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On June 17 2015 01:18 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 00:42 wei2coolman wrote:On June 17 2015 00:28 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Honestly, it's pretty much "go Cinderhulk on everyone no matter what" but some of the fight-happy aggro junglers can get away with Warrior (like Lee, Kha). No one REALLY does the AP one, unless you want to jungle Fiddle. It's not even worth getting on fiddle until after zhonya's. Pretty much you get machete upgrade and rush straight to zhonya's. At that point you can choose to go magus upgrade or work on another ap item. Fiddle doesn't benefit that greatly from 20% cdr. Fid benefits hugely from CDR midgame, E is stupid good. But he's still kinda broken AFAIK, I played him recently and his W still prematurely cancels a lot of the time, though random direction on Q makes it better than when they ran straight away (that was hilariously counterproductive). Need further testing to figure out exactly what's going on.
Realistically speaking. You won't be e maxed until around level 15 or 17 depending on how many points you have in life drain.
Early magus is useless for fid. Much better to continue getting an abyssal or rylsis, or etc on fid than the need for early cdr. Later in the game cdr becomes more important for fid as fights happen more often, so finishing magus after first 2-3 core items is probably ideal.
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On June 17 2015 02:14 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 00:50 Seuss wrote:
That's the critical problem with Magus. 80 AP and 20% CDR for 1400g is incredibly efficient, but it's still nothing more than a stat stick. You really want more oomph for your 1 and 2 item timings, and pure stats in anything less than excess typically isn't enough. Morello is mostly a stat stick with these ones though (albeit the mp5 is a big part of its choice).
Most everything is only a stat stick.
The only one that aren't are Zhonya(Active), Morello(Healing Reduction), Seraphs(active Shield), Twin Shadows, Lichbane(changes your attack pattern if you're buying second), and Rylai's(slow). The main component of these are stat sticks, especially Morello's, Seraphs, and Lichbane. And besides Zhonya's and Morello's (seraphs specialty) almost no one buys them first or second item.
80 AP and 20% CDR for 1400 gold is amazing and you should buy it first/second every time because you can't get 80 AP for 1600 gold. You're literally given 20% CDR and 200 Gold for free here.
Edit: Fids benefits hugely from CDR mid game because it means more ults. Setting up good ults is like the entire point of picking fids and CDR means you can do that more often.
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Except since you are a jungler unless every single one of your ganks works you will not get zhonya in time to be relevant in teamfights.
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On June 17 2015 02:29 nafta wrote:
Except since you are a jungler unless every single one of your ganks works you will not get zhonya in time to be relevant in teamfights.
Yes, you get it right after Zhonya. Which makes it second item
edit: i should have clarified. When talking about stat sticks i was talking in general. An AP focused jungler should buy the item first or second because you just can't get that kind of power on any other item for a similar price. Fids should get it second after Zhonya because the Zhonya active is so important and because buying it first might mean delaying Zhonya until a point where he can't afford it.
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On June 17 2015 02:30 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 02:29 nafta wrote:
Except since you are a jungler unless every single one of your ganks works you will not get zhonya in time to be relevant in teamfights. Yes, you get it right after Zhonya. Which makes it second item edit: i should have clarified. When talking about stat sticks i was talking in general. An AP focused jungler should buy the item first or second because you just can't get that kind of power on any other item for a similar price. Fids should get it second after Zhonya because the Zhonya active is so important and because buying it first might mean delaying Zhonya until a point where he can't afford it.
ye agree with that.Realistically it probably is gotten as a first item more often than not just cause of how hard it can be to get an nlr.
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On June 17 2015 02:14 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 00:50 Seuss wrote:
That's the critical problem with Magus. 80 AP and 20% CDR for 1400g is incredibly efficient, but it's still nothing more than a stat stick. You really want more oomph for your 1 and 2 item timings, and pure stats in anything less than excess typically isn't enough. Morello is mostly a stat stick with these ones though (albeit the mp5 is a big part of its choice).
Morello is also a much stronger stat stick than Magus. Magus fights an 850g handicap since you have to invest in Machete + Upgrade first, so as efficient as it is by itself it's actually far less efficient than Morello. 2327g in stats versus 3050g in stats for roughly the same cost (2250g vs 2300g).
Cinderhulk reigns supreme because utility and special abilities tend to trump pure stats unless you have a lot of them. Cinderhulk's stats are actually highly inefficient, you only get 1000g worth of stats initially, and most common builds barely push that above 1400g by the end of the game. What makes Cinderhulk strong is that it provides clearing power and damage which scales upwards as the game progresses. Runeglaive is far superior to Magus for similar reasons, despite being far less cost efficient in terms of pure stats..
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Magus fights a zero g handicap because you're going to buy Machete + Upgrade anyway in the jungle. The problem is not its efficiency its the fact that the meta doesn't favor squishy junglers.
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On June 17 2015 03:34 Goumindong wrote:
Magus fights a zero g handicap because you're going to buy Machete + Upgrade anyway in the jungle. The problem is not its efficiency its the fact that the meta doesn't favor squishy junglers.
The fundamental reason why you get so many stats for 1400g is because you're fighting that 850g handicap, otherwise it wouldn't be so efficient for that price. That you're going to buy Machete + Upgrade anyway is irrelevant, you have to buy them to get Magus.
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On June 17 2015 04:02 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 03:34 Goumindong wrote:
Magus fights a zero g handicap because you're going to buy Machete + Upgrade anyway in the jungle. The problem is not its efficiency its the fact that the meta doesn't favor squishy junglers. The fundamental reason why you get so many stats for 1400g is because you're fighting that 850g handicap, otherwise it wouldn't be so efficient for that price. That you're going to buy Machete + Upgrade anyway is irrelevant, you have to buy them to get Magus.
Its true that magus is cheap because its a jungle item. But that is irrelevant. Its not on the margin. You take smite in the jungle, you start with machete, you get upgrade first back. These are your best options regardless of what comes next so you get them. Then you've got machete and upgrade and magus looks really efficient then.
Maybe you can say the upgrade cost is part of the magus cost. You could start with machete and then not upgrade. But that seems kind of dumb to be considering the value of the upgrade and Magus still is a great amount of stats for the value
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United States11393 Posts
On June 16 2015 08:29 krndandaman wrote:
TIL pros max W 2nd on lulu instead of E (talking about solo lane lulu btw)
was quite a revelation seeing how lulu is now my 2nd most played and 2nd highest winrate though I only picked her up this season tbf.
I started off just copying champion.gg since according to it, most of all soloq lulu players go Q E W max.
however when I looked at pros, they nearly all go Q W E max.
makes sense though, W's cd scales off ranks, mana stays the same, and duration scales off ranks while E's cd doesn't scale off ranks and mana increases. silly me never bothered to actually read her wiki page.
wonder why there's such a large disconnect though, I've never really seen a case like this where there's a huge disconnect between pro vs soloq in skill order. the only explanation I can think of is either A) players never got used to change after her W change in patch 4.13 (which is a looong time ago) B) W doesn't do damage lol and players like damage
are there any other cases like this? can't think of one
edit:
er at least all korean pros* a decent amount of western pros (froggen, wickd, etc) go E max 2nd
haven't seen a E max 2nd korean yet
Haven't checked in a while but before eve was "changed" last season, majority of Koreans would max w second and foreigners e second. I even asked meteos about this on his stream once back then and he didn't even know that Koreans were doing that
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On June 17 2015 04:07 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 04:02 Seuss wrote:On June 17 2015 03:34 Goumindong wrote:
Magus fights a zero g handicap because you're going to buy Machete + Upgrade anyway in the jungle. The problem is not its efficiency its the fact that the meta doesn't favor squishy junglers. The fundamental reason why you get so many stats for 1400g is because you're fighting that 850g handicap, otherwise it wouldn't be so efficient for that price. That you're going to buy Machete + Upgrade anyway is irrelevant, you have to buy them to get Magus. Its true that magus is cheap because its a jungle item. But that is irrelevant. Its not on the margin. You take smite in the jungle, you start with machete, you get upgrade first back. These are your best options regardless of what comes next so you get them. Then you've got machete and upgrade and magus looks really efficient then. Maybe you can say the upgrade cost is part of the magus cost. You could start with machete and then not upgrade. But that seems kind of dumb to be considering the value of the upgrade and Magus still is a great amount of stats for the value
I think we're arguing past each other a bit because we're approaching the discussion from very different angles.
You're concerned with the moment where you choose between working toward Magus and investing in a new build path (e.g. Zhonya's) as an AP jungler. I'm in complete agreement that at that specific point Magus is an extremely efficient option, requiring an equally good reason to start working toward something else.
I'm concerned with Magus from a bird's eye view. In terms of game impact and timing it's just a weaker Morellonomicon and doesn't provide the AP jungler with the oomph to compete against a lane fulfilling a similar role. To point, what is the value of a given AP jungle versus that same champion mid if the former hits their 2300g timing with a weaker item than the latter?
What I'm essentially trying to say is that despite Magus being highly efficient after Machete + Upgrade, the end result doesn't have a Cinderhulk-level impact on the game. Runeglaive will.
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Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been.
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On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been.
Original Golem Spirit was butt. Magus has been butt.
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On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been.
Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head:- Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0.
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Can anyone here give me some Jayce tips? I usually really like poke champs and complex champions, but I just suck ass at Jayce. It feels like my poke is too infrequent to matter for most of the game, and getting closer gets me wrecked. I don't do nearly enough in fights.
Like how should I lane vs Zed? Every MU seems like knife edge fucking hard.
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On June 17 2015 04:29 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2015 08:29 krndandaman wrote:
TIL pros max W 2nd on lulu instead of E (talking about solo lane lulu btw)
was quite a revelation seeing how lulu is now my 2nd most played and 2nd highest winrate though I only picked her up this season tbf.
I started off just copying champion.gg since according to it, most of all soloq lulu players go Q E W max.
however when I looked at pros, they nearly all go Q W E max.
makes sense though, W's cd scales off ranks, mana stays the same, and duration scales off ranks while E's cd doesn't scale off ranks and mana increases. silly me never bothered to actually read her wiki page.
wonder why there's such a large disconnect though, I've never really seen a case like this where there's a huge disconnect between pro vs soloq in skill order. the only explanation I can think of is either A) players never got used to change after her W change in patch 4.13 (which is a looong time ago) B) W doesn't do damage lol and players like damage
are there any other cases like this? can't think of one
edit:
er at least all korean pros* a decent amount of western pros (froggen, wickd, etc) go E max 2nd
haven't seen a E max 2nd korean yet Haven't checked in a while but before eve was "changed" last season, majority of Koreans would max w second and foreigners e second. I even asked meteos about this on his stream once back then and he didn't even know that Koreans were doing that
I am guessing that they value the catch/cleanse potential of maxing W over the extra damage of E.
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On June 17 2015 05:07 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head: - Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0.
Skarner and Jax.
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On June 17 2015 05:07 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head: - Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0.
I would love to see Mord back in the mix of things. He has been away far too long.
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On June 17 2015 04:57 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Original Golem Spirit was butt. Magus has been butt.
Being terrible is one type of being broken. People just QQ about it less.
On June 17 2015 05:07 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head: - Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0.
* Nidalee
I don't necessarily disagree, Its just that those champions, based on the strength of the item, will either be stronger than warrior champs, or weaker, and that will basically be the end of the discussion. Even cinderhulk junglers like Gragas and Amumu could end up using the Runeglaive if it is better. These items just have too many factors to balance against each other to be balanced in the long run.
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EPT
