EPT[Patch 4.17] Soraka/Viktor General Discussion - Page 71
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
And Riot wants players to be able to buy what they want to buy, so they decided to create high efficiency items that had things on them that only supports would want, so that support players would naturally want what is best for them to have. It's pretty logical really. It's not as easy as doing it the other way and might take another year of balancing to get perfect, but the end result is better. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 08 2014 09:48 FinestHour wrote: ziggs Ziggs vs Morde is kind of even. Ziggs is not overwhelmingly better vs Morde and if you want to counterpick you are better off picking something else. (disclaimer: haven't played Morde in a while, take the following as only a rough guideline) Impossible for Morde: Zyra (RIP old Cassiopeia...), Chogath Really hard: Lux, Ryze, Swain, Veigar, TF (for somewhat different reasons) Mostly even: Ziggs, Syndra, Ahri, Karthus, etc. Huehuehue: Kassadin, Fizz, Akali, Talon, Zed, Katarina, Diana, etc. Generally speaking vs melee champions Morde has upper hand until around level 9, against long range, specially the ones with long range CC, he has a lot of problems with. Chogath is probably the most brain dead counter vs Mordekaiser. Or you can just convince your jungler to pick Lee Sin. In that case it doesn't really matter what you want to play. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 08 2014 10:19 cLutZ wrote: Just as an aside, it does make little sense that you can only have 1 gold gen item. Particularly when they have different actives that all could be good in unison. Its like if you couldnt have DFG and Zhonyas at once. It seems deliberately to prevent the possibility of having multiple of the actives because otherwise, they would have just made the gold generation components unique (and let the poor cost-effectiveness of having multiples when you only get gold generation from one of them prevent it from being common). Why they consider this to be better gameplay, I have no idea. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 08 2014 10:21 Ketara wrote: Their thought process was that if they created high utility low slot efficiency items for supports, supports would buy them but they'd still WANT to buy high slot efficiency items. In a dream 2 hour game they probably still would. And Riot wants players to be able to buy what they want to buy, so they decided to create high efficiency items that had things on them that only supports would want, so that support players would naturally want what is best for them to have. It's pretty logical really. It's not as easy as doing it the other way and might take another year of balancing to get perfect, but the end result is better. That made no sense to me, so I'm not sure how it's logical. Like, what's your basis that there's some visceral response that support players have to certain items that makes them want to buy them? Why would a player who does not max out all 6 item slots care about slot-efficiency in any way? Why was it necessary to lock the item effects to "support-only" items? On October 08 2014 10:24 Ketara wrote: Hell, I think the new support items have been a gigantic success. Could still use some balancing but overall the intended results have already been accomplished. I take it I'm alone on TL in this thought. I think it's hard to disagree that they achieved their intended result--it's just whether this intended result is the best way to approach support itemization from a game design standpoint. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
For a professional player it doesn't really make a difference. They'll want to buy what's best for winning the game. But for a casual player it does make a difference. Riot was very clear about this with the season 4 support changes. They wanted to create support items that a bronze league support player would go "Ooh that's awesome, I want to buy that!" so that not only are they doing the optimal play for the game, they're also doing what they wanted to do in the first place. And I think they were tremendously successful. Compared to season 3 the number of times I see a support not buy Sightstone or not start GP10 item has gone down tremendously. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On October 08 2014 10:24 Ketara wrote: Hell, I think the new support items have been a gigantic success. Could still use some balancing but overall the intended results have already been accomplished. I take it I'm alone on TL in this thought. More players in soloq are willing to play support, especially in the middle quartiles of high bronze/low silver which definitely makes the game more fun and drives their revenue stream The problem is that it sets up the game to become increasingly harder and harder to fit to all of their fancy Buzzword Design Goals like Meaningful Choice and Strategic Diversity because and item that says "gain gold for free as long as you don't gain gold from the normal generation path" does literally only one thing and can't be reappropriated or put into the context of anything else I understand that a F2P casual alternative to DotA2 can't be driven solely by competitive balance because there isn't enough differentiation now that MOBA is the new genre fad (like 90s RTS). However, you can still balance for the casual players in a way that doesn't back you up in a corner. I think Blizzard's Hearthstone has some of the best balance in it given their design restraints (games play fast, you don't have to do anything on your turn, F2P model means Legionaries have to be meaningful, enough RNG so that bad players can blame RNG/do epic things instead of quitting the game). The skillcap for it as a competitive game is probably limited by how much RNG there is, but at high legend you still have Strategic Diversity and Meaningful Choice, while at low ranks and casual games really random oppressive stuff can still be balanced for even if that card never gets played at the high levels. Plus they add new cards with minimal direction on what it is for or what it can do, compared to the constant Riot-enforced-Meta jokes we get around here.* *Riot does have an extra constraint, which is that as a team game, they need to design the game in a way where you don't immediately blame your teammates. Which does mean having to somewhat enforce parity between the way the game plays at a low level and how players believe the game should be played at a high level. If you see Holy Wrath or Magma Rager in Hearthstone, you can't BM the opponent even if you think "damn what shit cards" and winning or losing is fairly inconsequential. If you see Void Staff Garen in league you immediately can BM your teammates -- if you end up winning you don't apologize or go back on your biases, and if you lose you will flame the shit out of the game. | ||
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DiracMonopole
United States1555 Posts
Like, what's your basis that there's some visceral response that support players have to certain items that makes them want to buy them? Why would a player who does not max out all 6 item slots care about slot-efficiency in any way? Plenty of people get 6 items in game. Double dorans, boots, pots, ward is already 5 items. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On October 08 2014 10:40 DiracMonopole wrote: One thing I have never understood about LoL itemization - why are higher power items MORE efficient? There should be a penalty to pay for higher slot efficiency. Plenty of people get 6 items in game. Double dorans, boots, pots, ward is already 5 items. cause they hated low cost very efficient items like heart of gold and old doran items | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
What we were asking for at the end of season 3 is support items like this: 800g, nothing on it but an active. That definitely would have worked from a game balance perspective, and an intelligent, well researched player would get it and be super happy about that. The problem is that the unintelligent filthy Reddit casual (lololol) looks at it like this. "800g for no stats? Fuck that. I don't want to help my team with an active. I want AP so I can do damage and get a pentakill on my support Sona." This presents a serious problem for casual play because your players are not going to WANT the new itemization. Even if they buy it it's not going to feel as good as what they wanted, to buy a bunch of AP items. So what they did was go on this grand quest to make items that A - only supports would want, and B - supports would really really really want no matter what they're thinking about doing with their game. It's a loftier and more difficult goal, but in hindsight I think they've done really well with it. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On October 08 2014 10:42 Frolossus wrote: cause they hated low cost very efficient items like heart of gold and old doran items Sure but having high cost very efficient items is equally terrible. There should be real mid-game items -- items you're willing to just sit on and not finish the build for -- besides brutalizer and hexdrinker (maybe seekers too, chalice could've been here but then they had to add tons of great upgrade paths and make the efficiency of other items so good that you can't go casual chalice anymore on non-APs) Having the most expensive items in the game also be the most efficient is terrible from the theoretical game economy viewpoint and also terrible through decades of empirical evaluation of how items are costed in any game where you have to buy them (RTS, RPG, FPS, Action/Adventure, etc) | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On October 08 2014 10:49 xes wrote: Sure but having high cost very efficient items is equally terrible. There should be real mid-game items -- items you're willing to just sit on and not finish the build for -- besides brutalizer and hexdrinker (maybe seekers too, chalice could've been here but then they had to add tons of great upgrade paths and make the efficiency of other items so good that you can't go casual chalice anymore on non-APs) Having the most expensive items in the game also be the most efficient is terrible from the theoretical game economy viewpoint and also terrible through decades of empirical evaluation of how items are costed in any game where you have to buy them (RTS, RPG, FPS, Action/Adventure, etc) chalice probably would still be a very viable item but i think the problem was more that they adjusted mana regen globally enough to offset it's necessity. i agree that endgame items being efficient is bad. as the game is right now having a complete IE is always going to be better than the sum of the parts. this encourages players to try to finish whole items as quickly as possible instead of holding onto the parts | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 08 2014 10:42 Ketara wrote: What we were asking for at the end of season 3 is support items like this: 800g, nothing on it but an active. No, no we weren't. There were a few people in GD who posited that idea, but for the reasons you stated, that's fucking stupid. Fortunately, you don't have to design items like that. If you have a slot-inefficient item, you have room for it to be cost-efficient. It can be very compelling to buy on cost and you don't have to make a support sac their own stats because if the item is slot-inefficient, it can be worth the gold to make up for it while still being un-compelling to a core champ because of how quickly they'd sell it off when the team still wants it. Like, let's not forget that we had an item that actually fit the parameters of a good support item: Locket. Buildup, cost, stats, and effect all within the parameters of what a support wants. Item is compelling enough on a basic level that non-supports actually want to buy it (and supports are happy getting it because it's actually a good item). The only flaw was that the actual active was kind of boring, but that's something you can easily design cool actives for. For whatever reason, Riot didn't like that. Maybe because the item was a support item that was compelling for non-supports some of the time (the same thing happened to Shurelya's). So they nerfed the item. When the item was nerfed, people said "well now Riot can design other more interesting support actives to take it's place"--well that never fucking happened. We didn't get anything in that realm through the rest of S3, which is what led to the no-items ward-bitch status for them at the end of S3. If your problem is that supports have envy for items that core heroes would buy, why would you not design support items that core heroes have envy for? | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
instead of you know, making cost efficient items that fit other roles better but dead end earlier so they buy those instead. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On October 08 2014 08:52 Merlin the Tuna wrote: RE: The Morde talk from a few pages back. I remember seeing a guide way back when that suggested running spell vamp quints so you could skip Hextech entirely and go straight for AP items instead. Has anyone given that a shot lately? It's one of those things I'd love to give a go if runes weren't a complete kick in the dick to buy. THe thing is spellvamp is actually very weak on Mordekaiser early as all abilitiesare AoE so you'll only gain weak leach from spell vamp early, originally I ran spell vamp quints. But after I tried either flat resists, MS and MPen quints I'd never go back, they all 3 just felt flat out stronger. *Flat resists quints to counter my opponent if it's a hard lane. *MS if it's a gank heavy jangler. *For scaling into the 1v2 God Mordekaiser are. From my experience you're much better off with buying 5 pots every back and then delaying spellvamp. I'm personally a huge fan of having MS quints on Mordekaiser, it's the only way you can do something about his biggest weakness - ganks before you reach your 1v2 point. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Aside from the GP10 items, which have been artificially restricted as support only, the other big support items are Sightstone (regularly bought on junglers in pro play), Locket (occasionally bought on non supports), and Mikhaels (bought on non supports on rare occasions). Other than that, the other "support" items like Banner of Command, Ohmwrecker, Twin Shadows etc, are hardly ever bought on anybody and really do need some rebalancing. I'd like to see them get to that. Twin Shadows is in an okay spot, but the other two very much are not. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
You are way better off running health regen quints. | ||
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