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Baa?21248 Posts
you can go find someone and 1v1 them to practice a specific aspect of the game, why does there have to be a separate q for it? all that does is make it seem like it's a separate game altogether which is really really really dumb
On November 06 2013 02:07 SagaZ wrote:
I can see some people being good at 1v1 and laning, but bad at 5v5 cause they're stupid. Not saying silvers can beat diamonds at 1v1, but that there might be some diamond 1 5v5 players randomly dominating the 1v1 ladder.
All those "Riven main" at high elo for example.
that what i mean when i say you might ge ta few random solo q stars but you wont see any real distinct scene
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Never felt outpushed by Heimer, even with 3 turrets... but that's what maining Viktor does. And he'd win the attrition war because in a 1v1 you don't get blue buff and his turrets' HP will outscale your ability to one-shot them with a single E (and not everyone will drop them close enough to one another that I can hit several + part of the wave with a single E).
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Baa?21248 Posts
all i have to say is that you guys play against some really shitty heimers
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On November 06 2013 02:43 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
you can go find someone and 1v1 them to practice a specific aspect of the game, why does there have to be a separate q for it? all that does is make it seem like it's a separate game altogether which is really really really dumb
So you don't have to waste a friend's time with it. You might as well ask, what's the point of playing solo queue, when you can just grab 9 people and play a 5v5. Queue is there to make it easier for everyone.
Also you get to play against a variety of playstyle/champ selecs.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On November 06 2013 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 02:43 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
you can go find someone and 1v1 them to practice a specific aspect of the game, why does there have to be a separate q for it? all that does is make it seem like it's a separate game altogether which is really really really dumb So you don't have to waste a friend's time with it. You might as well ask, what's the point of playing solo queue, when you can just grab 9 people and play a 5v5. Queue is there to make it easier for everyone. Also you get to play against a variety of playstyle/champ selecs.
you mean you get to play vs rivens who will red pot all in at level 1 and 2 as if theres no jungler
heimers who will push all day buying no wards and no defensive items
etc etc etc
what are you practicing lol?
also its so much easier to find someone who is willing to do some 1v1 than to find 9 people so thats a terrible distortion of the issue at hand
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On November 06 2013 02:44 Alaric wrote:
(and not everyone will drop them close enough to one another that I can hit several + part of the wave with a single E).
Well that's kinda what I implied. But more than 9 Ahri out of 10 are utter shit too when I play against them (as in, it's not even the mechanics (can't criticise that, I don't play her so I'd be shit too) but the basic combos and decision-making that they fail at) so it's not a big change. 
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Oh lord this is one-sided
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On November 06 2013 02:35 jcarlsoniv wrote:And you're judging Heimer on 3v3 which is bruiser heaven, so your argument carries no weight. Most mages struggle unless they can kite really well or are able to do enough damage to stay relevant while building tanky.
Because this isn't common on SR now? How does this invalidate my argument? How about a more likely example: what does Heimer do when I pick Annie? I can auto his turret and q it without taking any damage from it. Get mana back from my q. Whelp, there goes nearly all his pushing power for the early levels.
Turrets do complicate last hitting. Even if you have near perfect last hitting, they're going to cause you to miss a few that you wouldn't have in their absence. Highly irrelevant on summoners rift for the most part, but when you're on a map when the first to 100 cs can win, it matters a lot more. Now if you cause your opponent to miss a significant amount of CS to tower, then this doesn't matter either. But then your opponent picks a long range ADC, doesn't miss any CS because they have dorans blades, then it matters quite a bit more.
(Especially since killing your turrets nets the more CS).
If for no other reason than that, Heimer won't be picked on the 1v1 map. Too easy for an ADC to farm up his turrets given how god awful their health is early.
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This calls for a grudge match.
Bo5 1v1 soniv vs zer0 SR heimer vs annie.
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On November 06 2013 02:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:On November 06 2013 02:43 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
you can go find someone and 1v1 them to practice a specific aspect of the game, why does there have to be a separate q for it? all that does is make it seem like it's a separate game altogether which is really really really dumb So you don't have to waste a friend's time with it. You might as well ask, what's the point of playing solo queue, when you can just grab 9 people and play a 5v5. Queue is there to make it easier for everyone. Also you get to play against a variety of playstyle/champ selecs. you mean you get to play vs rivens who will red pot all in at level 1 and 2 as if theres no jungler heimers who will push all day buying no wards and no defensive items etc etc etc what are you practicing lol? also its so much easier to find someone who is willing to do some 1v1 than to find 9 people so thats a terrible distortion of the issue at hand
I'm going to guess there are bans in the queue.
and learning to play against that still is a good thing, works on shit like reaction timing, early game power spikes, etc etc. all transitions that can help you in early game 5's.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On November 06 2013 02:51 xes wrote:
This calls for a grudge match.
Bo5 1v1 soniv vs zer0 SR heimer vs annie.
bo5
1v1
no bans
final destination
fox only
wait what
pretty sure annie is never gonna get to leave her tower 1v1ing a heimer lol
On November 06 2013 02:55 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 02:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On November 06 2013 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:On November 06 2013 02:43 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
you can go find someone and 1v1 them to practice a specific aspect of the game, why does there have to be a separate q for it? all that does is make it seem like it's a separate game altogether which is really really really dumb So you don't have to waste a friend's time with it. You might as well ask, what's the point of playing solo queue, when you can just grab 9 people and play a 5v5. Queue is there to make it easier for everyone. Also you get to play against a variety of playstyle/champ selecs. you mean you get to play vs rivens who will red pot all in at level 1 and 2 as if theres no jungler heimers who will push all day buying no wards and no defensive items etc etc etc what are you practicing lol? also its so much easier to find someone who is willing to do some 1v1 than to find 9 people so thats a terrible distortion of the issue at hand I'm going to guess there are bans in the queue. and learning to play against that still is a good thing, works on shit like reaction timing, early game power spikes, etc etc. all transitions that can help you in early game 5's.
again nothing you said justified a separate queue when you can grab a buddy and do the same thing in a custom
On November 06 2013 02:58 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 01:57 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On November 06 2013 01:50 jcarlsoniv wrote:On November 06 2013 01:19 Osmoses wrote:
I have this creeping feeling that 1vs1 ranked is going to be most played of all gamemodes from launch into infinity. Seeing as it potentially could have 5 times the # of games that a 5v5 would have, I agree by a sheer number standpoint, lol. Also, these games will be much faster. On November 06 2013 01:48 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On November 06 2013 01:19 Ketara wrote:
I'm not even sure I want to have this argument, sigh. lol i dislike the inclusion of a 1v1 and 2v2 queue tbh its gonna become a breeding ground for toxicity also i think its dumb to compete with summoner's rift - aram dominion 3v3 doesnt really compete directly with 5v5 but i feel like 1v1 and 2v2 will take away a lot of players from 5v5... ...Why does this matter. Like...at all? 1v1s and 2v2s toxic? Then don't play them? And who cares if it pulls players away from 5v5s? It may even increase the quality of 5v5s (however slightly) because the people queueing up will be the ones who really are invested in the 5v5 team game as opposed to the lone wolves who always want "what the hell, can't 1v1 me noob?" because despite all the people spamming 1v1 me noob, everyone understands, at some level, that its not a 1v1 game, so everyone knows to laugh off the idiots who spam that by introducing a 1v1 queue it legitimizes those complaints, and introduces the justification that 1v1 and 5v5 require different skillsets and you can be a "1v1 player" and do stupid shit in 5v5 and it will be toxic as fuck can you just imagine someone feeding in a 5v5 game and then saying "lol i own u in 1v1 im challenger 1v1" or some shit riot should not have gone down this path That is an amazing argument. I can't believe people are letting it go right by, it's so bad. The people being mean to cheep are gonna use this as ammunition - call the engineers, it's time to shut this queue down.
what
was that english
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On November 06 2013 01:57 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 01:50 jcarlsoniv wrote:On November 06 2013 01:19 Osmoses wrote:
I have this creeping feeling that 1vs1 ranked is going to be most played of all gamemodes from launch into infinity. Seeing as it potentially could have 5 times the # of games that a 5v5 would have, I agree by a sheer number standpoint, lol. Also, these games will be much faster. On November 06 2013 01:48 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On November 06 2013 01:19 Ketara wrote:
I'm not even sure I want to have this argument, sigh. lol i dislike the inclusion of a 1v1 and 2v2 queue tbh its gonna become a breeding ground for toxicity also i think its dumb to compete with summoner's rift - aram dominion 3v3 doesnt really compete directly with 5v5 but i feel like 1v1 and 2v2 will take away a lot of players from 5v5... ...Why does this matter. Like...at all? 1v1s and 2v2s toxic? Then don't play them? And who cares if it pulls players away from 5v5s? It may even increase the quality of 5v5s (however slightly) because the people queueing up will be the ones who really are invested in the 5v5 team game as opposed to the lone wolves who always want "what the hell, can't 1v1 me noob?" because despite all the people spamming 1v1 me noob, everyone understands, at some level, that its not a 1v1 game, so everyone knows to laugh off the idiots who spam that by introducing a 1v1 queue it legitimizes those complaints, and introduces the justification that 1v1 and 5v5 require different skillsets and you can be a "1v1 player" and do stupid shit in 5v5 and it will be toxic as fuck can you just imagine someone feeding in a 5v5 game and then saying "lol i own u in 1v1 im challenger 1v1" or some shit riot should not have gone down this path
That is an amazing argument. I can't believe people are letting it go right by, it's so bad. The people being mean to cheep are gonna use this as ammunition? Call the engineers, it's time to shut the queue down.
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On November 06 2013 02:49 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 02:35 jcarlsoniv wrote:And you're judging Heimer on 3v3 which is bruiser heaven, so your argument carries no weight. Most mages struggle unless they can kite really well or are able to do enough damage to stay relevant while building tanky. Because this isn't common on SR now? How does this invalidate my argument? How about a more likely example: what does Heimer do when I pick Annie? I can auto his turret and q it without taking any damage from it. Get mana back from my q. Whelp, there goes nearly all his pushing power for the early levels. Turrets do complicate last hitting. Even if you have near perfect last hitting, they're going to cause you to miss a few that you wouldn't have in their absence. Highly irrelevant on summoners rift for the most part, but when you're on a map when the first to 100 cs can win, it matters a lot more. Now if you cause your opponent to miss a significant amount of CS to tower, then this doesn't matter either. But then your opponent picks a long range ADC, doesn't miss any CS because they have dorans blades, then it matters quite a bit more. (Especially since killing your turrets nets the more CS). If for no other reason than that, Heimer won't be picked on the 1v1 map. Too easy for an ADC to farm up his turrets given how god awful their health is early.
I'm not necessarily advocating Heimer for being top tier in 1v1 queue.
I'm more attacking your hate on new heimer because it's incredibly unfounded.
I personally have not played the Heimer vs Annie matchup from either side. The only matchup I've struggled with thus far was Brand, and I was playing incredibly poorly that game, so I don't have legit evidence.
I have had far more success with Heimer maxing Q than W. If all the Heimers you're facing are maxing W, and you're arguing that his push potential is shit, then you have a shit argument.
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On November 06 2013 01:42 SagaZ wrote:
for 21 points:
Offense tree, Ap or AD
Defense tree is jungling or toplaning with the hp regen and laning stats
Utility is support, no1's going to use the %mana
For 9 points:
Offense sucks
Defense is jungling or side laning
Utility is jungling or mid lane
There is no attractive mastery point other than the 21 and 9 key points, and it makes the masterys boring imo. At least last season had the block that required you to make choices, and the penetrations also required choices.
I'll edit by saying that there is 1 point I find interesting: runic shield.
You're thinking about this in terms of 21 points in a main tree and 9 points in the secondary tree.
It seems pretty clear that they've purposefully tried to shake up this mechanic. The 21 and 9 points are basically weaker across the board, and the other points are in general stronger across the board.
For offense, 22 points in offense looks very strong. 22/8/0 or 22/0/8 seems just as reasonable as 21/9/0 or 21/0/9. Going higher than that also seems stronger, 24/6, 25/5 or 26/4 also all look quite good.
For defense, 0/27/3 or 0/28/2 look very good for pure tank chars, while 9/21 or like 0/22/8 also still look strong.
Tier 1 in defense looks like it will differ wildly depending on the lane you're in. In a lot of lanes Recovery is going to be better than Block, and in a lot of lanes Block is going to be better than Recovery. Some champions will love Enchanted Armor and some won't. Juggernaut and Oppression will both be good on different champions. So depending on who you are and what lane you're in your 6-9 points in defense will vary a lot. This means changing your mastery page in every game you play just got a lot more important.
Going deep into utility looks more attractive than it used to, which means you probably won't see as many supports going high into offense or defense.
Basically, cookie cutter 21 in one tree 9 in another tree mastery pages are out the window. Depending on what champion you are and who your lane opponent is, all sorts of new things are going to be possible.
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Brand? Shouldn't you be struggling much more versus long range clear champs, like TF, Lux, post-6 Anivia, Syndra, etc. compared to Brand who needs to get within 625 range to AoE-nuke the wave? Or was it because he could abuse your turrets for his ult if you fought him away from creeps?
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1st timed Heimer a couple games yesterday and did surprisingly damn well---it may be a factor of people forgetting what to do about him though. I also get the feeling that him being ganked is less an 'Welp, shit' thing because especially if you max turrets, the guy ganking you takes a SHIT ton of damage. If you have ult up and can triplestun you're basically good as well
Anyway I demand grudgematch---there are way too few of these in TL LoL.
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On November 06 2013 03:08 Alaric wrote:
Brand? Shouldn't you be struggling much more versus long range clear champs, like TF, Lux, post-6 Anivia, Syndra, etc. compared to Brand who needs to get within 625 range to AoE-nuke the wave? Or was it because he could abuse your turrets for his ult if you fought him away from creeps?
He's the only one I've had trouble with thus far, I haven't had too many games with heim yet. Played against TF last night and it really wasn't that bad. TF's long range clear isn't that strong before 6, which is when heim is weakest. I can definitely see Anivia being a pain in the ass.
And for that Brand game, yeah his ult could take advantage of my turrets. And as I said, I played poorly that game, he was ahead of me mid game and was able to kill my turrets real fast. There was no way at all for me to abuse his range.
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Heimer is a god atm against melee champs with Q max + flash/barrier, ganking him is just asking to get double kill'd. However good luck against nidalee who will 1 shot your turrets with max range spears.
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Also, the masteries in general look quite a bit stronger than the older masteries, meaning peoples level 1 stats just went up a good amount.
An AP champ expected to have about 20 AP from runes/masteries at level 1, now can expect to have close to 30, as well as more % bonus damage and more physical damage.
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On November 06 2013 03:06 jcarlsoniv wrote:I'm not necessarily advocating Heimer for being top tier in 1v1 queue.
I'm more attacking your hate on new heimer because it's incredibly unfounded.
I have had far more success with Heimer maxing Q than W. If all the Heimers you're facing are maxing W, and you're arguing that his push potential is shit, then you have a shit argument.
I never said Heimer should max w first now. I was just throwing that out to cover all my bases.
Here's the problem with Heimer (and why in his current iteration, I do not think he will ever be played competitively- at least until season 4 when a support can tons of free gold, which throws a Heimdinger wrench into the equation). It is better to max turrets first. Agreed? With this in mind, what is the difference between Faker and a wood 7 Heimdinger before level 6? Well, Faker might hit all his rockets and his stun, but pre-6 the turrets are doing ~90% of the work.
Therefore, there is a marginal difference between the two. Now, assume I'm a smart player for a second (this is a stretch, but humor me) and realize this fact. Now what can I do to Heimdinger if I can kill his turrets? Well, pretty much whatever the hell I want to. And even if I can't kill his turrets, how does he kill me? It takes a major mistake on my part to be dumb enough to walk into a turret nest, sit in them for a while, and then maybe he can kill me.
If they change his turret health then it won't be this simple, but that's essentially how I view things presently. I have to be a complete idiot for Heimer to even get close to killing me early. Therefore I can do really "idiotic" aggressive things and kill him early.
Am I oversimplifying things? Maybe. But I could just as easily say no one has a clue how weak Heimer is now early because they're used to turrets having like 300 health and doing a ton of damage early on top of the undodgeable poke from rockets if you're in range.
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EPT
