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On December 06 2013 11:19 NotYango wrote:
DotA 2 isn't a good comparison right now. It's effectively where LoL was in early-mid S2, and it took 3 times as long to get there.
At the current rate, it'll be 5 years from now before we know whether DotA 2 can "naturally" reach where Riot got the LoL competitive scene through direct involvement.
dota2 just officially launched this summer and is already at 7 million unique monthly players something that lol hasn't actually shown.also valve through the pennant,courier and other customization systems is the first company to create a semi-sustainable esports scene in which the fans directly support the scene by buying customizable and 100% of the money goes to tournament prize pools etc.dota2 actually has something resembling a sustainable scene.if riot pulls out of the lcs the lol scene becomes dead.dota2 players have added something like 1 mil $ to ti3 prizepool,and about 100k thousand to smaller tournaments including mlg.that is what is called sustainable and revolutionary and what actually resembles how a real sport should look like:it depends solely on the fans contributions.if people stop watching nba tommorow there is no mystical basketball corporation giving players money just to have a basketball scene.for bad or for worse dota2 fans show they can sustain a scene 100% form their donations.even without valve money there will still be a dota2 scene.i can not say the same for riot who basicly makes huge profits from selling items completly unrelated to the pro scene(the skins),gives proteams money and then complains it loses money with the lcs in interviews.
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On December 06 2013 12:26 perfidiusrex wrote:
dota2 just officially launched this summer and is already at 7 million unique monthly players something that lol hasn't actually shown.also valve through the pennant,courier and other customization systems is the first company to create a semi-sustainable esports scene in which the fans directly support the scene by buying customizable and 100% of the money goes to tournament prize pools etc.dota2 actually has something resembling a sustainable scene.if riot pulls out of the lcs the lol scene becomes dead.dota2 players have added something like 1 mil $ to ti3 prizepool,and about 100k thousand to smaller tournaments including mlg.that is what is called sustainable and revolutionary and what actually resembles how a real sport should look like:it depends solely on the fans contributions.if people stop watching nba tommorow there is no mystical basketball corporation giving players money just to have a basketball scene.for bad or for worse dota2 fans show they can sustain a scene 100% form their donations.even without valve money there will still be a dota2 scene.i can not say the same for riot who basicly makes huge profits from selling items completly unrelated to the pro scene(the skins),gives proteams money and then complains it loses money with the lcs in interviews.
1. LoL probably have at least 7 million unique monthly players in Korea and China alone (though I can't claim to have evidence for that.)
2. If Riot pulls out of the LCS, the scene simply reverts back to what it was before i.e. very similar to what Dota 2 is now.
3. Sports look absolutely nothing like what the Dota 2 scene is now, or pre-LCS LoL. Imagine if NFL or EPL teams only played semi-regularly in 8-16 team tournaments, and were chosen by an arbitrary invitation process. The only sports I can think of that are even similar to this structure are maybe boxing and tennis, and there are specific reasons why that is the case.
Do people honestly believe that the semi-regular, third-party tournament structure is the best system for e-sports? If Western e-sports are going to develop along the same lines as Korea and China, there needs to be more centralisation and professionalism. Korean players have all kinds of restrictions placed on them by both OGN and their respective teams, and people just accept it. Yet somehow Riot is crossing a boundary here?
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? I'm pretty sure people hate on Kespa too.
And why do we have to be like sports? We're Esports, we can be different.
And if riot pulls out of the LCS, the scene fucking collapses, because there's no way it can sustain in any way like dota
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On December 06 2013 12:26 perfidiusrex wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 11:19 NotYango wrote:
DotA 2 isn't a good comparison right now. It's effectively where LoL was in early-mid S2, and it took 3 times as long to get there.
At the current rate, it'll be 5 years from now before we know whether DotA 2 can "naturally" reach where Riot got the LoL competitive scene through direct involvement. dota2 just officially launched this summer and is already at 7 million unique monthly players something that lol hasn't actually shown.also valve through the pennant,courier and other customization systems is the first company to create a semi-sustainable esports scene in which the fans directly support the scene by buying customizable and 100% of the money goes to tournament prize pools etc.dota2 actually has something resembling a sustainable scene.if riot pulls out of the lcs the lol scene becomes dead.dota2 players have added something like 1 mil $ to ti3 prizepool,and about 100k thousand to smaller tournaments including mlg.that is what is called sustainable and revolutionary and what actually resembles how a real sport should look like:it depends solely on the fans contributions.if people stop watching nba tommorow there is no mystical basketball corporation giving players money just to have a basketball scene.for bad or for worse dota2 fans show they can sustain a scene 100% form their donations.even without valve money there will still be a dota2 scene.i can not say the same for riot who basicly makes huge profits from selling items completly unrelated to the pro scene(the skins),gives proteams money and then complains it loses money with the lcs in interviews.
were you not around for the drama a while back in the dota 2 scene with Loda calling out another team for not being pro?
Many many dota 2 teams right now have the huge issue of not being able to truly dedicate themselves to dota 2 full-time precisely due to the lack of income that Riot provides the League pro scene. If you are not Alliance, Na'vi, Liquid, or any of the incredibly big name teams, you literally cannot play Dota 2 full-time.
While Riot's list of games may be overzealous and over-inclusive, which according to Saint Riot may be looking at revising, this action is not at all absurd. I can guarantee you that virtually every single company in the world would do the exact same thing in Riot's shoes. This is a non-compete clause because pro players first and foremost are, for better or for worse, walking advertisements for Riot's game. Sports analogies aren't completely accurate because sports leagues don't own the game.
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And honestly, while I think Riot's control is a bit much and too Kespa-esque, the fact that there is a central authority running a regular, salaried tournament is incredibly important for the scene. Look at esports history. The most successful esport prior to League was BW, which had practically the exact same thing in Korea under Kespa.
People saying that League pro scene will collapse if Riot pulls out or that the Dota scene is "more sustainable" are delusional. League before LCS was virtually exactly the same state as the pro Dota scene now. In other words, the top teams can afford to play full-time - everyone else scrapes by with $1000 weekly Go4LoLs. If Riot pulls out of the pro scene, in all likelihood everything will just revert back to where it was 2 years ago. OR it will go the way of SC2 prior to WCS - that is, all the serious pros go to somewhere with an established infrastructure aka Korea.
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On December 06 2013 09:01 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
>no-compete clauses
>ban of smoking
Feel free to scream at people more.
All you people waving torches a crying about "Riot's greed" need a reality check.
Riot apologist offers others a reality check, how cute.
The LoL world finals SOLD OUT STAPLES CENTER. Riot deserves a hell of a lot of praise for creating actual, real, tangible progress for esports.
NA LCS - Top 8 finish, EU LCS - Top 4. Progress you said? Mediocre teams with no skills to compete on the worldwide level are being paid in order to provide artificial competition that is what more than half of LCS players are about.
@Ryuu314, your info is outdated at best. if the team is talented, they'll find the way in proscene. if they can't beat top 2-5 teams in their region occasionally the progaming isn't meant for them.
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If by outdated you mean the Loda drama that happened literally no more than 2 months ago? Sure.
And if you think a sustainable pro scene means there should only be 5 teams then you have a very strange definition of sustainable.
It's not about teams being good enough to beat top teams. It's about teams being marketable and popular enough for companies to want to pay them a regular salary. A scene in which its players rely purely on tournament winnings is not good. Lack of job security and a steady stream of income is bad for the scene.
I challenge you to name over 8 NA dota 2 teams that are being paid a regular salary and/or can afford to play Dota 2 on a full-time basis. Because that's basically what you're comparing the Dota 2 scene to.
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I haven't followed Loda's drama, I was talking about one thousand dollars cups you mentioned.
I haven't talked about sustainability, I talked about competitive level. Making money out of your name is always welcome, but if you don't provide results outside of marketing area you don't belong to sports scene. Top 5 teams showing consistent results, 5-7 teams showing ocassional result, 5-10 teams making their way to replace someone from the said categories is more than enough for an average viewer.
NA Dota hasn't got a single home LAN tournament for upcoming teams before MLG, it's too early to speak about that, but EU scene can be compared with LCS as for now. There is a good reason Chinese tournaments invite Western teams to participate in their activities - not because they can advertise themselves to Asian audience, but because they cpar compete wiith Chinese teams on even terms - which was literally impossible 3 years ago. That's what progress is about.
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there aren't even 8 good NA dota teams
Shit, there isn't even 1 good NA lol team
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LoL turning into a more mainstream piece of entertainment with real-world consequences and rules about their "athletes".
Esports community up in arms over something not being a charity...
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Many will agree that on the grand scheme of things, there's at most 1 good NA League team. But that's exactly my point. Even though NA League pro scene is pretty shit in terms of skill, we have many NA League teams that can afford to actually play the game full time.
Having good players isn't enough to breed a healthy, sustainable competitive scene. You need money and infrastructure. For better or worse, Riot provides that for League. The lack of such infrastructure and constant stream of money is at least in part why the NA pro Dota scene is effectively non-existent despite the game being out for quite some time now.
I'm curious, how many Western pro Dota teams have a full roster of full-time players?
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The only reason NA even got in top 8 at worlds is cause they were seeded in. They're all bad.
every single one.
Also like, every western team has a full roster, wut?
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Realistically if you compare the relative skill disparity between regions in LoL and DotA, not a single Western LoL team could be considered "good".
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
maybe asian dota teams are just bad in comparison to LoL ones.
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Realistically, the most important component of encouraging the gap closing between regional skill differences is not "infrastructure", it's exposure. None of that "infrastructure" existed in Western DotA in the year 2012-2013. The key was exposure between regions allows the weaker region to learn from the stronger region and catch up.
And yet, Riot's crusade to squelch international competition has prevented precisely this. As Western teams do not have any opportunities to play Eastern teams in international competition, the gap can only widen with no opportunities for interaction--as the stronger region gets stronger and the weaker region gets weaker.
On December 06 2013 13:59 Chexx wrote:
maybe asian dota teams are just bad in comparison to LoL ones.
Everything is relative. There's no way to compare the absolute "skill" of Asian LoL teams vs. Asian DotA teams.
The only thing you can compare is the disparity between them and their respective Western counterparts.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On December 06 2013 13:59 NotYango wrote:Realistically, the most important component of encouraging the gap closing between regional skill differences is not "infrastructure", it's exposure. None of that "infrastructure" existed in Western DotA in the year 2012-2013. The key was exposure between regions allows the weaker region to learn from the stronger region and catch up. And yet, Riot's crusade to squelch international competition has prevented precisely this. As Western teams do not have any opportunities to play Eastern teams in international competition, the gap can only widen with no opportunities for interaction--as the stronger region gets stronger and the weaker region gets weaker. Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 13:59 Chexx wrote:
maybe asian dota teams are just bad in comparison to LoL ones. Everything is relative. There's no way to compare the absolute "skill" of Asian LoL teams vs. Asian DotA teams. The only thing you can compare is the disparity between them and their respective Western counterparts.
Gambit has a pretty good score for a western team against korean teams.
the only thing tourneys like mlg, iem, etc exchange is meta not personal skill level. The personal skill level can only increase in a long term exchange between asian/western teams. Where they can scrim each other regularly and not just once a weekend.
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On December 06 2013 13:50 Shaella wrote:
The only reason NA even got in top 8 at worlds is cause they were seeded in. They're all bad.
every single one.
Also like, every western team has a full roster, wut?
Specifically full time players. Players who do nothing but play Dota.
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On December 06 2013 14:05 Chexx wrote:
the only thing tourneys like mlg, iem, etc exchange is meta not personal skill level. The personal skill level can only increase in a long term exchange between asian/western teams. Where they can scrim each other regularly and not just once a weekend.
Not when the predominant limitation in the development of the best Western teams is not necessarily ability, but complacency.
When you are only going to play a team that's better than you once a year, there's zero motivation to play to the level of that team when 350 days of the year you win all your games and it absolutely does not matter how much you improve.
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On December 06 2013 14:10 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 13:50 Shaella wrote:
The only reason NA even got in top 8 at worlds is cause they were seeded in. They're all bad.
every single one.
Also like, every western team has a full roster, wut? Specifically full time players. Players who do nothing but play Dota.
So basically every EU team other than filler ones like 4FC? NA's looking short of teams right now with just TL and EG, but Dig will pick up someone eventually.
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EPT
