Personally, I find laning against Yasuo more enjoyable than laning against Garen (a champion with two primary axes of counterplay -- maintain range when his cooldowns are available; damage him periodically to prevent his passive from activating) or LeBlanc (shove the lane or she kills your side lanes) because of how many ways there are to improve against him and because my strategy often varies dramatically depending on my champion's strengths, but opinions may vary.

The wise words of CertainlyT.

nafta

Bulgaria18893 Posts

January 11 2014 23:23 GMT

#4046

I wish wind wall got the sivir spell shield treatment.4 seconds is just too long.It could a reduced cd to compensate but it is just dumb.

Lord Tolkien

United States12083 Posts

January 11 2014 23:24 GMT

#4047

On January 12 2014 07:57 Ketara wrote:
That's honestly pretty similar to my mid Quinn build.

He was playing bot lane Quinn, where going GBlade is...questionable.

And the build order, with LW last item slot, was amusing.

krndandaman

Mozambique16569 Posts

January 11 2014 23:30 GMT

#4048

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Lord Tolkien

United States12083 Posts

January 11 2014 23:42 GMT

#4049

On January 12 2014 08:30 krndandaman wrote:

Show nested quote +

It was actually triforce, youmuus.
don't remember the last items though since I stopped watching after he did that nice outplay with youmuus.

Huh, must've misremembered then.

Goumindong

United States3529 Posts

January 12 2014 01:17 GMT

#4050

On January 12 2014 08:24 Lord Tolkien wrote:

Show nested quote +

He was playing bot lane Quinn, where going GBlade is...questionable.

And the build order, with LW last item slot, was amusing.

Why? Ghostblade is pretty much the strongest early game damage item due to the power of Pen. If you don't need full crit/lifesteal/attack speed scaling there isn't anything wrong with it. Quinn uses all of its stats better than most ADC's so i can't see it being a bad buy.

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

January 12 2014 01:43 GMT

#4051

Is the upgrade worth it? I've never thought upgrading ghostblade was worth it, ever.

Lord Tolkien

United States12083 Posts

January 12 2014 01:45 GMT

#4052

On January 12 2014 10:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Is the upgrade worth it? I've never thought upgrading ghostblade was worth it, ever.

Yes. On champs like Talon etc. it's great/fantastic for making da plays. People get Hydra however for farming, but Youmuu's is probably first item on non-SR maps (not a good judge of balance, but still).

However, the item buildup to Youmuus is horrible for bot laners. If you have enough for a Brut why not just get a BF sword. Or, if you go Triforce, Phage?

Also, you generally tend to get a vamp scep early which detracts from the build.

Thought he went Youmuu's into TF as Quinn, as opposed to the opposite.

Which is more understandable.

Alaric

France45622 Posts

January 12 2014 01:54 GMT

#4053

Eh, haven't done the math, but in Talon's case he makes good use of Hydra's active too—Tiamat brings him almost as much damage on his combo as BT, maybe more if you don't include the ult.
Sure when you get bruta it's a power spike, but the difference between it and tiamat is like 600 gold, you'd better leverage the timing fast and hard if you want to make it worth (sure, if you get it super early because you get first blood it's something else, but then you're snowballing so... ).

Lord Tolkien

United States12083 Posts

January 12 2014 02:11 GMT

#4054

He absolutely makes good effect of the extra Tiamat/hydra burst, but the primary reason it's seen over Youmuu's first on Talon is the ease of farming it provides.

Youmuu's is still a great upgrade of brut over Cleaver for Talon, however. The extra MS boost in conjunction with his ulti makes a significant difference in teamfights and assassinations. Burst AS on a champ which naturally stacks AD, as well.

Goumindong

United States3529 Posts

January 12 2014 02:18 GMT

#4055

On January 12 2014 10:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Is the upgrade worth it? I've never thought upgrading ghostblade was worth it, ever.

Absolutely.

Consider what you can buy at the 2700 gold price point:

BF+Vamp = 55 AD + 10% lifesteal.

Ghostblade provide: 30 AD, 20 armor pen, 15% critical hit, 10% CDR, and a 40% attack speed/move speed active.

That is 3163 gold worth of stats before the armor pen and CDR.

Importantly you get some of these stats when they're most valuable. Attack speed is worst most early because of the large amount of free attack speed scaling. Armor Penetration is most valuable early because its increasing in strength the lower the enemys armor(which scales as they level up)

Additionally you get these stats in ideal multiplicative scaling. The ideal way to build auto attack DPS in a system like leagues is to build roughly equal amounts of attack damage, critical hit, attack speed, and armor penetration. The reason for the standard BT/IE-PD-LW build is because of the relative efficiencies of each item at each point in the game and because completed items are more efficient.

Youmuu's doesn't have these issues, you go straight for all of the stats (its the same thing that makes Triforce such a strong single DPS item and early power spike from people which can use its stats).

So looking at the armor pen values and assume that the enemy laner has 50-60 armor. At 50 armor 20 armor penetration increases all of your physical damage by about 15%. Consider yourself as a champion with 70 attack damage before you buy GB. The Ghostblade will bring an effective 45 AD. (30 AD + 15% of 100). That is only 10 effective AD less than BF and Vamp for nearly the same price but it also brings 15% critical hit, 10% CDR, and a 40% attack speed active and increases the damage of your abilities by 15% as well. Quinn gets a lot of base physical damage from her passive procs and Q/E.

krndandaman

Mozambique16569 Posts

January 12 2014 02:25 GMT

#4056

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Gahlo

United States35173 Posts

January 12 2014 02:35 GMT

#4057

Armor pen removes the same amount of effective health, regardless of which segment of armor it removes. Only percentage cares about time.

GhandiEAGLE

United States20754 Posts

January 12 2014 02:36 GMT

#4058

Ghostblade also crazy on Yasuo, but I feel that we've probably been over that.

Fusilero

United Kingdom50293 Posts

January 12 2014 02:47 GMT

#4059

Listening to the Let's talk thing with Flyy/Youngbuck/Imsofresh, olly has made copenhagen wolves and KMT refuse to scrim with them because they don't like him that much rofl.

Goumindong

United States3529 Posts

January 12 2014 02:48 GMT

#4060

On January 12 2014 11:25 krndandaman wrote:
ive always heard armor pen is more valuable late game than early. the more armor they have the more useful armor pen is. I also remember bjergsen citing this as the reason he goes armor pen quints/marks on zed so that zed doesn't fall off as hard as he usually does.

Depends on whether its flat armor pen or scaling armor pen. It used to be that flat armor pen fell off hard lategame because it was applied before scaling armor pen.

I.E. enemy has 100 armor, you have 40% armor pen and 10 armor pen you would attack against 54 armor. Now armor pen goes the other way. Same values you would be hitting at 50 armor. This seems like a small amount but against people with 200 armor any large amount of armor pen would be very weak compared to other damage sources.

Now however you need all the armor pen you can get. Flat armor pen still falls off lategame as enemies get very high armor values (because the difference between 100 and 90 armor is smaller than the difference between 0 armor and 10 armor) but mainly it falls off as you're forced to target enemies with very high armor values. Armor pen is still very valuable against squishies. This makes it especially important on someone like Zed because he must be able to assassinate the back line late in the game, and failing to do that generally means he and/or his team does. The back line will only have a single armor item if any at all, and so that means flat penetration is still very relevant to him.

This is another one of the reasons that ADC's traditionally haven't gone early flat armor pen. Because they aren't as worried about being able to win the early trades as they are concerned about being able to farm enough to take down the enemy front line they go for the full 3 item timing DPS.

The new meta has moved a bit away from that with ADC's moving up their item timings in an effort to be more relevant earlier. In this case, Ghostblade is a very strong first or second buy on an ADC who has a lot of abilities because of the large amount of distributed stats.

Basically; Come back to lane with a Ghostblade as compared to nearly any other combination of 2700 gold items and the guy with the Ghostblade is going to wreck.