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Baa?21248 Posts
On January 25 2014 02:21 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 02:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 25 2014 01:59 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 25 2014 01:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 25 2014 01:34 cLutZ wrote:On January 25 2014 01:20 Gorsameth wrote:
Roccat has been a professional payed team for less then 2 weeks. Give them some time lol. Why are people expecting new teams to be god tier right away. Because that is actually what has historically happened in LOL? C9 Looked awesome, and were, Alternate started hot, and got worse, Bjergson was a dominant midlaner that elevated his team instantly when he was allowed to play, SKT-JudgmentDay Got 3rd place in OGN Spring, their first real try as a team, etc. Even before that, teams like WE, Blaze, and Frost came in and clowned the scene instantly. Conversely, Coast and VES sucked all summer, MRN and COL were consistently bad and never improved, Giants were bad, Dragonborns were bad, Jin Air is always bad. Like, the best examples for the "teams that grow" would be Vulcan or Lemondogs, but they evolved into strong regular season teams that lost when paired against strong teams in the highly competitive environments. They don't look that great now anyways, hue hue. This is an incredibly reductionist history. Teams don't magically become god-tier by themselves (and I'm sure Yango has much more to say on this...), and of these teams whose histories I've followed, none followed this narrative - C9, SKT, WE, Blaze, and Frost among others all had a lot of build-up before they become dominant. Just because you didn't personally follow them during the build-up doesn't mean that period wasn't there. What? If you want to talk seriously, C9 did come out of no where. Gambit made small splashes as Empire and did surprise everyone as Moscow 5 at Kiev. C9 hardly came out of nowhere, considering how the core of their line-up how has been around since early-mid 2012 under Orbit with Hai and Lemonnation. They were, by all accounts, an amateur team without much to show until they were acquired by Quantic, which was obviously a bigger name, and under which they assembled their current roster in mid 2013. Even under Quantic, they failed to qualify for LCS, and had to go another split before they made it in and began their dominance. None of their players came out of nowhere, the team has a distinct history that can be traced back all the way to 2012, and many people correctly predicted C9's strength. M5 broke into the world stage in a different era, when it was much more difficult to get information about the scene in different countries. But even so, they were hardly unknown - their stint as empire was the build-up to them dominating the world as M5, and they definitely were not a nobody team that came out and destroyed everyone. People who did follow the scene knew their names and knew they were a solid squad. Hell they even had a play named after them when they were still Empire. That's pretty much my definition of "out of nowhere". You have this team that literally placed last in two offline tournaments they attended. On paper, they had more talent as Quantic than they did as Cloud 9 (Hai moved from Jungle to Mid, Meteos no one even heard of unless you were playing fun police normals, Sneaky is not even a sidegrade to WildTurtle, etc). Yet you're telling me people correctly predicted that this C9 team would have come out in Summer Split and dominated NA? I get you think very little of NA LCS but to go from 8th out of 8 teams at MLGs to No. 1 in NA LCS, that's is my definition of "out of nowhere".
I want to say it was (Locodoco?) among other pros who correctly identified Quantic as the strongest NA squad very early in their formation, due precisely to their first-hand knowledge of their history.
My point is that -every- team starts off with mediocre to poor results. I think we're actually making a similar point...we just have different interpretations of "out of nowhere?" Teams will start off with poor/average results, and then slowly improve to world-class. Sure there are periods of rapid improvement, but a team does not go overnight from being 8th place to No. 1 NA LCS - there was a very long time period and a lot of work involved in that process. It is an incremental process that we can trace, and all the easier now with the increased accessibility of tournament histories and data. I know we prize genius and talent and potential, but you need to work to change that into actual results.
I don't think any team can come into a tournament and win, or even place very highly, fresh off their formation, outside of the early days of a scene when everyone is fresh so there has to be a fresh winner. SKT is literally the only exception, and Korea has a different organizational structure so that's a bit of a different story.
This has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion of NA LCS, it's an observation that holds true across all regions. Hell the implications of what I'm trying to say includes a compliment to C9 for working hard and deserving where they are now.
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Ok I like to think I know more than average about matchmaking but I could use some help understanding how this happened on my smurf. I'm not some Diamond player, I'm a gold player AT BEST, so I don't think I could have possibly got my MMR to Plat/Diamond level in 99 wins (99-79 for the record). Idk just confused, was a really unfun game.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kO6opWV.png)
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On January 25 2014 02:28 Diamond wrote:Ok I like to think I know more than average about matchmaking but I could use some help understanding how this happened on my smurf. I'm not some Diamond player, I'm a gold player AT BEST, so I don't think I could have possibly got my MMR to Plat/Diamond level in 99 wins (99-79 for the record). Idk just confused, was a really unfun game.
Meh its normals, if ranked then its worth bringing up
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United States37500 Posts
On January 25 2014 02:28 Diamond wrote:Ok I like to think I know more than average about matchmaking but I could use some help understanding how this happened on my smurf. I'm not some Diamond player, I'm a gold player AT BEST, so I don't think I could have possibly got my MMR to Plat/Diamond level in 99 wins (99-79 for the record). Idk just confused, was a really unfun game.
TL;DR: you ran into some fun police folks in normal queue. It happens. Arczer is probably best Syndra NA.
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wait that's a lot of normal wins nevermind
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so whats best to max first on support blitz? i ask because i always maxed Q but yesterday on soaz stream i saw him maxing E first and im not sure now
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On January 25 2014 02:21 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 02:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 25 2014 01:59 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 25 2014 01:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 25 2014 01:34 cLutZ wrote:On January 25 2014 01:20 Gorsameth wrote:
Roccat has been a professional payed team for less then 2 weeks. Give them some time lol. Why are people expecting new teams to be god tier right away. Because that is actually what has historically happened in LOL? C9 Looked awesome, and were, Alternate started hot, and got worse, Bjergson was a dominant midlaner that elevated his team instantly when he was allowed to play, SKT-JudgmentDay Got 3rd place in OGN Spring, their first real try as a team, etc. Even before that, teams like WE, Blaze, and Frost came in and clowned the scene instantly. Conversely, Coast and VES sucked all summer, MRN and COL were consistently bad and never improved, Giants were bad, Dragonborns were bad, Jin Air is always bad. Like, the best examples for the "teams that grow" would be Vulcan or Lemondogs, but they evolved into strong regular season teams that lost when paired against strong teams in the highly competitive environments. They don't look that great now anyways, hue hue. This is an incredibly reductionist history. Teams don't magically become god-tier by themselves (and I'm sure Yango has much more to say on this...), and of these teams whose histories I've followed, none followed this narrative - C9, SKT, WE, Blaze, and Frost among others all had a lot of build-up before they become dominant. Just because you didn't personally follow them during the build-up doesn't mean that period wasn't there. What? If you want to talk seriously, C9 did come out of no where. Gambit made small splashes as Empire and did surprise everyone as Moscow 5 at Kiev. C9 hardly came out of nowhere, considering how the core of their line-up how has been around since early-mid 2012 under Orbit with Hai and Lemonnation. They were, by all accounts, an amateur team without much to show until they were acquired by Quantic, which was obviously a bigger name, and under which they assembled their current roster in mid 2013. Even under Quantic, they failed to qualify for LCS, and had to go another split before they made it in and began their dominance. None of their players came out of nowhere, the team has a distinct history that can be traced back all the way to 2012, and many people correctly predicted C9's strength. M5 broke into the world stage in a different era, when it was much more difficult to get information about the scene in different countries. But even so, they were hardly unknown - their stint as empire was the build-up to them dominating the world as M5, and they definitely were not a nobody team that came out and destroyed everyone. People who did follow the scene knew their names and knew they were a solid squad. Hell they even had a play named after them when they were still Empire. That's pretty much my definition of "out of nowhere". You have this team that literally placed last in two offline tournaments they attended. On paper, they had more talent as Quantic than they did as Cloud 9 (Hai moved from Jungle to Mid, Meteos no one even heard of unless you were playing fun police normals, Sneaky is not even a sidegrade to WildTurtle, etc). Yet you're telling me people correctly predicted that this C9 team would have come out in Summer Split and dominated NA? I get you think very little of NA LCS but to go from 8th out of 8 teams at MLGs to No. 1 in NA LCS, that's is my definition of "out of nowhere".
I think you're on the wrong track here Neo. CSheep was specifically reacting to a poster "discrediting" (if you will) a team that has been formed for two weeks and then using C9 as the very FIRST example of a team that "came from nowhere." However, since C9 has existed for a LOT longer then two weeks, the post isn't valid.
I understand what you're saying about them "coming from nowhere." But, they were indeed a team that competed in the TSM invitationals before the LCS even started. So to call them a new team would be a horrible misnomer.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
Well finally got around to finishing my placements, from plat V to gold III. I'm pretty okay with this my top lane needs lots of work going back to gold will do me some good
Does anyone have any advice for rango vs renekton match up, I just get dumpstered by renekton all the time I really have no idea what I'm doing there
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That "team" never competed in those invitationals. Some of the players did. But when you pick up 3 new talented players and then say "See, look at how a team can improve" that is complete horseshit. Particularly, because people were saying that I was judging Roccat too early and basically saying that they "need time to gel". I was merely pointing out that the historical evidence does not contain examples of teams that looked fairly normal (In Roccat's case that is because they have average lanes and hyperconservative shotcalling) that slowly ascended. That is not the model.
The model is a model of rapid improvement, usually stemming from an erratic lineup (Probably young and new to the scene). Or the model is to change your lineup, which is cheating if you are defending a team by saying "they need time".
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On January 25 2014 02:42 Fusilero wrote:
Well finally got around to finishing my placements, from plat V to gold III. I'm pretty okay with this my top lane needs lots of work going back to gold will do me some good
What the fuck is this reasonable attitude? Aren't you supposed to be pitching a fit about how they "took mah elo"?
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United States15536 Posts
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that's not an unreasonable drop..
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On January 25 2014 02:47 TooL wrote:
that's not an unreasonable drop..
I should be in bronze lol, officially I went 3/2 but in reality it was 3/7. But 5 of those were loss forgiven so in spite of playing like utter trash and not because of lag I got let off.
Ty based rito servers
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On January 25 2014 02:49 Fusilero wrote:I should be in bronze lol, officially I went 3/2 but in reality it was 3/7. But 5 of those were loss forgiven so in spite of playing like utter trash and not because of lag I got let off. Ty based rito servers
EUW to the rescue.
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Don't forget about Coast, or formerly known as Monomaniac, when they came out of nowhere in ipl4, and stomped a lot of team, and quickly solidified themselves as one of the top NA teams.
good guy asmo, links directly to thread, instead of just reddit only.
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On January 24 2014 23:39 glzElectromaster wrote:
Just finished the Opening Party of E-Sports Square in Akihabara (Japan). Showmatch between Detonation FM (IEM rep from Japan) and CJ Entus. They used the Frost line up but they swapped out mid and jungler and used Ambition and Daydream.
Obviously it was a stomp but the bot lane for Detonation got some 2v2 kills on Space and Madlife. (Lucian/Thresh vs Ezreal/Blitzcrank, CJ playing the latter duo)
It was really only a stomp because Daydream got big through getting a early lead by killing Vi (as Khazix) at lvl 3? and Shy bullied Yasuo in top lane as Renekton.
I have some pictures from the venue but idk if they are any good. The CJ team and most of Detonation participated online.
I remember Det.FMs botlane being really good, Anelace had a lot of sick plays as Nami in S3.
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I was sort of bummed about dropping Gold V to Silver III (even though I deserved it), then in my like 2nd game someone was in there that had dropped from Diamond 3 to Silver V.
I feel much better about it now.
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On January 25 2014 02:35 kongoline wrote:
so whats best to max first on support blitz? i ask because i always maxed Q but yesterday on soaz stream i saw him maxing E first and im not sure now
Q first in lane would make the most sense, since it gives you higher burst potential. Skilling E first will reduce its cooldown, but not give you more damage. Debating W or E max second depends on the fact if you need more knock-ups in fight (aka. your team needs more control).
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i don't really care about dropping a lot, but I wish it made more sense.
it's clearly using other factors than MMR for the placement.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On January 25 2014 02:53 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:39 glzElectromaster wrote:
Just finished the Opening Party of E-Sports Square in Akihabara (Japan). Showmatch between Detonation FM (IEM rep from Japan) and CJ Entus. They used the Frost line up but they swapped out mid and jungler and used Ambition and Daydream.
Obviously it was a stomp but the bot lane for Detonation got some 2v2 kills on Space and Madlife. (Lucian/Thresh vs Ezreal/Blitzcrank, CJ playing the latter duo)
It was really only a stomp because Daydream got big through getting a early lead by killing Vi (as Khazix) at lvl 3? and Shy bullied Yasuo in top lane as Renekton.
I have some pictures from the venue but idk if they are any good. The CJ team and most of Detonation participated online. I remember Det.FMs botlane being really good, Anelace had a lot of sick plays as Nami in S3.
I wonder what the ping would be from Japan to SEA, shouldn't be that bad. Maybe we'll see a Japanese seed for GPL in the future.
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EPT
