• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 02:34
CEST 08:34
KST 15:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3
Community News
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)8Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over2New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!40Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week6Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles4
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game SC4ALL II: SC2 Player Announcement 6/8 - Maru Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2?
Tourneys
IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly SC2 INu's Battles#20 [BO.9] 2026 GSTL Announcement Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome
Brood War
General
ASL22 General Discussion BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 XUN appreciation thread
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS [ASL22] Ro24 Group F Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
[Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!! General RTS Discussion Thread Stratus: Battle for the sky now on steam Early acc Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Paid Marketing Services | Drive Leads & Sales with Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Is a Spice Mill Worth It for Everyday Cooking? Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Regacy Esports: The Bh…
regacyesports
Violent Games and Crime Rate…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4799 users

[Patch 4.21] Rek'Sai General Discussion - Page 75

Forum Index > LoL General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 73 74 75 76 77 157 Next
Starting Page 94 spamming will in GD will be warned, please don't post for the sake of post count. Keep it civil.

Please take website feedback to http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/website-feedback/
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
January 03 2015 07:01 GMT
#1481
--- Nuked ---
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
January 03 2015 07:05 GMT
#1482
On January 03 2015 16:01 krndandaman wrote:
the way it is in korea is better for competition and the viewers. the way it is in NA is better for the players, coaches, etc.
sure it'd be great to have the best of both worlds but esports is just not there yet.


So true and something that makes Gozo's post kinda ridiculous. The american way is out fashioned, better go full retard Korea, much better overall success.
hi
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
January 03 2015 07:28 GMT
#1483
I don't know if we're being completely honest with ourselves here. All you all okay with organizations milking all that they can from the fans with false promises of potential glory and future success, when all the evidence points to the contrary? I would be fine if some of the Western organizations just became honest with themselves and stopped with all the PR we are doing all that we can to win, when the truth is closer to we are doing all we can to win money off you gullible kind hearted folks. Even the CJ organization, for all their flack, has focused less on PR and commercial success than the vast majority of Western teams.

We all know no Western team will ever be competitive (as in having a chance to win Worlds) with their current mindset. That's fine, but then don't sugarcoat it with how you're catching up and are doing all you can to do win, when you're unwilling to change the very thing that makes you more of a professional entertainer than a competitor. Streamers in Korea are at least honest in that they don't pretend that what they do everyday will eventually make them as good as Faker one day. They have different goals and they are honest and are open about it, I'm not sure if the same can be said about their Western counterparts.
TL+ Member
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
January 03 2015 07:36 GMT
#1484
It's kind of a joke that people are talking about NA players being professional streamers/entertainers and don't really care. Most players are putting in a lot of work, especially towards playoff time when they're generally putting in 12+ hours a day of scrims and reviews. Yeah, they're not practicing 18 hours a day like Piglet in Korea, but don't act like they're just fucking around and don't really care.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
TheHumanSensation
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1210 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-03 07:39:57
January 03 2015 07:39 GMT
#1485
I thought we had the general vibe that NA managed to close the gap towards Korea at worlds this year a little? Meaning that it's still a large gap, but that it's smaller than previous years.
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
January 03 2015 07:44 GMT
#1486
On January 03 2015 16:39 TheHumanSensation wrote:
I thought we had the general vibe that NA managed to close the gap towards Korea at worlds this year a little? Meaning that it's still a large gap, but that it's smaller than previous years.


I don't think there's much to support that, and it's a pretty small sample size. At best, you can say that Cloud 9 have improved.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
GhandiEAGLE
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States20754 Posts
January 03 2015 07:46 GMT
#1487
On January 03 2015 16:28 Letmelose wrote:
I don't know if we're being completely honest with ourselves here. All you all okay with organizations milking all that they can from the fans with false promises of potential glory and future success, when all the evidence points to the contrary? I would be fine if some of the Western organizations just became honest with themselves and stopped with all the PR we are doing all that we can to win, when the truth is closer to we are doing all we can to win money off you gullible kind hearted folks. Even the CJ organization, for all their flack, has focused less on PR and commercial success than the vast majority of Western teams.

We all know no Western team will ever be competitive (as in having a chance to win Worlds) with their current mindset. That's fine, but then don't sugarcoat it with how you're catching up and are doing all you can to do win, when you're unwilling to change the very thing that makes you more of a professional entertainer than a competitor. Streamers in Korea are at least honest in that they don't pretend that what they do everyday will eventually make them as good as Faker one day. They have different goals and they are honest and are open about it, I'm not sure if the same can be said about their Western counterparts.

This is pretty exaggerated. It's not some truism to throw around, because I think most people who have a lot of knowledge about the game (not saying you do or do not) would likely disagree with you. Do you think a team like C9 is just held back by their moneygrubbing mindset? I definitely don't. I would say that there is certainly truth in what you say in that our infrastructure definitely needs more development, and that does have to do with corporate mindset, but it's not as black and white as you're saying.

Also, a few western teams had outside chances to win worlds if you ignore the presence of Samsung White (which was on a completely different level than every other team in the world, Korean or otherwise). I could see C9 taking a series off of Blue (not that they would be favored, but it wasn't a ridiculous scenario to consider as of Worlds), I probably would have favored TSM over Royal in a Bo5, and Alliance was also a decent contender stuffed into a power group. I know that ignoring the champions is a cheesy route to take, but even in a Worlds with only korean teams, nobody would have been a contender since White was just that much better than everybody.
Oh, my achin' hands, from rakin' in grands, and breakin' in mic stands
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-03 08:27:27
January 03 2015 08:21 GMT
#1488
On January 03 2015 14:55 GozoShioda wrote:
There's a specific reason I quoted him.
He along with the rest of management in NA are a joke.

a lot of that is pretty unfair, but you have the right to your opinion so thanks for your thoughts

and come on, letmelose, don't act like we're all just rolling around in beds full of money laughing at esports fans
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
January 03 2015 08:31 GMT
#1489
dang I liked your post dunno why you deleted it
Carrilord has arrived.
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-03 08:34:19
January 03 2015 08:33 GMT
#1490
On January 03 2015 16:28 Letmelose wrote:
I don't know if we're being completely honest with ourselves here. All you all okay with organizations milking all that they can from the fans with false promises of potential glory and future success, when all the evidence points to the contrary? I would be fine if some of the Western organizations just became honest with themselves and stopped with all the PR we are doing all that we can to win, when the truth is closer to we are doing all we can to win money off you gullible kind hearted folks. Even the CJ organization, for all their flack, has focused less on PR and commercial success than the vast majority of Western teams.

We all know no Western team will ever be competitive (as in having a chance to win Worlds) with their current mindset. That's fine, but then don't sugarcoat it with how you're catching up and are doing all you can to do win, when you're unwilling to change the very thing that makes you more of a professional entertainer than a competitor. Streamers in Korea are at least honest in that they don't pretend that what they do everyday will eventually make them as good as Faker one day. They have different goals and they are honest and are open about it, I'm not sure if the same can be said about their Western counterparts.



I don't think anyone is being dishonest anywhere in the world about their profession, with the exception of few. That is not bound to streamers only in Korea, but NA and EU as well. People want the hype, because that's what being a fan is all about, you see it in all kinds of sports and that wasn't really the point i was trying to make.

It's more the question of the streamers milking off something they're not (xj9 is always the first one to pop into my mind). These type of people, who see twitch as a slot machine, hoping to live off of it, somewhere nice and safe. You'd be surprised how many of them there actually are (and few suddenly became many ^^).
hi
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
January 03 2015 08:36 GMT
#1491
On January 03 2015 17:31 Slusher wrote:
dang I liked your post dunno why you deleted it


he made some good points, and i don't really want to pick an internet fight. all that matters is my team is working their butts off to improve and hopefully we can silence the haters with progress this year
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
January 03 2015 08:48 GMT
#1492
I hope your team will make it. Make sure you whip pobelter extra hard so he doesn't choke....
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
January 03 2015 08:49 GMT
#1493
On January 03 2015 16:46 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2015 16:28 Letmelose wrote:
I don't know if we're being completely honest with ourselves here. All you all okay with organizations milking all that they can from the fans with false promises of potential glory and future success, when all the evidence points to the contrary? I would be fine if some of the Western organizations just became honest with themselves and stopped with all the PR we are doing all that we can to win, when the truth is closer to we are doing all we can to win money off you gullible kind hearted folks. Even the CJ organization, for all their flack, has focused less on PR and commercial success than the vast majority of Western teams.

We all know no Western team will ever be competitive (as in having a chance to win Worlds) with their current mindset. That's fine, but then don't sugarcoat it with how you're catching up and are doing all you can to do win, when you're unwilling to change the very thing that makes you more of a professional entertainer than a competitor. Streamers in Korea are at least honest in that they don't pretend that what they do everyday will eventually make them as good as Faker one day. They have different goals and they are honest and are open about it, I'm not sure if the same can be said about their Western counterparts.

This is pretty exaggerated. It's not some truism to throw around, because I think most people who have a lot of knowledge about the game (not saying you do or do not) would likely disagree with you. Do you think a team like C9 is just held back by their moneygrubbing mindset? I definitely don't. I would say that there is certainly truth in what you say in that our infrastructure definitely needs more development, and that does have to do with corporate mindset, but it's not as black and white as you're saying.

Also, a few western teams had outside chances to win worlds if you ignore the presence of Samsung White (which was on a completely different level than every other team in the world, Korean or otherwise). I could see C9 taking a series off of Blue (not that they would be favored, but it wasn't a ridiculous scenario to consider as of Worlds), I probably would have favored TSM over Royal in a Bo5, and Alliance was also a decent contender stuffed into a power group. I know that ignoring the champions is a cheesy route to take, but even in a Worlds with only korean teams, nobody would have been a contender since White was just that much better than everybody.


You're taking the absolute creme de la creme of the available options just to state your case. Do you honestly believe teams like LG IM have outside chances of winning The Champions just because they take random games off Samsung Galaxy Blue? Because all these wishful thinking that you apply by erasing certain teams off the grid entirely, needing upsets to happen in favor of certain teams at a regularity not seen often in this universe, and thinking beating a team a calibre of SHRC is all you need to win the World Championship is nothing more than random delusions in my eyes and has nothing to do with my statement that Western teams in general do not have winning the World Championship as their absolute priority, and often make decisions that help them financially much more than decisions that will increase their odds. All these godlike teams that people wanted to take as superlative freaks of nature were and will be surpassed by organizations that have nothing else in their minds but to take them down. I simply don't see that level of dedication in the West, which is why we'll need to conjure all these unlikely scenarios for them to succeed, when kids who are actually professionals are out there vying (most of them failing) to be the best. I don't even see the majority of the West even trying, instead they imagine.
TL+ Member
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
January 03 2015 09:39 GMT
#1494
The west's, and like 100x extra in NA, biggest problem is either: 1. The pros are right and there are almost no good talents; or 2. They still are abysmal at identifying it. Heck, even China seems to have an issue outside of the AD Carry position.

Bliss, for instance, looks like a really fun new midlaner that Samsung just pulled out of a hat.
Freeeeeeedom
GhandiEAGLE
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States20754 Posts
January 03 2015 09:41 GMT
#1495
NA has a talent pool, but it doesn't have a system good enough to shape that talent due to the cutthroat nature of the LCS. You can't use subs for a couple games to give a player LAN experience because there are only 30 games in a season. It's sink or swim for teams and you can't afford to have some rookie with potential jeopardize your entire organization.
Oh, my achin' hands, from rakin' in grands, and breakin' in mic stands
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
January 03 2015 09:47 GMT
#1496
On January 03 2015 17:49 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2015 16:46 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
On January 03 2015 16:28 Letmelose wrote:
I don't know if we're being completely honest with ourselves here. All you all okay with organizations milking all that they can from the fans with false promises of potential glory and future success, when all the evidence points to the contrary? I would be fine if some of the Western organizations just became honest with themselves and stopped with all the PR we are doing all that we can to win, when the truth is closer to we are doing all we can to win money off you gullible kind hearted folks. Even the CJ organization, for all their flack, has focused less on PR and commercial success than the vast majority of Western teams.

We all know no Western team will ever be competitive (as in having a chance to win Worlds) with their current mindset. That's fine, but then don't sugarcoat it with how you're catching up and are doing all you can to do win, when you're unwilling to change the very thing that makes you more of a professional entertainer than a competitor. Streamers in Korea are at least honest in that they don't pretend that what they do everyday will eventually make them as good as Faker one day. They have different goals and they are honest and are open about it, I'm not sure if the same can be said about their Western counterparts.

This is pretty exaggerated. It's not some truism to throw around, because I think most people who have a lot of knowledge about the game (not saying you do or do not) would likely disagree with you. Do you think a team like C9 is just held back by their moneygrubbing mindset? I definitely don't. I would say that there is certainly truth in what you say in that our infrastructure definitely needs more development, and that does have to do with corporate mindset, but it's not as black and white as you're saying.

Also, a few western teams had outside chances to win worlds if you ignore the presence of Samsung White (which was on a completely different level than every other team in the world, Korean or otherwise). I could see C9 taking a series off of Blue (not that they would be favored, but it wasn't a ridiculous scenario to consider as of Worlds), I probably would have favored TSM over Royal in a Bo5, and Alliance was also a decent contender stuffed into a power group. I know that ignoring the champions is a cheesy route to take, but even in a Worlds with only korean teams, nobody would have been a contender since White was just that much better than everybody.


You're taking the absolute creme de la creme of the available options just to state your case. Do you honestly believe teams like LG IM have outside chances of winning The Champions just because they take random games off Samsung Galaxy Blue? Because all these wishful thinking that you apply by erasing certain teams off the grid entirely, needing upsets to happen in favor of certain teams at a regularity not seen often in this universe, and thinking beating a team a calibre of SHRC is all you need to win the World Championship is nothing more than random delusions in my eyes and has nothing to do with my statement that Western teams in general do not have winning the World Championship as their absolute priority, and often make decisions that help them financially much more than decisions that will increase their odds. All these godlike teams that people wanted to take as superlative freaks of nature were and will be surpassed by organizations that have nothing else in their minds but to take them down. I simply don't see that level of dedication in the West, which is why we'll need to conjure all these unlikely scenarios for them to succeed, when kids who are actually professionals are out there vying (most of them failing) to be the best. I don't even see the majority of the West even trying, instead they imagine.

I think most Western teams and players are pretty honest about that. I mean you watch all the interviews before s4 worlds and everyone's goals is "oh we just want to get to world's, dont' really care what happens after."

At this point most players just want to make it to worlds and have a free vacation on Riot, the only thing they have to do is show up and get stomped by some Koreans, and then they can go around checking out the venue and shit.
liftlift > tsm
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
January 03 2015 10:04 GMT
#1497
On January 03 2015 18:41 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
NA has a talent pool, but it doesn't have a system good enough to shape that talent due to the cutthroat nature of the LCS. You can't use subs for a couple games to give a player LAN experience because there are only 30 games in a season. It's sink or swim for teams and you can't afford to have some rookie with potential jeopardize your entire organization.

Lol what?

The LCS regular season is incredibly meaningless. Particularly Spring. The old OGN format gave you almost 0 chance to give players LAN exp comparatively. Your assertion is basically the inverse of the true talent development situation over the past 2 years.

Freeeeeeedom
GhandiEAGLE
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States20754 Posts
January 03 2015 10:26 GMT
#1498
On January 03 2015 19:04 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2015 18:41 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
NA has a talent pool, but it doesn't have a system good enough to shape that talent due to the cutthroat nature of the LCS. You can't use subs for a couple games to give a player LAN experience because there are only 30 games in a season. It's sink or swim for teams and you can't afford to have some rookie with potential jeopardize your entire organization.

Lol what?

The LCS regular season is incredibly meaningless. Particularly Spring. The old OGN format gave you almost 0 chance to give players LAN exp comparatively. Your assertion is basically the inverse of the true talent development situation over the past 2 years.


WINNING LCS is useless, but relegation is a very real threat that claims a lot of teams with talented players that aren't able to develop fast enough, and middling teams can't afford to risk relegation for the sake of potential. I don't get what part of that is invalid.

Oh, my achin' hands, from rakin' in grands, and breakin' in mic stands
justiceknight
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Singapore5741 Posts
January 03 2015 10:29 GMT
#1499
FIONN PLS

[image loading]
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
January 03 2015 10:32 GMT
#1500
How is Space able to be 2 types of persons and a building? Damn Korea, so innovative..
hi
Prev 1 73 74 75 76 77 157 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
2026 GSTL: Main Stage Day 4
Discussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech134
EnDerr 38
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 2280
GuemChi 1555
PianO 423
sSak 85
Noble 14
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm129
League of Legends
JimRising 621
Counter-Strike
Coldzera 986
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox588
Other Games
XaKoH 276
Happy131
C9.Mang0124
Livibee123
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 36
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2836
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
3h 26m
OSC
15h 56m
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 4h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
OSC
3 days
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
3 days
Mixu vs TBD
Spirit vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Soma vs Shuttle
BeSt vs Rush
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Leta vs ggaemo
Jaedong vs Queen
[ Show More ]
GSL
5 days
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-02
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.