 03 2015 23:38 VayneAuthority wrote: guess what, winning 14 straight times probably boosted your MMR quite a bit. the riot fanboying and picking and choosing is pretty crazy here. I hope you guys arent the type to complain when you get crit 4 times in a row by an IE only jinx, because you are promoting pointless randomness that shouldnt exist. For a company that says they want to cleanup inconsistency champion select is one of the most volatile parts of a game ive ever come across. If you guys are so content to say that the MMR is so little difference that it doesnt matter then it brings me back to my original point: why the hell does one guy have all the power in the bans while everyone else gets jack shit? Because it doesn't matter that one guy has the power? That's exactly what you're saying if you say the MMR has so little difference that it doesn't matter. What do the first 2 sentences even mean? I mean if you're just salty about some random ranked game you could also just say that. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
The only other time this matters is when the system breaks due to too few players. If you play at odd hours with too few people then games may become lopsided due to the system prioritizing finding you a game over finding the best match. This can also happen if you at the very peak of the ladder as there are fewer people there. At diamond level during non-odd hours this shouldn't matter. Seriously we all being civil trying to have a discussion and explain how it works but all you want to do is insult everyone constantly. No one is "fanboying" riot. This is just how the system works. Stop being such an asshole. Ban system itself is a different story to complaining about random order vs non-random. On September 03 2015 23:43 nafta wrote: On euw it might not happen as much cuz there are a lot more players but for example in tr there are games with d5 at d5/4 mmr and challengers in the same game. If you play like late at night you can definitely get matched in super broken games dunno why do you guys say you can't. Also the higher you go the more you realize how important it is to ban the one trick ponies. No one is saying you can't. Just you won't be likely to unless you play odd hours, at the top of the ladder or on a tiny server. Diamond 5-3 on NA aren't the latter so it's only the former that can happen. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On September 03 2015 23:45 Fildun wrote: Because it doesn't matter that one guy has the power? That's exactly what you're saying if you say the MMR has so little difference that it doesn't matter. What do the first 2 sentences even mean? I mean if you're just salty about some random ranked game you could also just say that. ive been salty ever since they changed the system for years now, I absolutely hate anything random it annoys the hell out of me. Thats why I dont play adc besides champs that don't tend to get crit like varus/vayne. because it would be fine if the skill level difference was high and one guy got all the bans because he was higher MMR, but if everyone is pretty much the same then one guy SHOULD NOT be getting to do all 3 bans, its completely unfair to be random. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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