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On December 05 2013 09:12 hoby2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 08:53 Glasse wrote:
This is pretty much the same as banning a NBA player from playing hockey in his free time. Uhhh... not even close. First of all, NBA players are only on TV when they're playing basketball. While they're playing basketball, they can't promote other sports or activities they may be a part of (See: Gordon Hayward who was all about SC2 when the NBA was on strike, and suddenly disappeared after it came back... huh) their lives. In fact, they can't even promote products that they're not suppose to promote or they get fined out the ass for it. Second, they can still play these games during the LCS - They just can't stream them because that makes sense. If you're going to be contracted and paid by a company, you best be promoting their product when you're showing your face to the public, not someone else's. Riot needs their players to be standing by the game 100% so companies will invest into LoL, and not have to expect players or teams to drop it because this new game came out last week, and everyone thinks it's going to be hot shit. No point in investing in something if the wind is going to change in a year or two. Third, most people are overreacting about this. It's a step in the right direction - a giant one at that. People want Esports to be more legit, but when shit like this comes along, the viewers rant and rave about it. I'm just glad that Riot will likely not back down in this instance just because a bunch of whiney fans think they know better which they don't.
actually gordon stopped playing sc2 because he plays lol now.
https://twitter.com/gordonhayward/status/381521175462965248/photo/1
On December 05 2013 09:15 hoby2000 wrote:
Except SC2 is not a direct competitor to basketball, not even close, and if it were, they would ban him from doing it during the season. It makes sense, and if you disagree with it, you probably know little to nothing about how you should contract players if you want a company to invest in your team.
I thought you know riot was supposed to be talking about how lol is a real sport, and as such would be a competitor to sports. and nice argument style "if you disagree you are dumb"
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I thought this was all common knowledge. I still remember Link stopping his dota 2 stream after getting a message from someone that told him to stop some 10 months ago
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If the players are alright with signing the contract, then whatever. I think it's dumb, but if that's how they want to run their business, then go for it. However, don't try to say it's the same thing as real sports.
Leagues doesn't come down on athletes in professional sport X, want to play in sport Y during the off-season for fun in a public, but amateur setting. Playing a game, in your own time for fun, is not promoting a competing brand.
As an example: Players from the NHL are banned from playing hockey in a public setting, not golf. Playing golf for fun on a public course for all to see does not mean they are promoting golf.
(If they were then oh boy one of the golf course near me would be a hot bed...)
The reason why NHL players are banned from playing amateur hockey is because that's giving away the "product" for free, and de-valuing the league.
The "equivalent" would be that LCS players are banned from streaming pub games, because that's giving away the LCS's product for free.
Of course, all of that kind of goes out the window if Riot was paying the players to stream, but I don't think they are?
Edit: I suppose the legal waters would be muddied a bit by the fact that they technically make money from streaming other games, but again, that's not promotion.
Edit2: I also speak more about thinks like Hearthstone being banned.
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On December 05 2013 09:15 hoby2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 09:06 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 05 2013 08:59 ItsFunToLose wrote:On December 05 2013 08:53 Glasse wrote:
This is pretty much the same as banning a NBA player from playing hockey in his free time. and trying to get their hockey game broadcast on TV while taking a cut of the advertising. stop with the analogies if you're going to be wrong and or stupid. this is just like the NBA banning gordon hayward from streaming SC2. Except SC2 is not a direct competitor to basketball, not even close, and if it were, they would ban him from doing it during the season..
SC2 may not be a direct competitor, but it can easily be a indirect one. If you think about what the term competitor means in this context, it's an activity or game that will detract from the attention or viewership from said sport. It shouldn't matter what medium the games are played on (computers, consoles, IRL), viewers/players are still individual bodies that will spend their a majority of their time following a single sport/game. Just because SC2 and basketball aren't the exact same genre, the competition between activities is still there. It also shouldn't matter if the competition is big or small. Every game starts out small and has the potential to become the next big thing. It's best to decrease the competition early before it becomes something you can't fight against with what you have. Yes, this can apply to almost anything but it's easier to target activities that have any sort of substance.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
If the players are alright with signing the contract, then whatever. I think it's dumb, but if that's how they want to run their business, then go for it. However, don't try to say it's the same thing as real sports.
They don't really have a choice whether to sign it or not, if they don't then they don't have a job.
anyway I don't think its a big deal, the most annoying thing is most likely that the streamers will have to fill time in between games without Heartstone/other games.
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On December 05 2013 10:10 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +If the players are alright with signing the contract, then whatever. I think it's dumb, but if that's how they want to run their business, then go for it. However, don't try to say it's the same thing as real sports. They don't really have a choice whether to sign it or not, if they don't then they don't have a job. anyway I don't think its a big deal, the most annoying thing is most likely that the streamers will have to fill time in between games without Heartstone/other games.
Riot TCG incoming...it was Riot's plan all along!
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It's a dark day for esports. Not just because the contract is ridiculous but also because there are people who are okay with it. Being a good game is protection enough, this is just unethical bs because they force it onto teenagers and young adults who have no choice but to accept whatever contract riot presents them. Shitty company, really regret giving them money.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
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Whole lot of naive people getting their knickers in a knot over this.
Cute 
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People are getting awfully upset over this, but as I see it, this is just an inevitable outcome of the increasing professionalism in Western e-sports. There is nothing really unethical about this; Riot has identified what it sees as its key competition, and included stipulations in their contract which prevent their employees from promoting them, indirectly or otherwise. I'm certainly not a fan of all of Riot's business practices, but the 'killing e-sports' complain is pretty pathetic considering Riot are one of the only companies that seems to be interested in building a genuine e-sports infrastructure in the West, instead of just shipping that job out to a series of third-party promoters and organisers, and then throwing a big 'World Championship' tournament once a year.
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I'll make a bet right now and stick to it.
Companies put this information out first then see how the public reacts to it, then they retract it and call it a mistake. This is a simple strategy that has been repeated millions of times in not just gaming.
I will say this won't stick.
But with all honesty, argue against it.
Riot is reading.
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On December 05 2013 13:03 baekgom84 wrote:
People are getting awfully upset over this, but as I see it, this is just an inevitable outcome of the increasing professionalism in Western e-sports. There is nothing really unethical about this; Riot has identified what it sees as its key competition, and included stipulations in their contract which prevent their employees from promoting them, indirectly or otherwise. I'm certainly not a fan of all of Riot's business practices, but the 'killing e-sports' complain is pretty pathetic considering Riot are one of the only companies that seems to be interested in building a genuine e-sports infrastructure in the West, instead of just shipping that job out to a series of third-party promoters and organisers, and then throwing a big 'World Championship' tournament once a year.
Congratulations, you have made me mad.
Tobacco and alcohol have suddenly became Riot's competition, and dictating the pro players what they can or not do on their own stream means company treats them only as PR's assets, and don't acknowledge their talent and charisma denying their part in LoL's success whatsoever.
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On December 05 2013 14:03 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Congratulations, you have made me mad.
Tobacco and alcohol have suddenly became Riot's competition, and dictating the pro players what they can or not do on their own stream means company treats them only as PR's assets, and don't acknowledge their talent and charisma denying their part in LoL's success whatsoever.
I guess people who try to sugarcoat or defend this matter live under the exact same pressure of their employers.
The players are employed by Riot and have a very active role in promoting Riot's product. From Riot's perspective, they have decided that they don't want their product associated with the particular substances you mentioned, nor do they want their employees promoting products or companies that they see as their direct competition. Like I said, this is the trade-off that comes with being a full-time professional. I wouldn't be surprised if Riot also wanted to include offensive language on this list, but I can only assume they realised that would be pushing things too far.
I'm not saying I like these changes, but just that they are probably inevitable as long as e-sports keeps moving in this direction. These guys are essentially marketing assets for Riot, and that's how they'll be treated.
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On December 05 2013 14:03 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 13:03 baekgom84 wrote:
People are getting awfully upset over this, but as I see it, this is just an inevitable outcome of the increasing professionalism in Western e-sports. There is nothing really unethical about this; Riot has identified what it sees as its key competition, and included stipulations in their contract which prevent their employees from promoting them, indirectly or otherwise. I'm certainly not a fan of all of Riot's business practices, but the 'killing e-sports' complain is pretty pathetic considering Riot are one of the only companies that seems to be interested in building a genuine e-sports infrastructure in the West, instead of just shipping that job out to a series of third-party promoters and organisers, and then throwing a big 'World Championship' tournament once a year. Congratulations, you have made me mad. Tobacco and alcohol have suddenly became Riot's competition, and dictating the pro players what they can or not do on their own stream means company treats them only as PR's assets, and don't acknowledge their talent and charisma denying their part in LoL's success whatsoever.
First off, to the best of my knowledge based on tweets and reading the actual, posted contract + article, alcohol is never mentioned as a banned streaming item.
Secondly, the stuff about gambling, drugs, porn, weapons, and tobacco honestly are not that absurd. These players are basically Riot employees and should present a good public face. Besides, are you honestly mad that Riot is trying to make sure these players and streamers are good role models? Do you really want streamer X snorting coke and smoking while simultaneously watching porn on stream? Think of the children man.
Companies, sports associations, etc...all often have a code of conduct for their employees when on the job. IE. non-competes, no drinking on the job, no drugs, etc... Streaming is very novel. At this point, streaming for these players is not necessarily just something they do for fun. It's honestly part of their job - they're getting paid to do it.
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I can't believe so many people are upset about this. These players are employed by Riot, so how is it wrong for Riot to want these players that they are investing in to promote their brand and not their competitors?
This is essentially the same thing as a conflict of interest clause, which is a standard inclusion in contracts. Would it be wrong for a consulting firm to bar one of its employees from providing services to one of its primary competitors?
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I'm an intern earning close to minimum wage and I still had to sign a non-compete (who'd even care if I worked for a competitor lol I'm going back to school anyway), so I can't say I'm too upset about this. Surely people are not tuning in for Hearthstone, the streamers can find something else to fill the time with.
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On December 05 2013 15:17 Redmark wrote:
I'm an intern earning close to minimum wage and I still had to sign a non-compete (who'd even care if I worked for a competitor lol I'm going back to school anyway), so I can't say I'm too upset about this. Surely people are not tuning in for Hearthstone, the streamers can find something else to fill the time with.
The non-compete analogy is irrelevant here. When you stream you're not getting paid by Blizzard, Riot or any other gaming company, but by Twitch and the advertisers.
I work in software development and I'm rather certain my contract doesn't bar me from streaming myself writing code for myself, and getting paid for it via the advertisements. It's called capital income, in the same way as stock dividends, i.e. no company can forbid you from buying the stock of a competing company and profiting from the dividends.
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On December 05 2013 14:45 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 14:03 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On December 05 2013 13:03 baekgom84 wrote:
People are getting awfully upset over this, but as I see it, this is just an inevitable outcome of the increasing professionalism in Western e-sports. There is nothing really unethical about this; Riot has identified what it sees as its key competition, and included stipulations in their contract which prevent their employees from promoting them, indirectly or otherwise. I'm certainly not a fan of all of Riot's business practices, but the 'killing e-sports' complain is pretty pathetic considering Riot are one of the only companies that seems to be interested in building a genuine e-sports infrastructure in the West, instead of just shipping that job out to a series of third-party promoters and organisers, and then throwing a big 'World Championship' tournament once a year. Congratulations, you have made me mad. Tobacco and alcohol have suddenly became Riot's competition, and dictating the pro players what they can or not do on their own stream means company treats them only as PR's assets, and don't acknowledge their talent and charisma denying their part in LoL's success whatsoever. First off, to the best of my knowledge based on tweets and reading the actual, posted contract + article, alcohol is never mentioned as a banned streaming item. Secondly, the stuff about gambling, drugs, porn, weapons, and tobacco honestly are not that absurd. These players are basically Riot employees and should present a good public face. Besides, are you honestly mad that Riot is trying to make sure these players and streamers are good role models? Do you really want streamer X snorting coke and smoking while simultaneously watching porn on stream? Think of the children man. Companies, sports associations, etc...all often have a code of conduct for their employees when on the job. IE. non-competes, no drinking on the job, no drugs, etc... Streaming is very novel. At this point, streaming for these players is not necessarily just something they do for fun. It's honestly part of their job - they're getting paid to do it.
Alcohol was mentioned somewhere in comments (not on TL), and it would feel rather counterintuitive if tobacco is banned, but booze is not.
Well, nobody in his mind would object over banning all things you mentioned except smoking. It's basically a discrimination against people with certain habit and shouldn't be tolerated in a democratic society in my opinion.
As far as I understand, Riot is paying pro players for performing at LCS, not for playing streams in their leisure time yet they are setting rules in a sphere which should be by definition free of their influence. No matter how good your intentions sound on paper, it shouldn't affect another person's freedom.
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On December 05 2013 09:28 OutlaW- wrote:
I thought this was all common knowledge. I still remember Link stopping his dota 2 stream after getting a message from someone that told him to stop some 10 months ago
Any chance there is a vod? Or you know who message was from/what it said
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EPT
