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On September 17 2014 22:19 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 22:14 Eppa! wrote:On September 17 2014 21:36 Goragoth wrote:On September 17 2014 21:07 killerdog wrote:On September 17 2014 20:52 Osmoses wrote:On September 17 2014 20:44 killerdog wrote:On September 17 2014 20:29 RagequitBM wrote:
He was also making fun of a taiwanese fan, and saying "Like my name?" showing that he knew it was racist and derogatory From a danish perspective (at least among a lot of people I know here) it would be a joke. like having das_Beer as my name and saying "like my name" to a german guy, only for it to turn out that in some other culture, referencing beer to a german is incredibly racist. This is more akin to Das_Sieg_Heil or Das_ArbeitMachtFrei. I agree the punishment was harsh, but I would have done the same in Riot's position (make an example). The guy may be young, if you wanna call 18 that, but considering the steps Riot had taken leading up to this he is clearly quite dumber than average, and what's the point of having rules if you're just gonna award a slap on the wrist when they're broken. I dunno, if a danish player made an account which had a name which made fun of swedish, and used it to practice for dreamhack, would they really kick him from the tournament? Or some account about how danish sounds like a german eating a potato, and used it to practice for cph games. Those kind of jokes are just sort of accepted in Scandinavia, at least in my experiences. But imo there are plenty of ways they could have punished him. A larger fine, giving SK as a whole a larger fine, a public apology at the event, fine him (with the fine going to some anti-racism campaign,) have him meet with some public anti-racism activists, etc. Or punish him in the more long term, ban him from the next LCS season, or something like that. It just feels like they didn't want to risk any drama overshadowing the event, so they completely kicked him from the entire taiwan portion of the event, rather then actually try and run damage control. Hell they could have just given a seeding advantage, or made him miss one game if they really wanted to punish him in the tourney. And even if they leave him in, and just fine him or whatever, I doubt there'd be actual outrage or anything. Hell it would probably massively increase the interest in the TPA vs SK game :p On the other hand, wtf was SK management and coaches doing, I find it hard to believe nobody else on the team/staff realised what he'd named his account until it was in the papers There is a massive difference between what is acceptable around friends/family or even some random strangers when you are just some random person, and what is acceptable when you are representing your country/region in the spotlight. His name wouldn't cause much of a stir pretty much anywhere when just used in a LAN for playing with friends or whatever. Sure, people would just laugh at it mostly and almost nobody would be offended. When you are in the spotlight though the rules change, that's just how it is. These players are marketing tools for Riot, that's why they get paid, and that's why they get held to a high standard. Choosing an offensive name reflects poorly on Riot, and that's why they reacted like they did. Now I'd place less blame with Svenskeren and more with SK too, since the players are obviously mostly quite immature, but that's why teams have support staff that should be paying attention to this sort of thing and taking care of it before it ever gets to Riot. In Scandinavian countries this would not even be noticed. It is very much a cultural thing and I personally see nothing offensive in the name since its obviously in good faith from svens perspective. I don't think you have any idea what obviously means.
You can be forest gump and understand that having a name based on a stereotype in a non joking way is silly.
On September 17 2014 21:31 Miefer wrote:
So to some people it is not offensive when i call myself as an lcs player in NA NYnig*** or in Polen polishCARthief? because u know one is what nig*** calls themself, becasue thats what i learnt from where i come from/s and the other is a stupid sterotyp. If u feal offended i aplogize, if not, i dont.
Slavery and Genocide in recent history is not ok. Basically anything that has been people abusing people is out of bounds.
Calling swedes raping and pillaging vikings is not offensive because its not recent and its not relevant to today.
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On September 17 2014 22:12 Chemiczny84 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 21:31 Miefer wrote:
So to some people it is not offensive when i call myself as an lcs player in NA NYnig*** or in Polen polishCARthief? because u know one is what nig*** calls themself, becasue thats what i learnt from where i come from/s and the other is a stupid sterotyp. If u feal offended i aplogize, if not, i dont. You know that referencing to Poland by it's german name can be considered offensive? Just to show you how easy it is to make such a mistake. If I saw a "polishCARthief" nick, I'd just laugh, seeing "Polen" really pisses me off. And it would be more like "szczżźćdź", because it's making fun of how they speak, not their race or what they presumably do
I don't consider "nigger" offensive, because that's just the way they were initially called. The word in itself has nothing wrong, it's the use and its perceived intent that irks people (I'd have used causasian as an example, but it's hype to use it ironically to describe a "normal" person so meh). I even find rather pathetic how a black guy saying nigger is normal but anyone else using it and all shit's lost.
ChingChong's used to mock their way of speaking, which may sound innocent to you but its "standard" use is derogatory and someone using it without trying to be offensive is usually more from ignorance regarding that than anything else.
I don't know how it's perceived in your country, but in France for example if you hear someone call Polish, or even just Eastern European people "Polaks", the default interpretation is that he's being despising. Same with tching-tchong regarding Asians in general (if you want to be belittling/racist in France, then by default every Asian/"yellow" is Chinese).
On September 17 2014 22:23 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 22:19 Numy wrote:On September 17 2014 22:14 Eppa! wrote:On September 17 2014 21:36 Goragoth wrote:On September 17 2014 21:07 killerdog wrote:On September 17 2014 20:52 Osmoses wrote:On September 17 2014 20:44 killerdog wrote:On September 17 2014 20:29 RagequitBM wrote:
He was also making fun of a taiwanese fan, and saying "Like my name?" showing that he knew it was racist and derogatory From a danish perspective (at least among a lot of people I know here) it would be a joke. like having das_Beer as my name and saying "like my name" to a german guy, only for it to turn out that in some other culture, referencing beer to a german is incredibly racist. This is more akin to Das_Sieg_Heil or Das_ArbeitMachtFrei. I agree the punishment was harsh, but I would have done the same in Riot's position (make an example). The guy may be young, if you wanna call 18 that, but considering the steps Riot had taken leading up to this he is clearly quite dumber than average, and what's the point of having rules if you're just gonna award a slap on the wrist when they're broken. I dunno, if a danish player made an account which had a name which made fun of swedish, and used it to practice for dreamhack, would they really kick him from the tournament? Or some account about how danish sounds like a german eating a potato, and used it to practice for cph games. Those kind of jokes are just sort of accepted in Scandinavia, at least in my experiences. But imo there are plenty of ways they could have punished him. A larger fine, giving SK as a whole a larger fine, a public apology at the event, fine him (with the fine going to some anti-racism campaign,) have him meet with some public anti-racism activists, etc. Or punish him in the more long term, ban him from the next LCS season, or something like that. It just feels like they didn't want to risk any drama overshadowing the event, so they completely kicked him from the entire taiwan portion of the event, rather then actually try and run damage control. Hell they could have just given a seeding advantage, or made him miss one game if they really wanted to punish him in the tourney. And even if they leave him in, and just fine him or whatever, I doubt there'd be actual outrage or anything. Hell it would probably massively increase the interest in the TPA vs SK game :p On the other hand, wtf was SK management and coaches doing, I find it hard to believe nobody else on the team/staff realised what he'd named his account until it was in the papers There is a massive difference between what is acceptable around friends/family or even some random strangers when you are just some random person, and what is acceptable when you are representing your country/region in the spotlight. His name wouldn't cause much of a stir pretty much anywhere when just used in a LAN for playing with friends or whatever. Sure, people would just laugh at it mostly and almost nobody would be offended. When you are in the spotlight though the rules change, that's just how it is. These players are marketing tools for Riot, that's why they get paid, and that's why they get held to a high standard. Choosing an offensive name reflects poorly on Riot, and that's why they reacted like they did. Now I'd place less blame with Svenskeren and more with SK too, since the players are obviously mostly quite immature, but that's why teams have support staff that should be paying attention to this sort of thing and taking care of it before it ever gets to Riot. In Scandinavian countries this would not even be noticed. It is very much a cultural thing and I personally see nothing offensive in the name since its obviously in good faith from svens perspective. I don't think you have any idea what obviously means. It means that there is nobody on this forum who genuinely thinks that Svenskeren's primary purpose was to offend the Taiwanese.
Just because you don't have ill-intent doesn't mean your thoughts aren't. I mean, it's like calling someone a dumbass without intent to offend him: you're still belittling him in your view by thinking that.
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On September 17 2014 22:24 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 22:19 Numy wrote:On September 17 2014 22:14 Eppa! wrote:On September 17 2014 21:36 Goragoth wrote:On September 17 2014 21:07 killerdog wrote:On September 17 2014 20:52 Osmoses wrote:On September 17 2014 20:44 killerdog wrote:On September 17 2014 20:29 RagequitBM wrote:
He was also making fun of a taiwanese fan, and saying "Like my name?" showing that he knew it was racist and derogatory From a danish perspective (at least among a lot of people I know here) it would be a joke. like having das_Beer as my name and saying "like my name" to a german guy, only for it to turn out that in some other culture, referencing beer to a german is incredibly racist. This is more akin to Das_Sieg_Heil or Das_ArbeitMachtFrei. I agree the punishment was harsh, but I would have done the same in Riot's position (make an example). The guy may be young, if you wanna call 18 that, but considering the steps Riot had taken leading up to this he is clearly quite dumber than average, and what's the point of having rules if you're just gonna award a slap on the wrist when they're broken. I dunno, if a danish player made an account which had a name which made fun of swedish, and used it to practice for dreamhack, would they really kick him from the tournament? Or some account about how danish sounds like a german eating a potato, and used it to practice for cph games. Those kind of jokes are just sort of accepted in Scandinavia, at least in my experiences. But imo there are plenty of ways they could have punished him. A larger fine, giving SK as a whole a larger fine, a public apology at the event, fine him (with the fine going to some anti-racism campaign,) have him meet with some public anti-racism activists, etc. Or punish him in the more long term, ban him from the next LCS season, or something like that. It just feels like they didn't want to risk any drama overshadowing the event, so they completely kicked him from the entire taiwan portion of the event, rather then actually try and run damage control. Hell they could have just given a seeding advantage, or made him miss one game if they really wanted to punish him in the tourney. And even if they leave him in, and just fine him or whatever, I doubt there'd be actual outrage or anything. Hell it would probably massively increase the interest in the TPA vs SK game :p On the other hand, wtf was SK management and coaches doing, I find it hard to believe nobody else on the team/staff realised what he'd named his account until it was in the papers There is a massive difference between what is acceptable around friends/family or even some random strangers when you are just some random person, and what is acceptable when you are representing your country/region in the spotlight. His name wouldn't cause much of a stir pretty much anywhere when just used in a LAN for playing with friends or whatever. Sure, people would just laugh at it mostly and almost nobody would be offended. When you are in the spotlight though the rules change, that's just how it is. These players are marketing tools for Riot, that's why they get paid, and that's why they get held to a high standard. Choosing an offensive name reflects poorly on Riot, and that's why they reacted like they did. Now I'd place less blame with Svenskeren and more with SK too, since the players are obviously mostly quite immature, but that's why teams have support staff that should be paying attention to this sort of thing and taking care of it before it ever gets to Riot. In Scandinavian countries this would not even be noticed. It is very much a cultural thing and I personally see nothing offensive in the name since its obviously in good faith from svens perspective. I don't think you have any idea what obviously means. You can be forest gump and understand that having a name based on a stereotype in a non joking way is silly.
Except he's not forest gump, he's not some random solo q player. He's a fucking professional gamer employed by Riot in the public image. Actively making fun of a stereotype is not ok for that kind of person. He's not some comedian doing a private gig.
Maybe it's because I'm not European or Scandinavian that I find this conduct pathetic. He's a little kid who honestly shouldn't be in the position to be punished in the first place. It's as if he lacks the tiniest bit of common sense and yet people actually defend him. It baffles me.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Just because I don't have ill-intent doesn't mean my thoughts aren't what?
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Svenskeren's penalty may or may not be too much, but once his actions went from forum to media, it became impossible for Riot to not take action. Riot not acting on this situation would make them look REALLY bad.
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On September 17 2014 22:14 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 21:36 Goragoth wrote:On September 17 2014 21:07 killerdog wrote:On September 17 2014 20:52 Osmoses wrote:On September 17 2014 20:44 killerdog wrote:On September 17 2014 20:29 RagequitBM wrote:
He was also making fun of a taiwanese fan, and saying "Like my name?" showing that he knew it was racist and derogatory From a danish perspective (at least among a lot of people I know here) it would be a joke. like having das_Beer as my name and saying "like my name" to a german guy, only for it to turn out that in some other culture, referencing beer to a german is incredibly racist. This is more akin to Das_Sieg_Heil or Das_ArbeitMachtFrei. I agree the punishment was harsh, but I would have done the same in Riot's position (make an example). The guy may be young, if you wanna call 18 that, but considering the steps Riot had taken leading up to this he is clearly quite dumber than average, and what's the point of having rules if you're just gonna award a slap on the wrist when they're broken. I dunno, if a danish player made an account which had a name which made fun of swedish, and used it to practice for dreamhack, would they really kick him from the tournament? Or some account about how danish sounds like a german eating a potato, and used it to practice for cph games. Those kind of jokes are just sort of accepted in Scandinavia, at least in my experiences. But imo there are plenty of ways they could have punished him. A larger fine, giving SK as a whole a larger fine, a public apology at the event, fine him (with the fine going to some anti-racism campaign,) have him meet with some public anti-racism activists, etc. Or punish him in the more long term, ban him from the next LCS season, or something like that. It just feels like they didn't want to risk any drama overshadowing the event, so they completely kicked him from the entire taiwan portion of the event, rather then actually try and run damage control. Hell they could have just given a seeding advantage, or made him miss one game if they really wanted to punish him in the tourney. And even if they leave him in, and just fine him or whatever, I doubt there'd be actual outrage or anything. Hell it would probably massively increase the interest in the TPA vs SK game :p On the other hand, wtf was SK management and coaches doing, I find it hard to believe nobody else on the team/staff realised what he'd named his account until it was in the papers There is a massive difference between what is acceptable around friends/family or even some random strangers when you are just some random person, and what is acceptable when you are representing your country/region in the spotlight. His name wouldn't cause much of a stir pretty much anywhere when just used in a LAN for playing with friends or whatever. Sure, people would just laugh at it mostly and almost nobody would be offended. When you are in the spotlight though the rules change, that's just how it is. These players are marketing tools for Riot, that's why they get paid, and that's why they get held to a high standard. Choosing an offensive name reflects poorly on Riot, and that's why they reacted like they did. Now I'd place less blame with Svenskeren and more with SK too, since the players are obviously mostly quite immature, but that's why teams have support staff that should be paying attention to this sort of thing and taking care of it before it ever gets to Riot. In Scandinavian countries this would not even be noticed. It is very much a cultural thing and I personally see nothing offensive in the name since its obviously in good faith from svens perspective.
We are both scandinavian, and I can easily see how this is offensive to asians in general. I'm curious what the difference is between us.
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On September 17 2014 22:29 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 22:24 Eppa! wrote:On September 17 2014 22:19 Numy wrote:On September 17 2014 22:14 Eppa! wrote:On September 17 2014 21:36 Goragoth wrote:On September 17 2014 21:07 killerdog wrote:On September 17 2014 20:52 Osmoses wrote:On September 17 2014 20:44 killerdog wrote:On September 17 2014 20:29 RagequitBM wrote:
He was also making fun of a taiwanese fan, and saying "Like my name?" showing that he knew it was racist and derogatory From a danish perspective (at least among a lot of people I know here) it would be a joke. like having das_Beer as my name and saying "like my name" to a german guy, only for it to turn out that in some other culture, referencing beer to a german is incredibly racist. This is more akin to Das_Sieg_Heil or Das_ArbeitMachtFrei. I agree the punishment was harsh, but I would have done the same in Riot's position (make an example). The guy may be young, if you wanna call 18 that, but considering the steps Riot had taken leading up to this he is clearly quite dumber than average, and what's the point of having rules if you're just gonna award a slap on the wrist when they're broken. I dunno, if a danish player made an account which had a name which made fun of swedish, and used it to practice for dreamhack, would they really kick him from the tournament? Or some account about how danish sounds like a german eating a potato, and used it to practice for cph games. Those kind of jokes are just sort of accepted in Scandinavia, at least in my experiences. But imo there are plenty of ways they could have punished him. A larger fine, giving SK as a whole a larger fine, a public apology at the event, fine him (with the fine going to some anti-racism campaign,) have him meet with some public anti-racism activists, etc. Or punish him in the more long term, ban him from the next LCS season, or something like that. It just feels like they didn't want to risk any drama overshadowing the event, so they completely kicked him from the entire taiwan portion of the event, rather then actually try and run damage control. Hell they could have just given a seeding advantage, or made him miss one game if they really wanted to punish him in the tourney. And even if they leave him in, and just fine him or whatever, I doubt there'd be actual outrage or anything. Hell it would probably massively increase the interest in the TPA vs SK game :p On the other hand, wtf was SK management and coaches doing, I find it hard to believe nobody else on the team/staff realised what he'd named his account until it was in the papers There is a massive difference between what is acceptable around friends/family or even some random strangers when you are just some random person, and what is acceptable when you are representing your country/region in the spotlight. His name wouldn't cause much of a stir pretty much anywhere when just used in a LAN for playing with friends or whatever. Sure, people would just laugh at it mostly and almost nobody would be offended. When you are in the spotlight though the rules change, that's just how it is. These players are marketing tools for Riot, that's why they get paid, and that's why they get held to a high standard. Choosing an offensive name reflects poorly on Riot, and that's why they reacted like they did. Now I'd place less blame with Svenskeren and more with SK too, since the players are obviously mostly quite immature, but that's why teams have support staff that should be paying attention to this sort of thing and taking care of it before it ever gets to Riot. In Scandinavian countries this would not even be noticed. It is very much a cultural thing and I personally see nothing offensive in the name since its obviously in good faith from svens perspective. I don't think you have any idea what obviously means. You can be forest gump and understand that having a name based on a stereotype in a non joking way is silly. Except he's not forest gump, he's not some random solo q player. He's a fucking professional gamer employed by Riot in the public image. Actively making fun of a stereotype is not ok for that kind of person. He's not some comedian doing a private gig.
I think eppa is more so talking about people's perception about the 'joke' are overreacting, and less so Rito's ruling. Obviously with such a public response, it was the right move for Rito to take some form of action against Sven.
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Well look at the paternalist attitude in colonial times: it was contemptuous and belittling, but their intent wasn't so. They sincerely believed there to be several races and the others to be uneducated savages inferior to them.
Just because they didn't mean to be scornful them by perceiving them that way doesn't make it so that their view wasn't biggotry.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On September 17 2014 22:36 Alaric wrote:
Well look at the paternalist attitude in colonial times: it was contemptuous and belittling, but their intent wasn't so. They sincerely believed there to be several races and the others to be uneducated savages inferior to them.
Just because they didn't mean to be scornful them by perceiving them that way doesn't make it so that their view wasn't biggotry.
and that is responding to my original post how exactly?
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On September 17 2014 22:36 Alaric wrote:
Well look at the paternalist attitude in colonial times: it was contemptuous and belittling, but their intent wasn't so. They sincerely believed there to be several races and the others to be uneducated savages inferior to them.
Just because they didn't mean to be scornful them by perceiving them that way doesn't make it so that their view wasn't biggotry.
Difference is that's the actual definition of racism.
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
Sven's joke is at worst culturally insensitive, not racist
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Just because Svenskeren didn't expect it to offend that much, him sincerely thinking it describes them and willingly using it and making fun of a Taiwanese using his bad knowledge of English doesn't make him any less of a dumbass.
I took the colonialist example because it was the easiest in mind regarding the "they didn't think they were doing bad" part, not because it was racism, geez.
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If Riot had not had the PR thing beforehand and he had not been caught making fun of it towards a fan he might have gotten away with it but considering the entire situation there really is no defending him.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
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You seem perplexed by the idea that a 18-yo who proved how dumb he can be already could hold that thought.
You haven't seen all that many 18-yo, even not as dumb.
v if I think you're retarded and as such don't believe it's offensive but mere fact when I call you so, it's not racism. I already said I'm referring to that, not to the belief of race superiority, wtf.
I called Svenskeren a dumb biggot, not a racist.
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On September 17 2014 22:42 Alaric wrote:
Just because Svenskeren didn't expect it to offend that much, him sincerely thinking it describes them and willingly using it and making fun of a Taiwanese using his bad knowledge of English doesn't make him any less of a dumbass.
I took the colonialist example because it was the easiest in mind regarding the "they didn't think they were doing bad" part, not because it was racism, geez.
The actual belief is racist, regardless of intent or policies that followed from this belief. That's why your example was shit.
Tbh it's about as bad as an American tourist doing their rendition of a british accent while in the UK. It' fucking stupid, inaccurate most of the time, and unfunny. But no one in fucking UK is gunna go around complaining about racism.
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He was definitely doing it on purpose. He was taunting people about his name lol.
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Sven is a dick. Earth is round. Any news ?
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On September 17 2014 21:44 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 21:36 Celial wrote:On September 17 2014 18:21 GolemMadness wrote:On September 17 2014 18:11 Eppa! wrote:
Fuck it I just miss BW/SC2 scene where people had personality. Pros are no longer people they are simply human bots that play games.
I would say that people are overly sensitive but I now think people are too unforgiving. Look at football where it is a couple of matches for physically and intentionally hurting someone. Yeah, fucking League of Legends. I'm sick of watching these pros stream all day, talk to us, post on social media, do videos with sponsors and go on shows like SI. If they can't go into another country to represent their nation for world's, make a racially offensive name and then ask its citizens how they like it, then I am FUCKING DONE. Meh, wasn't really needed in BW. You could literally go on iCCup and just whisper whoever the fuck you wanted - 99% of the time they would respond and talk to you. Even really serious and in-depth. Hell you could just go into op ToT) and get a game with almost anyone. (Foreigner) pros were really touchable in BW. Gan taught me 2 hatch muta ZvT. I smoked weed with infernal, kara and ret. Ret stood next to me at a LAN and explained a game for the entire ~20m it lasted. DaZe bm'd me with mass ebay float on Blue Storm (me P). Goody discussed with me the finer points of Arbiter vs Carrier lategame PvT. I've spent hundreds of hours playing KotH with the "cool boys" - basically ToT and ESC mixers. I eventually ended up managing mTws BW team because of all the people I knew. I still talk to many "pros" from back then on a regular basis. Sen, infernal, kara mainly. I cant just message someone on League and talk to him. (or SC2, really). I as a fan need those new outlets - streams, shows, social media - if I want to atleast passively interact with those guys. And its a huge factor why I don't enjoy LoL or SC2 nearly as much as I did BW. I'm just not as personally invested in the players, because the personal connection is missing. If you played since beta and 1800 Season 1 you could be just as close to pros – like a certain other distinguished individual in the TeamLiquid League of Legends community.
Yeah but I was horrible (D+/C- depending on the day^^) and didn't get into the scene until 2005. Everyone was just so excited to share themselves with anyone, really. Well, of course not anyone - Dissy and JF were really not approachable for people they didnt know. Comes with being best in the (western) world, I guess. Only talked with them when fernal was there or in CWs.
Anyway. 5HIT I saw the light.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/S4NPb2d.jpg) I never play ADC, I am beyond horrible. Am currently in my Gold 5 promos and decided to hop into team builder to brush up my ADC since that is really holding me back. How is playing MF so fucking easy? Like, "I'm going to hit you for 200-500 damage in your fucking face every 4 seconds - if you don't like that please zone yourself from the XP." And at the same time I'm just derping around far from danger of retaliation... Also what's up with the holy fucking burst on auto Q auto? Dueled a fed Rengar (granted, he was at half health) and I was just able to global him (had IE though, got 1 crit).
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That French Rengar sure sounds like a swell fellow.
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EPT
