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On September 18 2014 22:29 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 22:15 obesechicken13 wrote:On September 18 2014 16:26 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On September 18 2014 13:01 iCanada wrote:
How is everyone feeling about Azir?
Played him a couple times and he is definitely interesting. Feels more like an ADC than a mage, tbh. I could actually see him being played as the carry position in lieu of an ADC. Big huuuge damage, like absurd damage, but man he is squishy. Like Big time squishy. With Abyssal and Athenes I died in 1 combo to a level 14 Malzahar without DFG about a 3rd of the way through his R. Like, mega squishy. I had scaling MR glyphs too, and I was level 18 (I bodied him in lane, but I think that was just because I'm a play player and he was a bronzie, yay teambuilder, definitely feels like a competent opponent would shit on him in lane on a lot of champions, can't really win trades unless he presses E, and in which case he is all in as fuck). Thats like 120 MR and I just like popped, all he had was sorc shoes and a Liandry's.
. Malzahar crushes everyone dude, just pray that no pro ever plays him or he'll get the Talon treatment. I hate the Malz vs Brand Matchup because Brand just outranges me. I don't think Lux is that great either. Leblanc used to be terrible but she got nerfed a lot. Uh can't you just hide behind minions and laugh at Brand when he can't match your waveclear ever (nor your mana sustain early on)?
That's what I try to do until he walks up to me and presses W. If every matchup were just "stay behind minions and push" Malz would never die. Also he pushes pretty well compared to you if W hits everything. Your E is more mana efficient for the damage but it acts more slowly so his minions are alive for longer and push out more damage.
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On September 18 2014 22:31 Ketara wrote:
All you know is that "nashors felt bad"
The math disagrees with you. And math is better than feelings.
It's 850 gold from Stinger+Codex to Nashors and that gives you 30 AP and 10 ASPD, that's similar in price and stats from what you'd get buying a Blasting Wand, and consolidates an item slot.
Double Dorans > Nashor > Rylai appears to be the build, IMO.
Mathematically, Deathfire deathcap does more damage than that. but it definitely is worse because of how it feels and the timings within the items. a HUGE part of playing champions with their build, isn't math, its how the items and buildups affect their timings and feel to allow them a continuing growing in strength. the nashors upgrade is a stagnant upgrade, the 10% attack speed doesn't affect your damage in your combos it does NOT push you over a break point in your combo so its effectively useless. so you are paying 900 gold for 30 ap and an inventory slot in the early game which is bad. nashors would be okay as a late item, if it wasn't so important to get cap CDR asap so you aren't useless.
That 900 would be better spent on a forbidden idol and 200 gold toward the finished morellos. capping your CDR is much more substantial than the 30 ap from nashors upgrade. especially since it lets you follow up with a second slow off a single soldier. and that extra slow-> stab is going to be more damage than 30 ap and 10% atk speed every single time.
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On September 18 2014 22:40 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 22:31 Ketara wrote:
All you know is that "nashors felt bad"
The math disagrees with you. And math is better than feelings.
It's 850 gold from Stinger+Codex to Nashors and that gives you 30 AP and 10 ASPD, that's similar in price and stats from what you'd get buying a Blasting Wand, and consolidates an item slot.
Double Dorans > Nashor > Rylai appears to be the build, IMO. Mathematically, Deathfire deathcap does more damage than that. but it definitely is worse because of how it feels and the timings within the items. a HUGE part of playing champions with their build, isn't math, its how the items and buildups affect their timings and feel to allow them a continuing growing in strength. the nashors upgrade is a stagnant upgrade, the 10% attack speed doesn't affect your damage in your combos it does NOT push you over a break point in your combo so its effectively useless. so you are paying 900 gold for 30 ap and an inventory slot in the early game which is bad. nashors would be okay as a late item, if it wasn't so important to get cap CDR asap so you aren't useless.
Not really the same, because for price I'd dfg and dcap you could have nashors, rylais, and void staff.
Just get blue buff instead of wasting 500.good on mana regeneration, and wasting blue cdr.
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On September 18 2014 22:53 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 22:40 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 18 2014 22:31 Ketara wrote:
All you know is that "nashors felt bad"
The math disagrees with you. And math is better than feelings.
It's 850 gold from Stinger+Codex to Nashors and that gives you 30 AP and 10 ASPD, that's similar in price and stats from what you'd get buying a Blasting Wand, and consolidates an item slot.
Double Dorans > Nashor > Rylai appears to be the build, IMO. Mathematically, Deathfire deathcap does more damage than that. but it definitely is worse because of how it feels and the timings within the items. a HUGE part of playing champions with their build, isn't math, its how the items and buildups affect their timings and feel to allow them a continuing growing in strength. the nashors upgrade is a stagnant upgrade, the 10% attack speed doesn't affect your damage in your combos it does NOT push you over a break point in your combo so its effectively useless. so you are paying 900 gold for 30 ap and an inventory slot in the early game which is bad. nashors would be okay as a late item, if it wasn't so important to get cap CDR asap so you aren't useless. Not really the same, because for price I'd dfg and dcap you could have nashors, rylais, and void staff. Just get blue buff instead of wasting 500.good on mana regeneration, and wasting blue cdr.
errrr what?? dfg deathcap is 6400 2 dorans rings nashors rylai is 6600. rylais is 2900 and nashors is 2920. void staff is 2295. those three items are MUCH more than dfg deathcap even without the dorans.
and if you rely on blue cdr on azir, you are going to be significantly weaker unless you run 20% buff mastery and your team controls both blues. that last 10% cdr ends up with 40% of your standard combo and 25% of your all in combo. relying on blue buff for that is silly.
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The buff thing just isn't true px. Literally every game I've played everyone donated me blue because I got more stats out of it.
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On September 18 2014 23:08 iCanada wrote:
The buff thing just isn't true px. Literally every game I've played everyone donated me blue because I got more stats out of it.
losing 25-40% of your damage if you dont have blue is not worth the risk. blue isn't up 100% of the time without controlling both blues. having that huge weakness in your timing isn't worth it at all. blue is nice for laning before you can afford the full CDR, but relying on it when you can afford it for azir specifically is bad. Azir is super reliant on hitting his stat break points to add large amounts of damage to his kit. his basic Q auto is pathetic for the amount of mana you spend, so you need the attack speed to get the 2nd auto, and preferably would really want the 40% cdr for the bonus slow and auto at the end. off a single soldier.
I haven't tried the RoA -> rylais with cdr boots and atk speed/cdr runes yet. i think that'll be a better build for fighting more often rather than focusing on objective control. the 400 hp shield would be pretty neat. but not having that attack speed point early would be a bit hard to adjust to.
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On September 18 2014 22:40 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 22:31 Ketara wrote:
All you know is that "nashors felt bad"
The math disagrees with you. And math is better than feelings.
It's 850 gold from Stinger+Codex to Nashors and that gives you 30 AP and 10 ASPD, that's similar in price and stats from what you'd get buying a Blasting Wand, and consolidates an item slot.
Double Dorans > Nashor > Rylai appears to be the build, IMO. Mathematically, Deathfire deathcap does more damage than that.
Oh really?
Lets see, when do you have two items. I'm gonna guess level 11.
2x dring + Nashor + Rylai + amp tome = 7055 gold
2x dring + Deathcap + DFG = 7200 gold
Here are the stat differences in these two builds. 21/9 masteries, ASPD+Armor+CDR+CDR runes.
Nashor+Rylai Azir
HP: 1881
AP: 226
ASPD: 1.28714
CDR: 40%
Sand soldier DPS: 332.33
Hat+DFG Azir
HP: 1469
AP: 371
ASPD: 0.93964
CDR: 30%
Sand soldier DPS: 337.98
And that's at a two item timing. Here's the just Nashors vs. just DFG numbers.
Nashor only sand soldier DPS: 242.23
DFG only sand soldier DPS: 203.15
So if you go Nashor+Rylai you have functionally the same damage at two items, but with 10% more CDR, 400 more HP, a way better build up and attacks that slow.
Stop spouting crap PX.
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150 AP difference for other abilities though...
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so you did all that math to show that yes, in fact what i typed was correct. ty.
On September 18 2014 23:27 Duvon wrote:
150 AP difference for other abilities though...
also not to mention you know, dfg active, and the fact that DPS numbers on soldiers are literally meaningless, because you don't deal constant damage, it happens in intervals and you can only get so many guaranteed hits dependent on cdr and atk speed.
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It's not really correct to compare DPS of nashor's rylai to DFG deathcap anyway. A defensive item is never going to stand up vs a damage item for damage, that should be obvious to everyone. You should be comparing nashor's DC to DFG deathcap, in which case nashor's DC is more DPS except when DFG active is up. With such a huge attack speed difference between the two builds you'll get more AAs off with nashor's too.
I mean you have a point PX, LoL theorycraft is limited and often times with experience you realize that you simply have other concerns than pure damage (e.g. shiv over PD on ADCs, athene's for sustain, even the aforementioned Rylai's to try to get more autos off). I just feel very skeptical when you combine the thought that Nashor's is bad with the thought that Zephyr is an item you want. AFAIK there is no champ where zephyr is a normal (or at least required) part of the build path. Why would Azir, who's not even remotely an AD champ, be the exception?
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Frankly Zephyr is just there to turn the stinger (which DOES give a good power spike, unlike the full nashors), into something useful. as tenacity and movespeed are both very good stats on azir.
if i could get 40% atk speed on a more useful item i'd be more than fine with going that item instead, but stinger is just the best for the role.... i suppose i could run berserker greaves and sacrifice my quints for attack speed quints to get the same amount.
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Guys DFG clearly has no active.
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That is some of the most selective theorycrafting I've seen in awhile.
On September 18 2014 23:28 phyvo wrote:
It's not really correct to compare DPS of nashor's rylai to DFG deathcap anyway. A defensive item is never going to stand up vs a damage item for damage, that should be obvious to everyone. You should be comparing nashor's DC to DFG deathcap, in which case nashor's DC is more DPS except when DFG active is up. With such a huge attack speed difference between the two builds you'll get more AAs off with nashor's too.
I mean you have a point PX, LoL theorycraft is limited and often times with experience you realize that you simply have other concerns than pure damage (e.g. shiv over PD on ADCs, athene's for sustain, even the aforementioned Rylai's to try to get more autos off). I just feel very skeptical when you combine the thought that Nashor's is bad with the thought that Zephyr is an item you want. AFAIK there is no champ where zephyr is a normal (or at least required) part of the build path. Why would Azir, who's not even remotely an AD champ, be the exception?
Well hurricane was in a similiar position when all of a sudden it became a core item on Kayle when no one else buys it. So there is precedent of AS mages being weird.
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By the way, here's your "Zephyr + Morello" build in the same comparison. We'll also throw in a blasting wand.
Zephyr+Morello Azir
HP: 1469
AP: 136
ASPD: 1.35664
CDR: 40%
Sand soldier DPS: 264.81
So, with Zephyr+Morello I get 10% movespeed, Tenacity and grievous wounds on attacks.
With Nashor+Rylais I get almost 30% more damage, 400 more HP and attacks that slow.
If you want to discuss Azir builds, bring something to the table other than "this felt good on the PBE". I'm not saying I'm definitely right, but I am saying that I'm playing him on live servers and researching him, and I don't want to waste time arguing with somebody whose counterargument is "But this feels good."
You think a different build is better? Actually prove it, don't spout crap.
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heh. you didn't even read what i wrote about the items i build did you?
and you don't seem to understand how his damage works if you keep spouting meaningless stats like "dps" of his soldiers. how many hits do you get out of Q with each item, and how much damage does THAT do, DPS means nothing because its not how the damage is applied. Spouting DPS is a silly stat when discussing champions whose damage isn't constant but instead concentrated in brief periods of time. Azir is a lower cooldown mage, not fully burst, but definitely not close to the style of damage distribution of an adc.
i'm fairly certain no one wants you to waste their time arguing either man.
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And yeah I agree with phyvo that if you wanted a fair comparison you'd compare Nashor+Deathcap to DFG+Deathcap, in which case the numbers would be wildly different.
Nashor+Deathcap Azir
HP: 1469
AP: 294
ASPD: 1.28714
CDR: 40%
Sand soldier DPS: 393.60
That's nearly enough by the way to do more damage even accounting for the silly DFG active (which you're totally going to get great use out of because you're gonna fight things inside 750 range and your damage isn't all AOE, amirite?)
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On September 18 2014 23:39 PrinceXizor wrote:
heh. you didn't even read what i wrote about the items i build did you?
and you don't seem to understand how his damage works if you keep spouting meaningless stats like "dps" of his soldiers. how many hits do you get out of Q with each item, and how much damage does THAT do, DPS means nothing because its not how the damage is applied.
i'm fairly certain no one wants you to waste their time arguing either man.
Oh OKAY, DPS means nothing then.
Show me a better metric or shut the fuck up. I'd like to see you actually put something worthwhile into a post.
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Netherlands21351 Posts
On September 18 2014 23:42 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 23:39 PrinceXizor wrote:
heh. you didn't even read what i wrote about the items i build did you?
and you don't seem to understand how his damage works if you keep spouting meaningless stats like "dps" of his soldiers. how many hits do you get out of Q with each item, and how much damage does THAT do, DPS means nothing because its not how the damage is applied.
i'm fairly certain no one wants you to waste their time arguing either man. Oh OKAY, DPS means nothing then. Show me a better metric or shut the fuck up. I'd like to see you actually put something worthwhile into a post.
you forgetting who you are arguing with.
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Heh. I'm done. i tried to explain, he literally just ignores anything so he can find some point to argue against somewhere in one of my posts. like he asks something of me i literally answered in the post he quoted. what am i supposed to do but laugh.
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Netherlands21351 Posts
On September 18 2014 23:44 PrinceXizor wrote:
Heh. I'm done. i tried to explain, he literally just ignores anything so he can find some point to argue against somewhere in one of my posts. like he asks something of me i literally answered in the post he quoted. what am i supposed to do but laugh.
he comes with facts and math and your going "this feels good". Sorry but as usual your the troll here.
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EPT
