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On October 08 2014 10:42 Ketara wrote:
Like, here's the logic.
What we were asking for at the end of season 3 is support items like this:
800g, nothing on it but an active.
I posited something along those lines, but the complaint had nothing to do with lack of stats they were paying for, it was paying for relatively useless stats. Like, when I brought up ohmwrecker a couple pages back, I said remove the AP cost because no support really wants to pay 1k for 50 ap. Maybe if the 1k of cost was something more useful like more tank stats, ms or cdr, or some combination of that, it would be a far better support item.
On October 08 2014 10:24 Ketara wrote:
Hell, I think the new support items have been a gigantic success. Could still use some balancing but overall the intended results have already been accomplished. I take it I'm alone on TL in this thought.
Have they though? The go to support items are pretty similar. The only difference now is supports have more money to spend, so they get the items more frequently. But the actual item diversity for supports really hasn't changed
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On October 08 2014 10:24 Ketara wrote:
Hell, I think the new support items have been a gigantic success. Could still use some balancing but overall the intended results have already been accomplished. I take it I'm alone on TL in this thought.
I agree, actually. I like the support items. Does it shoe-horn supports into having a certain item by their type? Yeah, but that isn't special to supports.
Even if somebody dislikes them, it's still a fuck ton better job than they did with jungle items.
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On October 08 2014 11:46 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 10:42 Ketara wrote:
Like, here's the logic.
What we were asking for at the end of season 3 is support items like this:
800g, nothing on it but an active.
I posited something along those lines, but the complaint had nothing to do with lack of stats they were paying for, it was paying for relatively useless stats. Like, when I brought up ohmwrecker a couple pages back, I said remove the AP cost because no support really wants to pay 1k for 50 ap. Maybe if the 1k of cost was something more useful like more tank stats, ms or cdr, or some combination of that, it would be a far better support item.
Ohmwrecker used to give tank stats. But then why would you ever build it when you can instead buy a tank item and tank the tower instead.
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United States47024 Posts
Ohmwrecker's also really just not that interesting of an active. I don't know why people always come back to that item when to me the active seems boring as hell.
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If it actually disabled the tower for a more than a hiccup's time then it would at least have a midgame timing for tower dives regardless of whether or not other items would make you more tanky in the long run.
I agree though, not my favorite item active.
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On October 08 2014 11:54 TheYango wrote:
Ohmwrecker's also really just not that interesting of an active. I don't know why people always come back to that item when to me the active seems boring as hell.
Because the active if buffed was meant to counter an even more boring style. Stall comps.
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United States47024 Posts
Except even then, it's not really a good item for a support.
Not all actives that help your team inherently make sense for a support to carry.
.
In this case, the active makes most sense to put on the champion that's actually initiating the dive (because it's easiest for that champion to coordinate the timing on the active that maximizes it's effectiveness), which isn't the support a lot of the time
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On October 08 2014 11:54 phyvo wrote:
If it actually disabled the tower for a more than a hiccup's time then it would at least have a midgame timing for tower dives regardless of whether or not other items would make you more tanky in the long run.
I agree though, not my favorite item active.
Unfortunately Riot is allergic to powerful actives on items. After the Mikhael's nerf, the was a red post that said they didn't like how strong it was because the active made the champion's kit less important.
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mikael's is one of the worst items to ever happen to this game and a big part of the adc meta.
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On October 08 2014 11:57 TheYango wrote:
Except even then, it's not really a good item for a support.
Not all actives that help your team inherently make sense for a support to carry.
.
In this case, the active makes most sense to put on the champion that's actually initiating the dive (because it's easiest for that champion to coordinate the timing on the active that maximizes it's effectiveness), which isn't the support a lot of the time
Or... communication... WHOA! Mind blown!
If solo q players can coordinate a basic botlane dive to relative success, I'm pretty sure something like Ohmwreckers can work just fine.
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The Ohmwrecker active is fine. It not only disables the tower, it resets the towers aggro and resets its scaling damage, so in a dive it's a pretty big deal. It serves a definite purpose, as an item you get when your team has no poke potential and must force engages under towers.
The problem is that the active on it and the stats on it don't line up with each other. Yango's right, you want it on a champion who will be diving, and diving champions don't want AP.
The other problem is that its cost efficiency is just completely terrible. 50 AP and 350 HP for 2k gold? An -unstacked- Rod of Ages is more efficient than that.
The problem with Banner of Command is that while its stats are good, its active is super awkward and hard to use in a good way. It actually looks really good on paper on a number of champions in a number of situations, and then you actually build it in a game and you hate the thing because of how awkward the active is.
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On October 08 2014 12:01 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 11:57 TheYango wrote:
Except even then, it's not really a good item for a support.
Not all actives that help your team inherently make sense for a support to carry.
.
In this case, the active makes most sense to put on the champion that's actually initiating the dive (because it's easiest for that champion to coordinate the timing on the active that maximizes it's effectiveness), which isn't the support a lot of the time Or... communication... WHOA! Mind blown! If solo q players can coordinate a basic botlane dive to relative success, I'm pretty sure something like Ohmwreckers can work just fine.
?? Not sure if I'm understanding this chain of posts. If you can juggle tower aggro using just plain movement + communication, why is an item like that even needed? There is very little to no incentive to actually buy that item because of the high cost + low effective usage rate.
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On October 08 2014 10:40 DiracMonopole wrote:
One thing I have never understood about LoL itemization - why are higher power items MORE efficient? There should be a penalty to pay for higher slot efficiency.
You do pay a price. But it's in build efficiency. All of the high gold high slot efficient items contain BF swords or NLRs. So you need to have 1600+ gold on a back in order to efficiently pick them up. This naturally delays your back and puts you at a disadvantage compared to someone who bought in that space. While carrys tend to buy the gold and slot efficient items tanks and supports and fighters tend to buy the build and gold efficient items.
That is the third design aspect that you're forgetting and how items that aren't the top gold and slot efficiency items still exist in the game. I had a big post on it on the forums but it's migrated to an unused board and I can't grab it from my phone. On October 08 2014 12:01 VayneAuthority wrote:
mikael's is one of the worst items to ever happen to this game and a big part of the adc meta.
The adc meta has existed long before mikaels. And will continue to do so not because of mikaels but because consistent dps is a necessary component of a balanced team fight and ADs are the champions that full that role
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United States47024 Posts
There's also the fact that shutting down a tower isn't very exciting from a design standpoint, nor does using it feel particularly skillful or clutch.
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Ohmwrecker is going to get removed.
It's a winner wins more kind of item and it is impossible to balance. Good thing it has been so costly and cost unefficient that no one buys it.
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Ohmrekter should spawn siege minion, not bigger siege cannon lol. I can see that being viable
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Ohmwrecker is the one that shuts down tower shots, not spawns a bigger siege minion 
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How 'bout this: one of the new jungle items lets you smite a tower to disable it.
BOOM
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On October 08 2014 12:29 Sufficiency wrote:
Ohmwrecker is going to get removed.
It's a winner wins more kind of item and it is impossible to balance. Good thing it has been so costly and cost unefficient that no one buys it.
In a 1v1 game it's a winner wins more scenario, but in a 5v5 scenario it's a tool that allows you to force objectives with numbers earlier than you typically could.
Say your mid lane is losing to enemy Ziggs, if any jungler actually want Ohmwrecker you could spend that gold and dive a normally safe ass ziggs comparatively rather easily. Problem is that Ohmwrecker is itemized as an AP carry item, when AP carries don't need to ever really dive in the traditional sense anyway, they deal front loaded burst.
The only reason ohmwrecker isn't awesome is because anyone who would want it doesn't want to spend 1.3k gold on AP.
If they made it armor or mr instead of ap I'd probably buy it every game.
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alistar is the only person that can afford to get it and he doesnt need help diving
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EPT
