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On September 13 2014 00:17 Frolossus wrote:
a lot of riot's reworks ARE actually failures
looking at katarina, gangplank, tyrndamere, heimerdinger
i think it's more important that they keep the original feel of the characters rather than trying to fit everything into a particular mold of 'maybe useful one day in lcs' or 'easily accessible or understood by new players'
Gragas and Nidalee reworks continue to be failures. The reasons for those reworks basically boiled down to that they lacked "counterplay" however you defined that term. However, when you look at post-rework Nidalee and Gragas, they are even harder to counterplay. You can't even dodge spears, gank early, or push into Nidalee now to "counterplay" her the counterplay is to be able to out-brute-force her and CC the shit out of her.
Old Gragas was super strong/op, but post nerf-pre rework Gragas was much more balanced than when he had the free W and super oppressive pushing(for toplane, against other melee champs). Now after the nerfs is fairly pedestrian. Its because the reworked Q did provide counterplay, but that counterplay is stupid its basically "don't stand on his ticking timebomb". Its the same reason the people only use Janna tornado for disengage, because charging skillshots (when your opponents know which way you are aiming, Varus isn't bad) is just a stupid mechanic.
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Wait. Are you saying the current Nidalee has less counterplay than the old AP Nidalee?
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I think the Gragas rework was less about "lacking counterplay" and more about "lacking identity".
He was supposed to be a fat melee bruiser but instead was being played as a burst mage, basically.
Nidalee was changed to be sure, she was just changed from something toxic into a different kind of toxic.
I have something against split pushers who thrive in environments where they get no assistance from their team, can 1v1 anybody, and also don't help their team. It frustrates their teammates because if you're not coordinated it makes it feel like the split pusher isn't playing the same game as you. It frustrates the enemy team because it's so hard to deal with.
The good split push designs IMO are like Shen and Gangplank, who can split push but aren't unstoppable 1v1, and yet can assist their team with global ults. Stuff like Tryndamere, Nidalee, Teemo etc is just toxic.
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Riot just needs to remove the attack speed on her E and she will most likely be fine.
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Being a long ranged burst mage IS an identity. and he was pretty solid in that role. saying "he's supposed to be" is kind of a moot point. because he was used, as something that players played around and used well. riot said thats not what i wanted for him and changed him. they've done this with lulu and soraka a few times, and khazix as well and are looking to do it to khaz a 2nd time. riot doesn't like people doing things they don't directly design. player agency isn't as important to them unless they are following the rails by choice. they had a whole series of balance patches so that "clear use" was stressed. they want everyone to know the best use cases for everything. and simultaneously talk about "meaningful choices" which are pretty at odds. the choice isn't meaningful if its "clear use" or "sub optimal use" only if its between two equally valid choices. they've reworked items so much there are set builds for almost all champs in a role too. you find the most variety in top lane and support lane.
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I mean, I don't want to get in an argument about whether or not the old Gragas was cool or whatever.
I was just saying that I think the rework was less about balance and more about identity. Whether or not you agree with the change, that's what the Riot thought process was.
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I wouldn't call Katarina rework a failure. After they buffed her ult to 2.5s, she basically became old Kat except way better
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On September 13 2014 00:55 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2014 00:36 ghrur wrote:On September 13 2014 00:15 Sufficiency wrote:
Hai got to challenger on KR. 70% win rate.
So much for Korean soloQ. What? Why would that be a knock against Korean SoloQ? I'd say props to Hai for practicing so hard.  Many people claim Korean soloQ are super challenging and super tryhard. But I honestly did not sense any difficulties for Hai to hit challenger. I doubt it is vastly more difficult than NA.
Id say Hai is atm the only person who can really answer that question :p
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On September 13 2014 01:27 MattBarry wrote:
I wouldn't call Katarina rework a failure. After they buffed her ult to 2.5s, she basically became old Kat except way better
Wouldn't that mean a "rework" was a failure? If she's just like before, then they probably could have just buffed something in her old kit to make her better.
I can't even remember old Kat anyways.
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kat is picked and banned a lot in kr soloQ atm i wouldnt be surprised if she gets nerfed in near future
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Kat did get nerfed with DFG. She was practically the only one who got affected by the nerf.
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On September 13 2014 01:27 MattBarry wrote:
I wouldn't call Katarina rework a failure. After they buffed her ult to 2.5s, she basically became old Kat except way better
they reworked her because
-her laning phase was too strong
-she couldn't farm
-her team fights were 'binary'
after the rework
-her laning phase is garbage
-she can farm
-her team fights are more binary than they ever were in the past
-less utility
-fewer gameplay options
they basically streamlined her mechanics and removed most of the depth in her kit
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Did you just call her laning phase strong before the rework?????
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On September 13 2014 01:50 Sufficiency wrote:
Did you just call her laning phase strong before the rework?????
She could stay within 10cs and when she hit 6 she became a fucking monster.
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On September 13 2014 01:59 Sufficiency wrote:
That's strong?
she had the best harass spell in the game
there wasn't a single lane at the time that she couldn't win w/ pure attrition by spamming 6 bounce KI Q
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Hey guys.
Remember tank top lane Katarina?
Yeah. That was post-rework. So before you say she's garbage, remember she was broken right after. x) Also what utility did old Kat have? Grievous wounds on WQ? She has it on ult, so if it's about applying it to the enemy team it's basically the same (she doesn't have enough range on Q to apply it in sieges without risk anyway).
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On September 13 2014 02:05 Alaric wrote:
Hey guys.
Remember tank top lane Katarina?
Yeah. That was post-rework. So before you say she's garbage, remember she was broken right after. x) Also what utility did old Kat have? Grievous wounds on WQ? She has it on ult, so if it's about applying it to the enemy team it's basically the same (she doesn't have enough range on Q to apply it in sieges without risk anyway).
tank kat was better pre-rework actually
when her ult actually had base damage.
the reason it surfaced again after the rework was cause regular mid kat was so garbage for a while.
anyways the point being that after the rework, kat and many other champions ended up off worse mechanically than the were, but riot changed too much too quickly.
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Australia18228 Posts
On September 13 2014 01:41 krndandaman wrote:
I think KR soloQ is more suited towards people who play lane safely and win through minor advantages/scaling. Guys like Froggen, Hai, etc. would like it I think. Someone like Bjergsen imo would prefer NA where snowballing the lane pretty much guarantees you the win and is quite easy to snowball in the first place.
I don't think so. Hai's been averaging 6.2 deaths a game.
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EPT
