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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On January 14 2015 10:38 PrinceXizor wrote: its only 100 less range than your only disable. Exactly. Plus the best use of DFG is with your ult, which makes you stationary. And you are now in most gap closer/CC range, and they don't have to hit a moving target. In theory DFG is great. Practice, not so much. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On January 14 2015 10:32 red_ wrote: That'd be a neat trick since Rylai's is Giant's Belt+Amp Tome+Blasting Wand+Gold as is. Even removing the gold, that would be making it more expensive and a harder build up(most expensive piece moves from 1k to 1600). I mean, that would be the "simplest" answer I could come up with, as the only other comparable item to Rylei's is Frozen Mallet, and that's a pretty niche buy on most champs that I am aware of. It could be they introduce another item to replace it (maybe a BotRK-type item but for Mages?) but there's the fear of Essence Reaver-tier item. The reasoning seems sorta flawed, too; there needs to be counter-play if someone buys these items, like if someone wants to go assassin-y, 100-0 damage ganker, they need to have low stats or not as much mobility/tower dive options. Edit: The reason why I don't like Essence Reaver is the buildpath is so weird; it's literally the same build as BT, only it's 300 gold cheaper. And in exchange for the 20% Lifesteal and shield you get 10% CDR (which doesn't benefit most ADCs) and the mana steal from AAs, when by the time you leave lane is a worthless passive to have on most ADCs. The only ADCs I've built Reaver on are Ezreal (if I don't go Muramana) and Varus (for Legolas/siege build). | ||
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
On January 14 2015 09:54 AlterKot wrote: It means I don't get 100-0'd as ADC because my mid fed :^) Yeah but on the flip side it means I can't 100-0 you because my support or ad fed. | ||
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ParadeofMadness
United Kingdom1027 Posts
GG Riot, way to make the game more boring. Might as well remove skilkshots from the game in 6.0 | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
That said, Riot's reasons for removing it sound pretty bogus to me. It basically amounts to "burst damage/solo-killing power are anti-fun" and "we don't know how to balance champs that can play multiple roles". | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On January 14 2015 10:47 Kinie wrote: I mean, that would be the "simplest" answer I could come up with, as the only other comparable item to Rylei's is Frozen Mallet, and that's a pretty niche buy on most champs that I am aware of. It could be they introduce another item to replace it (maybe a BotRK-type item but for Mages?) but there's the fear of Essence Reaver-tier item. The reasoning seems sorta flawed, too; there needs to be counter-play if someone buys these items, like if someone wants to go assassin-y, 100-0 damage ganker, they need to have low stats or not as much mobility/tower dive options. Edit: The reason why I don't like Essence Reaver is the buildpath is so weird; it's literally the same build as BT, only it's 300 gold cheaper. And in exchange for the 20% Lifesteal and shield you get 10% CDR (which doesn't benefit most ADCs) and the mana steal from AAs, when by the time you leave lane is a worthless passive to have on most ADCs. The only ADCs I've built Reaver on are Ezreal (if I don't go Muramana) and Varus (for Legolas/siege build). I fully agree with this. I don't think I've ever heard of people complaining about DFG on Veigar. Ahri or Fizz on the other hand... Zhonya's has a similar problem in my book. Zhonya's Fizz is horrible. Zhonya's on some other champs (e.g. Brand), not so bad at all. | ||
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Mensol
14536 Posts
I approve this list. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 14 2015 10:46 PrinceXizor wrote: Essence reaver has an interesting timing i'd like to see used by top teams before i judge it as wholly useless. it is the cheapest 80 AD item in the game, and its 300 cheaper than BT, so you could buy the wrath elixir and essence reaver for about the same cash as BT and instead of the shield you get 25 AD 10% cdr and the mana passive. it'd be an advantage over an even opponent for a dragon fight or push that you could use to secure a teamwide advantage. It'd fall off a little as its less good for sieging, which means your comp would have to have something for sieging, but by the time the elixir wears off you should have gained the advantage back from the money you sunk into it and then some. BT gives you effective health, shields and doubles lifesteal from essence reaver and ER has no profits at all outside of Jayce. Even blue Ezreal profits more from going botrk/bt than getting er. ER seriously has to be tweaked, it's okay concept but it has to be pickaxe instead of bf sword and something like 50 damage and not 80, then it's okay to buy if you need midgame powerspikes asap. Currently it's just noobtrap. On January 14 2015 11:00 Mensol wrote: http://euw.lolesports.com/articles/players-watch-2015 I approve this list. 10 NA LCS players 3 EU LCS players 2 LMS players 2 LPL players 2 OGN-LCK players 0 GPL players | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
Also, I think what Riot is describing about DFG sounds very similar to what happened to Lich Bane. Lich Bane is still in the game after number adjustments. I don't see why DFG cannot. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 14 2015 11:04 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: BT gives you effective health, shields and doubles lifesteal from essence reaver and ER has no profits at all outside of Jayce. Even blue Ezreal profits more from going botrk/bt than getting er. ER seriously has to be tweaked, it's okay concept but it has to be pickaxe instead of bf sword and something like 50 damage and not 80, then it's okay to buy if you need midgame powerspikes asap. Currently it's just noobtrap. Its either effective health or shields. not both. and double the lifesteal doesn't mean anything if youhave the wrath elixir making up that gap. thats the point of the timing. its a timing in which you are stronger at fighting than someone who bought BT. period. I had a long ass post to Jazz about vel koz, but its not worth it. jazz you have a misunderstanding about how mid vel koz functions. he's extremely different due to how items function with him than a standard mid. you spend more time tankbusting than you do destroying squishies. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 14 2015 11:07 PrinceXizor wrote: Its either effective health or shields. not both. and double the lifesteal doesn't mean anything if youhave the wrath elixir making up that gap. thats the point of the timing. its a timing in which you are stronger at fighting than someone who bought BT. period. Who in good mind will rush ER first item with elixir when you can almost buy IE for those 1650 gold adding just 600 more. Or even worse, getting ER after IE skipping crit amplifiers? Or armpens? Or qss? And if you're not rushing it, what's the point of taking it in late game when you can just get those 300 gold in less than a minute. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 14 2015 11:10 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Who in good mind will rush ER first item with elixir when you can buy IE for those 2150 gold, adding just 100 more. And if you're not rushing it, what's the point of taking it in late game when you can just get those 300 gold in less than a minute. You....you don't seem to understand. i didn't say Essence reaver instead of IE. Its a literal replacement for BT, to be used to secure a teamfight and objective. instead of BT - > essence Reaver + elixir, if you are positioning for a dragon or objective to be taken. If you are just buying an item and then farming again, get BT. essence reaver serves no purpose. but if dragon is coming up or you are looking to take advantage of a minion wave pushing on one side of the map, pick up ER and grab the wrath elixir and have at it. farming another couple waves wastes a minute, or a wave and a jungle camp is 40 seconds, it may not seem like a big deal in solo queue, but honestly in solo queue you can buy pretty much anything and win, in competitive play the timings where your team needs to be available for a fight can be prolonged and prevent a player from recalling unless they want to give up an objective or two for nothing. its in these moments that the niche is found. if youhave IE stattik BT and the other guy has IE stattik ER + Elixir. the other guy is going to be much stronger than you for that window of time. and if your team is able to take advantage of that window, you can get objectives without a teamfight or if the other team makes a mistake, with a won teamfight as well. its not about the item being better than BT in the long run, or being a needed item for mana or whatever. its about using that timing very specifically in 5v5 to get an objective at bare minimum. and i'd like to see that timing used in competitive matches or scrims before i call the item terrible. niche items are fine. even great. you don't have to follow some silly build path every game. you should be adapting based on what is in front of you. People too often look at whats the best 6 item build and then whats the best order to buy those items in. and thats a flawed view of how a competitive match works. competitive teams will punish farming at poor times. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 14 2015 11:15 PrinceXizor wrote: You....you don't seem to understand. i didn't say Essence reaver instead of IE. Its a literal replacement for BT, to be used to secure a teamfight and objective. instead of BT - > essence Reaver + elixir, if you are positioning for a dragon or objective to be taken. If you are just buying an item and then farming again, get BT. essence reaver serves no purpose. but if dragon is coming up or you are looking to take advantage of a minion wave pushing on one side of the map, pick up ER and grab the wrath elixir and have at it. farming another couple waves wastes a minute, or a wave and a jungle camp is 40 seconds, it may not seem like a big deal in solo queue, but honestly in solo queue you can buy pretty much anything and win, in competitive play the timings where your team needs to be available for a fight can be prolonged and prevent a player from recalling unless they want to give up an objective or two for nothing. its in these moments that the niche is found. if youhave IE stattik BT and the other guy has IE stattik ER + Elixir. the other guy is going to be much stronger than you for that window of time. and if your team is able to take advantage of that window, you can get objectives without a teamfight or if the other team makes a mistake, with a won teamfight as well. its not about the item being better than BT in the long run, or being a needed item for mana or whatever. its about using that timing very specifically in 5v5 to get an objective at bare minimum. and i'd like to see that timing used in competitive matches or scrims before i call the item terrible. niche items are fine. even great. you don't have to follow some silly build path every game. you should be adapting based on what is in front of you. It depends on what are champions, if someone like Jinx has ie/shiv/bt and there is Ezreal with ie/shiv/er+elixir, Jinx will wreck him. And even if those are random adcs, rng can easily seal the deal with bt shield blocking one of crits, it's not like people will go "look, he has er and elixir over your bt, we're not fighting this objective at all". Seriously though, you might be right in something but i'm sceptical about ER as item in general, niche or not. Niche items like SotD or EC at least had clear purpose, ER doesn't even have that. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
every fight always depends on the champions though. its hard to make that argument against an item if the items are not involved. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 14 2015 10:26 Kinie wrote: DFG removal will affect (in my eyes) the following champions the most: Syndra, Ahri, Leblanc, Katarina, Veigar. I don't see many mid Annie's buying it, and Fizz's tend to 100-0 people without it just fine. I think this is just Riot trying to streamline the champs purchases. I do think it should stay in, it's a niche item but does help the above Mages/Assassins a ton when they try to 100-0 people in the early/mid game. This does mean that it will probably be league of tanks and AD/AP scaling though, as now that DFG's removal means you can't have a Mage chunk a tank down as fast, you just pick a strong scaling tank for top or jungle, a decent scaling ADC that doesn't have a shit early game and play even semi-decently and you'll have a front line that won't die. Maybe they condense Rylei's down into NLR + Giant's Belt + Amp. Tome? IMO it's the biggest hit on Ahri. Regular build on Ahri is just god awful, at least with syndra all her other builds are just as good, and DFG is just cream on top. Leblanc has the cancer chalice splitpush build. Katarina works just fine with Zhonya's first build, into DC -> voidstaff. DFG is optional. Veigar can use DFG, but not necessary for him. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 14 2015 11:31 wei2coolman wrote: IMO it's the biggest hit on Ahri. Regular build on Ahri is just god awful, at least with syndra all her other builds are just as good, and DFG is just cream on top. Leblanc has the cancer chalice splitpush build. Katarina works just fine with Zhonya's first build, into DC -> voidstaff. DFG is optional. Veigar can use DFG, but not necessary for him. Morellos/lichbane into nlr items/void staff, enjoy your nine-tails fox splitpush, not worse than LeBlanc at all. Actually, i want to see Riot completely overhauling Akali, but probably i'm just stupid and can't see possible holes in her kit because Riot won't remove resets from ult. Fizz is hard to judge, but i'd like to see him staying like he is, probably one of the most unique characters in game. | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On January 14 2015 11:07 PrinceXizor wrote: Its either effective health or shields. not both. and double the lifesteal doesn't mean anything if youhave the wrath elixir making up that gap. thats the point of the timing. its a timing in which you are stronger at fighting than someone who bought BT. period. I had a long ass post to Jazz about vel koz, but its not worth it. jazz you have a misunderstanding about how mid vel koz functions. he's extremely different due to how items function with him than a standard mid. you spend more time tankbusting than you do destroying squishies. I have played a lot of MidKoz actually. He does function differently I agree. I'm not going to walk up and DFG Mundo to tankbust as you suggest. You'll will be wrecked. You haven't justified putting yourself in harms way for potential damage when you can stay back and guarantee your damage from safety. | ||
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