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elder lizard still probably better.
feral flare has a potentially monstrous impact, but the issue is that you need to sink 2k gold into a shit item, then farm 25 camps, and then you still have to stack feral flare to make it better than elder lizard. if you manage to do all that and you haven't lost the game/your team hasn't gotten extremely far behind due to you being weaker than the enemy jungler you probably were gonna win/get carried by your team anyways.
On April 03 2014 08:36 canikizu wrote:
Wasn't at some point in the PBE, they said that the monsterkill charges will start to be stored in from Machete or Razor? If that still goes through, generally you only need to kill like 10, 15 monsters to transform Wriggle to Feral.
if this is the case then it could potentially be worth it on certain champs. but reading the patch notes it doesn't seem like that went through.
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Riot said
Feral Flare specifically focuses on late-game farming in the jungle at the expense of meaningful early to mid game power.
Just throwing this out there, late game jungling you get like nothing. Mid takes blue/wraiths, ADC takes red, and everyone else takes anything in front of them.
Not sure why Riot is trying to make Wriggles work so hard, it's a shit item from a style of jungling that no longer exists and likely has no place in this game. What is the point of a jungler if you afk farm for 20 mins?
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One of the biggest issues that I see is that feral flare gives no mana sustain. So for the few champions that this could be useful on, like Yi or Warwick, you basically have to permanently have blue or buy a chalice.
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On April 03 2014 08:37 Ryuu314 wrote:elder lizard still probably better. feral flare has a potentially monstrous impact, but the issue is that you need to sink 2k gold into a shit item, then farm 25 camps, and then you still have to stack feral flare to make it better than elder lizard. if you manage to do all that and you haven't lost the game/your team hasn't gotten extremely far behind due to you being weaker than the enemy jungler you probably were gonna win/get carried by your team anyways. Show nested quote +On April 03 2014 08:36 canikizu wrote:
Wasn't at some point in the PBE, they said that the monsterkill charges will start to be stored in from Machete or Razor? If that still goes through, generally you only need to kill like 10, 15 monsters to transform Wriggle to Feral.
if this is the case then it could potentially be worth it on certain champs. but reading the patch notes it doesn't seem like that went through.
1600 and fresh off the transform it does 33.3r magic damage on hit to champions.
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On April 03 2014 08:37 Ryuu314 wrote:elder lizard still probably better. feral flare has a potentially monstrous impact, but the issue is that you need to sink 2k gold into a shit item, then farm 25 camps, and then you still have to stack feral flare to make it better than elder lizard. if you manage to do all that and you haven't lost the game/your team hasn't gotten extremely far behind due to you being weaker than the enemy jungler you probably were gonna win/get carried by your team anyways. Show nested quote +On April 03 2014 08:36 canikizu wrote:
Wasn't at some point in the PBE, they said that the monsterkill charges will start to be stored in from Machete or Razor? If that still goes through, generally you only need to kill like 10, 15 monsters to transform Wriggle to Feral.
if this is the case then it could potentially be worth it on certain champs. but reading the patch notes it doesn't seem like that went through.
Isn't this kind of how jungle Karthus works though? You mostly just farm the jungle for a while in exchange for strong mid/late game?
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United States15536 Posts
On April 03 2014 08:46 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2014 08:37 Ryuu314 wrote:elder lizard still probably better. feral flare has a potentially monstrous impact, but the issue is that you need to sink 2k gold into a shit item, then farm 25 camps, and then you still have to stack feral flare to make it better than elder lizard. if you manage to do all that and you haven't lost the game/your team hasn't gotten extremely far behind due to you being weaker than the enemy jungler you probably were gonna win/get carried by your team anyways. On April 03 2014 08:36 canikizu wrote:
Wasn't at some point in the PBE, they said that the monsterkill charges will start to be stored in from Machete or Razor? If that still goes through, generally you only need to kill like 10, 15 monsters to transform Wriggle to Feral.
if this is the case then it could potentially be worth it on certain champs. but reading the patch notes it doesn't seem like that went through. Isn't this kind of how jungle Karthus works though? You mostly just farm the jungle for a while in exchange for strong mid/late game?
I'm not sure we should be judging anything on the basis of jungle Karthus.
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Man 33 magic damage per hit? Shit that's good. The only way that would suck if there was an item that gave more AD, CDR, true damage, and extra goodies like mana sustain!
Oh wait...
On April 03 2014 08:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2014 08:46 GolemMadness wrote:On April 03 2014 08:37 Ryuu314 wrote:elder lizard still probably better. feral flare has a potentially monstrous impact, but the issue is that you need to sink 2k gold into a shit item, then farm 25 camps, and then you still have to stack feral flare to make it better than elder lizard. if you manage to do all that and you haven't lost the game/your team hasn't gotten extremely far behind due to you being weaker than the enemy jungler you probably were gonna win/get carried by your team anyways. On April 03 2014 08:36 canikizu wrote:
Wasn't at some point in the PBE, they said that the monsterkill charges will start to be stored in from Machete or Razor? If that still goes through, generally you only need to kill like 10, 15 monsters to transform Wriggle to Feral.
if this is the case then it could potentially be worth it on certain champs. but reading the patch notes it doesn't seem like that went through. Isn't this kind of how jungle Karthus works though? You mostly just farm the jungle for a while in exchange for strong mid/late game? I'm not sure we should be judging anything on the basis of jungle Karthus.
This man is correct, there is a reason you NEVER see jungle Karthus at high level unless St is screwing off.
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On April 03 2014 08:47 Diamond wrote:Man 33 magic damage per hit? Shit that's good. The only way that would suck if there was an item that gave more AD, CDR, true damage, and extra goodies like mana sustain! Oh wait... Show nested quote +On April 03 2014 08:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:On April 03 2014 08:46 GolemMadness wrote:On April 03 2014 08:37 Ryuu314 wrote:elder lizard still probably better. feral flare has a potentially monstrous impact, but the issue is that you need to sink 2k gold into a shit item, then farm 25 camps, and then you still have to stack feral flare to make it better than elder lizard. if you manage to do all that and you haven't lost the game/your team hasn't gotten extremely far behind due to you being weaker than the enemy jungler you probably were gonna win/get carried by your team anyways. On April 03 2014 08:36 canikizu wrote:
Wasn't at some point in the PBE, they said that the monsterkill charges will start to be stored in from Machete or Razor? If that still goes through, generally you only need to kill like 10, 15 monsters to transform Wriggle to Feral.
if this is the case then it could potentially be worth it on certain champs. but reading the patch notes it doesn't seem like that went through. Isn't this kind of how jungle Karthus works though? You mostly just farm the jungle for a while in exchange for strong mid/late game? I'm not sure we should be judging anything on the basis of jungle Karthus. This man is correct, there is a reason you NEVER see jungle Karthus at high level unless St is screwing off.
True, not like there's a guy in top 30 challenger known for playing jungle Karthus with a 61% win rate.
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Ok 1 guy, I stand corrected. Remind me the last jungle karthus seen in a serious pro match?
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On April 03 2014 08:53 Diamond wrote:
Ok 1 guy, I stand corrected. Remind me the last jungle karthus seen in a serious pro match?
Yes, because if something isn't seen in a pro match, it surely can't be viable. Nobody here is a pro player. We're talking about solo queue.
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I thought there was a LCS game where we saw a Kathus jungling this split?
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I didn't say it's unusable, I said it's a not a good baseline.
I'm sure all the jungle Karthus mains will be thrilled with Feral Flare since it's the item being discussed.
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solo queue gimmick mains don't succeed because their playstyle is good, they succeed because their grasp of the gimmick is above the ability of opponents to execute on exploiting the obvious weaknesses
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Looking at the combat stats of Elder Lizard vs. Feral Flare.
Elder Lizard at level 18 deals 50 true damage per second to targets hit. It also gives 30 AD.
If you're a Tryndamere with no attackspeed items but Feral Flare (unrealistic) you have an attackspeed of 1.28. Feral Flare also gives 15 AD.
So, in order for Feral Flare to beat Elder Lizard in damage (counting the bonus AD difference), you need to have about 20 stacks.
If you also get a Shiv you've got 1.55 attackspeed, and only need 15 stacks.
I imagine by level 18 you kill 15 large monsters, and this isn't counting the added autoattack damage of 35% attackspeed at all, so I think it's fairly obvious that Feral Flare outdamages Elder Lizard on an autoattack reliant champion.
Note that you clear 4 big monsters per jungle clear, so we're talking 4-5 full clears to get to this point.
In terms of gold generation, if you're using conservation stacks perfectly (difficult) you're getting about 6.6 GP10 from it.
So in order for it to give more gold, you need to average about 130 gold per minute from the jungle.
I imagine just farming the jungle gives at least 200 gold per minute, so it looks to me that Feral Flare not only outdamages Elder Lizard after 4-5 jungle clears, it also gives more gold.
If the sustain isn't a problem and your champion is very autoattack reliant to the point of building ASPD.
Looks good on Trynd jungle, IMO. Not sure who else is big on autos and doesn't care about CDR or sustain. Aatrox maybe?
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On April 03 2014 08:58 Diamond wrote:
I didn't say it's unusable, I said it's a not a good baseline.
I'm sure all the jungle Karthus mains will be thrilled with Feral Flare since it's the item being discussed.
"there is a reason you NEVER see jungle Karthus at high level" + "Remind me the last jungle karthus seen in a serious pro match?" = "Karthus jungle isn't a good baseline." Good to know. The point is, if farm-oriented junglers have viability right now, there's potential for feral flare as well, especially with the nerf to lizard elder. I'm not saying that it's going to become the next big thing in the LCS, but it definitely at least has interesting possibilities.
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On April 03 2014 08:41 GolemMadness wrote:
One of the biggest issues that I see is that feral flare gives no mana sustain. So for the few champions that this could be useful on, like Yi or Warwick, you basically have to permanently have blue or buy a chalice.
For mana junglers, I see the most potential with this item on Nocturne. With the attack speed and Noc's passive, you can probably just clear camps by autoing and it'll be reasonably fast.
This needs to be tested, of course.
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On April 03 2014 09:15 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2014 08:58 Diamond wrote:
I didn't say it's unusable, I said it's a not a good baseline.
I'm sure all the jungle Karthus mains will be thrilled with Feral Flare since it's the item being discussed. "there is a reason you NEVER see jungle Karthus at high level" + "Remind me the last jungle karthus seen in a serious pro match?" = "Karthus jungle isn't a good baseline." Good to know. The point is, if farm-oriented junglers have viability right now, there's potential for feral flare as well, especially with the nerf to lizard elder. I'm not saying that it's going to become the next big thing in the LCS, but it definitely at least has interesting possibilities.
Yeah, it pretty much all hinges on how vulnerable master yi/trynd/etc are to counter jungling and how disadvantaged your lanes become when you don't prioritize ganking for them vs the benefits of the item. There's already tension there for level 6 gankers so this should be interesting.
Oh yeah, any of you guys thinking of changing up your runes? Given all the new free armor I'm not sure what to run except maybe armor per level.
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On April 03 2014 09:15 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2014 08:58 Diamond wrote:
I didn't say it's unusable, I said it's a not a good baseline.
I'm sure all the jungle Karthus mains will be thrilled with Feral Flare since it's the item being discussed. "there is a reason you NEVER see jungle Karthus at high level" + "Remind me the last jungle karthus seen in a serious pro match?" = "Karthus jungle isn't a good baseline." Good to know. The point is, if farm-oriented junglers have viability right now, there's potential for feral flare as well, especially with the nerf to lizard elder. I'm not saying that it's going to become the next big thing in the LCS, but it definitely at least has interesting possibilities.
Ok my bad, was messing around more or less, didn't mean it completely serious. Just not a fan of Wriggles and making fun of it at it's expense. Sorry.
Anyways Aether Wisp seems pretty awesome, I'm sort of excited for a low cost AP/MS item.
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On April 03 2014 09:23 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2014 09:15 GolemMadness wrote:On April 03 2014 08:58 Diamond wrote:
I didn't say it's unusable, I said it's a not a good baseline.
I'm sure all the jungle Karthus mains will be thrilled with Feral Flare since it's the item being discussed. "there is a reason you NEVER see jungle Karthus at high level" + "Remind me the last jungle karthus seen in a serious pro match?" = "Karthus jungle isn't a good baseline." Good to know. The point is, if farm-oriented junglers have viability right now, there's potential for feral flare as well, especially with the nerf to lizard elder. I'm not saying that it's going to become the next big thing in the LCS, but it definitely at least has interesting possibilities. Yeah, it pretty much all hinges on how vulnerable master yi/trynd/etc are to counter jungling and how disadvantaged your lanes become when you don't prioritize ganking for them vs the benefits of the item. There's already tension there for level 6 gankers so this should be interesting. Oh yeah, any of you guys thinking of changing up your runes? Given all the new free armor I'm not sure what to run except maybe armor per level.
Honestly I don't think rune pages will change that much. Maybe swap out armor yellows for scaling health or scaling armor, but everything else likely won't change.
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anyone else think this patch came way to fast after the other one. I much rather have large patches once ever 6 weeks then one patch ever other week
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EPT
