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On November 20 2014 21:53 Scip wrote:
what are those most junglers you play
you aren't really giving me much help here
J4 lee GP Elise Khazix Sejuani sion galio trundle
and the three i view as the braindeads: fiddle nunu and ww.
i've only found a couple junglers that are better served killing the birds rather than going somewhere else the first clear. and most of them are junglers who have no problems with taking damage.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
What the hell, Galio jungle? 
Aren't AS runes better for Udyr to clear the jungle? I've been running AS runes instead of AD and it looks pretty decent as well.
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On November 20 2014 22:09 739 wrote:What the hell, Galio jungle? Aren't AS runes better for Udyr to clear the jungle? I've been running AS runes instead of AD and it looks pretty decent as well.
i had been trying to do galio jungle since before the change so i was stubborn and spend forever trying to get it to work again on the new jungle. its okay at best. he does benefit because he's very healthy and early ganks aren't as common so the downsides are mitigated a little, and when he hits 6 its a guaranteed win at dragon. but eh its weird. QWWQQR.
from what i can tell AS reds do better than AD on most junglers. i guess the exceptions would be stuff like darius jungle? though i haven't tried that one.
also scip. i just did eve to test her. i dunno what her ideal runes/masteries will be but i kinda did standardy stuff and was able to frog -> wolves ->red -> bird -> blue -> wolves without going back. i did have to kite a little bit on wolves and red to get some extra HP, but from what i know about eve jungle that's standard practice anyway?? I did it in a custom with no leash, but top can leash you on blueside for 100+ damage and support can leash you on redside.
also remember kids, if you are trying to learn a champ in jungle that doesn't do so hot, start off with 13 in utility when relearning him getting the potion masteries, the summoner's insight, and wealth. because 1 more potion and 120% effective potions and a short CD on smite will get you by where you couldn't before. then either ween yourself down to 9 in utility, or up to 21 depending on what you want to do. and then drop utility if there is a skill-based thing you can do to buff your jungling (like managing rengar stacks perfectly or eve kiting or khazix isolation), or you just flat out don't need it.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
Also why there is no new thread for patch 4.20 blaze it ?
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Monte's Super Huge Jungle Post Roundup!:
On November 20 2014 11:14 Alaric wrote:
Vi clears very slowly when she doesn't have mana because Q into E reset to nuke the small minions while doing a bunch of the big one's HP is how she clears.
She's probably going to suffer a lot into the new jungle: she relied a lot on Butcher's mana regen and it's very low now), and all monsters having 20% more HP means more than 20% longer to clear since Q comparatively deals a lot less damage and small minions are more likely to survive (and if small minions survive her initial combo she basically becomes WW in terms of clear speed).
Vi is absolutely fine. New Machete's mana regen is enough to keep Vi going no problem. 5 mana per second on the Machete upgrades is a pretty big deal, and you can even do cheeky things like leave one small Raptor up/beating on you to gain health and mana while waiting for an opportune moment to gank mid.
On November 20 2014 11:28 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 11:12 Celial wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sooooooo. Anyone who tested the new jungle on PBE and/or spent some time watching the PBE junglers care to weigh in on this?
Everybody says new jungle is supposed to resemble S1 jungle. So I took a look at the S1 finals, these are the competitive S1 junglers:
Nunu
Warwick
Amumu
Jarvan
Trundle
Gangplank
Nocturne
Also pretty popular tanky dudes (all time) and/or soloqueue stomper in S1 were:
Fiddle
Xin
Cho'gath
Udyr
Shen
Lee Sin
Master Yi
Warwick
Shaco
The common theme here is obviously the ability to sustain itself. These should all be among the better junglers (except maybe Gangplank).
But where do more modern picks like
Shyvana
Khazix
Vi
Rengar
etc
fall? Can they still do their thing? I don't think there's a jungler that can't jungle anymore, but I may be misguided on that. The only thing seriously affected is the first clear, which comes down to 2 groups. The first is champions who sustain from health gain like Warwick, or through damage mitigation like Amumu through E. They can clear all if not most of the jungle and back up upgrade machete and get boots. The second group can't safely make such a long initial clear and has to go back early for just a machete upgrade. Either way, they all end up roughly the same after a bit and it's all a matter of knowing what your champion can edure.
Having to go back early is actually a pretty big deal. You might be fine doing that for a while, but eventually you're going to end up against opponents who know your jungler can't handle the first clear in one go, and they'll punish you for it by stealing the other side of your jungle while you do so.
As such there are junglers who are going to fall by the wayside until changes come their way. Hecarim is the most notable one I can think of off the top of my head.
On November 20 2014 12:27 Vaporized wrote:
that new jungle.... is pretty fking cool.
first try i did wukong with 1 armor quint and armor yellows. got wrecked by golems and wraiths. had to back and could not do red buff. this was in a custom... if i got a leash on golems i probably could have done one more camp or red.
then i tried warwick. never got below half health (never really got below 3/4 health), went golems-wraiths-red-wolves-blue without backing and still had one health pot out of the 2 i started with. fucking op.
vi - slightly better then wukong.
im noticing a trend. carry junglers (21-9-0) with no sustain have to back after 2-3 camps.
zac did pretty good, not as good as warwick, but better then vi or wukong.
yi seemed really good.
once you get the machete upgrade the jungle is sadly trivial once again, or at least thats my impression. yi could clear the whole thing before it started respawning once i got rangers upgrade.
21-9-0 is probably a mastery setup that only the very best sustain junglers will be able to use. Most of my mastery setups on the PBE were split between all three trees or focused heavily on defense.
Don't underestimate the value of faster Smites and longer buff durations (there are a lot of buffs now!).
On November 20 2014 13:11 iCanada wrote:
First impression of new jungle: Wtf start golem smite every game.
o.o
Big blob thing sucks, dont smite it ever.
EDIT: Feels like there is less XP in the jungle. I keep hitting 6 later than I would in S4 jungle. Maybe it s arunes thing, I bet AS runes significantly out-preform AD runes right now with Machete changes.
Also feels like there is a lot of downtime if you just hardclear your jungle. Which is awesome, gives room for counterjungling, ganking, etc.
Reminds me of S1.
The DoT from the frog actually does almost as much damage as the Machete DoT. It's worth Smiting to help clear if you need speed more than survivability.
Originally Smite was giving 80 bonus experience every time you killed a camp with it and junglers were hitting level 6 at like 5:40 gametime. Riot might have swung things too far the other way. How fast were you hitting level 6 before?
On November 20 2014 18:35 Alaric wrote:
If Vi not only is slow, but almost dies like Wukong, I'm not sure I even want to have a glimpse of how Nautilus performs.
Nautilus is a little slow at first, but sustains like a boss. He's actually one of the safer junglers*.
*I was using a full armor rune page.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
What do you mean standardy stuff on Eve PX? I use AD reds+quints, AP blues and armor yellows, 21/9/0 taking both flat AP and AD in defense. At what time do you finish that 6 camp clear?
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On November 20 2014 22:47 Scip wrote:
What do you mean standardy stuff on Eve PX? I use AD reds+quints, AP blues and armor yellows, 21/9/0 taking both flat AP and AD in defense. At what time do you finish that 6 camp clear?
I used what i thought would be decent for eve, without any real knowledge of how to jungle her, Atk speed red Ap/lvl blue Armor yellow flat AP quint. but thats literally me not knowing what im doing on her so i just guessed based on what i. there are almost certainly more ideal runes.
gonna try it with your way since you know more than me and get back to you with the time.
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Isn't the issue that Nautilus' shield breaks easily at early levels, which is more of a constraint than his actual damage (his clear was actually respectable until the shield dropped, at which point he was one of the most hopeless things in the world, so you relied on getting the shield to level 2 asap), so monsters with more HP -> they won't die before the shield breaks -> sad scuba?
It was basically a huge gamble to gank before level 3 previously since level 1 shield cleared so slowly (even with smite up, little wolves or golems still took ages to kill), he was also extremely reliant on a leash (read: he could easily lose 15-20s on his first buff if the leash was minimal or inexistant, and it makes him burn an additional pot, meaning he's used all of them after blue buff if he wants to stay healthy) and even then fast junglers could do a buff -> buff invade even from across the map (so red -> red for example) and be done and away before he arrived.
What do you mean by "slow at first"? Very first clear? Until he reaches level 3?
Obviously the skill order is WEWQ anyway with the harder jungle, I don't see myself attempting a level 3 gank at all anymore.
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ok this kalista gal is really stupid. understand why she's almost perma banned.
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On November 20 2014 22:55 Alaric wrote:
Isn't the issue that Nautilus' shield breaks easily at early levels, which is more of a constraint than his actual damage (his clear was actually respectable until the shield dropped, at which point he was one of the most hopeless things in the world, so you relied on getting the shield to level 2 asap), so monsters with more HP -> they won't die before the shield breaks -> sad scuba?
It was basically a huge gamble to gank before level 3 previously since level 1 shield cleared so slowly (even with smite up, little wolves or golems still took ages to kill), he was also extremely reliant on a leash (read: he could easily lose 15-20s on his first buff if the leash was minimal or inexistant, and it makes him burn an additional pot, meaning he's used all of them after blue buff if he wants to stay healthy) and even then fast junglers could do a buff -> buff invade even from across the map (so red -> red for example) and be done and away before he arrived.
What do you mean by "slow at first"? Very first clear? Until he reaches level 3?
Obviously the skill order is WEWQ anyway with the harder jungle, I don't see myself attempting a level 3 gank at all anymore.
Except you start Frog and just bask in the glory of free AoE damage, or Golems (Krugs? Is that what these are now?) and allow the free stun to give your shield some extra life.
Like I said he's a little slow at first, but his shield gives him a lot of durability. I imagine he's faster running AD or something other than full Armor like I did.
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SCIP: 4:45ish is when i finished frog -> wolves -> red -> bird -> blue -> wolves with atk speed red, 2 AD quints 1 armor quint, armor yellow, ap/lvl blue, 21/9. kited the melee camps so i took barely any damage from them.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Actually, disregard my earlier testing on Eve. Fking NA lag lowering my dps by delaying every Q. You can go
frog->blue>wolves>wraiths>red in 3:21 with the rune+mastery setup I mentioned. Seems to be the best one so far.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
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On November 20 2014 23:06 Scip wrote:
you mean 3:45ish right?
uhh shit gonna do it again. this time writing stuff down i did use 3 smites though.
im dumb sometimes. btw i'm also stopping every route to drop a trinket ward in the river bush by dragon befoire red
EDIT: its 4;20 with stopping to ward before red, which added like 12 seconds to the time, to clear 6 camps with my path and kiting with eve. also do i max Q or E? i was going QEE? dunno if thats right... also im certain im not positioning her well, since a lot of my hate spikes were missing the whole camp so on a few camps i had to spend 3 seconds to finish off the last guy. so im certain you can do it faster. probably look at 4 minutes if you cut the ward time out and properly aim the hate spikes? maybe more?? i genuinely do not know how to jungle eve other than watching someone else do it from time to time. xD
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Even 3:50 would be pretty pathetic with Eve. You max Q, you go QEQW. You should never use scaling runes on junglers, also attack speed sucks on Eve since she already gets 40% from E and has 2 big AD ratios. I honestly don't see how the path you're trying works at all though
Like your smite isn't even up for red buff, you kill it or drop it down to 50 hp before your smite even comes up. I don't get it
also, why do you go to ward that brush before doing red? that ward does literally less than nothing
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You max Q and you don't move to put your ward down. You want the clears to be as close as possible to be able to compare them more accurately, be it in time, experience, health level, consumables used, etc.
So you just clear, nothing else.
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On November 20 2014 23:21 Scip wrote:
Even 3:50 would be pretty pathetic with Eve. You max Q, you go QEQW. You should never use scaling runes on junglers, also attack speed sucks on Eve since she already gets 40% from E and has 2 big AD ratios. I honestly don't see how the path you're trying works at all though
Like your smite isn't even up for red buff, you kill it or drop it down to 50 hp before your smite even comes up. I don't get it
also, why do you go to ward that brush before doing red? that ward does literally less than nothing
like i said. i don't know how to jungle with eve. so im guessing on everything and probably doing it very sloppy. I never have an issue running scaling on junglers as long as im not trying to throw scaling onto a primary jungling stat like atk speed armor or ad/ap depending on the champion.
and i always just throw a ward down when testing clears, so its normalized for me, even if the ward doesn't do anything its just a placeholder in my route for something that may happen in a real game
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Why would you ward that bush?That doesn't make any sense at all.Like you should even be clearing faster in a real game since you can ask someone to help with some damage...
You should use that ward to check bushes while doing a buff or just warding after a gank attempt to cover your laner.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
because showing is easier than explaining
http://www.twitch.tv/scipaeus/c/5533795
5 camps in 3:19
don't think you can do all that much better than that, maybe with perfect micro you can cut it down to 3:17 or something.
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On November 20 2014 23:42 nafta wrote:
Why would you ward that bush?That doesn't make any sense at all.Like you should even be clearing faster in a real game since you can ask someone to help with some damage...
You should use that ward to check bushes while doing a buff or just warding after a gank attempt to cover your laner.
because its not about the ward. its about being able to set aside time in your clear to help your team and be able to judge your junglers worth if a situation arises at that timing its right about the third wave so bot lane is looking to start a fight typically, so the ward saps time out of the route when im testing in order to account for and give a static time in which i can judge my ability to fight. i did it in the old jungle after double buffs as well. its not for function its for testing purposes.
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EPT
