EPT[Patch 4.5] Rune Rework General Discussion - Page 115
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Guys only use for like two whole seasons was trucking guys in lane. Wukong also was a relatively strong laner in solo situations, but 1v2 dicked him hard. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
His only really weakness is that you could shove him into his tower hard. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On April 22 2014 03:38 TheYango wrote: I mean "carry" as in taking core position farm priority, Any of those heroes you described as "carry" junglers never passed higher than 3rd position farm priority. Again, farm priority is also a Dota concept. Other games don't use that concept. Games like LoL, Smite aren't even designed to support that idea. There's no camp pulling, no camp blocking. You can still give your laners jungle camp, but they will never ever get all the jungle camp. In dota, to optimize the team income you need to camp pull and save it for your position 1,2, but in LoL or Smite, the only way to optimize the gold income of the team is to farm the camp right when it comes out. You can't save the gold for your laners, the game is not designed that way. And it's not uncommon to see carry junglers have more farm than laners, especially in pub. People like Xj9, Meteos, Diamonprox, kstarwinged usually have higher creep farm and gold income than laners. The jungle camps have like 10 creep/minute, which is the same as 2 creep wave. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=46621008#post46621008 | ||
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Gahlo
United States35164 Posts
On April 22 2014 03:44 iCanada wrote: That's not true, Wukongs kit allowed for him to be a tricky sob that only ever picked winning fights. You could outplay anyone on monkey, and even so not many champs scales with him. His only really weakness is that you could shove him into his tower hard. Yes it is. Wukong's laning hits a major dip from level 3-5. Often times if you screw up your level 2 timing you're fucked in lane. On April 22 2014 03:48 Diamond wrote: So anyone been using Curse Voice. Riot seems to have okay'd it, and I guess if it's legit I might as well get sick timers. Curious how it is for people, have never even seen it used before. http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=46621008#post46621008 I hate anything that tracks timers for people. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On April 22 2014 03:48 canikizu wrote: Again, farm priority is also a Dota concept. Other games don't use that concept. Games like LoL, Smite aren't even designed to support that idea. There's no camp pulling, no camp blocking. You can still give your laners jungle camp, but they will never ever get all the jungle camp. In dota, to optimize the income you need to camp pull and save it for your position 1,2, but in LoL or Smite, the only way to optimize the gold income of the team is to farm the camp right when it comes out. Actually farm priority is a pretty huge thing in LoL. Just beause you don't take notice of it doesn't mean it's there. Take note of who goes to farm the pushed up lanes on a team and that will tell you the farm priority. This is even more obvious in teams like CLG S3 where Doublelift would always farm a pushed up lane regardless of the situation. Multiplicative scaling makes farm priority a thing | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 22 2014 03:48 canikizu wrote: Again, farm priority is also a Dota concept. Other games don't use that concept. Games like LoL, Smite aren't even designed to support that idea. Multiplicative scaling is FUNDAMENTALLY designed to support that idea. So long as multiple items on a single hero have multiplicative effectiveness compared to single items on separate heroes, farm priority and concentrated farm is a reality of the game. On April 22 2014 03:48 canikizu wrote: And it's not uncommon to see carry junglers have more farm than laners, especially in pub. People like Xj9, Meteos, Diamonprox, kstarwinged usually have higher creep farm and gold income than laners. The jungle camps have like 10 creep/minute, which is the same as 2 creep wave. People get off-laners that would get virtually zero farm in a competitive game farmed to 6 items in DotA pubs as well. The individual nature of pub games makes this so--it has nothing to do with how the game is played competitively. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On April 22 2014 03:50 Numy wrote: Actually farm priority is a pretty huge thing in LoL. Just beause you don't take notice of it doesn't mean it's there. Take note of who goes to farm the pushed up lanes on a team and that will tell you the farm priority. This is even more obvious in teams like CLG S3 where Doublelift would always farm a pushed up lane regardless of the situation. Multiplicative scaling makes farm priority a thing Yeah, it's a huge thing in LoL, but in competitive scene only, and in competitive scene, carry jungler is almost nonexistent. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Easier HP itemisation (better EHP early), super sustain starts, manaless laners, etc. dicked them hard. Now people played them in soloQ because they saw them in pro play. Pantheon isn't safe, so even in the match-ups he wins he's not that good a pick. Most top laners don't care because they don't need to win lane, just not to let him snowball, then outscale him (Renek's teamfighting is stronger since he can be a frontliner), and it's awkward to have them as midlaners (and you've got stronger than them). 1v2 screws them over pretty hard. Jungle? They're actually pretty fast now, thanks to the mana sustain from Butcher, and they can embrace their role of gankers/roamers. | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
On April 22 2014 03:48 canikizu wrote: Again, farm priority is also a Dota concept. Other games don't use that concept. Games like LoL, Smite aren't even designed to support that idea. There's no camp pulling, no camp blocking. You can still give your laners jungle camp, but they will never ever get all the jungle camp. In dota, to optimize the team income you need to camp pull and save it for your position 1,2, but in LoL or Smite, the only way to optimize the gold income of the team is to farm the camp right when it comes out. You can't save the gold for your laners, the game is not designed that way. And it's not uncommon to see carry junglers have more farm than laners, especially in pub. People like Xj9, Meteos, Diamonprox, kstarwinged usually have higher creep farm and gold income than laners. LoL definitely uses farm priority as a concept, the whole meta is build on a static farm priority. What Yango is suggestion is dynamic farm priority allocation that's based off of non-homogeneous power scaling, which doesn't exist solidly in lol but has certain aspects reflected in lol. For example, feral flare is inherently an item that gives you a huge power spike upon hitting a certain point of farm, at which point a champion's ability vastly increases. What he's suggesting is that if the game had more champions/items that functioned similarily one would be able to move farm around instead of a constant allocation. This eventually leads to more dynamic gameplay and diverse champion pools. One example of the crude beginnings of this is C9's midgame farm allocation yesterday, where Hai, typically on assassins, would move and roam around midgame to create space and look for picks once he's reached a certain power level, at which point the jungler or support actually takes and farms mid. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On April 22 2014 03:51 TheYango wrote: Multiplicative scaling is FUNDAMENTALLY designed to support that idea. So long as multiple items on a single hero have multiplicative effectiveness compared to single items on separate heroes, farm priority and concentrated farm is a reality of the game. I worded it wrong. Farm priority is always relevant, but not the way Dota is. In dota, the gap between position 3 and 4,5 is huge because the game is designed that way. On the other hand, games like LoL and Smite are designed to make that gap closer, so it's not uncommon to see the position 4 surpass the 3, or position 3 and 4 are interchangeable. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 22 2014 03:56 canikizu wrote: In dota, the gap between position 3 and 4,5 is huge because the game is designed that way. That has depended very heavily on the version and the playstyles of the time. For example, in 6.78, where off-lane play was basically suicidal, and support play was very farm-focused, the difference in farm priority between the 3rd and 4th position hero was in many cases extremely small, if not non-existent. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35164 Posts
-TLLOLGD | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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