EPT[Patch 4.13] Sona Update General Discussion - Page 54
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11787 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Viktor's W takes a long-ass time to deply (almost half a second), and that's only because it was already QoL'd shortly after his release, where it was obnoxious and unusable unless as a follow-up to a long stun or when someone's already on top of you (read: you're going to die before it stuns anyway), so it removes a bunch of the plays you could do with it. And "destroy projectiles" is a pretty cancerous concept in itself when it's so available (Yasuo is obnoxious but has other weaknesses, but Braum is pretty widespread, and we've all seen what a comp with Braum+Yasuo does to projectiles). I'd say they mainly need to assess where they want to go with Viktor because he'll never rival Ziggs fo poke/clear (TF does it pretty well too, and Anivia is way better at zone control and clearing, with stronger cc to boot), nor Karthus for teamfight AoE damage. Currently he's a midgame burst mage who falls stop stupidly hard because people look at his ratios and drool all over and then forget about cast times/animations and range, which are kind of a big deal if Cait, Lucian and Tristana are any indication. 'cept y'know, even if you gave a dash to Brand he'd still not be played because skillshots + kinda short range (not that much in a vacuum, but compare him to whatever's played; Brand was a lane bully for 2 weeks, till his E range got nerfed and Orianna came out, now there's also Ziggs and Syndra and good luck killing Ahri with her mobility + now that she's got mana-free waveclear to ignore your E anyway), so it's not like the role of a mage as a burst champion, especially AoE, is something that's ever been popular since s2. And it's fueled by the power of his E from level 7 (when you have augment and enough base damage to kill caster minions), it's not something specific to Viktor, it's simply giving him huge numbers on a single spell and riding it, same as if Malphite's E did 500 base damage with a long cd. So they have to assess where they want to go, what they want to be strong and weak for him, to give coherence to it (because Viktor's ranges on Q/W/R are all disconnected from his base stats (save his armour) and his cast times/animations), and then you can work on it and how you push the augments in all this. Also the way you handle them of course, if he chooses one or if he can combine them, or upgrade the one he buys once more, you don't shuffle his augment-less kit and stats around the same way. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
and i meant that it slowed -> paused projectiles. not destroyed them. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
It's just that Viktor is subpar damage-wise if you don't buy his Death Augment, and his utility doesn't make up for it (W is slow to cast and deploy, and takes 1.5s to stun your target, Q is barely usable because anyone you cast it on is in range to hurt you or jump you (save for Olaf, hue), R's silence is only good as an interrupt and it's low range+cast time so again you have to know what you're waiting for). They'd need to make changes to his kit (not necessarily damage numbers) so that he doesn't rely so much on the bonus damage from Death to, not even be strong, but at least relevant, and/or to his augments to bring them all to similar levels of power, not necessarily in a vacuum but at least when put against the playstyles they're supposed to support (eg. if Augment Power is supposed to be "tanky" it'd need to be much more cost-effective stats-wise than Augment Death, since Viktor lacks the utility from a real tank/bruiser, while he's already damage-oriented). The pause thing for W was mentioned a long time ago, apparently it'd be annoying to code at the time and they weren't sure if it would bring much (eg. they thought it'd be strong if it stopped autoattacks, but if it doesn't then it only delays damage until the spell is over). | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
Power augment gives 50% bonus to shield strength and duration, and projectile speed in addition to the short speed boost also increases damage and movespeed of his ultimate by 20% gravity augment increases the AOE and duration in addition to the range upgrade also increases the silence duration of his ultimate by 2 seconds Death augment leaves a burning trail that deals 20% damage of the spell over 4 seconds in addition to the 30% extra burn damage Decreases the base cooldown of his ultimate by 20 seconds. EDIT: alaric i definitely think the increased AP rylais is a must for viktor now though, letting you activate his stun and have self setup for it is pretty important. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 09 2014 20:17 Alaric wrote: You'd need to hit E for this, with a meager 15% 1.5s slow, because if you're in range to Q people you're in range to get jumped on and die, unless it's their frontline and they're busy skirmishing with yours (or diving another one of your team) and in that case you don't need setup. 15% slow is enough and the 35% is definitely enough a 5.5 second 15% slow is still useful . the health helps with the Q scenario and the 100 ap definitely is good for his solid ratios. I haven't played viktor is a long time, but with nami, even the level 1 blessing is enough to setup for the prison, which has roughly the same activation time, but a smaller aoe. | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
the reason you play ranked is to play games where people are more seriously trying to win/better players in general, just because a lot of people take their elo seriously and losing a game because you didn't pick your strongest suit shouldn't matter to you at all. On August 09 2014 22:03 Ghost-z wrote: So what ever happened to Trundle in the top lane? What pushed him out of favor and did the Botrk changes secretly bring him back as a top tier counter to full tanks? people stopped picking bruisers and kited kiting ranged champs which he cant do anything to at all in teamfights wtf | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
I also don't know why people keep thinking the BotRK changes were a buff to bruisers. Eating 8% of your current health in damage per shot pre-resists is like nightmare inducing as a bruiser. Any benefit you get versus other tops is a pittance compared to how much it hurts against ADCs. Like one double shot from Lucian double procs that shit, so even if he has very little AD you just lost a shit ton of health. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 09 2014 23:11 zer0das wrote: To add to that, you ever try to pin down the dash all the time Lucian with Trundle? It's like trying to catch water with a wire mesh, it just doesn't freaking work. I also don't know why people keep thinking the BotRK changes were a buff to bruisers. Eating 8% of your current health in damage per shot pre-resists is like nightmare inducing as a bruiser. Any benefit you get versus other tops is a pittance compared to how much it hurts against ADCs. Like one double shot from Lucian double procs that shit, so even if he has very little AD you just lost a shit ton of health. if you are really good with it, trundles pillar stops every non instant escape. though if lucian is full hp you likely can't burst him down before it comes off CD. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On August 09 2014 23:13 PrinceXizor wrote: if you are really good with it, trundles pillar stops every non instant escape. though if lucian is full hp you likely can't burst him down before it comes off CD. Which is so useful when it doesn't have a meaningful cooldown compared to pillar. Not to mention support peel. Although it's not as bad as it was, but it's still not exactly the greatest situation for Trundle. Game really shifted to hard initiators to deal with hypercarries and Trundle simply isn't one. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Maokai, Alistar, etc. are picked for tankiness, ability to soak up incoming damage from everyone while the AD can tear to shreds from the backline, not for initiation power (although that's one of the perks of Alistar with flash up). | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 09 2014 23:31 zer0das wrote: Which is so useful when it doesn't have a meaningful cooldown compared to pillar. Not to mention support peel. Although it's not as bad as it was, but it's still not exactly the greatest situation for Trundle. Game really shifted to hard initiators to deal with hypercarries and Trundle simply isn't one. yeah but shutting Shyvana or lee sin up when they go in is so satisfying. lol | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22167 Posts
On August 09 2014 23:51 Alaric wrote: We'd still see Malphite if hard initiators were sought after. Apart from Rengar+Orianna there's not really hard initiators in the game competitively atm, even Leona got phased out. Instead we have fishermen, Ahri, Elise, Thresh, trying to catch people. Maokai, Alistar, etc. are picked for tankiness, ability to soak up incoming damage from everyone while the AD can tear to shreds from the backline, not for initiation power (although that's one of the perks of Alistar with flash up). Im actually kinda of amazed Malphite hasn't shown up yet with the prevalence of Kog around. | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
I always build Botrk on Trundle top lane and not all Tops and ADCs build Botrk so in those cases its a straight buff because trundle never relies on bursting anyone with the active anyway. And against ADC's who do build Botrk, trundle doesn't suffer quite as hard as other bruiser/tanks because he will regain lots of HP and Resists a few seconds into the fight which allow him to sustain himself around half HP where the %HP damage is less effective. I agree with nafta that it's probably the AP tops that are crowding him out because his Q allows him to bully AD and Auto reliant top laners. Trundle is basically a jack-of-all-trades champion so if he can't bully his lane opponent then he doesn't really become strong enough in team fights unless you land the miracle pillar. Thanks for the insights. I'll keep trundle as a counter pick to tanky ADs in lane. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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