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On May 27 2014 12:59 benefluence wrote:
Doesn't the game warn you if Rengar is stealthed nearby and would otherwise be visible? I'm remember them talking about it during the rework discussion.
yes, but if he comes around a corner or something or jumps over a wall you're 10000% fucked, and knowing he's stealthed nearby doesn't help if you don't know where he is and you run right towards him
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On May 27 2014 13:02 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 12:59 benefluence wrote:
Doesn't the game warn you if Rengar is stealthed nearby and would otherwise be visible? I'm remember them talking about it during the rework discussion. yes, but if he comes around a corner or something or jumps over a wall you're 10000% fucked, and knowing he's stealthed nearby doesn't help if you don't know where he is and you run right towards him
Also the move speed buff and leap makes it hard to run away even if you know which way he is coming from
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Hard or impossible? If we're talking a truly broken champion, you have to have 0% options that will allow you to live vs him at all times. This is hyperbole consistent with how the anti-Rengar arguments have been made.
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On May 27 2014 13:02 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 12:59 benefluence wrote:
Doesn't the game warn you if Rengar is stealthed nearby and would otherwise be visible? I'm remember them talking about it during the rework discussion. yes, but if he comes around a corner or something or jumps over a wall you're 10000% fucked, and knowing he's stealthed nearby doesn't help if you don't know where he is and you run right towards him
It does warn you but Rengar is fast enough with the ult and speed passive and jump boost on bonetooth that he can get into the 1k range to hit you almost right after you see the warning.
It's definitely hurtful, as a Rengar player to give your opponent the warning time they need to back towards their team or put their finger on hourglass or something. :/ I've gone back to running ignite + smite on Jungle Rengar too. I don't think his damage got nerfed but I'm finding it hard to kill people without the fury generation on his ult. I don't want to always have full fury because sometimes I want to use my abilities for other things.
On May 27 2014 12:27 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 12:22 Kinie wrote:
I think the biggest oversight with vision changes is that the lvl 9 red trinket doesn't revealed stealth champs, you have to get the upgraded version or carry a pink around with you at all times for any team fight with a stealth champ on the enemy team. also, on the rengar note, his trinket doesn't grant him vision of invisible units until 20 stacks which is annoying the few times i've played him where i've used my ult to jump on a twitch or something and havent had enough dps to kill him before he goes invis
Ugh. 20 stacks? That's like 7 kills and 6 assists. That hurts. What if you're laning against Akali and she just puts her cloud down while fighting you? You need to expend a pink ward for every duel?
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On May 27 2014 12:33 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 12:08 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
i honestly don't think rengar is op, but since the day of his release i have hated him more than any champion in this game There's not enough of a positive correlation between Rengars picked and his team having a significantly higher winrate, as evidenced by his winrate at higher tiers of play. Lower tiers I'm sorry but the game can't be balanced at all levels, he truly is OP when facing people who are casually playing and unfamiliar with his possibilities.
The problem is not that Rengar is OP though, its that Rengar doesn't have a kit that is healthy for the game. He has been a Soloqueue stomper while not good in competitive in at least 2 iterations I remember. He has been OP in competitive in at least 2 other iterations.
And while I agree that ideally you don't balance for soloQ, sometimes there is a soloQ problem, like where a champion is disproportionately good at feasting on a single bad player, which is problematic because there usually is one.
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On May 27 2014 13:12 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 12:33 Zdrastochye wrote:On May 27 2014 12:08 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
i honestly don't think rengar is op, but since the day of his release i have hated him more than any champion in this game There's not enough of a positive correlation between Rengars picked and his team having a significantly higher winrate, as evidenced by his winrate at higher tiers of play. Lower tiers I'm sorry but the game can't be balanced at all levels, he truly is OP when facing people who are casually playing and unfamiliar with his possibilities. The problem is not that Rengar is OP though, its that Rengar doesn't have a kit that is healthy for the game. He has been a Soloqueue stomper while not good in competitive in at least 2 iterations I remember. He has been OP in competitive in at least 2 other iterations. And while I agree that ideally you don't balance for soloQ, sometimes there is a soloQ problem, like where a champion is disproportionately good at feasting on a single bad player, which is problematic because there usually is one.
Rengar's win rate at low elo isn't that high.
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On May 27 2014 13:13 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 13:12 cLutZ wrote:On May 27 2014 12:33 Zdrastochye wrote:On May 27 2014 12:08 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
i honestly don't think rengar is op, but since the day of his release i have hated him more than any champion in this game There's not enough of a positive correlation between Rengars picked and his team having a significantly higher winrate, as evidenced by his winrate at higher tiers of play. Lower tiers I'm sorry but the game can't be balanced at all levels, he truly is OP when facing people who are casually playing and unfamiliar with his possibilities. The problem is not that Rengar is OP though, its that Rengar doesn't have a kit that is healthy for the game. He has been a Soloqueue stomper while not good in competitive in at least 2 iterations I remember. He has been OP in competitive in at least 2 other iterations. And while I agree that ideally you don't balance for soloQ, sometimes there is a soloQ problem, like where a champion is disproportionately good at feasting on a single bad player, which is problematic because there usually is one. Rengar's win rate at low elo isn't that high.
Thats fine. My points about Rengar are actually unrelated to his strength, but rather about how he is impossible to balance within LOL, and that people pointing out that perhaps he isn't OP still have no leg to stand on, because he is broken and will continue to be without a major overhaul to his kit as a whole.
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On May 27 2014 13:05 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 13:02 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On May 27 2014 12:59 benefluence wrote:
Doesn't the game warn you if Rengar is stealthed nearby and would otherwise be visible? I'm remember them talking about it during the rework discussion. yes, but if he comes around a corner or something or jumps over a wall you're 10000% fucked, and knowing he's stealthed nearby doesn't help if you don't know where he is and you run right towards him Also the move speed buff and leap makes it hard to run away even if you know which way he is coming from
I thought he doesn't get the movespeed buff until after his stealth wears off.
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On May 27 2014 13:24 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 13:05 Goumindong wrote:On May 27 2014 13:02 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On May 27 2014 12:59 benefluence wrote:
Doesn't the game warn you if Rengar is stealthed nearby and would otherwise be visible? I'm remember them talking about it during the rework discussion. yes, but if he comes around a corner or something or jumps over a wall you're 10000% fucked, and knowing he's stealthed nearby doesn't help if you don't know where he is and you run right towards him Also the move speed buff and leap makes it hard to run away even if you know which way he is coming from I thought he doesn't get the movespeed buff until after his stealth wears off.
He gets 15% movespeed during stealth (30% with trinket bonus). And then he gets 25/35/45% movespeed for 5 seconds after stealth based on ult rank.
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On May 27 2014 13:13 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 13:12 cLutZ wrote:On May 27 2014 12:33 Zdrastochye wrote:On May 27 2014 12:08 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
i honestly don't think rengar is op, but since the day of his release i have hated him more than any champion in this game There's not enough of a positive correlation between Rengars picked and his team having a significantly higher winrate, as evidenced by his winrate at higher tiers of play. Lower tiers I'm sorry but the game can't be balanced at all levels, he truly is OP when facing people who are casually playing and unfamiliar with his possibilities. The problem is not that Rengar is OP though, its that Rengar doesn't have a kit that is healthy for the game. He has been a Soloqueue stomper while not good in competitive in at least 2 iterations I remember. He has been OP in competitive in at least 2 other iterations. And while I agree that ideally you don't balance for soloQ, sometimes there is a soloQ problem, like where a champion is disproportionately good at feasting on a single bad player, which is problematic because there usually is one. Rengar's win rate at low elo isn't that high.
Let's be real. At low ELOs people are picking him up because a) he's fotm and don't know how to play him or b) STILL trying to play him the way he used to be played and bitching that the rework was a failure.
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On May 27 2014 13:12 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 12:33 Zdrastochye wrote:On May 27 2014 12:08 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
i honestly don't think rengar is op, but since the day of his release i have hated him more than any champion in this game There's not enough of a positive correlation between Rengars picked and his team having a significantly higher winrate, as evidenced by his winrate at higher tiers of play. Lower tiers I'm sorry but the game can't be balanced at all levels, he truly is OP when facing people who are casually playing and unfamiliar with his possibilities. The problem is not that Rengar is OP though, its that Rengar doesn't have a kit that is healthy for the game. He has been a Soloqueue stomper while not good in competitive in at least 2 iterations I remember. He has been OP in competitive in at least 2 other iterations. And while I agree that ideally you don't balance for soloQ, sometimes there is a soloQ problem, like where a champion is disproportionately good at feasting on a single bad player, which is problematic because there usually is one.
The ability to 100-0 people is offset by the fact that you can do that and have it still not matter. I'm sorry but what's healthy is having an equal ability to win every game you play as everyone else does. Then player skill can define how good you actually are and we can get on with our lives. When he WAS OP (tank Rengar I'm talking to you) he did need to be nerfed, and he was. He has been nerfed, is no longer carrying games harder than anyone else at the role he's being play at, and doesn't need to be nerfed. There's plenty of people who play versus him and his ability to one shot them either never materializes or they somehow manage to outplay his "zero counterplay". I'm sorry it does happen.
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On May 27 2014 13:28 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 13:13 obesechicken13 wrote:On May 27 2014 13:12 cLutZ wrote:On May 27 2014 12:33 Zdrastochye wrote:On May 27 2014 12:08 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
i honestly don't think rengar is op, but since the day of his release i have hated him more than any champion in this game There's not enough of a positive correlation between Rengars picked and his team having a significantly higher winrate, as evidenced by his winrate at higher tiers of play. Lower tiers I'm sorry but the game can't be balanced at all levels, he truly is OP when facing people who are casually playing and unfamiliar with his possibilities. The problem is not that Rengar is OP though, its that Rengar doesn't have a kit that is healthy for the game. He has been a Soloqueue stomper while not good in competitive in at least 2 iterations I remember. He has been OP in competitive in at least 2 other iterations. And while I agree that ideally you don't balance for soloQ, sometimes there is a soloQ problem, like where a champion is disproportionately good at feasting on a single bad player, which is problematic because there usually is one. Rengar's win rate at low elo isn't that high. Let's be real. At low ELOs people are picking him up because a) he's fotm and don't know how to play him or b) STILL trying to play him the way he used to be played and bitching that the rework was a failure.
Yeah. I played against a Rengar today. He picked it into my WW jungle so I easily destroyed him while he built all damage.
He got pretty farmed because my top lane Teemo sucked. But still, it does not matter because I can stop him with my R almost instantly.... so I just need to predict his movements and counter him.
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On May 27 2014 13:39 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 13:12 cLutZ wrote:On May 27 2014 12:33 Zdrastochye wrote:On May 27 2014 12:08 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
i honestly don't think rengar is op, but since the day of his release i have hated him more than any champion in this game There's not enough of a positive correlation between Rengars picked and his team having a significantly higher winrate, as evidenced by his winrate at higher tiers of play. Lower tiers I'm sorry but the game can't be balanced at all levels, he truly is OP when facing people who are casually playing and unfamiliar with his possibilities. The problem is not that Rengar is OP though, its that Rengar doesn't have a kit that is healthy for the game. He has been a Soloqueue stomper while not good in competitive in at least 2 iterations I remember. He has been OP in competitive in at least 2 other iterations. And while I agree that ideally you don't balance for soloQ, sometimes there is a soloQ problem, like where a champion is disproportionately good at feasting on a single bad player, which is problematic because there usually is one. The ability to 100-0 people is offset by the fact that you can do that and have it still not matter. I'm sorry but what's healthy is having an equal ability to win every game you play as everyone else does. Then player skill can define how good you actually are and we can get on with our lives. When he WAS OP (tank Rengar I'm talking to you) he did need to be nerfed, and he was. He has been nerfed, is no longer carrying games harder than anyone else at the role he's being play at, and doesn't need to be nerfed. There's plenty of people who play versus him and his ability to one shot them either never materializes or they somehow manage to outplay his "zero counterplay". I'm sorry it does happen.
I don't think you get it. I don't care if he is overtuned, undertuned, or properly tuned (for this fleeting moment in time), if you actually read my last post, you would see that its not whether Rengar is balanced for 1 patch, its about whether he can stay balanced for multiple patches without Riot having to tweak his numbers with every tiny jungle/meta shift. Historically, the answer with Rengar has been NO.
And that is because his kit combines a bunch of things that are hard to balance like stealth, manaless, lane sustain, and a snowball mechanic. On top of that he is very all in, and lacks strong CC, so they have to make up for that with damage, and champs with CC/Disengage generally seem more stable than those that exchange that for pure damage(changing Zed's ult to make him less all-in stabilized him a bit, for instance). So yea, hard to balance is the problem, not his powerlevel at any instant in time.
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His lane sustain has been nerfed to the point where it's a nonfactor tbh.
The only problem he has currently is that he has Leblanc level burst while having a strong invisibility skill. As it is, there's virtually no time for players to react since the ! indicator range honestly isn't that big plus the fact that detection is pretty crappy.
Counterplay is almost as terrible a buzzword as "toxic" nowadays, but in this case it's pretty important. Rengar as it is has very little counterplay since by the time you see the ! indicator, Rengar's probably in range to gib you. Imo, the ! indicator should be global or semi-global. I mean, ffs, Pantheon ult gives the enemy an entire 1.5 second reaction time plus letting them see exactly where he will be and he has less burst than Rengar.
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As a support player, the best I can do when I see the exclamation point and hear the drums is stick close to my AD, pop oracle's lens and pray that I timed it right. Either that, or I burn a pink. The optimal situation is I'm playing a champ with point-and-click CC, and I sweep Rengar and lock him down so my team can spend half its burst (almost) killing him.
Either way, there's still that 3 level gap from when Rengar hits 6 until anyone can buy an oracle's lens (it's even worse for the support who is underleveled cuz he get's no love).
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There's also an issue with Hydra/Tiamat. Currently, you can activate Hydra/Tiamat while you're mid-dash, but the damage and effect won't actually go off until you land on your target. This essentially lets players completely circumvent the animation time and get an extra, instant speed nuke.
if that's fixed, Rengar's burst (or at least bursting time) will also go way down.
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Actually the real problem is people are banning braum. So riot makes a champion that's only stopped by braum so you stop banning him and start picking him against rengar. Brilliant!
(I don't know if braum does anything against rengar)
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On May 27 2014 14:06 Ryuu314 wrote:
There's also an issue with Hydra/Tiamat. Currently, you can activate Hydra/Tiamat while you're mid-dash, but the damage and effect won't actually go off until you land on your target. This essentially lets players completely circumvent the animation time and get an extra, instant speed nuke.
if that's fixed, Rengar's burst (or at least bursting time) will also go way down.
I don't know if that would alleviate people's concerns, but it wouldnt really change mine even if it did. I don't want them to nerf him so hard that only "Super Rango Bango NA11!" plays him. And then 6 months later have a few changes to Rengar and the meta and items cause him to be back in his FOTM splitpushing ways, or his lvl 1 AD rune cheese ways, or exploding squishies in new ways.
So, I'd prefer to fix him long term. A baseline of what he would look like would be something like: Now uses mana, Furocity stacks similarly to Power Chord, Empowered W is changed to a strong disengage tool/defensive steroid, ult is changed away from hard steath, bonetooth removed/minimized in changing the way Rengar plays.
Now I must sleep.
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Bearded Elder29904 Posts
Guys, guys... I've played jungle Maokai yesterday and I have to say, he's still pretty goddamn solid...
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 27 2014 15:07 739 wrote:
Guys, guys... I've played jungle Maokai yesterday and I have to say, he's still pretty goddamn solid...
So was my stool this morning but that doesn't mean it wasn't shit
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EPT
