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On June 17 2015 05:34 lilwisper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 05:07 Seuss wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head: - Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0. I would love to see Mord back in the mix of things. He has been away far too long.
He can clear the jungle easily, it's just a question of what he's good for outside of that (right now, not much).
On June 17 2015 05:43 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 04:57 Gahlo wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Original Golem Spirit was butt. Magus has been butt. Being terrible is one type of being broken. People just QQ about it less. Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 05:07 Seuss wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head: - Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
a Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0. * Nidalee I don't necessarily disagree, Its just that those champions, based on the strength of the item, will either be stronger than warrior champs, or weaker, and that will basically be the end of the discussion. Even cinderhulk junglers like Gragas and Amumu could end up using the Runeglaive if it is better. These items just have too many factors to balance against each other to be balanced in the long run.
Right, a hypothetical alternative to machete to help clearing early is just as likely to help existing jungle champions as it would jungler-hopefuls. Same problem.
I'd be pretty stoked to see Runeglaive Amumu in competitive though.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
Runeglaive should be hilariously op for half of those champions to even consider buying it instead of cinderhulk.
There is just no point for almost anyone but Fizz/Diana/Ekko to go this route instead of warrior/cinderhulk.
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On June 17 2015 06:25 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Runeglaive should be hilariously op for half of those champions to even consider buying it instead of cinderhulk.
There is just no point for almost anyone but Fizz/Diana/Ekko to go this route instead of warrior/cinderhulk.
One could argue that Nidalee would also want Runeglaive as well, so that she can leap in and deal damage and not just be a spear thrower like how most people playing her in the professional scene are playing her right now.
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On June 17 2015 05:45 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 05:34 lilwisper wrote:On June 17 2015 05:07 Seuss wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head: - Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0. I would love to see Mord back in the mix of things. He has been away far too long. He can clear the jungle easily, it's just a question of what he's good for outside of that (right now, not much). Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 05:43 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2015 04:57 Gahlo wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Original Golem Spirit was butt. Magus has been butt. Being terrible is one type of being broken. People just QQ about it less. On June 17 2015 05:07 Seuss wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head: - Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
a Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0. * Nidalee I don't necessarily disagree, Its just that those champions, based on the strength of the item, will either be stronger than warrior champs, or weaker, and that will basically be the end of the discussion. Even cinderhulk junglers like Gragas and Amumu could end up using the Runeglaive if it is better. These items just have too many factors to balance against each other to be balanced in the long run. Right, a hypothetical alternative to machete to help clearing early is just as likely to help existing jungle champions as it would jungler-hopefuls. Same problem. I'd be pretty stoked to see Runeglaive Amumu in competitive though.
Yea, that's why the jungle needs to go to a more S2-style trivial to clear model. Possibly with more gold than S2, but no oracles elixir so they only have to balance the gold efficiency between clearing camps and ganking. Instead, in the current system they need to balance those two, plus clear speed, plus health after clearing, plus jungle item efficiency (slot and gold).
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On June 17 2015 06:58 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 05:45 Seuss wrote:On June 17 2015 05:34 lilwisper wrote:On June 17 2015 05:07 Seuss wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head: - Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0. I would love to see Mord back in the mix of things. He has been away far too long. He can clear the jungle easily, it's just a question of what he's good for outside of that (right now, not much). On June 17 2015 05:43 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2015 04:57 Gahlo wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Original Golem Spirit was butt. Magus has been butt. Being terrible is one type of being broken. People just QQ about it less. On June 17 2015 05:07 Seuss wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head: - Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
a Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0. * Nidalee I don't necessarily disagree, Its just that those champions, based on the strength of the item, will either be stronger than warrior champs, or weaker, and that will basically be the end of the discussion. Even cinderhulk junglers like Gragas and Amumu could end up using the Runeglaive if it is better. These items just have too many factors to balance against each other to be balanced in the long run. Right, a hypothetical alternative to machete to help clearing early is just as likely to help existing jungle champions as it would jungler-hopefuls. Same problem. I'd be pretty stoked to see Runeglaive Amumu in competitive though. Yea, that's why the jungle needs to go to a more S2-style trivial to clear model. Possibly with more gold than S2, but no oracles elixir so they only have to balance the gold efficiency between clearing camps and ganking. Instead, in the current system they need to balance those two, plus clear speed, plus health after clearing, plus jungle item efficiency (slot and gold).
I dont think it should be trivial, I think it shouyld be difficult but I think AoE shoud clear the jungle a lot faster than Single target.
Becuase Single target is a lot better in ganks then AoE is.
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On June 17 2015 07:11 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 06:58 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2015 05:45 Seuss wrote:On June 17 2015 05:34 lilwisper wrote:On June 17 2015 05:07 Seuss wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head: - Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0. I would love to see Mord back in the mix of things. He has been away far too long. He can clear the jungle easily, it's just a question of what he's good for outside of that (right now, not much). On June 17 2015 05:43 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2015 04:57 Gahlo wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Original Golem Spirit was butt. Magus has been butt. Being terrible is one type of being broken. People just QQ about it less. On June 17 2015 05:07 Seuss wrote:On June 17 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote:
Perhaps, however the most important clears in the game is still the first clear and the second clear, and Cinderhulk vs. Runeglaive won't fix those problems. In addition, Runeglaive will almost certainly still be a balance issue, because no jungle item released in the 3 seasons they have existed has not been. Sure, but there are plenty of AP champions who can manage those clears fine and make use of Runeglaive later. We'll find out to what degree soon enough, but off the top of my head: - Fizz
- Eve
- Diana
- Ekko
- Cho'gath
- Akali
- Mordekaiser
a Basically if you're waiting for an item that will help a jungler who really can't handle the first clear well alone (e.g. Karma, Katarina) you're out of luck. That probably won't be seen until the jungle is remade once again in 6.0. * Nidalee I don't necessarily disagree, Its just that those champions, based on the strength of the item, will either be stronger than warrior champs, or weaker, and that will basically be the end of the discussion. Even cinderhulk junglers like Gragas and Amumu could end up using the Runeglaive if it is better. These items just have too many factors to balance against each other to be balanced in the long run. Right, a hypothetical alternative to machete to help clearing early is just as likely to help existing jungle champions as it would jungler-hopefuls. Same problem. I'd be pretty stoked to see Runeglaive Amumu in competitive though. Yea, that's why the jungle needs to go to a more S2-style trivial to clear model. Possibly with more gold than S2, but no oracles elixir so they only have to balance the gold efficiency between clearing camps and ganking. Instead, in the current system they need to balance those two, plus clear speed, plus health after clearing, plus jungle item efficiency (slot and gold). I dont think it should be trivial, I think it shouyld be difficult but I think AoE shoud clear the jungle a lot faster than Single target. Becuase Single target is a lot better in ganks then AoE is.
Can you explain why you think a jungle that causes junglers to take non-trivial damage is good for balance? From what I've seen over the past 3 seasons, all its done is constrict the pool of viable/optimal junglers because it makes some champions extremely easy to invade, and they can't gank, and they can barely clear.
But yes on AOE vs. Single target (early), you do have to always account for teamfight power though.
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Wasn't the problem with a completely trivial jungle that lanes would take your farm all the time? Would that also be a problem for jungle champion diversity?
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On June 17 2015 07:47 phyvo wrote:
Wasn't the problem with a completely trivial jungle that lanes would take your farm all the time? Would that also be a problem for jungle champion diversity?
It could be, but that was a problem with the (still unfixed) problem of where jungle camps are located, and that junglers were so far behind anyways (because of poor gold values early and oracles being a must-buy) that giving them farm was kind of a waste.
Even with those problems, in one tournament, on one patch, S2 had the following played:
Shen, Lee Sin, Mundo, Skarner, Shyvana, Maokai, Cho Gath, Nocturne, Udyr, Xin, Amumu, and Alistar (groups only).
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
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runegliave sis quite op on eveyvlnn on pbe at least
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Did they hotfix in the Sejuani damage reduction? I noticed she hasn't been banned my last few games and while she gets picked every time she doesn't feel quite as bad. It is more than a remote possibility they are just baddies but I am curious.
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I never understood why people talk so much about the jungle diversity like its different than the other lanes diversity. Its quite the same or at least it follows the same patterns. Few items are changed and we have sona/nami/soraka dominating bot lane, then another change we start seeing leona/annie/tresh, then janna then lulu then smth else. Other stuff changes then midlane becomes assassin oriented, another change and boom we have farming mids, same goes for tanky tops, carry tops etc.Caster adcs, auto-attacking ads, hyper carries and so on and so on.
My point is that each role/lane has this anti-diversity all the time. The only difference is that jungle is impacted by items&monsters, while other lanes only from items.
Bottom line is that we have 130 champs, 5 roles, 2 champs per role (per game) out of 25-30. In these 25-30 champs we have 3-4 different types (like carry, assassin, tank, wave clearer, poker, combination of those, etc) 1 or 2 of these types are better for the current state of the meta. We can't pick more than one champ per role, we don't have enough bans to force out of (favorable) meta pick, so we end up with approximately 3-4-5 good champs per role
Possible solution is to add more bans. If we have 10 bans per game(like in dota) then boom you can force all tanky jungles out of a particular game. Next game people force out all mid assassins or AP tops and this will make people ready to play more and out of meta champs since you don''t know which lane's favorites will be targeted
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On June 17 2015 18:32 Velocirapture wrote:
Did they hotfix in the Sejuani damage reduction? I noticed she hasn't been banned my last few games and while she gets picked every time she doesn't feel quite as bad. It is more than a remote possibility they are just baddies but I am curious.
Yup, this time they reduced that actual ingame damage, instead of just the tooltip.
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On June 17 2015 20:04 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 18:32 Velocirapture wrote:
Did they hotfix in the Sejuani damage reduction? I noticed she hasn't been banned my last few games and while she gets picked every time she doesn't feel quite as bad. It is more than a remote possibility they are just baddies but I am curious. Yup, this time they reduced that actual ingame damage, instead of just the tooltip.
That is good I guess. In the patch notes they said it would either be hotfixed or left to next patch so I am pleasantly surprised by their initiative. As of right now the only jungle I absolutely hate seeing the enemy get is Gragas and he is getting quite a few nerfs next patch. Jungle has monopolized bans for so long I wonder if it will shift to just cover all the FOTM or if we will just move down the list to Rek'Sai.
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On June 17 2015 19:10 M2 wrote:
I never understood why people talk so much about the jungle diversity like its different than the other lanes diversity. Its quite the same or at least it follows the same patterns. Few items are changed and we have sona/nami/soraka dominating bot lane, then another change we start seeing leona/annie/tresh, then janna then lulu then smth else. Other stuff changes then midlane becomes assassin oriented, another change and boom we have farming mids, same goes for tanky tops, carry tops etc.Caster adcs, auto-attacking ads, hyper carries and so on and so on.
My point is that each role/lane has this anti-diversity all the time. The only difference is that jungle is impacted by items&monsters, while other lanes only from items.
Bottom line is that we have 130 champs, 5 roles, 2 champs per role (per game) out of 25-30. In these 25-30 champs we have 3-4 different types (like carry, assassin, tank, wave clearer, poker, combination of those, etc) 1 or 2 of these types are better for the current state of the meta. We can't pick more than one champ per role, we don't have enough bans to force out of (favorable) meta pick, so we end up with approximately 3-4-5 good champs per role
Possible solution is to add more bans. If we have 10 bans per game(like in dota) then boom you can force all tanky jungles out of a particular game. Next game people force out all mid assassins or AP tops and this will make people ready to play more and out of meta champs since you don''t know which lane's favorites will be targeted
Bans used to be TheYango's axe to grind. He definitely advocated more bans and a split banning phase, but Riot argued this would reduce diversity.
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whats the state of adc now? I dont see my self snowballing hard, whenever i win its either some1 carried me or a quite close game 60-40 kinda. I dont feel i am contributing at all this season lol. Any tips?
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u must be playing different game because most of my games are decided by botlane
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Is the fascination with Cho'Gath in every ELO or just mine? I understand he has a silence and everything but he feels so useless late game if the other team can kite even halfway effectively.
Really don't understand it tbh.
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On June 17 2015 22:01 justiceknight wrote:
whats the state of adc now? I dont see my self snowballing hard, whenever i win its either some1 carried me or a quite close game 60-40 kinda. I dont feel i am contributing at all this season lol. Any tips?
Depends on enemy teams honestly but in general kinda.Biggest advice is unless you can consistently win lane pick sivir and enjoy your teamfight wins.
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On June 17 2015 22:11 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 22:01 justiceknight wrote:
whats the state of adc now? I dont see my self snowballing hard, whenever i win its either some1 carried me or a quite close game 60-40 kinda. I dont feel i am contributing at all this season lol. Any tips? Depends on enemy teams honestly but in general kinda.Biggest advice is unless you can consistently win lane pick sivir and enjoy your teamfight wins.
Well, with Sivir you do have to have lanes/jungler that do damage, because without that you just run at the enemy really fast and continue to not kill them, which is not very effective.
Also, about Cho'Gath, he's strong in jungle fights and versus engage comps, but he is indeed very kiteable. I haven't seen him that much at my ELO (low Diamond).
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EPT
