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On September 12 2014 13:06 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Im pretty confident that orignal incarnation of new Viktor was not a nerf.
Only if you were playing Viktor for level 18, 6 item power it wasn't. But viktor relied on an early mid game power spike with Death Augment. Not only is he losing the raw power of the death augment (unless he can hit twice) he is losing AP on the upgrade. This is key to Viktor because his lack of mobility/methods to deal with enemy mobility make him very reliant on mid game team fights and the power spike he gets to turn those in his favor.
He loses damage early on his Q (due the damage reduction, AP reduction in his augments, and change to turn his auto damage to magic, and the rank 1 CDR nerf).
He loses base damage and scaling on his ult DOT until rank 3 (to combine with the reduction in AP due to the death augment change)
His augment utility is OK, but not too great. His damage is lower until level 13.
The auto attack animation change is great though, that will be a big help.
But functionally New Viktor will be stronger with non-augment upgrades until the very end of the game. And he has to get there first, which he doesn't really have a way of doing.
On September 12 2014 14:23 cLutZ wrote:
Gragas and Nidalee, on the other hand, had power removed from signature skillshots and put onto short range and targeted abilities. I don't know why they thought they needed another generic AP bruiser and another infinite splitpusher (this time with lane bully potential!) when the old niches of Melee-Burst-Utility Mage and Mobility-Poke-Bad Waveclear are now sitting basically unfilled.
Well, not sure how you can make a melee burst and utility mage without them being OP. (Unless you count Fizz). And X-Y-Bad Waveclear doesn't exist because bad waveclear prevents you from being a effective in the areas where mobility and poke are important.
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I'm not a Viktor player but getting the W range upgrade base seems nice, but that was the end of what sounded cool about the rework for me, when I have tried to play him the range on that shit was so annoying.
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On September 12 2014 14:42 Slusher wrote:
I'm not a Viktor player but getting the W range upgrade base seems nice, but that was the end of what sounded cool about the rework for me
The biggest things are the auto attack animation change (Viktor's current auto attack is really amazingly bad, like original ryze bad). Old Viktor had this auto attack which played the audio cue for the projectile before the projectile was created, additionally the visual cue for the projectile being created happened before the projectile was created. All of that was cut out and the front swing animation time was cut in half.
Next biggest thing is laser behavior if laser behavior got in. Viktor had a big problem with using his laser while moving because while it is supposed to be something you can move and cast at the same time, if you miss click or move too far while casting you will move to the location needed to cast the laser instead of just casting it. Fixing that would fix a lot of viktor's play functionality issues. Though the utility of this will be reduced now that the laser's damage is so much less than it used to be.
Then its probably the ult burst range increase/dot range decrease/speed changes and the W range increase. Which one will be more impactful i don't know
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On September 12 2014 13:49 Sufficiency wrote:
Guys remember they reworked Gragas? Huge nerf.
Remember when they reworked Kassadin? Huge nerf.
Remember when they reworked Xerath? Huge nerf.
Remember when they reworked Nidalee? Huge nerf.
to be fair, Cassiopeia on live is a huge nerf if only because her E is bugged.
and i dont see how any one can think the Viktor rework is a nerf unless they slash the numbers hard.
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On September 12 2014 14:38 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 14:23 cLutZ wrote:
Gragas and Nidalee, on the other hand, had power removed from signature skillshots and put onto short range and targeted abilities. I don't know why they thought they needed another generic AP bruiser and another infinite splitpusher (this time with lane bully potential!) when the old niches of Melee-Burst-Utility Mage and Mobility-Poke-Bad Waveclear are now sitting basically unfilled. Well, not sure how you can make a melee burst and utility mage without them being OP. (Unless you count Fizz). And X-Y-Bad Waveclear doesn't exist because bad waveclear prevents you from being a effective in the areas where mobility and poke are important.
It is possible that the old Gragas and Diana models are impossible to make work, however the old Nidalee model worked decently because good teams could mitigate her strengths by pushing against the nidalee, she was strong when pushing and retreating but weak when being pushed against or other situations where she couldnt retreat. The Nidalee problem was a gamewide problem at the time of there being almost no hard engage champions that were viable.
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On September 12 2014 14:56 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 14:38 Goumindong wrote:On September 12 2014 14:23 cLutZ wrote:
Gragas and Nidalee, on the other hand, had power removed from signature skillshots and put onto short range and targeted abilities. I don't know why they thought they needed another generic AP bruiser and another infinite splitpusher (this time with lane bully potential!) when the old niches of Melee-Burst-Utility Mage and Mobility-Poke-Bad Waveclear are now sitting basically unfilled. Well, not sure how you can make a melee burst and utility mage without them being OP. (Unless you count Fizz). And X-Y-Bad Waveclear doesn't exist because bad waveclear prevents you from being a effective in the areas where mobility and poke are important. It is possible that the old Gragas and Diana models are impossible to make work, however the old Nidalee model worked decently because good teams could mitigate her strengths by pushing against the nidalee, she was strong when pushing and retreating but weak when being pushed against or other situations where she couldnt retreat. The Nidalee problem was a gamewide problem at the time of there being almost no hard engage champions that were viable.
No. Hard engage champions weren't/aren't viable because disengage and kite is/was so strong. And the "old"* nidalee was absolutely the best at that in a way that both wasn't fun to play against and wasn't fun to watch.
*I say "old" because the first nidalee gameplay was very similar to the current nidalee gameplay, which was nerfed in favor of upping the ratio on spears and lowering the mana costs.
That being said the problem is probably just too much mana. Chalice, Morello, and constant reductions to mana costs mean that champions with lots of poke and siege don't pay penalties for missing their poke and siege.
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On September 12 2014 12:21 FinestHour wrote:
why is full ad recommended for kayle in desert mode wtf actually wow this is hilarious ROFL
On volibear they recommend you start by buying giants belt and boots for 1325 gold when you only have 1300.
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On September 12 2014 15:13 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 12:21 FinestHour wrote:
why is full ad recommended for kayle in desert mode wtf actually wow this is hilarious ROFL On volibear they recommend you start by buying giants belt and boots for 1325 gold when you only have 1300.
because you gain 5 gold every half second or so, you can actually click to teleport somewhere, and then shop the boots before you actually teleport.
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On September 12 2014 15:39 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 15:13 iCanada wrote:On September 12 2014 12:21 FinestHour wrote:
why is full ad recommended for kayle in desert mode wtf actually wow this is hilarious ROFL On volibear they recommend you start by buying giants belt and boots for 1325 gold when you only have 1300. because you gain 5 gold every half second or so, you can actually click to teleport somewhere, and then shop the boots before you actually teleport.
But then doesn't that kind of bone you for your first objective fight? I guess.a couple seconds not a huge deal, but you definitely lose posture on your setting objectives.
I'm other news, Viktor's new E augment is crap. You can't one shot a wave with it because the explosion totally misses the melee creeps.
Zzz...
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On September 12 2014 08:56 Torte de Lini wrote:
Hm. Ok.
I lost top vs. Jax (lost the tower and my jungler chased too far for a kill) and so now I'm 37 minutes with 438 siphoned damage bonus.
But I don't like Snoopeh's item build, it feels really tanky but no way to keep foes in place.
That's not a build problem its a Nasus problem, that's his kit weak point.
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On September 12 2014 15:46 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 15:39 ItsFunToLose wrote:On September 12 2014 15:13 iCanada wrote:On September 12 2014 12:21 FinestHour wrote:
why is full ad recommended for kayle in desert mode wtf actually wow this is hilarious ROFL On volibear they recommend you start by buying giants belt and boots for 1325 gold when you only have 1300. because you gain 5 gold every half second or so, you can actually click to teleport somewhere, and then shop the boots before you actually teleport. But then doesn't that kind of bone you for your first objective fight? I guess.a couple seconds not a huge deal, but you definitely lose posture on your setting objectives. I'm other news, Viktor's new E augment is crap. You can't one shot a wave with it because the explosion totally misses the melee creeps. Zzz...
no you literally lose zero time. you trinket teleport, and in the time it takes for it to go off, you earn 25 gold.
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On September 12 2014 15:46 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 15:39 ItsFunToLose wrote:On September 12 2014 15:13 iCanada wrote:On September 12 2014 12:21 FinestHour wrote:
why is full ad recommended for kayle in desert mode wtf actually wow this is hilarious ROFL On volibear they recommend you start by buying giants belt and boots for 1325 gold when you only have 1300. because you gain 5 gold every half second or so, you can actually click to teleport somewhere, and then shop the boots before you actually teleport. But then doesn't that kind of bone you for your first objective fight? I guess.a couple seconds not a huge deal, but you definitely lose posture on your setting objectives. I'm other news, Viktor's new E augment is crap. You can't one shot a wave with it because the explosion totally misses the melee creeps. Zzz...
Nah, if you gain the gold right when you can start a tp then you shouldn't lose any time since you probably gain the gold faster than your tp finishes.
Is there a key press for the teleport on ascension?
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On September 12 2014 15:53 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 15:46 iCanada wrote:On September 12 2014 15:39 ItsFunToLose wrote:On September 12 2014 15:13 iCanada wrote:On September 12 2014 12:21 FinestHour wrote:
why is full ad recommended for kayle in desert mode wtf actually wow this is hilarious ROFL On volibear they recommend you start by buying giants belt and boots for 1325 gold when you only have 1300. because you gain 5 gold every half second or so, you can actually click to teleport somewhere, and then shop the boots before you actually teleport. But then doesn't that kind of bone you for your first objective fight? I guess.a couple seconds not a huge deal, but you definitely lose posture on your setting objectives. I'm other news, Viktor's new E augment is crap. You can't one shot a wave with it because the explosion totally misses the melee creeps. Zzz... Nah, if you gain the gold right when you can start a tp then you shouldn't lose any time since you probably gain the gold faster than your tp finishes. Is there a key press for the teleport on ascension?
trinket hotkey, or just right click the minimap
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On September 12 2014 13:49 Sufficiency wrote:
Guys remember they reworked Gragas? Huge nerf.
Remember when they reworked Kassadin? Huge nerf.
Remember when they reworked Xerath? Huge nerf.
Remember when they reworked Nidalee? Huge nerf.
Considering the drop off in pick/bans for 3 of those, 3 of them were huge nerfs.
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also who thought the kassasdin changes were a nerf?
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On September 12 2014 16:08 Goumindong wrote:
also who thought the kassasdin changes were a nerf?
Still a nerf strictly talking about ban rate.
Iirc his q got a major buff after initial rework before seeing success in competitive as well.
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On September 12 2014 15:10 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 14:56 cLutZ wrote:On September 12 2014 14:38 Goumindong wrote:On September 12 2014 14:23 cLutZ wrote:
Gragas and Nidalee, on the other hand, had power removed from signature skillshots and put onto short range and targeted abilities. I don't know why they thought they needed another generic AP bruiser and another infinite splitpusher (this time with lane bully potential!) when the old niches of Melee-Burst-Utility Mage and Mobility-Poke-Bad Waveclear are now sitting basically unfilled. Well, not sure how you can make a melee burst and utility mage without them being OP. (Unless you count Fizz). And X-Y-Bad Waveclear doesn't exist because bad waveclear prevents you from being a effective in the areas where mobility and poke are important. It is possible that the old Gragas and Diana models are impossible to make work, however the old Nidalee model worked decently because good teams could mitigate her strengths by pushing against the nidalee, she was strong when pushing and retreating but weak when being pushed against or other situations where she couldnt retreat. The Nidalee problem was a gamewide problem at the time of there being almost no hard engage champions that were viable. No. Hard engage champions weren't/aren't viable because disengage and kite is/was so strong. And the "old"* nidalee was absolutely the best at that in a way that both wasn't fun to play against and wasn't fun to watch. *I say "old" because the first nidalee gameplay was very similar to the current nidalee gameplay, which was nerfed in favor of upping the ratio on spears and lowering the mana costs. That being said the problem is probably just too much mana. Chalice, Morello, and constant reductions to mana costs mean that champions with lots of poke and siege don't pay penalties for missing their poke and siege.
I dont know, I think the old Nidalee would be fine with the modern Maokai and Alistar in the game (if they werent banned always) and maybe 2 more hard engage champions like ZAC, Malph, Vi, Jarvan, Amumu etc being Tier 2 like Vayne or Fizz are now.
When she was annoying people to no end its was like Lee vs. Elise Jungle (Khazix and Eve as well sometimes) and toplane was Renekton/Trundle/Shyvana/Mundo. Only Shyvana really can engage, and she needs a Lulu/Ori to bring CC so the team can follow up.
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On September 12 2014 13:59 Slusher wrote:I find the most interesting thing about the heros mentioned in the earlier post is that literally all 4 of them saw play in competitive as their old version either after the rework was on live or a week before (Xerath) thats a design philosophy I just can't get on board with (reworking being so heavily favored over balance changes) even if most 'reworks' are more tweak than rework Show nested quote +
Well to be fair about Xerath I think more people complaining were that the rework made him lose his identity more so than it actually made him weaker. .
no he's just weaker, if old Xerath had gotten a chance to live thru the Exaust no fun zone meta he woulda been every bit as powerful as Ziggs but with a free void staff and one (combo)shot capability if you eat a stun when his ult is up
If you played a lot of Xerath pre-rework, it is because he lost his identity. No self root completely killed what made him unique. Don't say "but the ult"; that shit is an absolutely garbage compromise. I would've gladly traded free pen for a more suitable passive and a better E, and I'm willing to bet a tonne of old Xerath players would've done the same. I was glad I could refund him and all his skins when Riot still allowed champ refunds for reworks.
On Cass, I'm still mystified (as others have mentioned) as to why they couldn't try just making E more responsive first. Lane bully? In an era of Lee and Elise, Cass is absolute dog meat if she goes a fraction too far.
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On September 12 2014 13:43 Ketara wrote:
Guys remember when they reworked Sivir?
Huge nerf.
And then it turned out they buffed her aa animation and they reverted the base AS nerf. But yeah, give your biased and incomplete version to further your claims.
The simple fact that you base your assessment of Viktor off of a 6-items build would be enough to offhand whatever you say about his damage potential.
You could give him 1k free AP automatically when the game hits 50 minutes in exchange for E augment not granting any AP and it'd still be a net nerf to him.
Noone here said Xerath was nerfed (it was obvious the numbers on W are fucking bonkers), he's just not as satisfying to play because his ult is so underwhelming particle-wise, and in the end he's even more oppressive than old Xerath ('cept he takes a bit longer to drop all of his stuff and his stun isn't point'n'click anymore, but the rest went exactly the way Riot said was bad about old Xerath and needed a rework).
And Nidalee is nerfed. Just because she's broken post-rework doesn't mean it's a buff, she happened to be even worse pre-rework (and also easier to play, spamming spears all day > splitpushing and avoiding full blown teamfights all day in terms of skill floor; her offlane laning phase is way worse though).
On September 12 2014 15:46 iCanada wrote:
I'm other news, Viktor's new E augment is crap. You can't one shot a wave with it because the explosion totally misses the melee creeps.
Zzz...
See, that's exactly what someone playing Viktor will first think about and that numbers crunching won't tell you shit about.
Apparently they made the explosion occur earlier on PBE (in exchange for nerfing Q and the augments' stats), gotta see if these 0.25s change something.
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I think Viktor mostly just needs QoL changes rather than a rework, but I'll wait to see how it goes once it's live. He's the only mid I really play, so I hope they don't wreck him.
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EPT
