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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things.
Enough is enough. Let's move along now.
-NeoIllusions |
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 06 2014 00:25 yamato77 wrote:
If you guys think I was just balance whining, you've obviously just bought Riot's PR lock stock and barrel and I have nothing else to say to you.
Yeah, it wasn't exactly a balance whine
first you mentioned Orianna as a well designed champion
then you said how bad stealth assasins are for the game partially because there is no widely avaliable stealth reveal in the game (LOOOL) but they would still be bad because they require less skill
and then you vaguely masturbate over how LoL tries to copy DotA sometimes too little and sometimes too much and it's overall a big mess
you do a fantastic job of adding legitimacy to that part by saying that you were playing LoL before you switched to DotA2 which really convinced me
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United States47024 Posts
The other thing I forgot about melees is that most physical active on-hits apply lifesteal, even on the bonus damage portion (hi Rengar).
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On June 06 2014 00:30 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 23:58 TheYango wrote:On June 05 2014 23:53 Fusilero wrote:On June 05 2014 23:48 Nos- wrote:
I wonder how the changes will possibly affect other lanes I'd have to wait for the numbers but that shield might be good on riven and lane'zix, I'd consider it good on zed but botrk is too important for him. Well the other awkward thing about it on melee is that it's harder to pre-stack the shield before fights. Because of the relative resist values on creeps, you actually want to pre-charge it with a big hit on a creep that gives you a larger shield going into a fight. Also, one thing that might be pretty awkward to handle is how it interacts with crit. You'd pre-charge quite a large shield if you crit a creep before a fight starts. could be good for a hard splitpusher though
Hmm don't a lot of the good splitpushers go either BotrK or Hydra? Don't know if the passive is worth getting BT over those 2.
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According to Reddit, Curse is getting 2 Koreans? People are saying either Pray + Maknoon or Pray + Expession.
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On June 06 2014 00:20 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 00:11 yamato77 wrote:On June 05 2014 23:58 Scip wrote:On June 05 2014 23:52 yamato77 wrote:
Obviously people don't agree with me, I'm fine with that, you all can move on. I used your name only because you are the last one who posted about game design maybe something like ClutZ's Beautiful Mind would be more appropriate I don't really mind that you pointed out that my thoughts were obviously on game design, but I do mind the implication that this shouldn't be talked about here. I guess if I want to talk about design philosophy, I should just go make my own thread so people in GD can ignore it and whine about GD being awful instead of engaging in any actual, you know, discussion in General Discussion. Where would you have us talk about the actual fucking game though for the reasons I think I rather crudely stated earlier having both kinds of discussions in the same thread is a no-no and making a new thread for what is essentially a glorified balance whine with a pinch of "what I find fun in games" every time a patch comes out seems rather silly Ketara's suggestion of making exclusively the PBE thread for balance/design discussions sounds good
I mean technically he was talking about stuff that's not in the game yet, so technically the PBE thread is already where it belonged.
The reason why I read GD is because I still have the delusional belief that I'll find something in here that will teach me something and make me a better player. There's nothing inherently wrong about discussing balance and game design. However, it doesn't make anybody a better player.
What makes it worse is that, as Scip pointed out, having both discussions in the same thread creates situations over and over again where a player asks a question about the current game where they need help and can improve as a player, and the balance discussion crowd responds to it by transforming it into a balance discussion. This implies that there's no way the player can overcome the situation, the game needs to change. The balance discussion people get their balance argument and the people who want to learn things and improve just stop reading the thread.
I've been guilty of the same shit mind, because every time people bash on Riot for what I think are bad reasons I try to take the other side of the argument and get them to stop, but it doesn't make the thread healthier.
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Re: what Prog talked about.
I agree with you that it's moving around the core skills needed to perform well in LoL (laning mechanics, wave control, etc. becoming less important than map-wide movement and teamfighting for example), and not necessarily an increase or reduction of abilty to express one's skill.
However, the topic at hand was that by putting too much emphasis on the later parts of the game, you end up engineering artificial "comebacks" and promoting longer, possibly more passive games, which people have complained about for quite some time when the state of LoL was perceived as such.
Personally, I like when there's movement on the map, when fights can be fierce and still last some time (eg. not resolved because Ziggs ult followed by Jinx execution put the whole enemy team close to a third of its health with only 2 spells), when there's a vision game and flanking maneuvers, etc.
While I dislike the state of offlaners competitively, the offlaner+support+jungler gank squad is something I enjoy watching after the dearth of ganking and fighting the recent trends had imposed. I like it when a team that's behind can turtle till a certain item timing and then try to take a fight to switch momentum, but I hate when it's the default behaviour for a whole 15+ minutes because "if we try to make a play we have ~33% chances to comeback, if we turtle even if they outscale us we'll end up at almost ~50% to win the game" almost every single time.
Also as a jungle main, do I really need to say what I thought of the "comeback experience" mechanic?
On June 05 2014 23:31 Ketara wrote:
By making the power level of items more similar to each other, you are by design reducing the number of cases where one item is the best choice, and increasing the number of cases where items have equivalent power levels and player choice becomes meaningful.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
As an example, I think most everybody agrees that there's more item diversity for APs than there are for ADs, and this is exactly how the AP items work.
Stats relevant to marksmen's core build: AD, AS, crit%, ArPen (preferably %ArPen because they work on 2-3 item timings and how flat ArPen becomes worse as time passes)
Stats relevant to generic mages' core build: AP, mana and/or mp5, CDR, MPen (flat or % arguable)
Typical marksmen items: stat sticks.
Typical mages items: AP-providing utility items.
Most marskmen want a healthy mix of stats, while mages tend to be more skewed (add to it that mana/mp5 tend to become inefficient past some point, and that CDR has a hard cap). But the key word here is utility. Apart from BotRK, and sometimes Shiv for champions with weak pushing, you see no utility in marksmen builds. Even Triforce is used as a dps/burst item on some champions rather than an utility one (Kog may be an exception).
Of course mages have more diversity! ... well, on paper. Now (partly thanks to the meta) it's Grail for everyone and noone's seen a Rylai in ages.
On June 05 2014 23:49 TheYango wrote:
I'd actually love to see the new Bloodthirster passive used with Hydra lifesteal, but buying both just sounds suicidal most of the time.
It's a shame they couldn't put that passive on something smaller and more affordable.
Well you know Riot's track-record with creating utility-based items and budgets... and just in case, they stated they're going to increase Crucible's price by adding gold-inefficient stats to it (mana and mp5, which will be superfluous because of Chalice being a core component), because supports buying it at large is bad.
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ADC's as a role would be so much stronger with the revert on the MS nerfs to PD. No need to go through with all these random BF sword changes, and what not.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 06 2014 00:37 Ketara wrote:
What makes it worse is that, as Scip pointed out, having both discussions in the same thread creates situations over and over again where a player asks a question about the current game where they need help and can improve as a player, and the balance discussion crowd responds to it by transforming it into a balance discussion. This implies that there's no way the player can overcome the situation, the game needs to change. The balance discussion people get their balance argument and the people who want to learn things and improve just stop reading the thread.
To be fair, half those questions are more appropriate for the SQSA thread as well, so it's not just the balance discussion that's inappropriate here.
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On June 06 2014 00:17 YouGotNothin wrote:
The new BT sounds like it could be pretty sweet on Riven/Renekton/Fiora, I love the idea of overheal. Maybe melee ADCs will finally be good!
It'd be pretty meh on Riven, to be honest. Currently, the only reason to buy BT on her is because it provides a bigger shield. If the AD drops to 80, it matches Hydra on AD, negating that edge, and weakening the shield bonus depending on how the overheal plays out. Also, the jump back to 1600g for BF Sword is absolutely awful in top Lane and one of the reasons why Hydra has become so popular in it's very flexible build path.
In the end, I think it'll remain a luxury item reserved for fighter-centric builds on her.
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Shiv provides as much MS as pre-nerf PD though (6% Shiv, 5% PD and ignoring unit collision which doesn't usually matter to ranged champions... ironic considering some melee build Shiv).
On June 06 2014 00:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 00:37 Ketara wrote:
What makes it worse is that, as Scip pointed out, having both discussions in the same thread creates situations over and over again where a player asks a question about the current game where they need help and can improve as a player, and the balance discussion crowd responds to it by transforming it into a balance discussion. This implies that there's no way the player can overcome the situation, the game needs to change. The balance discussion people get their balance argument and the people who want to learn things and improve just stop reading the thread. To be fair, like half those questions are more appropriate for the SQSA thread as well, so it's not just the balance discussion that's inappropriate here.
Real question, in the end what are we supposed to discuss here? Current game-state topics intricate enough to warrant not posting in the SQSA thread, and generic enough to warrant not posting in a champion thread?
(I guess an issue with the champion threads is that not so many people read or post in there so for some champions you'd be better served posting here than there, but that's related to the users, not the policy.)
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On June 06 2014 00:33 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 00:30 Nos- wrote:On June 05 2014 23:58 TheYango wrote:On June 05 2014 23:53 Fusilero wrote:On June 05 2014 23:48 Nos- wrote:
I wonder how the changes will possibly affect other lanes I'd have to wait for the numbers but that shield might be good on riven and lane'zix, I'd consider it good on zed but botrk is too important for him. Well the other awkward thing about it on melee is that it's harder to pre-stack the shield before fights. Because of the relative resist values on creeps, you actually want to pre-charge it with a big hit on a creep that gives you a larger shield going into a fight. Also, one thing that might be pretty awkward to handle is how it interacts with crit. You'd pre-charge quite a large shield if you crit a creep before a fight starts. could be good for a hard splitpusher though Hmm don't a lot of the good splitpushers go either BotrK or Hydra? Don't know if the passive is worth getting BT over those 2.
Yea I did mention this since the likes of jax/trynd/shyv would definitely want bork, and the only real case for BT i can think of at the moment is top lee sin. Although this is all shitty speculation from a guy that doesn't even play the game that much anymore lol
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I think it would be really great if this thread was just used to discuss the game and learning about the game and improving at the game. I mean we also discuss Esports news or whatever whenever drama happens, and I don't like those conversations but they're better than Riot hate circlejerk I suppose.
If something particularly clever about an individual champion or matchup is posted here, some upstanding citizen could move it to the relevant champion thread.
The problem with the champion threads is that none of the OPs are around anymore and nobody is updating any of them, and that is a different problem altogether.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 06 2014 00:38 wei2coolman wrote:
ADC's as a role would be so much stronger with the revert on the MS nerfs to PD. No need to go through with all these random BF sword changes, and what not.
TBH if there's one place AD itemization has lagged behind other roles it's that over time, other roles have had an increasing number of items that provide well-rounded combinations of the stats they need while ADs still have comparatively lopsided items. APs have had an increasing number of all-rounder items added to the game (Grail still being the poster child of this), and defensive stats tend to come on well-balanced HP+resist items rather than really lopsided HP-heavy or resist-heavy defensive items they used to. Conversely, Riot still hasn't really created a wide-use AD+AS item, so ADs that don't buy BotRK or Triforce need to wait for their 2nd major item before they have both of these stats in a balanced combination.
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On June 06 2014 00:45 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 00:33 Numy wrote:On June 06 2014 00:30 Nos- wrote:On June 05 2014 23:58 TheYango wrote:On June 05 2014 23:53 Fusilero wrote:On June 05 2014 23:48 Nos- wrote:
I wonder how the changes will possibly affect other lanes I'd have to wait for the numbers but that shield might be good on riven and lane'zix, I'd consider it good on zed but botrk is too important for him. Well the other awkward thing about it on melee is that it's harder to pre-stack the shield before fights. Because of the relative resist values on creeps, you actually want to pre-charge it with a big hit on a creep that gives you a larger shield going into a fight. Also, one thing that might be pretty awkward to handle is how it interacts with crit. You'd pre-charge quite a large shield if you crit a creep before a fight starts. could be good for a hard splitpusher though Hmm don't a lot of the good splitpushers go either BotrK or Hydra? Don't know if the passive is worth getting BT over those 2. Yea I did mention this since the likes of jax/trynd/shyv would definitely want bork, and the only real case for BT i can think of at the moment is top lee sin. Although this is all shitty speculation from a guy that doesn't even play the game that much anymore lol
As it is currently, there is no reason ever to build BT on a melee unless you're so far ahead it doesn't matter. Hydra just outperforms it.
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On June 06 2014 00:43 Alaric wrote:Shiv provides as much MS as pre-nerf PD though (6% Shiv, 5% PD and ignoring unit collision which doesn't usually matter to ranged champions... ironic considering some melee build Shiv). Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 00:40 TheYango wrote:On June 06 2014 00:37 Ketara wrote:
What makes it worse is that, as Scip pointed out, having both discussions in the same thread creates situations over and over again where a player asks a question about the current game where they need help and can improve as a player, and the balance discussion crowd responds to it by transforming it into a balance discussion. This implies that there's no way the player can overcome the situation, the game needs to change. The balance discussion people get their balance argument and the people who want to learn things and improve just stop reading the thread. To be fair, like half those questions are more appropriate for the SQSA thread as well, so it's not just the balance discussion that's inappropriate here. Real question, in the end what are we supposed to discuss here? Current game-state topics intricate enough to warrant not posting in the SQSA thread, and generic enough to warrant not posting in a champion thread? (I guess an issue with the champion threads is that not so many people read or post in there so for some champions you'd be better served posting here than there, but that's related to the users, not the policy.)
Wut. PD was like 12% MS... 15% at one point too iirc.
ALSO. GET UR MIND BLOWN RIOT.
i'm still pretty fucking salty about Riot's inability to analyze why Mikael's is the go to item for supports.
Want Ohmwrecker to be bought more? Get rid of blasting wand, put in a cloth armor. BOOM. Make it cost 1500 total. BAM! Guess what. Fuck ton of supports gunna be buying this item. Tankiness? Check. Cool active? Check. Cheap? Check. Bad slot efficiency? Check.
Want Twin Shadows to be bought more? Change build path to only requires Aether Wisp and Ruby Crystal. Boom! 5% CDR, 250 hp, 40AP, 7% MS, lower overall gold cost by 500. BAMMMO! 1900 gold roaming gank item for supports? SOUNDS GOOD TO ME.
Want Zeke's to be strong? Ruby Crystal + long sword new recipe. Remove 20% cdr. BLAMMO. It's fucking 1400 gold now. BOOM. SO GOOD. ADC WANTS TO RUSH IE? NP. YOU GOT ZEKE'S NOW. YOUR SHITTY TEAMMATE NO LONGER REQUIRED TO BUILD BT ALL THE TIME.
BOOM. HIRE ME. RITO.
On June 06 2014 00:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 00:38 wei2coolman wrote:
ADC's as a role would be so much stronger with the revert on the MS nerfs to PD. No need to go through with all these random BF sword changes, and what not. TBH if there's one place AD itemization has lagged behind other roles it's that over time, other roles have had an increasing number of items that provide well-rounded combinations of the stats they need while ADs still have comparatively lopsided items. APs have had an increasing number of all-rounder items added to the game (Grail still being the poster child of this), and defensive stats tend to come on well-balanced HP+resist items rather than really lopsided HP-heavy or resist-heavy defensive items they used to. Conversely, Riot still hasn't really created a wide-use AD+AS item, so ADs that don't buy BotRK or Triforce need to wait for their 2nd major item before they have both of these stats in a balanced combination.
This is definitely the case. AP you can build Zhonya's without sacrificing a slot to defensive items, can get utility through morello, and grail. The closest thing AD has to any of those is Muramana. Which fucking blows.
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What would you call a wide-use "AD+AS item"? Usually AD is worth more than AS in the early game, apart from specific cases (like farming the jungle, hitting towers, drake, prolonged trades, etc.), so you'd want an item leaning toward AD for early-game purposes (probably building out of Pickaxe rather than Long Sword for example).
On the other hand, if it doesn't provide much AS, then it won't be perceived as good enough for a midgame timing compared to items like PD or Shiv (and the all-rounder nature of triforce may still put it ahead in these cases), and LW wouldn't necessarily be a good 2nd buy either because of a lack of AS and crit. On the other hand, your 2-item timing if you build something like PD or BT may end up very skewed toward one stat or the other while you want your distribution to be well-rounded.
Maybe if several items with these kinds of distribution existed it'd help mixing and matching and deciding how you want to shape your power curve around itemisation, though.
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On June 06 2014 00:47 Ketara wrote:
I think it would be really great if this thread was just used to discuss the game and learning about the game and improving at the game. I mean we also discuss Esports news or whatever whenever drama happens, and I don't like those conversations but they're better than Riot hate circlejerk I suppose.
If something particularly clever about an individual champion or matchup is posted here, some upstanding citizen could move it to the relevant champion thread.
The problem with the champion threads is that none of the OPs are around anymore and nobody is updating any of them, and that is a different problem altogether.
Yeah, your Lux thread really should be the rule and not the exception for champion threads. I do wish we had a dedicated strategy/gameplay thread and a dedicated e-sports drama thread (I know we technically do but it's rarely used).
This thread gets really hard to follow when there are simultaneous discussions on strategy, e-sports drama, and then the worst (which seems to be happening a lot recently): highschool-level infighting between people about nothing in particular, mostly hurt egos or something I dunno.
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On June 06 2014 00:56 Alaric wrote:
What would you call a wide-use "AD+AS item"? Usually AD is worth more than AS in the early game, apart from specific cases (like farming the jungle, hitting towers, drake, prolonged trades, etc.), so you'd want an item leaning toward AD for early-game purposes (probably building out of Pickaxe rather than Long Sword for example).
On the other hand, if it doesn't provide much AS, then it won't be perceived as good enough for a midgame timing compared to items like PD or Shiv (and the all-rounder nature of triforce may still put it ahead in these cases), and LW wouldn't necessarily be a good 2nd buy either because of a lack of AS and crit. On the other hand, your 2-item timing if you build something like PD or BT may end up very skewed toward one stat or the other while you want your distribution to be well-rounded.
Maybe if several items with these kinds of distribution existed it'd help mixing and matching and deciding how you want to shape your power curve around itemisation, though.
I've been touting around the idea of an item that gives no AS, but double the value of crit chance of it's PD/shiv counterparts for a while.
Like have the overall recipe be like 2 cloak of agility + 2 Brawler's glove, 60% crit chance, 5% ms. Everytime you crit you gain some cool effect, like a shield, or movespeed bonus.
On June 06 2014 01:01 YouGotNothin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 00:47 Ketara wrote:
I think it would be really great if this thread was just used to discuss the game and learning about the game and improving at the game. I mean we also discuss Esports news or whatever whenever drama happens, and I don't like those conversations but they're better than Riot hate circlejerk I suppose.
If something particularly clever about an individual champion or matchup is posted here, some upstanding citizen could move it to the relevant champion thread.
The problem with the champion threads is that none of the OPs are around anymore and nobody is updating any of them, and that is a different problem altogether. Yeah, your Lux thread really should be the rule and not the exception for champion threads. I do wish we had a dedicated strategy/gameplay thread and a dedicated e-sports drama thread (I know we technically do but it's rarely used). This thread gets really hard to follow when there are simultaneous discussions on strategy, e-sports drama, and then the worst (which seems to be happening a lot recently): highschool-level infighting between people about nothing in particular, mostly hurt egos or something I dunno.
Problem is champions eat a lot of nerfs/buffs/changes fairly frequently. The reason Ketara's Lux guide works out is cuz Lux's nerfs/buffs hasn't changed much of her playstyle. It's still, land skill shots, don't suck.
Imagine trying to write a khazix strat guide... that'd be a fucking nightmare, the fucking buggers been changed like a billion times, and the way he's played has changed each time riot's changed him.
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United States47024 Posts
Or you just take away the all-rounder items from everyone else because why is "one-item-gives-you-everything" good for any role?
On June 06 2014 01:01 YouGotNothin wrote:
This thread gets really hard to follow when there are simultaneous discussions on strategy, e-sports drama, and then the worst (which seems to be happening a lot recently): highschool-level infighting between people about nothing in particular, mostly hurt egos or something I dunno.
It's cuz Roffles isn't around to shut people down.
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On June 06 2014 01:03 TheYango wrote:
Or you just take away the all-rounder items from everyone else because why is "one-item-gives-you-everything" good for any role?
End game fantasy
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EPT
