EPT[Public Beta Environment] General Discussion - Page 16
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On October 01 2015 14:38 Goumindong wrote: I haven't looked at the changes yet (on a phone) but I always thought that riven was one of the best designed melee champions and I don't really understand changing her Curious, what makes you say she is well designed? I don't necessarily disagree with you, but there is an incredibly vocal anti riven push that seems to have always been around spouting how terrible she is. I don't really care for the champ and the change, but I don't see why it had to happen. Unless I'm misunderstanding, the new system seems like it would be better in some instances, but worse in others. So it will end up being a side grade, which again is confusing, because sure she is a snowballer in solo queue, but there are a bunch of champs like that. Plus she showed up enough in competitive to be super interesting when she was picked. It's a head scratcher. I did always hate she used no resource, but I believe everyone should use mana anyway. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
She has the same strategy of renekton where you can dash in, CC your opponent and get out with no possible trade action from your opponent if done correctly. Except there is no trade off for this laning phase, she is strong at all points of the game, and unbearable if ahead. So your only strategy is to pick a champion that can deal with that, which is why renekton in particular is really good against her. Otherwise its just an unfun lane where she continually harasses you while you just try to push in the wave so you dont have to deal with that bs. Because as soon as you are 60% hp on any champion really she can finish you easily and end your laning phase with 1 death Not to say that she's op, just incredibly binary and poorly designed | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
I think the change is to commit to her being harder to play with the animation cancelling and make it more obvious that that's what you need to do to be good at her. The execute removal is probably a conveyance thing and also makes her more scary outside of lane to more targets. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On October 01 2015 20:17 JazzVortical wrote: Curious, what makes you say she is well designed? I don't necessarily disagree with you, but there is an incredibly vocal anti riven push that seems to have always been around spouting how terrible she is. There are basically two kinds of ways you can make a melee fighter and this relates not to their role of playstyle but the path they take to enter into and navigate fights. You can be linear or non-linear. This doesn't mean riven can't go straight at you but that it's not necessary. Linear champions can only go in one direction and that is in, generally with a targeted dash or close or stun. But they have no out with an untargeted dash. Linear champions, as fighters, have problems because there is little skill component in their success either they're stronger and they get in range and their target dies or they're not. This makes linear fighters really hard to balance (And ideally they need some sort of dodge or mechanical outplay ability in order to make them balancible) because you're either stronger, win and are even stronger; or you're weaker, lose and are even weaker. Riven however, being non-linear is entirely based in mechanical and game sense skill. Additionally she has no unfun or tricky mechanics like stealth or intargetability. You know her range, her range doesn't change, you know her dash pattern, her dash pattern doesn't change. This means that you can basically give riven power without things swinging super far in one direction. I mean as it stands this is one of the highest win rates riven has seen and it's like 52%. That is pretty good as far as balance is concerned. Other competitive fighters shoot up to ridiculous numbers when they get strong (cough Xin zhao) The problem that most people have with riven is actually that they're playing a poorly designed champion or the type of champion that riven is designed to beat(like a team fight engage champion) That is they're playing a linear champion and then they lose a fight and lose it forever. Or maybe they win and then riven outplays them and they expected to win forever. Either way they're playing a champion with no outplay potential and getting into fights with a champion that can outplay them. Maybe this is because I play support so much. But I never really feared a riven in a team fight. I would just peel her and she would die, even if she was ahead. And you can always peel her, because she can't troll poll you or whatnot. So if you miss, it's your own damn fault. Edit: think about what happens when a champion becomes strong and enters the meta. If they're a very simple linear forward champion you get a lot of posts like "holy shit this is freelo". But despite all the complaining about riven very few people are ever like "just played riven and it was total freelo" no people post their 10 win page with their first 10 riven games like they might once they discovered Veigar or Xin or something. And sure there are good riven players. But good riven players are good because the champion allows them to be good, not because the champion is too strong. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
I believe this is also why Riven does extremely poorly in lower elo while simultaneously broken in higher elo. There was a time where Riven's autocancel got removed on PBE. I actually thought it was done on purpose for a while - but at the end it seems that it was not intended. If I ignore her autocancel for a second, I think Riven is actually pretty well designed. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Most all champions have animation cancels. Abilities almost always cancel on all of auto attacks, movement commands, and ability commands. But for Riven, her Q only cancels on a move command. This means that the standard mechanical solution for a combo on an auto weaving champion is Ability, AA, Ability, AA. But for riven to maximize damage its Ability, move, AA, ability, move, AA. And, additionally its important to note that because you have to move your mouse in between all of these(or you will Q in the wrong direction, click a champion/monster and not hit the move command and miss the cancel, or miss your intended target as you come back after the move command) its a very precise structure. Because of this its hard to balance riven against players of varying mechanical skill. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
On October 02 2015 10:30 Goumindong wrote: I think its less her auto attack cancel and more her Q cancel. Most all champions have animation cancels. Abilities almost always cancel on all of auto attacks, movement commands, and ability commands. But for Riven, her Q only cancels on a move command. This means that the standard mechanical solution for a combo on an auto weaving champion is Ability, AA, Ability, AA. But for riven to maximize damage its Ability, move, AA, ability, move, AA. And, additionally its important to note that because you have to move your mouse in between all of these(or you will Q in the wrong direction, click a champion/monster and not hit the move command and miss the cancel, or miss your intended target as you come back after the move command) its a very precise structure. Because of this its hard to balance riven against players of varying mechanical skill. You can find wiggle room by issuing your attack with attack move, but yes. Q canceling is a bitch to learn properly. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 02 2015 10:38 Gahlo wrote: You can find wiggle room by issuing your attack with attack move, but yes. Q canceling is a bitch to learn properly. My opinion is that her autocancel or Q cancel or whatever should be removed. If she becomes too weak afterwards, give her a buff. In her current state she will be impossible to balance across all elos. I don't think Riot has the guts to do it as it will surely make "Riven mains" angry. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
On October 02 2015 10:55 Sufficiency wrote: My opinion is that her autocancel or Q cancel or whatever should be removed. If she becomes too weak afterwards, give her a buff. In her current state she will be impossible to balance across all elos. I don't think Riot has the guts to do it as it will surely make "Riven mains" angry. It would require a decent compensation if they got rid of it, most likely to her base stats which are god awful. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
They just don't know how they're going to do that. Understandably given how obtuse and technical it is, while being completely core to the champ. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
On October 02 2015 11:08 Caiada wrote: They stated in the past they like the mechanic but would like it to be clearer in how it works. Shouldn't have to look up a guide. They just don't know how they're going to do that. Understandably given how obtuse and technical it is, while being completely core to the champ. If Riot wanted to have their game mechanics be clear, they'd have quite a decent amount of work to do all around their game. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 02 2015 11:08 Caiada wrote: They stated in the past they like the mechanic but would like it to be clearer in how it works. Shouldn't have to look up a guide. They just don't know how they're going to do that. Understandably given how obtuse and technical it is, while being completely core to the champ. I think her current passive without the "cancel magic" is sufficiently technical (i.e. next auto does bonus damage, but only stacks three times). In fact I think it's pretty interesting by itself, since to get the best out of her you must play with discipline instead of rolling your face on your keyboard. Like I said, I don't think Riot has the guts to do it. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On October 02 2015 10:55 Sufficiency wrote: My opinion is that her autocancel or Q cancel or whatever should be removed. If she becomes too weak afterwards, give her a buff. In her current state she will be impossible to balance across all elos. I don't think Riot has the guts to do it as it will surely make "Riven mains" angry. Well you can do the same thing the other way. Make the cancel easier to do, like every other champions cancel works, and you can then tune the damage around it. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On October 02 2015 10:38 Gahlo wrote: You can find wiggle room by issuing your attack with attack move, but yes. Q canceling is a bitch to learn properly. A lot of other spell animations will complete if you right-click your target afterwards, actually. You can queue up the auto, but not cancel the animations. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/10/102-pbe-update.html | ||
739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Also they reverted Riven changes, good thing. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
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