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[Patch 4.17] Soraka/Viktor General Discussion - Page 73

Forum Index > LoL General
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wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
October 08 2014 06:31 GMT
#1441


hngggg, fear not folks. all the goodness is still gunna be here.
liftlift > tsm
OhTwoMise
Profile Joined September 2012
United States164 Posts
October 08 2014 06:47 GMT
#1442
On October 08 2014 05:28 Alaric wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2014 05:01 lilwisper wrote:
On October 08 2014 04:52 Alaric wrote:
Who's Toto? Herc? And who's the Mage Slayer (are you thinking of Antimage? Never remembered him jungling, but I started during the very last 5. versions and it quickly moved onto 6.).


Toto was the nickname for Titan of the Order. He was this big grey golem champ for Sent. His 6 was to pull everything to him and then you used another ability to aoe stun. Mage Slayer was the mana burner w/ Blink for the Scourge. He was purple w/ the two blades. Herc was this big orange orc with the healing totems and had a battle cry for his 6.

Oh. Rework/changed I guess. I thought Elder Titan was much more recent than that though, and Mage Slayer became Antimage and was sentinel, yeah.
Herc became Juggernaut it seems (got Omnislash for an ult now), with Sven getting the "battle cry" ult (if that's the thing that just doubles or triples his damage).


TotO was actually closer to Magnus than Elder Titan, but aside from the PBAoE vacuum ult (which did not stun by itself and had friendly fire), he didn't have much in common with either.

Interestingly, Frost (Crystal) Maiden, Tormented Soul (AKA Leshrac), Omniknight and Dragon Knight are almost entirely unchanged except for the extra scaling granted by more than 10 levels. Troll, Juggernaut and Clinkz are reasonably close. Lifestealer, Lycanthrope, Necrolyte (eh...), Anti-mage, Void are all largely recognizable, but entirely different. That is, Lycanthrope is still a dude that turns into a wolf, but the rest of his spells aren't even close--he used to have proto-Dark Seer Ion Shell, complete with friendly fire. Razor/Storm Spirit (were one hero originally), Earthshaker (debatable), Phantom Lancer, and probably a couple I'm forgetting have their genesis in Eul's original map and you can--or at least you could if you had the intermediaries--trace this, but aside from names and hero models (and even those weren't always there), are completely unrecognizable.

A lot of heroes got dropped entirely. I think some of them could have been (at least conceptually) reasonable in modern DotA, but Allstars was incredibly kill/1v1 focused in its genesis and a lot of the heroes that didn't do or facilitate those things got dropped, which included most of the pushers, siegers, and just kind of supportey heroes in general. And if you knew the original map (or any of the other maps that got cannibalized) well, you can see a lot of relics that just kind of got grandfathered in. Nightstalker, for instance, has an ability called Void, that was originally on the Void Demon (later to become Faceless Void). There isn't really a reason for it to be called Void except that it almost certainly got copy-pasted from the other hero--even the visual effect was the same.
JazzVortical
Profile Joined July 2013
Australia1825 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-08 07:54:17
October 08 2014 07:53 GMT
#1443
Itemisation is just a problematic all around My top three:

Penetration still isn't fixed. Taking the Void Staff example, It's nonsensical that Void Staff is a better damage item than Deathcap. Void Staff should not be a ubiquitous purchase on an AP damage dealer. It should be situational item - "Oh wow 3 people on their team have 200 MR, better get a Void Staff", not " I want to blow up that ~100 MR ADC even harder".

Meaningful, interesting actives. Riot had a big chance to make something like this happen with the Bloodthirster changes. They could have implemented something like: "create a shield around yourself for X amount. The shield can only be created after it is charged with your lifesteal". Means the shield can be powerful and meaningful, as it isn't going to be up all the time. Still only a shield, but more interesting than the current passive.

End game, "big" items are too cheap. IE for example is a joke. Shouldn't slot efficient items be cost inefficient or only just cost efficient?
kongoline
Profile Joined February 2012
6318 Posts
October 08 2014 08:08 GMT
#1444
then u also have ryze who itemizes all the "cheap" items and still hits the hyper carry status despite the fact his 6item build is a lot cheaper than anybody else in game
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
October 08 2014 08:25 GMT
#1445
Heroes only had 10 levels at the start of AllStars? Thought it was always 25.

On October 08 2014 12:11 ketchup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2014 12:01 wei2coolman wrote:
On October 08 2014 11:57 TheYango wrote:
Except even then, it's not really a good item for a support.

Not all actives that help your team inherently make sense for a support to carry.
.
In this case, the active makes most sense to put on the champion that's actually initiating the dive (because it's easiest for that champion to coordinate the timing on the active that maximizes it's effectiveness), which isn't the support a lot of the time

Or... communication... WHOA! Mind blown!

If solo q players can coordinate a basic botlane dive to relative success, I'm pretty sure something like Ohmwreckers can work just fine.


?? Not sure if I'm understanding this chain of posts. If you can juggle tower aggro using just plain movement + communication, why is an item like that even needed? There is very little to no incentive to actually buy that item because of the high cost + low effective usage rate.

Try juggling tower aggro when diving Ziggs/Braum/Rumble or something.
(Obviously you want to splitpush against that, not dive the cancer man, but you see the point.)

On October 08 2014 10:21 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2014 10:19 cLutZ wrote:
Just as an aside, it does make little sense that you can only have 1 gold gen item. Particularly when they have different actives that all could be good in unison. Its like if you couldnt have DFG and Zhonyas at once.

It seems deliberately to prevent the possibility of having multiple of the actives because otherwise, they would have just made the gold generation components unique (and let the poor cost-effectiveness of having multiples when you only get gold generation from one of them prevent it from being common).

Why they consider this to be better gameplay, I have no idea.

It was because in their playtests with pro players they'd buy all 3 gold generation items and end up the richest of each team every game, by a margin of several thousands. Some screenshots leaked and people went crazy about it.
So Riot just decided to make these items mutually exclusive, and they also made the jungle items "gold items" because fuck you golem/talisman utility jungler.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
October 08 2014 09:11 GMT
#1446
I'm sure they'll just introduce Pipe instead. The problem with the "boring" playstyle is that your champs clear waves so fast the enemy team can't really attack the tower, pipe solves this issue. It used to be one of the ways team broke highground in dota until a bunch of shit changed.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
October 08 2014 09:28 GMT
#1447
Locket is already their Pipe.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
October 08 2014 09:30 GMT
#1448
On October 08 2014 18:28 Alaric wrote:
Locket is already their Pipe.


Doesn't activate on creeps which is the main thing they need.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-08 10:07:02
October 08 2014 09:54 GMT
#1449
Riot actually explicitly removed the ability to shield minions (you can still E an allied minion as Lulu, but only for proxy-Q purposes, it doesn't grant them the shield; Soraka lost the ability to heal them at one point too), they wouldn't introduce such a thing.

It was a "bad" mechanic because people used it to mess up their opponents' last hitting.

Edit: according to the wiki you can shield minions as Karma, I don't know if they get the buffs though (or if it's an oversight and she can only target champions).
Yup, did a quick search and she could at least as of March this year. So I guess Karma can shield minions. Not like it'll do much to stop a Ziggs or Xerath clear.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
October 08 2014 10:00 GMT
#1450
Yea you right. Forget how "toxic" gets in the way of gameplay all the time.
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
October 08 2014 10:11 GMT
#1451
--- Nuked ---
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
October 08 2014 10:30 GMT
#1452
You can shield minions as Karma. It's kind of a waste of mana in lane, but pretty useful when pushing towers. Alistar also heals minions.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
Prog
Profile Joined December 2009
United Kingdom1470 Posts
October 08 2014 11:44 GMT
#1453
Sometimes shielding minions is also good for dealing damage with the mantrad shield. Doesn't happen too often, but it is something to remember when playing Karma.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
October 08 2014 11:49 GMT
#1454
It was actually good on original Karma, but I'm not so sure about the current one, with RE dealing much less damage.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
October 08 2014 11:59 GMT
#1455
The original Karma was one of the worst champions in the game.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
October 08 2014 12:00 GMT
#1456
On October 08 2014 20:59 Sufficiency wrote:
The original Karma was one of the worst champions in the game.


There was even a team comp that involved her in the game. Hardly one of the worst, she wasn't great but not terrible either. There were far worse heroes in the game.
kongoline
Profile Joined February 2012
6318 Posts
October 08 2014 12:40 GMT
#1457
gnar is so obnoxious to lane against i actually prefer to lane agaisnt ryze as melee
Eiii
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2566 Posts
October 08 2014 13:45 GMT
#1458
On October 08 2014 17:08 kongoline wrote:
then u also have ryze who itemizes all the "cheap" items and still hits the hyper carry status despite the fact his 6item build is a lot cheaper than anybody else in game


having differences between champions or some champions who don't fit the same mold as most others is fine.
:3
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
October 08 2014 14:05 GMT
#1459
On October 08 2014 21:00 Numy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2014 20:59 Sufficiency wrote:
The original Karma was one of the worst champions in the game.


There was even a team comp that involved her in the game. Hardly one of the worst, she wasn't great but not terrible either. There were far worse heroes in the game.


Not worst in terms of power. Worst in terms of design.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
October 08 2014 14:10 GMT
#1460
On October 08 2014 23:05 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2014 21:00 Numy wrote:
On October 08 2014 20:59 Sufficiency wrote:
The original Karma was one of the worst champions in the game.


There was even a team comp that involved her in the game. Hardly one of the worst, she wasn't great but not terrible either. There were far worse heroes in the game.


Not worst in terms of power. Worst in terms of design.

And how do you judge that, o great Sufficiency?
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
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