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On April 22 2014 01:45 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 01:41 TheYango wrote:On April 22 2014 01:28 Ghost-z wrote:On April 22 2014 01:18 wei2coolman wrote:On April 22 2014 01:05 Ghost-z wrote:
It's not that hard to make an anti-snowball item with reverse scaling the stronger a champion gets. Rework Atma's Impaler into this.
Blade of the Wandering:
Generates stacks while out of combat. (max 100)
Deal magic damage on-hit equal to the current number of stacks. Loses 10 stacks per attack.
Basically the longer you can stay in the fight and hit people the less damage it does. Basically half the damage is dealt in the first 3 attacks (270 damage) so staying alive long enough to use all 10 procs (550 damage) doesn't mean you get a free ace. The proc deals magic damage so carries and assassins won't scale with it and all you need to do is put some defensive steroids on the item and adjust costs. Great for tanks and fighters who don't want life steal. Of course this item means you must nerf Irelia. That would be so anti fun. Buy item, gets less effective. It recharges within a short time between each fight. Or maybe make it gain stacks while moving like Yasuo's passive. So it charges while you chase/kite between autos? Is that more fun? So, Static Shiv. pretty much lol, seems like a pretty awful item to be honest, once you expend the stacks its basically doing nothing, might be pretty good on warwick i guess or yasuo who can proc multiple stacks with his q
So give the proc a minimum damage like 30 or whatever. I'm just looking to see if you guys think this item could help melee fighters/carries without breaking the game. The whole idea here is to make an item that is more cost efficient when you are behind than when you are ahead. Do you see any abuse cases?
Statik Shiv doesn't have any diminishing returns when you get ahead and scales well with AD carries so it doesn't quite fit what I'm trying to theory craft here. I don't care what Riot would or wouldn't do, just if it's possible to even create such an item that would allow melee characters the ability to deal damage when behind without letting them snowball.
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Basically, such an item is a burst item that requires you to auto attack.
Items and abilities that scale with % current HP have a similar mechanic. The real issue is that this item would need a ton of upfront burst to be relevant, and burst is typically (4.5 excluded) much stronger than sustained damage.
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I'm playing Lulu. I'm dead. My ult is on cd. But I didn't receive the bonus HP.
It's Eve's ult all over again zzz.
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On April 22 2014 02:33 cLutZ wrote:
Basically, such an item is a burst item that requires you to auto attack.
Items and abilities that scale with % current HP have a similar mechanic. The real issue is that this item would need a ton of upfront burst to be relevant, and burst is typically (4.5 excluded) much stronger than sustained damage.
Thanks, you are correct. I hadn't noticed the similarity of the concept with Botrk.
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Erik ''Tabzz'' van Helvert (on facebook)
Seems to be discussion going on about junglers/supports being able to carry and their roles in LoL. My two cents:
I think 5 high-gold heroes is bad game design for a MOBA. There should be 3 strong heroes (''carries'') and 2 supports in the ideal MOBA game. There are only 3 lanes so 3 players getting big income, and that makes it balanced. Jungle the ganking role that has a bit of supplementary gold/xp in the woods. Support is the role that secures your carry farm. If you give 5 players big income, carry roles are gone. The word ''carry'' loses its meaning when all players on your team have lots of strength / gold. When everyones a carry, nobody is.
Riot has been diminishing snowballing and reducing jungler ganking control and in return giving them lots of income which stalls games like crazy and is no fun. Lower FirstBlood gold, higher XP when behind, trinkets, gold generation items, tower changes, nerfing the assassins and buffing heal and exhaust all contributed to this.
S2 and S3 actually did the 3 strong heroes concept very well with support / ganking control junglers and wardbitch supports. I think it was the best time the game has ever had. S4 feels like a very big step backwards in both a solo queue and competitive aspect.
Thanks for reading.
Thoughts ?
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On April 22 2014 02:57 -Zoda- wrote:Erik ''Tabzz'' van Helvert (on facebook) Show nested quote +
Seems to be discussion going on about junglers/supports being able to carry and their roles in LoL. My two cents:
I think 5 high-gold heroes is bad game design for a MOBA. There should be 3 strong heroes (''carries'') and 2 supports in the ideal MOBA game. There are only 3 lanes so 3 players getting big income, and that makes it balanced. Jungle the ganking role that has a bit of supplementary gold/xp in the woods. Support is the role that secures your carry farm. If you give 5 players big income, carry roles are gone. The word ''carry'' loses its meaning when all players on your team have lots of strength / gold. When everyones a carry, nobody is.
Riot has been diminishing snowballing and reducing jungler ganking control and in return giving them lots of income which stalls games like crazy and is no fun. Lower FirstBlood gold, higher XP when behind, trinkets, gold generation items, tower changes, nerfing the assassins and buffing heal and exhaust all contributed to this.
S2 and S3 actually did the 3 strong heroes concept very well with support / ganking control junglers and wardbitch supports. I think it was the best time the game has ever had. S4 feels like a very big step backwards in both a solo queue and competitive aspect.
Thanks for reading.
Thoughts ?
He's right except for the fact that S2-S3 had the support role absolutely boring to play and being a "wardbitch" should never be the idea. Jungle / support should be able to have a high impact on the game without being smothered in gold. Which basically means being able to create plays and secure kills. (I.E High-gank potential, CC bots.)
An annie without AP is still something you run from. S4 support annie just roflstomps their adc.
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United States47024 Posts
That's sort of the issue with how Riot approached support design in S4--rather than designing support kits/itemization around low gold, their approach to "fixing" the problem was to just throw gold at supports.
I'm pretty sure GD was already discussing this with patch 3.14.
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I think 3 carry 2 support is the natural progression of how map layouts lend to farm priorities work out, regardless of other aspects in game. S4, jungler and support still receive less gold than their laner counterpart. Yes s4 closed the gold income gap, and due to the midgame kit scaling of bruisers and the weakness of ADC's, has made junglers and supports much more impactful, but they're still not carry's. So yes. S4 blows.
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Easily solved by removing all the random free gold and instead encouraging better gold distribution (so it doesn't revert to wardbitching) by having high cost-efficiency low slot-efficiency items so it doesn't end up that everyone buys one.
But Riot seems to be very against making items that don't build into any other items (i.e. adding Seeker's for cloth-5 whining mids, so much so that now people are complaining you can't go cloth and build it into randuins).
On April 22 2014 03:03 TheYango wrote:
That's sort of the issue with how Riot approached support design in S4--rather than designing support kits/itemization around low gold, their approach to "fixing" the problem was to just throw gold at supports.
I'm pretty sure GD was already discussing this with patch 3.14.
yea prty mch #lomo
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United States47024 Posts
Fundamentally, multiplicative stat scaling causes teams to gravitate toward the most concentrated farm distribution that does not sacrifice overall farming efficiency (e.g. having only one farmer sacrifices efficiency due to the inability to farm the entire map fluidly).
Support and jungle income sources don't change the gold allocation priority, they just throw a bunch of gold at those roles that is inaccessible to the other roles and therefore does not interact with how farm priority concerns the rest of the gold on the map.
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I mean right now, even with all the free gold, you end up breaking into freezing lanes to funnel farm onto your high priority targets still. Except it's done so in a very degenerate manner and more than anything defeats the purpose of "laning" that Riot keeps espousing as the gold standard of spectator experience.
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On April 22 2014 03:03 TheYango wrote:
That's sort of the issue with how Riot approached support design in S4--rather than designing support kits/itemization around low gold, their approach to "fixing" the problem was to just throw gold at supports.
I'm pretty sure GD was already discussing this with patch 3.14.
Exactly and it was the absolute wrong way to go about it. Item actives like targons, coin, spellthiefs, crucibles, teamwide auras like locket, old-wota are the way to go about support itemisation (numbers on current excluded). A support should be buying low-cost items with actives / passives that benefit the team but are hugely inefficient cost/number-wise and are not purchased by other lanes because they have a high gold income.
How to do that correctly is anyones guess, but riot giving it a good go would be better then the "gold, gold for everybody!" approach that is today. Supports literally go goldgen item/sightstone into carry items of their type. As much as i love roflstomping people with 20 minute voidstaff/frostfang/magic pen boots annie, its the mid-lanes job to be doing that.
Jungles are a bit of a weirder case really. But i think given equal skill they should be behind a lane-carries strength and unable to win an even 1v1, however much stronger at creating opportunities FOR their carries. As it stands now a shyvanna will walk out of the jungle at 15 minutes and decimate people solo. That shouldn't really be happening given equal play.
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Idk what supports you guys have, at the end of long games I have 4-5 actives and boots.
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United States47024 Posts
Implementing jungle as a place to put a carry should be something that is done with the fact that most "carry" farm in a game comes post-laning phase. Farming a jungle into a core role should involve allocation of lane farm--which the S3/S4 jungle items actually make incredibly problematic because there's no way to make the reverse transition smoothly.
The ideal scenario for a jungle "carry" is where you have a jungler that is a weak laner but is powerful with farm, and, say, a top laner who is a strong laner but transitions into a more defensive/supportive role in lategame fights, and once laning breaks down and you move into the jungler getting lane farm and transitioning into a higher farm priority. However, the way S3/S4 jungle items work, this fundamentally entails a loss in farming efficiency because the top laner can't farm jungle as efficiently, the jungler is wasting the jungling passives on his jungle items, and nobody is getting the free gold.
The problem was never laners taking jungle farm the way Riot envisioned it, it was finding a way to make the farm priority transition between the jungler and a laner after laning phase seamless and worthwhile--and by fixing what they falsely considered the problem, Riot actually ended up making that transition even harder and less worthwhile.
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hi5
sightstone gp5 boots2 crucible locket randuins
compare that to s3
boot1 sightstone
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On April 22 2014 03:03 TheYango wrote:
That's sort of the issue with how Riot approached support design in S4--rather than designing support kits/itemization around low gold, their approach to "fixing" the problem was to just throw gold at supports.
I'm pretty sure GD was already discussing this with patch 3.14.
Since toward the end of s3, when Riot gifted us these huge feedback threads with most of the people (far from being support mains or anything mind you) whining about not getting to farm/have gold as a support and Riot only listening to them, straight-up ignoring the minority saying "People don't want gold, they want impact and currently you need gold for this. Create impactful itemisation that doesn't cost much, make their stats/scaling undesirable for carries who want efficiency, and let supports operate at low gold".
I'm still salty about this, that was spitting in people's faces. "We want to catter to the less informed player base by addressing their whining rather than what causes it, it's PR yo."
On April 22 2014 03:18 TheYango wrote:
The ideal scenario for a jungle "carry" is where you have a jungler that is a weak laner but is powerful with farm, and, say, a top laner who is a strong laner but transitions into a more defensive/supportive role in lategame fights, and once laning breaks down and you move into the jungler getting lane farm and transitioning into a higher farm priority. However, the way S3/S4 jungle items work, this fundamentally entails a loss in farming efficiency because the top laner can't farm jungle as efficiently, the jungler is wasting the jungling passives on his jungle items, and nobody is getting the free gold.
The problem was never laners taking jungle farm the way Riot envisioned it, it was finding a way to make the farm priority transition between the jungler and a laner after laning phase seamless and worthwhile--and by fixing what they falsely considered the problem, Riot actually ended up making that transition even harder and less worthwhile.
That's pretty much what Pantheon and Wukong did in the jungle (dodge laning and get the gold to use your great scaling, although in their case their damage scales really well but their kits not necessarily), and Riot viewed it as bad because of the whole "they have weaknesses, don't let them dodge those".
On a basic level I agree with that view, problem is rather than tweak stuff (eg. what in the current jungle let champions circumvent their weaknesses) they wanted to attack the champions themselves in general.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean, in the scenario I described, you still need to make that transition from jungling into farming lanes, so there's still a weakness your team has to handle.
The way the S4 jungle works, it gives free gold to you directly rather than needing to make the jungle->lane transition to move up on farm priority, which is what causes those champs to be able to "dodge" their weakness.
The key point of the jungling carry should be the transition out of jungling as their mode of farm to taking lane farm/split-pushing/etc. Riot instead sees the jungling carry as one who basically gets all his farm from the jungle for the entirety of the game.
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On April 22 2014 03:18 TheYango wrote:
Implementing jungle as a place to put a carry should be something that is done with the fact that most "carry" farm in a game comes post-laning phase. Farming a jungle into a core role should involve allocation of lane farm--which the S3/S4 jungle items actually make incredibly problematic because there's no way to make the reverse transition smoothly.
The ideal scenario for a jungle "carry" is where you have a jungler that is a weak laner but is powerful with farm, and, say, a top laner who is a strong laner but transitions into a more defensive/supportive role in lategame fights, and once laning breaks down and you move into the jungler getting lane farm and transitioning into a higher farm priority. However, the way S3/S4 jungle items work, this fundamentally entails a loss in farming efficiency because the top laner can't farm jungle as efficiently, the jungler is wasting the jungling passives on his jungle items, and nobody is getting the free gold.
The problem was never laners taking jungle farm the way Riot envisioned it, it was finding a way to make the farm priority transition between the jungler and a laner after laning phase seamless and worthwhile--and by fixing what they falsely considered the problem, Riot actually ended up making that transition even harder and less worthwhile.
That is not the ideal scenario of jungle carry, that's the Dota scenario of jungle carry. Just because a game tries to diverse from another game doesn't make that game wrong and the other one is right. Carry junglers start to exist in a lot of MOBA, such as LoL, Smite, Dawngate or even Infinite Crisis. The idea of a weak-laning jungler has not been existed for a long time, champions like Udyr, Voli, even Vi, Lee, never have bad laning phrase. Junglers in LoL are those "fast-gap-close-gank-pressure-blahblah" type.
The difference between S3 and S4 right now is in S3, carry jungler can carry from getting kills from gank, and S4 is carry from farming the jungle. Carry junglers in pub has always been existed. If we are talking about competitive scene, then I don't see what's wrong right now, you barely see carry junglers in competitive scene.
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EPT
