EPT[Patch 4.5] Rune Rework General Discussion - Page 116
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On April 22 2014 04:17 turdburgler wrote: euw ranked randomly disabled? Because EUW randomly lags? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 22 2014 03:58 Kupon3ss wrote: It's actually the other way around, LoL locks teams into 1-5 due to the way farm is distributed since champions can only efficiently farm one lane and jungle is worth less than a lane, so you end up in situations where its a direct interlocking cascading ordering of farm priority instead of a dynamically allocatable one. Plus the new jungle and support (gp5) items make it inefficient to switch. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On April 22 2014 04:17 turdburgler wrote: euw ranked randomly disabled? Some games were full disconnects/150+ ping  | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On April 22 2014 03:52 canikizu wrote: Yeah, it's a huge thing in LoL, but in competitive scene only, and in competitive scene, carry jungler is almost nonexistent. If you're posting on TL, you should realize that the paradigm here is to only care about the competitive scene (and really, only care about it at the highest level). Even with Riot's babying and obstinance that SoloQ should be a reflection of competitive play, the state of competitive play in S4 is incredibly removed from soloQ, which is basically still in S2 but with new items. However, carry jungling at the competitive level is almost nonexistent almost exclusively because of Riot's attempts to make it viable. The "farm jungle to get stronger" items were added precisely to increase this viability, but are fundamentally unworkable because of the nature of lane vs jungle farm (lanes can build up while jungle camps don't gain value for sitting). Instead, it makes having flexible farming positions actually more untenable, because your jungler has to blow a bunch of gold into farming items that doesn't help them farm stacked lanes, and you end up with a forced dichotomy between lane and jungle that results in stuff like Feral Flare. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On April 22 2014 03:54 Kupon3ss wrote: One example of the crude beginnings of this is C9's midgame farm allocation yesterday, where Hai, typically on assassins, would move and roam around midgame to create space and look for picks once he's reached a certain power level, at which point the jungler or support actually takes and farms mid. You actually had a bunch of this going on during late s2, as you mentioned especially when assassins where popular why you had junglers with weakers ganks (Udyr, Shyvana, etc.) but who beneficied a lot from farm. However, with the jungle changes in s3 and s4, it's not as interesting for you to farm lanes since it makes you "waste stacks", or at least it seems to be perceived that way (I'll still farm a 8+ minion wave over the wraith camp), and the meta changes discourage assassins (especially right now, with the exhaust and heal buffs) or aggressive picks in general (since you won't get kills in lane, better shove passively, zzz). | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
In terms of competitive balance, having farm priorities and ward bitch supports and things like that is perfectly fine. I mean there were balance issues with the game in season 2 obviously, but I don't think the support/jungle positions being useless were among them. They were just different. The reason why they're increasing jungle and support income has absolutely nothing to do with balance or competitive play. In fact, it's caused balance problems while they're working all the kinks out, I think we're all aware of this and it's caused some legitimate criticism. The reason why they're doing it is because a ward bitch support isn't as fun a thing to play for the majority of players. Not all, but a majority. Have you ever played a bronze 5 game? Do you know how many people there in seasons 2 and 3 refused to support, or said support and then played Nidalee or someshit with a dorans ring and took CS? Do you know how much toxicity that shit caused in champ select and in games? That is what they are trying to combat with the farm changes, not top level game balance. Personally, this used to be a regular problem in my games in season 2 and now almost never happens anymore. When people go into a game they have this fantasy in their heads about this is what I want to happen in the game. That includes things like getting to a full build, making awesome plays, etc. Walking around never buying items and warding everything is rarely part of that fantasy. And again, this is not true for everyone (I really like being a ward bitch, I think it's fun), but for the majority of players it's just not as enjoyable as playing a role that gets lots of gold and items. In this situation they've made a decision that is actually bad for balance in the short term, in order to fix a problem with the entertainment value of the game that people are playing. I'm sure they understood that short term it would cause balance problems and they would have to fix them, but long term they will not only hopefully be fixed, but the game will be more fun for the majority of players and more popular as a result. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On April 22 2014 05:13 Ketara wrote: support should be fun Do the two have to be mutually exclusive? I think you can make supports more impactful than being ward bitches without artificial mechanics like "can't have more than 3 wards" and "gets access to this random gold that no one else has" | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Edit: wrt to your last post, well, give items that don't cost much but have impact, and aren't desirable in terms of slot-efficiency so farmers won't buy them. In that sense, I dislike the 200 gold increase they slapped on every gold generation item because it didn't change their actives or mechanics, just more stats slapped on the stick (mp5 for Talisman, HP and less hp5 for Face, etc.). Just make inefficient items, because they don't give much stats, but still a bunch for what they cost, slap a cool active on top of it, and have supports buy it. No need to give them triple the gold to buy deathcap, crucible is a reasonable pricing (the chalice part is steep actually, especially early game where armour and HP are better than MR, even more so in the duo lane) and 2k for Talisman or Face was pretty nice too. If Zhonya was like Seeker's + 500 gold with stats priced accordingly you could see Fiddle (RIP) or Morgana support go for it. Of course considering the active it'd also be bought by a fuckton of champions, but that's just an example. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
As has been pointed out since 3.14, the Boots+Sightstone wardbitch support only really emerged in the wake of the Aegis/Locket nerf that left no suitable low-cost, high-effectiveness, low slot-efficiency team utility items in the itemization pool (prior to it's nerf, Shurelya's Reverie also fit this description). At the time of the Locket nerf, apologists claimed that this would allow more of the underused support items to see play, but the reality was that none of them did because they all sucked and were simply not good enough to be worth buying. So Riot's solution was essentially to FORCE you to buy them by converting them into the support income items, rather than making the items better. High-impact low-gold support itemization isn't a hypothetical because before Riot gutted Aegis and Locket (and Shurelya's before them) it ACTUALLY EXISTED. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
The problem with creating low cost, low slot efficiency items for low gold supports to buy is these items aren't as cool as big 3k gold items, so the people playing support will still be like "Well if I had 20k gold I could do this build" that they never actually get to do in a real game, and ultimately won't have as much fun because of it. Both those suggestions would work for game balance at the top level, but it's a decision that's not about game balance. It's a decision about enjoyment value of the game for the majority of the players. It's a more difficult way to do things and the fact that it's causing balance problems is expected, but assuming that said balance problems can be fixed, long term it actually creates a better game for everyone. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
So long as the game promotes the appropriate gameplay at a high level, some semblance of it will trickle down. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On April 22 2014 05:35 Ketara wrote: The problem with changing farm priorities is you can't expect people in bronze 5 to do it without arguing with each other and making the overall enjoyment of the game worse. The deepest depths Bronze 5 might be a special cesspool, where the players legitimately believe they know everything about the game, but for the most part players just take whatever any pro or Riot says as the True Word. You could literally make only some nominal changes to items so players see the Patch Notes and a Riot Comment about why it was done and don't challenge it at all. "We added a item that grants you a Suppression active but it takes 3 item slots. We see supports buying this item and because its really good, supports should be receiving enough solo lane farm to pick this up" | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
Moving forward, we are crafting a clearer policy around 3rd party addons. It is not quite ready for prime-time roll out yet, but will be in the very near future. To give you some insight on the direction we are headed though (and to solicit your feedback) this is the direction we are heading. (Please note, this is a general idea of where we are headed, and NOT a verbatim example of the new policy.) "Programs that give you information you have already earned (such as visible timers) are ok. Programs that give you information you have not earned (such as enemy timers/timers in the fog of war), ones that make decisions for you, or take actions for you, are NOT ok." This is completely ridiculous. With this drafted policy I could write a program that tells me the cooldown remaining on enemies skills/summoners/items,(calculated from use time + what cdr they have + what skill rank) their skill ranks (calculated from ap/ad and damage the spell does to w/e, would have to click on them once per back), Whether or not they have mana for a full combo, etc. And it would be allowed by riot. I get the feeling they are getting pressured by Curse to allow Curse voice, but it just opens a box that should remain closed. This would give a massive advantage, and its all "information that you have earned" that is used to calculate these things. | ||
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