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Riot S4 LCS contract discussion - Page 6

Forum Index > LoL General
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McRatyn
Profile Joined January 2013
Poland901 Posts
December 05 2013 19:16 GMT
#101
1) That's like what, not even 20 games? There's hundreds more, guess the players will figure something out.
2) Does not restrict them when they don't stream

Based on those two points I see no harm. It does however make Riot seem a little effy, monopoly stuff, Poland's been through that and I can tell you: not nice at all.
Masq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1792 Posts
December 05 2013 19:40 GMT
#102
Makes a lot of sense and seems fair enough to me.

Riot is also paying salaries to these players right? You don't see other 'athletes' from various sports running around with rivals jerseys and promoting the competition. It's not like they're saying they can't play those games, they just don't want them promoting it.
perfidiusrex
Profile Joined December 2013
Belgium78 Posts
December 05 2013 19:43 GMT
#103
On December 06 2013 04:40 Masq wrote:
Makes a lot of sense and seems fair enough to me.

Riot is also paying salaries to these players right? You don't see other 'athletes' from various sports running around with rivals jerseys and promoting the competition. It's not like they're saying they can't play those games, they just don't want them promoting it.


depends what you define by competition.wow+diablo+hearthstone i doubt they are competition.dota2 maybe.and yes you see athlethes promoting other sports besides the ones they play in.in the superbowl or important basketball match athlethes form all competitions attend and are filmed in the stadium
Jaedong fan
Kaneh
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada737 Posts
December 05 2013 19:43 GMT
#104
This is basic labor relations. But since Internet, it's getting sensationalized to a ridiculous degree.

People saying riot is evil because they're not being philanthropists And just throwing money away no strings attached.
nojitosunrise
Profile Joined August 2011
United States6188 Posts
December 05 2013 19:45 GMT
#105
On December 06 2013 04:07 NotYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2013 04:05 nojitosunrise wrote:
On December 06 2013 03:20 NotYango wrote:
The thing is, there's no alternative. There's no way for you to be a professional LoL player without taking Riot's money. Whereas if you don't agree to the terms of your contract you can find a different sponsor or a different employer, that option simply does not exist for a professional LoL player because the ONLY way to be a legitimate pro is to work for Riot. Any tournament player who does not take Riot's salary and who does not play in LCS is by definition an amateur because Riot has effectively killed the legitimacy of 3rd party premier events.


The same can be true of the NBA and NFL. If you don't agree to the terms of the respective leagues, you are forced to go play "professionally" elsewhere. LoL players can go to Korea/China/SEA and compete there.

Which is exactly why player unions exist to give players leverage in the face of such a monopoly.

How are unions relevant when the restrictions everyone is angry about still exists?? Just because there is a lol players union doesn't magically mean these kinds of restrictions go away.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
December 05 2013 19:48 GMT
#106
I think what Riot did was totally reasonable, but Riot's idea was misrepresented from the initial 'leak'. Also, the average LoLers are too .... dumb, if you will ... to understand this is how it works in the real world.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Zhiroo
Profile Joined February 2011
Kosovo2724 Posts
December 05 2013 19:51 GMT
#107
On December 06 2013 04:48 Sufficiency wrote:
I think what Riot did was totally reasonable, but Riot's idea was misrepresented from the initial 'leak'. Also, the average LoLers are too .... dumb, if you will ... to understand this is how it works in the real world.


Of course it was misrepresented considering who 'leaked' it.
LoL EuW: Zhiroo - By starting this squabble you've proven nothing but how vast your stupidity is.
NotYango
Profile Joined December 2013
United States719 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-05 19:57:45
December 05 2013 19:52 GMT
#108
On December 06 2013 04:43 Kaneh wrote:
This is basic labor relations. But since Internet, it's getting sensationalized to a ridiculous degree.

People saying riot is evil because they're not being philanthropists And just throwing money away no strings attached.

In "basic labor relations" you either negotiate as a collective entity to protect your collective interests, or there are at least multiple employers competing for the same labor pool which keeps them in check.

On December 06 2013 04:45 nojitosunrise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2013 04:07 NotYango wrote:
On December 06 2013 04:05 nojitosunrise wrote:
On December 06 2013 03:20 NotYango wrote:
The thing is, there's no alternative. There's no way for you to be a professional LoL player without taking Riot's money. Whereas if you don't agree to the terms of your contract you can find a different sponsor or a different employer, that option simply does not exist for a professional LoL player because the ONLY way to be a legitimate pro is to work for Riot. Any tournament player who does not take Riot's salary and who does not play in LCS is by definition an amateur because Riot has effectively killed the legitimacy of 3rd party premier events.


The same can be true of the NBA and NFL. If you don't agree to the terms of the respective leagues, you are forced to go play "professionally" elsewhere. LoL players can go to Korea/China/SEA and compete there.

Which is exactly why player unions exist to give players leverage in the face of such a monopoly.

How are unions relevant when the restrictions everyone is angry about still exists?? Just because there is a lol players union doesn't magically mean these kinds of restrictions go away.

It means that the players have collective bargaining power against contract terms which they disagree with (and clearly quite a few players do disagree with it).

Anyone sensible knows that the actual restriction itself has very little meaning (quite literally the only game on that list played in any sigificant capacity by LCS players is Hearthstone). It's much more a matter of precedent that makes this worrisome.
yango pls
Slow Motion
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States6960 Posts
December 05 2013 19:52 GMT
#109
On December 06 2013 04:45 nojitosunrise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2013 04:07 NotYango wrote:
On December 06 2013 04:05 nojitosunrise wrote:
On December 06 2013 03:20 NotYango wrote:
The thing is, there's no alternative. There's no way for you to be a professional LoL player without taking Riot's money. Whereas if you don't agree to the terms of your contract you can find a different sponsor or a different employer, that option simply does not exist for a professional LoL player because the ONLY way to be a legitimate pro is to work for Riot. Any tournament player who does not take Riot's salary and who does not play in LCS is by definition an amateur because Riot has effectively killed the legitimacy of 3rd party premier events.


The same can be true of the NBA and NFL. If you don't agree to the terms of the respective leagues, you are forced to go play "professionally" elsewhere. LoL players can go to Korea/China/SEA and compete there.

Which is exactly why player unions exist to give players leverage in the face of such a monopoly.

How are unions relevant when the restrictions everyone is angry about still exists?? Just because there is a lol players union doesn't magically mean these kinds of restrictions go away.

It means that players can have a lawyer review Riot's contracts and negotiate unfavorable terms. It means that a controversial restriction like this that severely limit players' activities may not make it into the contract, or if it does, the players can get something favorable to them in return. Much better for the players when their hand isn't forced by the "take it or leave it" contractual terms Riot has full power over.

Honestly I'm less annoyed by this particular restriction than I am the fact that Riot will continue to force upon players these one-sided contracts and there are still people who are against a player's union.
nojitosunrise
Profile Joined August 2011
United States6188 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-05 20:00:47
December 05 2013 19:57 GMT
#110
On December 06 2013 04:52 NotYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2013 04:43 Kaneh wrote:
This is basic labor relations. But since Internet, it's getting sensationalized to a ridiculous degree.

People saying riot is evil because they're not being philanthropists And just throwing money away no strings attached.

In "basic labor relations" you either negotiate as a collective entity to protect your collective interests, or there are at least multiple employers competing for the same labor pool which keeps them in check.

Show nested quote +
On December 06 2013 04:45 nojitosunrise wrote:
On December 06 2013 04:07 NotYango wrote:
On December 06 2013 04:05 nojitosunrise wrote:
On December 06 2013 03:20 NotYango wrote:
The thing is, there's no alternative. There's no way for you to be a professional LoL player without taking Riot's money. Whereas if you don't agree to the terms of your contract you can find a different sponsor or a different employer, that option simply does not exist for a professional LoL player because the ONLY way to be a legitimate pro is to work for Riot. Any tournament player who does not take Riot's salary and who does not play in LCS is by definition an amateur because Riot has effectively killed the legitimacy of 3rd party premier events.


The same can be true of the NBA and NFL. If you don't agree to the terms of the respective leagues, you are forced to go play "professionally" elsewhere. LoL players can go to Korea/China/SEA and compete there.

Which is exactly why player unions exist to give players leverage in the face of such a monopoly.

How are unions relevant when the restrictions everyone is angry about still exists?? Just because there is a lol players union doesn't magically mean these kinds of restrictions go away.

It means that the players have collective bargaining power against contract terms which they disagree with (and clearly quite a few players do disagree with it).


Players still have bargaining power in the LCS even without a union. And labor unions in the NBA NFL haven't prevented extremely restrictive contracts from being created.
Shelke14
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada6655 Posts
December 05 2013 20:09 GMT
#111
Bumblebee has it right. With Riot paying for such a large portion of these teams needs( travel etc..) and in return they wish that if you are apart of the lcs do not stream certain games. In private those people can play any game they choose but in the public light riot wants it a certain way. Riot has every right to want this. I'm betting lots of teams when it comes down to it don't mind it either. Not every team is TSM, sitting on loads of cash able to cover all expenses that is needed to run a LoL team. Now, if all the teams really want this section to change... Sure, hire a group or start a union amongst all the teams. Figure of the costs it takes to have and see where negotiating goes with riot. What happen if riot says alright you have made your point, lcs teams can stream anything at anytime but we will take back a portion of the money because they feel it is not in their interest to pay the players and teams that much anymore.

I think overall for what riot does for the teams and players it is a fair middle ground.
RouaF
Profile Joined October 2010
France4121 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-05 20:17:44
December 05 2013 20:17 GMT
#112
On December 06 2013 04:43 perfidiusrex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2013 04:40 Masq wrote:
Makes a lot of sense and seems fair enough to me.

Riot is also paying salaries to these players right? You don't see other 'athletes' from various sports running around with rivals jerseys and promoting the competition. It's not like they're saying they can't play those games, they just don't want them promoting it.


depends what you define by competition.wow+diablo+hearthstone i doubt they are competition.dota2 maybe.and yes you see athlethes promoting other sports besides the ones they play in.in the superbowl or important basketball match athlethes form all competitions attend and are filmed in the stadium

Of course it is competition. When there are 30 million people playing LoL there are less people playing WoW and vice versa. As we all know League of Legend despite not being a RTS is a huge competitor to starcraft 2, it even "stole" its esport spotlight. So yes all those Blizzard games are potential competitors, ESPECIALLY hearthstone which is the "hype" game of the moment and which targets exactly the same audience : casual game, easy to play, free etc.
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
December 05 2013 20:31 GMT
#113
On December 05 2013 15:59 Mannerheim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2013 15:17 Redmark wrote:
I'm an intern earning close to minimum wage and I still had to sign a non-compete (who'd even care if I worked for a competitor lol I'm going back to school anyway), so I can't say I'm too upset about this. Surely people are not tuning in for Hearthstone, the streamers can find something else to fill the time with.


The non-compete analogy is irrelevant here. When you stream you're not getting paid by Blizzard, Riot or any other gaming company, but by Twitch and the advertisers.

I work in software development and I'm rather certain my contract doesn't bar me from streaming myself writing code for myself, and getting paid for it via the advertisements. It's called capital income, in the same way as stock dividends, i.e. no company can forbid you from buying the stock of a competing company and profiting from the dividends.


Your analogy is irrelevant. You're not a public face.

Better example: Cristiano Ronaldo wearing Barcelona shirt in public and getting shot by paparazzi. How would real madrid feel?
Ethelis
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2400 Posts
December 05 2013 21:08 GMT
#114
Kapernick has been seen wearing a Dolphins hat and people aren't kicking him off the team
Disabled gamer - Diamond 3 (LoL) D+ Rank scrublord on BW. Bisu doesnt need DTs, He uses probes. just ask Flash.
perfidiusrex
Profile Joined December 2013
Belgium78 Posts
December 05 2013 21:30 GMT
#115
On December 06 2013 05:17 RouaF wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2013 04:43 perfidiusrex wrote:
On December 06 2013 04:40 Masq wrote:
Makes a lot of sense and seems fair enough to me.

Riot is also paying salaries to these players right? You don't see other 'athletes' from various sports running around with rivals jerseys and promoting the competition. It's not like they're saying they can't play those games, they just don't want them promoting it.


depends what you define by competition.wow+diablo+hearthstone i doubt they are competition.dota2 maybe.and yes you see athlethes promoting other sports besides the ones they play in.in the superbowl or important basketball match athlethes form all competitions attend and are filmed in the stadium

Of course it is competition. When there are 30 million people playing LoL there are less people playing WoW and vice versa. As we all know League of Legend despite not being a RTS is a huge competitor to starcraft 2, it even "stole" its esport spotlight. So yes all those Blizzard games are potential competitors, ESPECIALLY hearthstone which is the "hype" game of the moment and which targets exactly the same audience : casual game, easy to play, free etc.


i think it is a mistake to presume that people play only 1 game.in general people try out and play dozens of games at the same time depending on which they consider the most fun.playing lol doesnt prevent you from playing wow and diablo and hearthstone.guess what:you can play all of them at the same time.the fact that riot thinks if they prevent dyrus from playing hearthstone they will slow the growth of hearthstone they have another thing coming
Jaedong fan
BlueSpace
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany2182 Posts
December 05 2013 21:50 GMT
#116
On December 05 2013 20:18 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2013 17:53 BlueSpace wrote:
There are different perspectives on this problem. I also think that the interest of the individual companies (Blizzard, Valve, Riot, etc.) are not aligned with the people actually participating in E-sports. I'm not talking about the individual employees that work for them because they might be/are big E-sports fans.

But if you look at the bottom line at what is E-sport really is to a company like Riot then it is mainly a marketing tool. Valve for example even admitted that when they started the International. Given this premise it is clear why Riot is not allowing pro-players to stream competing games. Other people have already pointed it out. It is basically the same as letting your employee advertise a competing product. And most companies do that and yes it extends into your leisure time. What Riot is doing is "normal", but it still should be discussed if applying "normal" rules is the best thing to do here.

Now if you think of what teams are interested in, then it is to raise the awareness and acceptance of E-sport in general. The mayor teams have squads/players across several different games, which makes sense because games might fall out of favor. So if dota players stream lol or lol players stream dota, it isn't such a big deal. Teams might have preferences and will generally push the games they are more successful with, but overall they should have a wider perspective.

Regarding player unions, I have no idea how contracts are negotiated between the teams and Riot, but if I would be on the team side, I would definitely try to band together in order to negotiate with Riot. They can kick individiual teams out of the LCS but they will have a hard time to run a credible tournament if a large parts of the team don't participate due to contract issues.

Last but not least, people should realize, that witch hunting Riot is something that other mobas have become really good at. Riot is a big target and they are trying to act "mature" in a community which is dominated by kids/young adults, that might not be really familiar with how buisnesses operate. So pointing fingers and stirring up outrage is another way to advertise your product. Just make your competition look bad.

Other people have already pointed out that when pro players play other game than LoL they do not promote the said game, but promote themselves. And, yeah, nobody would give a flak if they banned only MOBA games (we all know how dirty Riot plays on that ground from the day one, basically), but banning non-esportish Blizzard games like WoW, Warcraft 3 or Diablo, which are by no means LoL's direct competetitors, is another story.

I do not know what do you mean by "witch hunting", but your (crack-pot) theory certainly deserves a little praise.


I mean by witch hunting, that people paint Riot as being super evil for doing something that any of their competitors would also do if they were in the same position. You can critizise Riot for creating LCS the way it is, but it makes no sense to start this discussion every time Riot again behaves like a regular company.

LCS = Promotion. Lol = Computer Game. Promoting Lol = Play more LoL over any other game.

It is that simple.
Probe1: "Because people are opinionated and love to share their thoughts. Then they read someone else agree with them and get their opinion confused with fact."
NotYango
Profile Joined December 2013
United States719 Posts
December 05 2013 21:52 GMT
#117
Part of it is that Riot's built up that "by gamers for gamers" image and criticizing the way other companies design their games from the start, so it's actually totally valid to call them out behaving like a regular company when their entire publicity image was built on being exceptional.
yango pls
Souone
Profile Joined July 2012
Brazil470 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-05 21:54:19
December 05 2013 21:52 GMT
#118
On December 06 2013 05:31 saddaromma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2013 15:59 Mannerheim wrote:
On December 05 2013 15:17 Redmark wrote:
I'm an intern earning close to minimum wage and I still had to sign a non-compete (who'd even care if I worked for a competitor lol I'm going back to school anyway), so I can't say I'm too upset about this. Surely people are not tuning in for Hearthstone, the streamers can find something else to fill the time with.


The non-compete analogy is irrelevant here. When you stream you're not getting paid by Blizzard, Riot or any other gaming company, but by Twitch and the advertisers.

I work in software development and I'm rather certain my contract doesn't bar me from streaming myself writing code for myself, and getting paid for it via the advertisements. It's called capital income, in the same way as stock dividends, i.e. no company can forbid you from buying the stock of a competing company and profiting from the dividends.


Your analogy is irrelevant. You're not a public face.

Better example: Cristiano Ronaldo wearing Barcelona shirt in public and getting shot by paparazzi. How would real madrid feel?


Isn't Riot FIFA though ? It's Cristiano Ronaldo wearing an NFL shirt.

Or is Riot FIFA and Real ? What is TSM here ?

Or are sports analogies just bad ?
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
December 05 2013 22:03 GMT
#119
--- Nuked ---
ProBot
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada170 Posts
December 05 2013 22:04 GMT
#120
What i don't get out of all this is how they use pro athletes to defend this .. when you watch a hockey game, they show the players warming up juggling a football ( respect to the euros ) so i fail to see the point. It seems like they're trying to create an imaginary bridge between property rights and an individuals stream to control competition and i don't know how that doesn't come off as apparent when the list of games includes every other non-moba e-sport title, and coincidentally enough every other top viewed game being streamed on twitch. It might be good for riot in the short term, don't think it'll last. Just makes me more anxious for the blizzard moba tbh.
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