EPTbasis attacks are pretty key to overall ranged vs melee early dominance, you push to gain momentum and then harass to deny cs. Basic attacks can be used much more often than fiora has W so its still worth it but fioras W is useful effective regen
[Patch 3.14] PreSeason 4 General Discussion - Page 94
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
basis attacks are pretty key to overall ranged vs melee early dominance, you push to gain momentum and then harass to deny cs. Basic attacks can be used much more often than fiora has W so its still worth it but fioras W is useful effective regen | ||
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 29 2013 23:42 Slayer91 wrote: keep in mind E Q gives you a jump+speed boost to jump from behind ganks, its mostly the side lane ones that are the problem. basis attacks are pretty key to overall ranged vs melee early dominance, you push to gain momentum and then harass to deny cs. Basic attacks can be used much more often than fiora has W so its still worth it but fioras W is useful effective regen Fiora has far more regen than your standard mage. Even if she takes 100 dmg for dealing 70 damage, she will be at full in no time while the opponent has a significantly more difficult time regening. She also will definitely not be in range of basic attacks for extended periods of time while Riposte is not up. Furthermore, they draw minion fire - It's only in very situational circumstances when it's actually a good idea to harrass Fiora with physical attacks. After getting a few Ripostes shot at them, they generally stop harrassing almost completely. not sure what you mean with QE jump + speed boost stuff. If you mean as an escape, it's very unlikely to work. On November 29 2013 23:42 Dusty wrote: What's funny is that they're wrong and you're trying very hard to not sound stupid (hint: nobody is falling for it) Is this acceptable posting? You still didn't elaborate. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
E gives a speed boost on subsequent autos or Q's, if someone ganks from behind you you can use E and then Q to get a speed boost and jump to the ganker behind you and get away | ||
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
On November 29 2013 23:43 Slayer91 wrote: they arent stupid that's a lie "Mid is more vulnerable to getting ganked because you have 2 sides to cover and paths behind. You cannot stay near the turret as Fiora because she has no projectile so you're very easy prey. In the toplane, it's much easier to cover every path with wards and they can generally only come from one direction. If you jump onto the opponent as the jungler is ganking, you're screwed. At times, you're screwed even if you're just lasthitting in the middle of the lane because of how you need to be in melee and have no escape." top lane you can lanegank, tri-gank, tri to lane-gank, river gank, and the lane is about twice as long (and for someone who is squishy, melee AND that has no direct escape mechanism, that's really bad). IN MIDLANE, however, you as long as you cover both sides with one ward (really easy now that you have trinkets and wards have very low cost), you are safe from almost every jungler, the exceptions being those with stealth (who are bullshit no matter what lane you are in) or things like zac/j4 who have 1400 range initiations... and they are just as bad in top lane because those two in particular have extra gank routes from the blue side top tri. also in soloq the most common toplaners are those who build tanky (tanky = armor/hp, aka building against fiora's only real source of damage) whereas midlane is where the squishier mages go "When the melee opponent lasthits, you hit them once or twice, and if they turn around on you, you Riposte. This gives you essentially free harrass whenever they lasthit. This option does not exist at all against ranged opponents." While this is true, against practically any ranged champion you can go in from level 1 and smack the shit out of the person you're playing against. "Basic attacks aren't crucial to magic damage-dealing champions because they deal so low damage in comparison. Any sane AP caster would not use basic attacks at all against Fiora." if you're playing against people who don't autoattack on mages then I'm sorry but your opinion means absolutely nothing as the people you are playing against are complete shit. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 29 2013 23:51 Slayer91 wrote: Depends, you only do it once you get the lane pushing and especially under tower if its safe,but fiora definitely has an easier time against auto harass because of passive+W, which is one reason why she's pretty good mid. E gives a speed boost on subsequent autos or Q's, if someone ganks from behind you you can use E and then Q to get a speed boost and jump to the ganker behind you and get away You need to use Flash and still take damage. If they have CC you're lucky to survive even with Flash. Without Flash you're either dead or take 500+ depending on their CC. It's like you theorycrafted some random stuff up without extensively testing it. | ||
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Celial
2602 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On November 29 2013 23:40 Shikyo wrote: When the melee opponent lasthits, you hit them once or twice, and if they turn around on you, you Riposte. This gives you essentially free harrass whenever they lasthit. Basic attacks aren't crucial to magic damage-dealing champions because they deal so low damage in comparison. Any sane AP caster would not use basic attacks at all against Fiora. On November 29 2013 23:47 Shikyo wrote: She also will definitely not be in range of basic attacks for extended periods of time while Riposte is not up. Furthermore, they draw minion fire - It's only in very situational circumstances when it's actually a good idea to harrass Fiora with physical attacks. After getting a few Ripostes shot at them, they generally stop harrassing almost completely. So, - does Fiora not draw minion aggro when she punishes last hits? - Fiora never ever goes in melee range to last hit unless she has Riposte up? - ranged champions would never dare to punish her last hitting with spells or autos while she has "free" harass on melee champ when they do. - Fiora's passive will be enough to outregen harass by hitting minions. You're saying absurd things that absolutely do not take the opposite situations into account, that's what hurts your credibility. You can defend by saying that her passive mitigates damage when she fights back as it'll stack on champions, or that she can make it hard to punish her last hits when Lunge is up because it means her opponent exposes himself to getting jumped on, but that only lessens the issues with what you say, it doesn't remove them. It'd be like saying Viktor can't harass most mages post-3 because the range, cast animation and shield delay on Q mean he'll take free retaliation (or even preemptive strikes) and make himself a sitting duck for skillshots. It's technically true, but only on the condition that you remove his E from the equation (more range than most point'n'click and no cast animation so you can still dodge skillshots), so it's ultimately inane. On November 29 2013 23:56 Shikyo wrote: You need to use Flash and still take damage. If they have CC you're lucky to survive even with Flash. Without Flash you're either dead or take 500+ depending on their CC. It's like you theorycrafted some random stuff up without extensively testing it. Hint: he both plays Fiora (including mid) and is better than you, so are the people he plays against. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 29 2013 23:56 Shikyo wrote: You need to use Flash and still take damage. If they have CC you're lucky to survive even with Flash. Without Flash you're either dead or take 500+ depending on their CC. It's like you theorycrafted some random stuff up without extensively testing it. Depending on your reaction time, they are very nearly in tower range if they come from behind and thus they have to dive while the mid laner is behind to get a kill. On November 29 2013 23:52 Dusty wrote: that's a lie "Mid is more vulnerable to getting ganked because you have 2 sides to cover and paths behind. You cannot stay near the turret as Fiora because she has no projectile so you're very easy prey. In the toplane, it's much easier to cover every path with wards and they can generally only come from one direction. If you jump onto the opponent as the jungler is ganking, you're screwed. At times, you're screwed even if you're just lasthitting in the middle of the lane because of how you need to be in melee and have no escape." top lane you can lanegank, tri-gank, tri to lane-gank, river gank, and the lane is about twice as long (and for someone who is squishy, melee AND that has no direct escape mechanism, that's really bad). IN MIDLANE, however, you as long as you cover both sides with one ward (really easy now that you have trinkets and wards have very low cost), you are safe from almost every jungler, the exceptions being those with stealth (who are bullshit no matter what lane you are in) or things like zac/j4 who have 1400 range initiations... and they are just as bad in top lane because those two in particular have extra gank routes from the blue side top tri. also in soloq the most common toplaners are those who build tanky (tanky = armor/hp, aka building against fiora's only real source of damage) whereas midlane is where the squishier mages go "When the melee opponent lasthits, you hit them once or twice, and if they turn around on you, you Riposte. This gives you essentially free harrass whenever they lasthit. This option does not exist at all against ranged opponents." While this is true, against practically any ranged champion you can go in from level 1 and smack the shit out of the person you're playing against. "Basic attacks aren't crucial to magic damage-dealing champions because they deal so low damage in comparison. Any sane AP caster would not use basic attacks at all against Fiora." if you're playing against people who don't autoattack on mages then I'm sorry but your opinion means absolutely nothing as the people you are playing against are complete shit. Top lane at least earlier is much easier to not get ganked. The from behind ganks can be blocked with mid ward, or just the EQ again. The lane ganks are really situational and bait dependent although they become stronger post 6 when junglers have more CC and wards are blocking standard ganks. Mostly you get away with 1 ward. In mid, it's much harder to get away with 1 ward and even with 2, you need to go nearly into their jungle to ward on both sides if you are scared of from behind ganks which takes a lot of time @alaric I haven't played fiora in a while, but nearly all my success was playing mid because top lane you run into nasus or malphite or anything really and it just crushes if you dont snowball early | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 29 2013 23:52 Dusty wrote: that's a lie "Mid is more vulnerable to getting ganked because you have 2 sides to cover and paths behind. You cannot stay near the turret as Fiora because she has no projectile so you're very easy prey. In the toplane, it's much easier to cover every path with wards and they can generally only come from one direction. If you jump onto the opponent as the jungler is ganking, you're screwed. At times, you're screwed even if you're just lasthitting in the middle of the lane because of how you need to be in melee and have no escape." top lane you can lanegank, tri-gank, tri to lane-gank, river gank, and the lane is about twice as long (and for someone who is squishy, melee AND that has no direct escape mechanism, that's really bad). IN MIDLANE, however, you as long as you cover both sides with one ward (really easy now that you have trinkets and wards have very low cost), you are safe from almost every jungler, the exceptions being those with stealth (who are bullshit no matter what lane you are in) or things like zac/j4 who have 1400 range initiations... and they are just as bad in top lane because those two in particular have extra gank routes from the blue side top tri. also in soloq the most common toplaners are those who build tanky (tanky = armor/hp, aka building against fiora's only real source of damage) whereas midlane is where the squishier mages go "When the melee opponent lasthits, you hit them once or twice, and if they turn around on you, you Riposte. This gives you essentially free harrass whenever they lasthit. This option does not exist at all against ranged opponents." While this is true, against practically any ranged champion you can go in from level 1 and smack the shit out of the person you're playing against. "Basic attacks aren't crucial to magic damage-dealing champions because they deal so low damage in comparison. Any sane AP caster would not use basic attacks at all against Fiora." if you're playing against people who don't autoattack on mages then I'm sorry but your opinion means absolutely nothing as the people you are playing against are complete shit. Top you can cover with 2 wards as well, one of the lane brush and one at river brush or tribrush depending on the mid's situation. 2 wards don't cover mid perfectly and lane ganks can happen if the lane opponent has CC. When Fiora harrasses the ranged champion, she overextends greatly. In the meanwhile, the ranged champion is almost never very extended - They're often at a safe distance from their turret. On the toplane you often do play against armorstackers, but those haven't been a problem. I'm beating mass armor Malphites and Nasuses all the time. On the toplane, you can deal with Orianna for instance because you can chase her down with E and hit her multiple times. This really hurts. In the midlane, she can mostly harrass you freely and you require an enormous commitment to harrass her decently. In most cases she'll quickly get to her turret anyway. Mages are commonly in mid for a reason. Fiora also isn't like Kha'Zix who can just jump onto the opponent and dunk them - She requires time. In addition, Kha'Zix and Zed for instance have good AoE and waveclear, Fiora has none. The enemy mid can just push constantly from a safe distance and she cannot do anything. Fiora doesn't utilize blue buff very well because she needs to commit so heavily when she harrasses. She gets whittled down by it easily. Players who use basic attacks against Fiora are awesome, then? Well, that's interesting. I wonder why I do outtrade all of the ones who do decide to repeatedly use basic attacks? You can be out of range for most of the Riposte cooldown pretty easily. For example, I was playing against a platinum II Kennen who kept harrassing me with basic attacks whenever I got close. After a few levels, I was at full hp and he was at 60-70%. All chat "You're harrassing yourself". | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Top preferable but the reason you want mid is 1: better roam opportunities 2: if you get shut down by a bruiser its easier to farm in mid 3: mostly easier lane matchups if you are beating malphites and nasuss then keep playing top until you dont edit i dont know what kind of junglers cna do 500 damage in just a few seconds if you E Q to them right next to your tower until later maybe when its only like half your hp | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On November 30 2013 00:11 Shikyo wrote: Players who use basic attacks against Fiora are awesome, then? Well, that's interesting. I wonder why I do outtrade all of the ones who do decide to repeatedly use basic attacks? You can be out of range for most of the Riposte cooldown pretty easily. For example, I was playing against a platinum II Kennen who kept harrassing me with basic attacks whenever I got close. After a few levels, I was at full hp and he was at 60-70%. All chat "You're harrassing yourself". It'd be better if you didn't twist stuff to accomodate your claims. Three of us spoke about using autos as harass, punish last hits, etc. and suddenly you put in our mouths that it's trading autos with her? Because obviously when you dash to Annie she's going to stand here and auto you with her pitiful AS rather than stun you, walk away till you burn your second Q and get close to her tower, then resume auto-ing and Qing you a you're retreating. On November 30 2013 00:24 Shikyo wrote: If it's Udyr or Vi or anything with CC and your lane opponent has CC as well or has whittled you down(very likely vs an AP mid), you're going to have a tough time surviving. Even Shyvana deals plenty of damage and can dive for a few turret hits. The only method where I reliably escape like that is if I Q onto them and instantly flash into turret range. If the flash isn't enough to get there, it'll be ugly. "If they have cc" -> "Shyvana" Wat. If you react early enough you won't be in range of the enemy midlaner since you've just dashed "backwards" to their jungler, if he doesn't have cc you give no fuck and gtfo. You're giving the impression that you don't read others' posts and that there's no logical connection between any two sentences of your reasonings, it doesn't help taking you seriously. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
shyvana especially cant even cc you so you just run out and take like a few ticks of W and E Q at worst | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 30 2013 00:25 Alaric wrote: It'd be better if you didn't twist stuff to accomodate your claims. Three of us spoke about using autos as harass, punish last hits, etc. and suddenly you put in our mouths that it's trading autos with her? Because obviously when you dash to Annie she's going to stand here and auto you with her pitiful AS rather than stun you, walk away till you burn your second Q and get close to her tower, then resume auto-ing and Qing you a you're retreating. It's not trading autos. I wasn't trading autos with that Kennen at all, he just took the damage off Riposte. You can perhaps punish last hits, but just with 1-2 autos that you regen quickly over time. If there's 2 ranged minions low, for example, I like to do something like Lunge on one, auto the other, lunge on a melee minion and then run away. Riposte when he autos me. What I don't do is stay constantly in range taking 5 basic attacks for no reason. It's also pretty safe to lasthit when you see an allied minion getting close to lasthit range. At least you force a decision. Fiora's basic attack damage is so high she has more leniency. I think Annie should be a problem at mid because the lane's so short, at top you can either recover the damage of the first stun(if she runs away), or use the second lunge to catch up and chase her down. I haven't faced an Annie top in forever and a half, though. BTW I would never Lunge onto an Annie who has stun stocked so I have no idea why I even talked about that. Usually what I do is wait for them to waste some spell and then go hard on them, even allining on the spot(Like if Rumble uses shield just to get some meter). | ||
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jaymik
Korea (South)425 Posts
hi cheep | ||
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 30 2013 00:34 Dusty wrote: my head hurts You can read everything in my upcoming, thorough Fiora guide. I've gotten done with runes, masteries, summoner spells and items now, at around 15 pages. | ||
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